Talk:Northern Cyprus/Archive 18

Archive 15

Archive 16

Archive 17

Archive 18

Archive 19

Cyprus Historical population

The following have the same format with the table in the article:

Population of Cyprus according to ethnic group 1777–1960

Ethnic group	census 17771		census 17902		census 17933		census 18004
	Number	%	Number	%	Number	%	Number	%
Greeks	37,000	44.0	47,500	41.5	46,392	39.3	30,524	31.3
Turks	47,000	56.0	67,000	58.5	67,000	58.8	67,000	68.7
Armenians
Maronites
Others					4,608	3.9
Total	84,000		114,500		118,000		97,524
1 Source: [http://]. 2 Source: [http://]. 3 Source: [http://]. 4 Source: [http://].

Population of Cyprus according to ethnicity (1881–1960)

Ethnic group	1881 census		1891 census		1901 census		1911 census		1921 census		1931 census		1946 census		1960 census
	Number	%	Number	%	Number	%	Number	%	Number	%	Number	%	Number	%	Number	%
Greeks	137,631	73.9	158,585	75.8	182,739	77.1	214,480	78.2	244,887	78.8	276,572	79.5	361,199	80.2	442,363	77.1
Turks	45,458	24.4	47,926	22.9	51,309	21.6	56,428	20.6	61,339	19.7	64,238	18.5	80,548	17.9	104,333	18.2
Armenians	174	0.1	280	0.1	517	0.2	558	0.2	1,197	0.4	3,377	1	3,686	0.8	3,630
Maronites	830	0.4	1,131	0.5	1,130	0.5	1,073		1,350		1,704		2,083		2,752
Others	1,738	0.9	1.364	0.7	1,327	0.6	1,569		1,942		2,068		2,598		20,488
Total	186,173		209,286		237,022		274,108		310,715		347,959		450,114		573,566

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.110.137.214 (talk • contribs) 22:40, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

References

Minority languages in Cyprus

I would like to know the opinion of the community about the insertion of the minority languages in the country template. I don`t think that we can compare, as it does the ip, the Turkish language in Germany, which is spoken by immigrants, with the Greek language in Karpas, which is spoken by the indigenous population. In the article about Italy in template is mentioned ladin of South Tyrol, which in proportion is spoken less than Greek in North Cyprus. Alex2006 (talk) 18:16, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

The 'vernaculars' field has been in use in Cyprus for quite some time without protest. It is meant to list the autochthonous languages without recognition in the country. Alakzi (talk) 18:28, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

This field has been on this article for only a week, too little to be considered as the stable version... Alex2006 (talk) 10:37, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes? I was simply pointing at how it's been used elsewhere. Alakzi (talk) 11:01, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

• I would say that while Cypriot Turkish could be linked as a vernacular, Greek and Arabic do not merit inclusion in the infobox. In the Republic of Cyprus, Armenians and Maronites are recognized minorities, which would justify the inclusion of their languages in the infobox to some extent, but in Northern Cyprus, these communities have almost negligible population (not more than 1000 totally as far as I know) and no official status. Indigenous languages which have (much) higher percentages of speakers in the population, such as Kurdish in Turkey, Occitan in France, Gagauz in Moldova and so forth are not included in their respective country articles. --GGT (talk) 12:47, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
  • I've explained that the field is not used for languages with official recognition; it is meant to list autochthonous languages in the territory of the country, provided that some speakers remain—whatever their numbers. A precedent that we cannot justify is worth nought. Obviously it'd be impractical to do for large countries like Italy, where tens of languages are (or were) spoken. Alakzi (talk) 16:07, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

I see your point, but I do not see how having the parameter available would necessitate its usage. The infobox is usually used to sum up very basic information and indicators about the country, like a table summing up basic facts at the back of an atlas in my perception. To back up with WP:IBX, "to summarize key facts that appear in the article. The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance." I would say that these vernaculars, while certainly relevant for the article and a part of the national heritage, are not of key importance for Northern Cyprus and therefore do not merit inclusion at the expense of lengthening it, compromising conciseness), with the possible notable exception of Cypriot Turkish. But then again, I would say that we could do without that as well, as it is already in the infobox. --GGT (talk) 18:20, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Well, it does not necessitate its usage. I'm doubtful that this field is necessary. When it was first inserted by an IP, it only listed Greek. It was later repeatedly removed by another IP, so I thought I'd list all other indigenous languages as a compromise. Alakzi (talk) 19:08, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Speculative press reports

@GGT: could you explain what you mean with 'despite ...'? 'Such reports have never been scientifically or statistically scrutinized, despite opportunities of opposition parties, which has resulted in a "war of numbers".' Alakzi (talk) 19:37, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

I have attempted to do so, how is it now? --GGT (talk) 19:54, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Makes sense now, thanks. Will you also edit the next paragraph, where it's claimed that Turkish settlers outnumber Turkish Cypriots? Alakzi (talk) 20:14, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

The North is a country

Alakzi said: "Upon further inspection, disputed territories do not use any of the country categories, so I'm removing all of them" and requested us discussing here. Please see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Countries_in_Europe (Kosovo is listed here). It seems that either Kosovo is not disputed acc. to Alakzi or he missed Kosovo during his inspection. Also, I remember someone mentioned on this issue in the Talk page very recently.Ayka3b (talk) 19:54, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

GDP

At wikipedia GDP data are given in U.S. dollars, not in national currency. This allows comparisons, and should not be changed. Alex2006 (talk) 14:57, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

I second the comment above. The GDP per capita in US dollars can be calculated from the data that the State Planning Organization gives with a simple calculation that does not constitute synthesis, but this does not hold true for the GDP itself and I am currently trying to access printed sources from the organization that may have the value in dollars. Please also note that the Turkish Lira sign may not be displayed on every computer and it is better to use a template to allow universal accessibility. --GGT (talk) 16:58, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

