Talk:F. N. Souza

Some unfair comments?

There seems to be some vandalising and motivated comments being inserted into this page, possibly by persons (or those acting on behalf) of interested parties and their proxies. Please see what has gone into this and the Solomon Souza https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_Souza page via some recent edits. Kindly take a suitable decision. Fredericknoronha (talk) 13:55, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Responses against Censorship requested by Frederick Noronha on behalf of Solomon Souza

Stop being a Bardezcar prude
The whole World has already seen
F N Souza's Naikinn in the nude

No more hagiographic whitewash
Niz Goencar are already aware
Pro-Souza articles are totally hogwash

Be more ethnocentric
Dysfunctionality should not be promoted
Souza-Kohn family is too dysgenic

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Original edits need to be restored in both articles (Solomon Souza and F. N. Souza). Both articles contain correct, albeit harsh, factual information provided with multiple verified inline citations. The attacks against F N Souza's artworks by Goans in Mumbai and complaints to the police against him in the 1940s are a matter of public record. So is the deliberate ignoring of F N Souza's funeral in Sewri in 2002 - it was a final "F@#& You" from the Goan community in Mumbai.

Liselotte and FN were never married to each other, they were married to others throughout their open live-in relationship. (Describing the affair as a "common-law marriage" is also a lie because of the existing marriages with others.) F N Souza moved out from the London apartment he shared with his wife Maria Figueiredo and their daughter Shelley in 1955 (Maria was a Bamonn originally from Borda in Salcette) because of his extra-marital affair with Liselotte, but he and Maria didn't divorce till 1964 (so he could marry the 16-year-old Barbara Zinkant). Not sure what motivates Solomon Souza lying across various forms of media (Indian press, Israeli press, Chelsea football club website, social media like Facebook, etc.) about facts already known by the Goan public and students of Indian Art History.

Frederick Noronha (the confirmed user who requested vandalism of accurate information in both articles) is a Goan living in Bardez and so he can talk personally with Maria Aurora Couto (she lives in Bardez but is originally from Salcette). He can also read Victor Rangel-Ribeiro's 2019 biography of F N Souza, it also shows that Solomon Souza was lying repeatedly in the Indian press.

Fair use rationale for Image:Eros Killing Thanatos.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 06:54, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Was Souza American?

Is Category:American people of Goan descent correct? Souza lived in New York for several years, but this does not mean he was an American, just an Indian or Goan living in the US. If no evidence is produced I propose to remove Souza from this category. Verbcatcher (talk) 17:25, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

User:Roland zh, I have removed Category:American male artists of Indian descent, Category:American people of Goan descent, Category:American Expressionist painters because Souza was not a US citizen. See Category:American people of Indian descent, which says "This category page lists notable citizens of the United States of Indian ethnic or national origin or descent, whether partial or full." Verbcatcher (talk) 03:48, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

Hi Verbcatcher, thank you for taking care, and notification at Francis Newton Souza's talk page – your re-categorization is more than adequate as I obviously was wrong, kindly regards, Roland zh (talk) 12:38, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

Nationality and citizenship

Irrespective of the passports that he held, it seems misleading to describe Souza as a British Asian artist. Wikipedia articles should be based on what reliable sources say, and most sources describe him as Indian or imply that he was.

• "A sale of a painting by the late Indian painter Francis Newton Souza" - BBC News[1]
• "Overlooked No More: F.N. Souza, India's Anti-Establishment Artist" - New York Times[2]
• "Francis Newton Souza has become the country’s most expensive artist." - Times of India[3]

In a British context a distinction is made between nationality and citizenship: citizenship being one's legal status and nationality being more a matter of personal identity, see Wikipedia:Nationality of people from the United Kingdom. Souza lived in Britain only for a relatively short part of his life. As a young man he supported the Quit India Movement.

I propose that we should change the lead to:

• Francis Newton Souza (12 April 1924 – 28 March 2002) was an artist from Goa in India. He was a founding member of the Progressive Artists' Group of Bombay. Souza's style exhibited both decadence and primitivism. He was a Portuguese citizen at birth and became a British citizen.

I would omit 'nationality' from the infobox. Verbcatcher (talk) 18:54, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

In 1967 he take nationality of France! 103.212.159.66 (talk) 08:13, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

No, 1967 is when Souza moved to New York City. But his fellow Progressive artist S. H. Raza had settled in France. 49.15.234.218 (talk) 13:42, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Here's an interview from 1966, he clearly saw himself as British and was upset by lack of recognition:

https://artreview.com/history-lessons-no-10-interview-with-f-n-souza/

BSP: A painting of yours was recently included in the Tate’s collection. Have you had a raw deal from the Art Establishment in this country?

<>

FNS: Bloody raw! Where’s my M.B.E.? Where’s the retrospective at the Whitechapel? And ever since I crashed into the Guggenheim Award as one of five painters to represent this country, I’ve been consistently kept out of all the national and international exhibitions. Native jealousy in an effort to dampen a trailblazer who is not English. People say: no, no, it can’t happen in England: people are much too civilised here. In fact, I used to think it could happen in every field except art. I am mistaken....I am told by Denis Bowen that the British Council will never buy or include in their exhibitions abroad any artist who is not British by birth. This ‘British’ stuff and nonsense is a laugh when you think of Leslie Howard, the most English of actors who was Hungarian by birth. And all those Polish grandmothers hanging in the family trees of Englishmen!

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 42.107.80.29 (talk) 23:19, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

I do not read that interview as showing that Souza saw himself as British.

"There’s no place for the artist in India" suggests that his main reason for leaving India was the lack of a market for his paintings. This is confirmed by Carvalho.[4]

Souza was annoyed by the attitudes to him of many in the London art world, although he suggests that this was sometimes due to his alcoholism (Rothenstein) or his politics (Berger). He was told that the British Council excluded artists who were not British by birth, but racism is not new, nor is it unique to Britain.

Souza was not saying that he was British, but that he was excluded from national and international exhibitions on the basis of his origin. When Souza says "This 'British' stuff and nonsense is a laugh" he is mocking British attitudes, and indicating that being British should not be important.

Wikipedia articles should be based on what reliable sources say, and not on an analysis of primary sources. I have seen no reliable sources that describe Souza as British. Rangel-Ribeiro says that he held a British passport, but that is not exactly the same thing. Verbcatcher (talk) 16:59, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

India doesn't allow dual nationality, so British Asian is accurate. Souza was also selected as one of five artists to represent Britain (not India!) in the Guggenheim International Award. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2402:3A80:18CB:8464:2A8A:227D:C706:25C8 (talk) 00:56, 24 November 2021 (UTC)