De facto handling of Northern Cyprus as a separate country

"While unrecognized internationally except by Turkey, the international community has taken a pragmatic approach administratively to the division of the island" can be loaded to the introductory part.
Reference:
Andrew Grossman, 2015, Global Law for Justice, New York University, "Finding the Law - the Micro-States and Small Jurisdictions of Europe: Andorra, Cyprus, Northern Cyprus, Iceland, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Malta, Monaco, Montenegro, San Marino, Vatican State; UK European dependencies: Channel Islands, Gibraltar, Isle of Man; Faroe Islands and Greenland"
http://www.nyulawglobal.org/globalex/Microstates.htm Ayka3b (talk) 21:09, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

What does that mean, "pragmatic"? As far as I can tell, nothing. Unrecognized means unrecognized. A puppet state is a puppet state. Athenean (talk) 21:22, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

1. Parliamentary Assembly of European Council (PACE) elects Greek Cypriot members of PACE from the Assembly of Rep. of Cyprus whereas it elects Turkish Cypriot members of PACE from the Assembly of Northern Cyprus (though PACE does not recognize NC). This is only one example of what "pragmatic" means. Also, there are countless international organizations to which Northern Cyprus is a member. Hence, the introductory part should be changed by taking into account this reality. The suggestion can be:

Northern Cyprus is considered by the international community to be part of the Republic of Cyprus whereas with varying pragmatic approaches.

Anyway, a native speaker can better design the introductory part. I revealed only the deficiency in the introductory. It is up to linguistic experts to codify the introductory: I am no such.Ayka3b (talk) 21:46, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

None of those international organizations are of any significance. Northern Cyprus is barred from all significant international organizations. Your desired additions are WP:UNDUE and WP:POV and won't be added to the lead or anywhere. Athenean (talk) 23:33, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

International Olympics Committee (IOC) requires "International Recognition" as a prerequisite to be a member. Kosovo is not a member of United Nations (UN). But, Kosovo became a member of IOC. In this context, regarding an international organization as significant may change from person to person. UN may definitely be regarded as significant for many, but, it is not significant according to IOC, hence, the above case (see the 4. below as well). Also, there are many international organizations that many qualify as significant. Organization of Islamic Conference (OIC) is one such. NC is a member of OIC. The ministers of OIC member countries came to OIC meetings held in NC. Becoming an observer member or full member does not change the reality. If a country is considered as bad, it cannot even be an observer member. Also, European Court of Human Rights is the most significant legal organization in Europe, and ECtHR accepts the laws of Northern Cyprus just as USA's Federal Court qualifies NC as democratic country. Ayka3b (talk) 09:26, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

I visited Northern Cyprus several times in the last years. 99% of the cases, near the flag of Northern Cyprus is waving the Flag of Turkey. I think that this explains all. Alex2006 (talk) 09:08, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

It seems you did not pass to the (south, Rep. of) Cyprus. 99% of the cases, near the flag of Cyprus is waving the flag of Greece. Even, the national anthem of Cyprus is that of Greece. The national days and national holidays of Cyprus is the same as those of Greece. That is to say, the facts you stated does explain nothing in this context.Ayka3b (talk) 09:19, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

In Nicosia (the only part of the Republic of Cyprus that I visited, here you are right) I never saw a Greek flag, and I did not see bases of the Greek army there either. In Northern Cyprus there is a base of the Turkish army every other kilometer. You can call NC puppet state, protectorate, occupied state, or as you want, but the substance does not change. Alex2006 (talk) 09:36, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

See Hellenic Force in Cyprus (Army of Greece) to find that it placed 950 soldiers based on 1960 agreement to the island, illegally expanded to 20,000 soldiers in 1970s, still orders to the soldiers of Cyprus, etc.

Mund (Dec, 2013, University of Pennsylvania): "Breakaway States: Understanding When The International Community Recognizes The Legitimacy of Separatist States": "TRNC has firmly established itself as an independent actor in the international community." besides "1","2","3","4" above and below. Ayka3b (talk) 13:01, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

2. All the laws of Northern Cyprus are accepted in Europe (i.e., European Court of Human Rights): ECtHR (2010): "Notwithstanding the lack of international recognition of the regime in the northern area, a de facto recognition of its acts may be rendered necessary for practical purposes. Thus, the adoption by the authorities of the 'TRNC' of civil, administrative or criminal law measures, and their application or enforcement within that territory, may be regarded as having a legal basis in domestic law for the purposes of the Convention". Source: http://hudoc.echr.coe.int/sites/eng/Pages/search.aspx#{"fulltext":["Pavlides"],"documentcollectionid2":["CASELAW"],"itemid":["001-122907"]}

3. United States of America's (USA) Federal Court (13.10.2014): "Although the United States does not recognize it as a state, the TRNC purportedly operates as a democratic republic with a president, prime minister, legislature and judiciary... TRNC is not vulnerable to a lawsuit in Washington". Source: http://www.courthousenews.com/2014/10/13/72392.htm

Greek Cypriots lost all of the cases that they filed against Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus without any exception:

Greek Cypriot Toumazou lost against defendant Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (13.10.2014): 1, 2 3

Latchford lost against defendant Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (31.10.2014): 1 2

Greek Cypriot Fiouris and the other 96 Greek Cypriots lost against defendant Turkish Cypriot Community (31.10.2014): 1 2

Greek Cypriot Toumazou lost against defendant Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus in USA's Court of Appeals (2014): (in page 10) (in page 17)

4. Rep. of Cyprus and Northern Cyprus started to face each other in international matches: In 2010 European Championship, C and NC matched and played with each other as totally two different countries. Since Kosovo became a member of IOC, the 85 countries that do not recognize it has no chance of not playing with Kosovo in 2016 Rio Olypiads. Since Kosovo is a member of FIBA (International Basketball Association), the ones (Spain, Greece, Russia, etc.) has no chance of not playing with Kosovo in European/World Championships. If they do not match with Kosovo, they are punished by being forced to money to the organizations. "The thing that punishes those when do not match and play" is International Community. "The thing that punishes Turkey when do not match and play with Cyprus" is International Community. "The thing that punishes Cyprus when do not match and play with Northern Cyprus" is International Community in the case of international organizations to which NC is a member.

I gave extra examples for the "pragmatic" approach above. The introductory part of NC article, though, may be regarded as true to some extent, it is false to regard it as absolute true. That is to say, it reflected and qualified the situation better for last century, but in the last decade, it is turning to be more and more obsolete, and does not reflect the real situation thoroughly and without any deficiency. See the above examples: PACE (since 2004), ECtHR (since 2010), USA's Federal Court (since 2014), Northern Cyprus-Cyprus international matches (since 2010), etc. etc. All in all, "Northern Cyprus is considered by the international community to be part of the Republic of Cyprus" became far from reflecting the true picture enough for the last decade.Ayka3b (talk) 09:14, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Nobody is interested in your original research] and synthesis. Come back when "Northern Cyprus" has a seat at the UN (Hint: Don't hold your breath). Athenean (talk) 20:59, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

This is first time I hear about existance of Northern Cyprus. I always heard only about just Cyprus. Despite your material, I'd personally NOT include it as country, as the only time I heard about Northern Cyprus is, well Wikipedia. However, this might change if this defacto status will continue for enough long time (like a decade?) - see China/Taiwan and UN change in politics. 84.242.71.76 (talk) 06:16, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Northern Cyprus is not considered or called a country in mainstream literature, news and academia; original research and some cherry-picked sources will not change that. Please note that the established practice is not to include unrecognized states in the categories for articles anyway (Kosovo is a bit of an exception due its widespread recognition and ties with outside world); this also applies for Abkhazia, Somaliland etc. It is not really the UN seat that matters (this is not the official website of the UN after all) but the established use in literature. --GGT (talk) 16:25, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Political entities of Turkish Cypriots before 1974

There were many political entities in NC before the "Autonomous Turkish Cypriot Administration" of 1974: 1st: "General Committee" 1964 2nd: "Turkish Cypriot Provisional Administration" 1967.)
PRIO; General Committee of Turkish Cypriots January 1964

Tripod; General Committee
Legal Aspects of the Cyprus Problem: Annan Plan And EU Accession; Frank Hoffmeister: "..a General Committee administrting life in Turkish Cypriot controlled areas
Patrick, intercommunal conflict; By the Spring of 1964, this administration had been reorganized. In the Turk-Cypriot quarter of Nicosia a 'General Committee' was formed,...
The European Union and the Cyprus Conflict: Modern Conflict, Postmodern Union; Thomas Diez; "...set up their own POLITICAL structures. Initially they set up what became known as a General Committee in 1964".
The Europeanisation of Contested Statehood: The EU in northern Cyprus; Dr George Kyris; "...developed their own administrative structures. At first,a "General Committee" was formed"
The Making of Informal States: Statebuilding in Northern Cyprus and ...; Daria Isachenko; "..In spring 1964, the General Committee..was set up as a governing body..."

27 December 1967 Turkish Cypriot Provisional Administration
In 1967, Turkish Cypriot Provisional Administration was found. 88.224.212.20 (talk) 13:32, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

• From the article: The invasion led to the formation of the first political entity in Northern Cyprus in August 1974, the Autonomous Turkish Cypriot Administration.
  

Since NC is founded in 1983, a mentioning like "first political entity in Northern Cyprus in August 1974" is wrong before all!
Second, the User Alakzi reverted with pretext that "NC wasn't demarcated before 1974". "demarcate" means "To set the boundaries of...". There were several boundaries set up before 1974: Green Line drawn by the Britishes in 1963 to separate N Nicosia and S Nicosia for TC and GC respectively; TC enclaves have rough boundaries before 1974 as well.88.224.212.20 (talk) 13:58, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

"Northern Cyprus" that we are talking about came into existence on 16 August 1974. A provisional administration did indeed exist previously - you are more than welcome to create an article for it. The point here is that, this was the first administration that was founded in Northern Cyprus as Northern Cyprus. North Nicosia did exist in 1964, Northern Cyprus did not. The two are entirely different and TC enclaves were spread all across the island, of which I reckon that you are aware. The provisional administration is a preceding entity, no doubts about that, but so is the Republic of Cyprus, which was another political entity that administered today's Northern Cyprus. However, I understand how this can be misconstrued, and will slightly change the wording to make the point clearer. --GGT (talk) 14:23, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

"Northern Cyprus" (The title of the article) came into existence in 1983. Any such reference (i.e. "Northern Cyprus") before 1983 is wrong. There is a difference btw. "northern part of Cyprus"/"northern Cyprus" and "Northern Cyprus".

Also, Turkish Cypriots have completely separate and independent entities before 1974: "1964 General Committee" over N. Nicosia and Turkish enclaves. "1967 TC Provisional Administration" over nearly the same areas as before. Hence, saying the ""invasion" led "Autonomous TC Administration" is false because: 1: TCs declared (completely separate, independent) political entities before 1974 as well (see above citations). 2: There were areas in the hands of TCs before the 1974 war. So, ATCA was founded in the TC already administred enclaves and areas besides the areas captured in 1974. The above citations referring self administrating/governing political entities reflects the history truly88.226.73.166 (talk) 14:54, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Improvement still wrong

Alakzi: "The invasion led to the formation of the first political entity in Northern Cyprus in August 1974, the Autonomous Turkish Cypriot Administration."
GGT: "The invasion led to the formation of the first sovereign administrative body of Northern Cyprus in August 1974, the Autonomous Turkish Cypriot Administration".
"1964 General Committee" and "1967 TC Provisional Administration" were also all sovereign, political entity, and administrative body.
The following is true reflection of the case isolated from any POV:

After the events and hostilities of 1974, the Autonomous Turkish Cypriot Administration was founded in August 1974.

Note that Autonomous TC Administration was founded after both coup d'etat and invasion. Mentioning only the invasion is blatant POV. The events and hostilities (1. coup d'etat 2. invasion) both led Autonomous TC Administration. ATCA was founded after a big event (1st part: Coup 2nd part: invasion). The referring the ATCA was led by only the 2nd and breaking the link of the big event is deceptive. Notice how UN refers the things of 1974 in the above link.88.224.78.222 (talk) 20:13, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

UN packages the things in July-August 1974 (1: Coup d'etat 2. Invasion) into events and/or hostilities of 1974. Mentioning only the 2nd part and loading all evil to Turks is blatantly deceptive way of reflecting the history.88.224.78.222 (talk) 20:22, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

US Department of State: In a two-stage offensive, Turkish troops took control of 38% of the island. Many Greek Cypriots fled south while many Turkish Cypriots fled north. Since then, the southern part of the country has been under the control of the Government of Cyprus and the northern part under an autonomous Turkish-Cypriot administration supported by the presence of Turkish troops.

General Community (1964-1967), Provisional Turkish Cypriot Administration (1967-1974), Autonomous Turkish Cypriot Administration (1974-1975), Turkish Federated State of Cyprus (1975-1983), TRNC (1983-..).212.174.38.3 (talk) 08:41, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Makarios' accusation towards Greek regime just before the coup

• James Edward Miller, "The United States and the Making of Modern Greece: History and Power, 1950-1974", 2009, p.188
• Benjamin Lieberman, "Terrible Fate: Ethnic Cleansing in the Making of Modern Europe", 2006, p.266
• Nations Encyclpedia "...On 2 July 1974, Makarios accused the Greek government of seeking his overthrow and called for the immediate withdrawal of 650 Greek officers in the Cypriot National Guard..."
• To sum up: Google search of "Makarios "accused Greece" Government "army of occupation"" reveals reliable sources.88.227.130.154 (talk) 18:31, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

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UN Resolutions

Article currently says "Several United Nations Security Council resolutions have called on the Turkish forces to withdraw." and that the Turkish Army's presence "has been denounced in several United Nations Security Council resolutions."

The relevant items seem to be these:

Resolution 353

4. Requests the withdrawal without delay from the Republic of Cyprus of foreign military personnel present otherwise than under the authority of international agreements, including those whose withdrawal was requested by the President of the Republic of Cyprus, Archbishop Makarios, in his letter of 2 July 1974,

Resolution 360

2. Urges the parties to comply with all the provisions of previous resolutions of the Security Council, including those concerning the withdrawal without delay from the Republic of Cyprus of foreign military personnel present otherwise than under the authority of international agreements;

The foreign military forces referred to on 2 July 1974 were Greek. Makarios_III

"In a second letter on July 2, 1974 he demanded the withdrawal of all Greek officers in the island by July 20, 1974."

From 1974_Cypriot_coup_d'état#Aftermath:

"In response to the coup, on 20 July 1974 Turkey invaded the island claiming that the action was compliant with the 1960 Treaty of Guarantee . . ."

It does not appear that UN Security Council resolutions referred specifically to Turkish military forces. In certain cases, their presence could be considered a violation of the treaty; the UN did not specifically conclude that this was the case. This article, as written, is therefore inaccurate. 2601:600:8500:5B1:B4AA:BB07:C33F:D816 (talk) 11:08, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

I agree. Your analysis is completely correct.Woodgridge (talk) 12:47, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

Categories

As this article is about a state and republic, I wanted to add the "Republic" and "modern state" categories. The user User:Macedonian, who is clearly biased and unneutral about the country itself (see his page), is reverting it constantly without reason. Neutral moderators should please watch this page. Akocsg (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 20:06, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

A simple view on article's history can tell who is biased, pushing a nationalist POV. Next time please consider WP:NPA... Macedonian, a Greek (talk) 16:17, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

I would support adding both Category:Republics and Category:Modern Turkic states (as proposed by Akocsg). Other partially recognised entities are included in those categories and their subcategories (e.g. Taiwan and Crimean People's Republic, respectively), and Northern Cyprus is already included in the corresponding articles List of republics and List of Turkic states. I'm sure there are plenty of neutral sources that would describe Northern Cyprus as such. This doesn't constitute a violation of WP:NPOV – the reason Northern Cyprus is commonly included in lists and categories of countries on Wikipedia is to be maximally informative to the reader, not because we're definitively stating that it is a country. IgnorantArmies (talk) 16:54, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Taiwan is recognized by 22 countries and the Crimean People's Republic refers to a political entity existed from December 1917 to January 1918, whereas Northern Cyprus is recognized only by it's occupier, Turkey, while international community and the United Nations recognizes it as territory of the Republic of Cyprus under Turkish occupation. Can Northern Cyprus be considered a sovereign state? Does it have certain and clear diplomatic relations with other sovereign states? We need more opinions here. Macedonian, a Greek (talk) 16:49, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

I agree with Macedonian: Northern Cyprus, as everyone visiting it can notice, is a puppet state fully dependent on Turkey, politically, diplomatically and, last but not least, economically. Moreover, the country is occupied by the Turkish army (one can see everywhere the "national" flag waving together with the Turkish one), and a large part of today's population is composed with Turks and Kurds immigrated (or deported) from Anatolia. All this is hardly compatible with the definition of a sovereign state, more with a protectorate (or a colony). Alex2006 (talk) 17:24, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

North Cyprus founded 28 June 1981

North Cyprus was founded 28 June 1981 General elections were held in Northern Cyprus on 28 June 1981.[1] Rauf Denktaş was re-elected President, whilst his National Unity Party remained the largest party in the National Council, although it lost its majority. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.29.112.141 (talk) 18:05, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

Founded

The Turkish Federated State of Cyprus was the name of a state on the region of Northern Cyprus declared in 1975 and existing until 1983, that was not recognized by the international community. Wikipedia — Preceding Jivebop comment added by Jivebop (talk • contribs) 11:28, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, how do you know this? And please sign your posts (4x~). Britmax (talk) 13:09, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

north cyprus proclaimed 20 July 1974 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jivebop (talk • contribs) 08:23, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Enough with this nonsense! According to the given source (Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus): On 15 November 1983, Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (TRNC) was proclaimed. At the same time, the founding parliament of the TRNC unanimously passed the Declaration of Independence which emphasized that... Macedonian, a Greek (talk) 08:48, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Adding "disputed territory" in the lede

Following agreement gained on Talk:Kosovo, i am proposing here addition of the term "disputed territory" in the article lede. First of all, Northern Cyprus is a territory, and that territory is claimed by two different conflicting political entities. One is Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, and other is Republic of Cyprus. So, this article is about the territory of Northern Cyprus, with its history, geography and demographics, while covering both political entities, first one more. So, it is necessary to add that Northern Cyprus is a disputed territory (per NPOV) and then self-declared state, as the first description, disputed territory is older and more comprehending then just said that it is a state. Its recognised only by one state, its not UN member, its very unbalansed to say that it is a state, as it is a state only de facto. De jure is everything else. --Ąnαșταη (ταlκ) 19:01, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

A correct display of the Northern Cypriot official POV would be to say it is a "sovereign state" or some such formulation. We do not do so, per the balance argument you put forward. That is the entire reason for the "self-declared" adjective, to which "disputed" is redundant. CMD (talk) 22:59, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

I concur with Chipmunkdavis. To put what Anastan said in other words, the NPOV position is that Northern Cyprus is not a sovereign state according to the constitutive theory, but is one according to the declarative theory. The current lead gets that across perfectly well, "self-declared" is a very concise way of indicating the dispute and its nature, "disputed territory" is simply redundant and would IMHO actually give undue weight to the constitutive theory. I also like the current first sentence because it implies that Northern Cyprus has no existence apart from self-declared statehood i.e. the Cyprus dispute, Northern Cyprus is not a territory that pre-existed, unlike Kosovo or Abkhazia. I can't see how "disputed territory" is more comprehensive. And to further support Chipmunkdavis' statement, see this photo, which clearly illustrates the official Turkish Cypriot position. --GGT (talk) 11:23, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

I think it's amazing that on this page, it's abundantly clear that Northern Cyprus is considered occupied. On other wikipedia pages about other occupied places, it doesn't say "considered occupied", it says "occupied". There needs to be consistency.BMGRAHAM (talk) 16:46, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

Abkhazia infobox RfC

Due to a similarity in topics, editors here are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Abkhazia#RfC on Infobox. CMD (talk) 13:06, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

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Help Me

Please could someone help fix the reliable source — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.24.176.141 (talk) 12:54, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Looking at your edit history and talk page, why should anyone do that? Britmax (talk) 17:38, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

semi protected

Not done: requests for increases to the page protection level should be made at Wikipedia:Requests for page protection. Cannolis (talk) 23:28, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

help me

It's Turkish Republic of northern Cyprus not northern Cyprus

If you want to change the page name - use the procedure at Wikipedia:Requested_moves#Requesting_a_single_page_move Ronhjones  ^(Talk) 01:28, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Do read Talk:Northern_Cyprus/Archive_10#Name_issue first Ronhjones  ^(Talk) 01:30, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 16 February 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: (non-admin closure) Speedy Close per COMMNNAME, the lack of a serious proposal, and that the filer is quite obviously a sock puppet. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 14:39, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

---

Northern Cyprus → ? – It's officially called Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus not Northern Cyprus. Do not sign this. 92.28.243.160 (talk) 13:07, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose and Snow close "Northern Cyprus" is overwhelmingly the WP:COMMONNAME. The official name is mentioned (and bolded) in the very first line, plus is the heading of the infobox. Could not be better. --T*U (talk) 13:49, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

By the way, the proposing editor is one of many, many, many IP socks starting with "94.24", "92.28" or "92.29" of indeffed editor Shingling334 (talk · contribs), see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Shingling334. --T*U (talk) 13:49, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

If it shows trnc on the info box and on the bold section it should also be in the main title as well because it is the countries "official name". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.28.243.160 (talk) 14:34, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

It is clear that TRNC is not recognised as a legitimate country

The fact that Wikipedia perpetuates the name of this fake country for what it is goes against all international conventions. In fact there is not only one, but two UN resolutions surrounding the illegitimate name of the TRNC regime. The name Northern Cyprus should not be used here or elsewhere for this "country." As far as the international community is concerned there is only one Cyprus and that does not include the fictitious "Northern Cyprus." Why Wikipedia perpetuates the "Northern Cyprus" myth is clearly unintelligible. --58.165.74.186 (talk) 16:30, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

The article makes this clear. Did you read it, or did you just see the title? Britmax (talk) 16:47, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

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External links modified

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Nakhichevan

I have added sourced content concerning Nakhichevan and its recognition of Northern Cyprus. Deliberately deleting it and using false and misleading edit summaries won't get you anywhere. Better stop this. Akocsg (talk) 02:02, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Nakhichevan is not a country, so its "recognition" of anything is meaningless. "Greek coup" is highly POV and unencyclopedic. Have a nice day. Khirurg (talk) 02:16, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

It's an autonomous republic, thus its recognition is not meaningless. Furthermore, in similar articles, like Transnistria, examples of similar states are given.

And the 1974 Cypriot coup d'état was carried out by the Greek army. Read the article if you don't know what the matter is about. Akocsg (talk) 02:22, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

See WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Autonomous, or not, Nakhichevan is not a recognised state. Stop pushing this POV. Dr. K. 02:27, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 February 2018

Change "The current Prime Minister is Hüseyin Özgürgün" to "The current Prime Minister is Tufhan Erhürman" Change "from five electoral districts" to "from six electoral districts" the image should be changed as well, Guzelyurt was divided into 2 districts, Guzelyurt and Lefke. Change "In the elections of July 2013, the left-leaning pro-unification Republican Turkish Party won a plurality of seats the Assembly" to "In the aftermath of the elections of January 2018, a marginal majority coalition consisting of CTP (Republican Turkish Party), the newly formed HP( Peoples Party) , TDP (Communal Democracy Party) and DP (Democrat Party) was formed with 27 members of the assembly." Dinandenis (talk) 19:25, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

Mostly done, thanks for pointing it out. The map will be changed once we have a new one available that shows the boundaries of the six districts. All the maps that we currently have are outdated, but they are the best we have. --GGT (talk) 16:39, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

North Cyprus Politics section

Politics, Tufhan Erhurman is the new head of state succeeding Huseyin Ozgurgun. TRNC is currently ruled by a 4-way coalition, 2 centre and 2 left wing parties, the 4-way coalition is the first in the state's history.

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 20:14, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

This is a fake country

There is no international recognition of the state of "Northern Cyprus" and the only state that exists according to all UN resolutions is the state of Cyprus. The Turkish people are illegally occupying Northern Cyprus, and this article should not be on Wikipedia under the title of "Northern Cyprus" (or any other name really.) It has the same international recognition as the "country of "Sea Land" anyway and the entity that exists has an official name of TRNC... Please change the name of this article that is something more representative of the facts. --2001:8003:640C:4C00:4D06:C0E8:4D40:AB1B (talk) 02:23, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Turkish Cypriot elders playing backgammon.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 03:37, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Partially recognized VS Almost not recognized VS Recognized by Turkey only

The editors recently have done very well to correct some facts in the article regarding the Northern Cypriot administration, which, prior to their edits, the article gave the impression that the Northern Cyprus has some form of legitimacy and partial recognition worldwide, even though this is absolutely not true, no state besides Turkey itself recognizes it. The infobox was updated today by me to reflect upon these facts: [1]. However this was reverted by User:Outback the koala without an explanation, but I was quick to restore the edit. To maintain the illusion that this state has partial recognition because its creator recognizes it, is I believe a cheap way to turn a blind eye to the fact that no country recognizes it. However I am afraid the Almost not Recognized does not fit exactly well for the infobox. Should't be better if we change it "Recognized by Turkey only"? --👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{(talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 17:14, 25 August 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. "Partially recognized" is highly misleading and thus unacceptable. Khirurg (talk) 17:30, 25 August 2018 (UTC)

also pro "Recognized by Turkey only" it's the most correct, facts based description, least controversial too, I guessSander000 (talk) 17:41, 25 August 2018 (UTC)

The change in the first sentence is welcome, "partially recognised" can indeed be misleading. However, the infobox currently has two bits on recognition, one directly beneath the name and another beneath the map. That looks redundant, one is enough. Any way to fix that? --GGT (talk) 11:23, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

Ignore my comment. Thanks to a change in the infobox after my comment, that is no longer the case. —GGT (talk) 23:47, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

Nation --> Country

"No nation other than Turkey[40][61][62][63] has officially recognised Northern Cyprus as a sovereign state" should be "No country other than.....", in my hPOV. (plus, recogniZed)Τζερόνυμο (talk) 08:01, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Expanded to include a more robust description of events, where applicable. Changed suggestive and manipulative language i.e. subtle POV pushing, by including said events edit:

Hello,

I'm trying to improve this article but I'd also like the input of others.

Please take a look at my edit and refer any ideas or suggestions or possible contributions of your own that you may have etc. Any and all feedback or criticism on these ideas will be 100% welcome:

Northern Cyprus (Turkish: Kuzey Kıbrıs), officially the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (TRNC; Turkish: Kuzey Kıbrıs Türk Cumhuriyeti), is a de facto state that comprises the northeastern portion of the island of Cyprus. Internationally recognised only by Turkey, Northern Cyprus is considered by the Republic of Cyprus and the rest of the international community to be a part of the Republic of Cyprus. Northern Cyprus and Turkey do not recognise these claims.

changed to reflect the fact it is a state with limited recognition, as is the Republic of Cyprus. See: List of states with limited recognition

Northern Cyprus extends from the tip of the Karpass Peninsula in the northeast to Morphou Bay, Cape Kormakitis and its westernmost point, the Kokkina exclave in the west. Its southernmost point is the village of Louroujina. A buffer zone under the control of the United Nations stretches between Northern Cyprus and the rest of the island and divides Nicosia, the island's largest city and capital of both sides.

A coup d'état in 1974, orchestrated by EOKA-B and the Greek military junta as part of an attempt to annex the island to Greece and displace the Turkish Cypriot diaspora, prompted the Turkish invasion of Cyprus. This resulted in an end to the intercommunal violence, the collapse of the Greek military junta, the eviction of much of the north's Greek Cypriot population, the flight of Turkish Cypriots from the south, and the partitioning of the island. The Turkish Federated State of North Cyprus was proclaimed in 1975. Eight years after this, after espousing human rights and a desire to live side-by-side with the Greek Cypriots, and citing the legitimacy granted to the Greek Cypriot government by the international community as the only legitimate government of the Republic of Cyprus, as well as their being sidelined from it, and their own right to security and self determination, the North made a unilateral declaration of independence in 1983. This was rejected by the UN and the Republic of Cyprus. Due to the subsequent embargo and lack of international recognition thereof, Northern Cyprus is heavily dependent on Turkey for economic, political and military support.

changed to reflect on the coup's orchestrators and purpose, Turkey's response to that, what that immediately resulted in, the formation of the Turkish Federated State of North Cyprus (1975) as the first direct response, the precursor and cited cause(s) of the following declaration of independence (1983), the subsequent lack of recognition from the Republic of Cyprus and the international community, the subsequent embargo that was placed on Northern Cyprus which explains why it is heavily dependent on Turkey for economic, political and military support.

Attempts to reach a solution to the Cyprus dispute have been unsuccessful. The most recent attempt, the Annan Plan, was approved by Turkish Cypriots but declined by Greek Cypriots. The Turkish Army maintains a large force in Northern Cyprus. While its presence is supported and approved by the TRNC government, where it is seen as necessary to ensure its security, the Republic of Cyprus and the international community regard it as an occupation force, and its presence has been denounced in several United Nations Security Council resolutions.

changed to include the most recent example of attempts to reach a solution, which also provides background to the following sentence, and added an often cited reason for the TRNC's support for Turkey's military presence. Also see: the cited purpose of the Declaration of Independence of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, which emphasises "independence, freedom, and sovereignty of Turkish Cypriots, and realizing self-determination of the nation".

Thanks! Nargothronde (talk) 04:26, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

References

Nope. The whole edit is OR, unsourced or depends on WP:PRIMARYSOURCES. Ed told you to propose this POV on the talkpage for a good reason. For example, your proposed text: Eight years after this, after espousing human rights and a desire to live side-by-side with the Greek Cypriot is POV. How can this happen after expelling GCs, and illegally confiscating their property? Many other details in the proposed edit are similarly POV. I have reverted it. Dr. K. 05:33, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Dear Dr.K.... I received this kind message from you just now: (Reverted 2 edits by Nargothronde: Ed told you to propose this POV on the talkpage for a good reason. "Eight years after this, after espousing human rights and a desire to live side-by-side with the Greek Cypriots" How can this happen after expelling GCs, and confiscating their property? Revert POV additions and apologia.... Here is my response:

• 1) How can this happen after expelling GCs, and confiscating their property?. With the best of intentions, I think you need a history lesson. Not an opinion lesson, or a propaganda lesson, or a political expediency lesson, but a history lesson; a solid factual account of events.
• 2) Consider whether or not it is appropriate to assert your POVs here, and after attending to both that thought and my response no. "1)", consider whether your POVs are even correct to begin with.
• 3) Please explain your assessment of my edit. This is a solid factual account of events supported by nothing more than official robust citings that have been fact-checked discussed and published, not a POV.
• 4) With the utmost of civility: I'm not going to accept your edit warring invitation, I'm not going to accept your attempt to politicise this article to push your POVs, I'm not going to accept your attempt to attach sensitivity to this article, I'm not going to accept your gatekeeping of misinformation and POVs, I'm not going to accept your Harassment and Personal Attacks or attempts to undermine or dissuade users from contributing by politicising and sensitising this article by crying POV pushing, and I'm not going to accept your consistent attempts to create hostile environments around topics that see innocent edits you choose to disagree with based on your own incredibly assertive and emotionally-effected opinions.
• 5) Ed told me to propose this POV on the talkpage for a good reason. That's right. So why don't you discuss it on the discussion that I opened on the Talk page instead of monotonously shooting that itchy POV pushing trigger finger of yours. There is no excuse for your emotional POV pushing and gatekeeping of misinformation. Refer to this section to see said discussion and you'll see the proposed reasons for my edits, which you are 100% welcome to scrutinise, but please make sure your arguments stand up.
• 6) your assertions and demands are crude and cannot be dignified with a response.
• 7) Thank you Nargothronde (talk) 06:12, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Oh, and Dr.K., I forgot one part. Where you quoted the part "Eight years after this, after espousing human rights and a desire to live side-by-side with the Greek Cypriots" and then attacked and decried the truth behind it... the fact is, like I mentioned, this sentence is nothing more than a factual account of exactly what happened as it happened... eight years after the Turkish Federated State of North Cyprus was proclaimed, in 1975, in the Declaration of Independence of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus as it is known, they espoused (word for word) human rights and a desire to live side-by-side with the Greek Cypriots, then citing (word for word) right to self-determination, right to security etc declared independence, freedom, and sovereignty of Turkish Cypriots... regardless of whatever opinions you have about whether that's really what they wanted or not, or whether they were right or not, or whether you agree with them or not, that's all just a factual account of things just as they happened... nothing more, nothing less... there is absolutely no POV attached to that what so ever and there is absolutely no assertion in there what so ever... and might I also remind you that this has always been the official discourse of the TRNC government, too, even to this day... and if you still want to go down that road anyway and create and then supply your own opinions and theories, and then push them down people's throats (or eyes?) on Wikipedia, about who did what to who, here's a friendly little quiz for you:

• Q1) the XXXXXXXXXX official discourse follows a denialist rhetoric to the events of Bloody Christmas 1963, which is still reflected in history textbooks today.

A) Turkish Cypriot, or B) Greek Cypriot

• Q2) XXXXXXXXX Cypriot official discourse has the effect of presenting the XXXXXXXXX Cypriots as the victims of massacres and displacements in the face of XXXXXXXXX Cypriot aggression, whereas the overwhelming majority if not more-or-less all of the victims were XXXXXXXXX Cypriots

A) Turkish | Turkish | Greek | Greek, or B) Greek | Greek | Turkish | Turkish

• Q3) XXXXXXXXX official discourse has the effect of presenting that the conflict started with the Turkish invasion in 1974

A) Turkish Cypriot, or B) Greek Cypriot

• Q4) XXXXXXXXX Cypriots used (and still use) political expediency to legitimise continued human rights violations against XXXXXXXXX Cypriots, the suspension of their political rights, and their exclusion from the framing of the list of missing persons, basic organs, and other institutions of government

A) Turkish | Greek, or B) Greek | Turkish

• Q5) "reasonable" constitutional amendments after efforts for common understanding with the Turks are exhausted; trying to justify unilateral action since common agreement is impossible; keeping their actions for constitutional amendments open and always "appearing" ready for peaceful talks; not being of a provocative or violent nature; meeting any incidents that may take place at the beginning, in a legal fashion; clothing all actions in legal form... are tactics taken from XXXXXXXX.

A) Operation Attila, or B) the Akritas plan.

• Q6) "Since we do not intend, without provocation, to massacre or attack Turks, the possibility remains that the Turks, as soon as we proceed to the unilateral amendment of any article of the constitution, will react instinctively, creating incidents and clashes or stage, spurious killings, atrocities or bomb attacks on Turks, in order to create the impression that the Greeks have indeed attacked the Turks, in which case intervention would be imperative, for their protection." ... "In the event of spontaneous Turkish reactions, if our counter-attacks are not immediate, we run the risk of having panic created among Greeks, particularly in the towns, and thus we run the danger of losing substantial vital areas irreparably , while on the other hand an immediate and timely show of our strength may bring the Turks to their senses and confine their actions to insignificant, isolated acts, and" "In the event of a planned or spurious attack of the Turks, staged or not, it is imperative to overcome it by force in the shortest possible time, because if we succeed in gaining command of the situation in one or two days, no outside intervention would be possible, probable or justifiable." "In all the above cases, the forceful and decisive confrontation of any Turkish effort will greatly facilitate our subsequent actions for further Constitutional amendments. It would then be possible for unilateral amendments to be made, without any Turkish reaction, because they will know that their reaction will be impossible or seriously harmful for their community, and" "In the event of the clashes becoming widespread and general we must be ready to proceed immediately with the actions described in (a) to (d), including the immediate declaration of Enosis, because then there would be no reason to wait nor room for diplomatic action." are clauses taken from which plan?

A) the TRNC Declaration of Independence, B) Operation Attila, or B) the Akritas plan

• Q7) the above clauses seem to be asking us to?

A) love the Turkish Cypriots, B) integrate with the Turkish Cypriots, C) support the Turkish Cypriots, or D) depose and/or massacre and attack the Turkish Cypriots

• Q8) In his memoirs, American Undersecretary of State George Ball said: "XXXXXXXXX central interest was to block off Turkish intervention so that he and his XXXXXXXXX Cypriots could go on happily massacring XXXXXXXXX Cypriots. Obviously we would never permit that. "The fact is, however, that neither the United Nations, nor anyone, other than Turkey ever took effective action to prevent it.

A) Denktas | Turkish | Greek, or B) Makarios | Greek | Turkish

• Q9) On 17th February 1964, the Washington Post reported that "XXXXXXXXX Cypriot fanatics appear bent on a policy of genocide."

A) Turkish, or B) Greek

• Q10) On 3rd March 1996, the Greek Cypriot Cyprus Mail wrote: "XXXXXXXX Cypriot governments have found it convenient to conceal the scale of atrocities during the July 15 coup in an attempt to downplay its contribution to the tragedy of the summer of 1974 and instead blame the Turkish invasion for all casualties..."

A) Turkish, or B) Greek

• Q11) The Greek newspaper Eleftherotipia published an interview with Nicos Sampson on 26th February 1981, in which he said, "Had Turkey not intervened I would not only have proclaimed ENOSIS, I would have XXXXXXXXX the Turks in Cyprus."

A) loved, B) hugged, C) provided universal suffrage for, or D) annihilated

• Q12) On 24th July 1974, France Soir reported that "the XXXXXXXX burned XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXX and set fire to XXXXXXXX homes in the villages around Famagusta. Defenseless XXXXXXXX villagers who have weapons live in an atmosphere of terror and they evacuate their homes and go and live in tents in the forest. The XXXXXXXX' actions are a shame to humanity."

A) Turkish | Greek churches | Greeks | Turkish, or B) Greeks | Turkish mosques | Turkish | Turkish |Greeks

• Q13) The UK Commons Select Committee found that "there is little doubt that much of the violence which the XXXXXXXX Cypriots claim led to the total or partial destruction of 103 XXXXXXXX villages and the displacement of about a quarter of the total XXXXXXXXX Cypriot population was either directly inspired by, or connived at, by the XXXXXXXXX Cypriot leadership."

A) Greek | Greek | Greek | Turkish, or B) Turkish | Turkish | Turkish | Greek

• Q14) On 14th January 1964, "ll Giorno" of Italy reported: "Right now we are witnessing the exodus of XXXXXXXX Cypriots from the villages. Thousands of people abandoning homes, land, herds. XXXXXXXX Cypriot terrorism is relentless. This time the rhetoric of the Hellenes and the statues of Plato do not cover up their barbaric and ferocious behavior."

A) Greek | Turkish, or B) Turkish Greek

• Q15) until influential XXXXXXXXX Cypriots come to terms with the appalling behaviour of their community toward the XXXXXXXXX Cypriot community and stop trying to persuade themselves and the world that each side was as much to blame as the other, there will be no reconciliation in Cyprus.

A) Turkish | Greek, or B) Greek | Turkish

I can keep going and make this quiz much longer by the way, if you want. You might learn something from it. Please let me know if this was helpful. Thank you. Nargothronde (talk) 07:25, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

@Nargothronde: Can you post the source you used for this part of the edit:

A coup d'état in 1974, orchestrated by EOKA-B and the Greek military junta as part of an attempt to annex the island to Greece and displace the Turkish Cypriot diaspora, prompted the Turkish invasion of Cyprus. This resulted in an end to the intercommunal violence, the collapse of the Greek military junta...

If this is supported by reliable secondary sources, I think it would have to be included somewhere. (I haven't had a chance to review the entire edit, so I can't offer an opinion on the rest of it.) Seraphim System ^(talk) 08:13, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Thanks Seraphim System. I based this on a number of sources. In no particular order, they are: Nargothronde (talk) 02:34, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

References

Dear Nargothronde, a kind reminder, Talk Page is not a forum. Plus, lengthy texts make it difficult for the rest to follow (tldr). Cheers, Cinadon36 (talk) 11:53, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

I was about to say the same as Cinadon36 per WP:TLDR and WP:SOAP. May I suggest that you consider using Template:HAT to hide your "quiz". --T*U (talk) 12:27, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Thank you Cinadon36 and T*U. I never knew such a thing existed. I'll look into using that template as well as better consider the appropriateness of what I'm posting. I'll try to avoid turning the Talk Page into a forum.Nargothronde (talk) 02:34, 19 November 2018 (UTC)