Talk:Charles Garabed Atamian

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Name and ethnicity[edit]

Where in WP:OPENPARA does it say his native name shouldn't be in the lead section? --Երևանցի ասելիք կա՞ 20:17, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

So you removed the ASALA monument pic from your TP and even began searching consensus? Congratulations! Please reserve those letters to people from Armenia. The fact that you and some other co-editors of your circle use "Armenia" as link to "ethnicity" in biographies/articles of certain people to avoid calling Turkish and Ottoman citizens as such, Istanbul, Ankara, Trabzon, Bursa etc are not cities of Armenia and have never been so. If you wish you may add the Ottoman Turkish transliteration to the name. --E4024 (talk) 20:38, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Since when does the content of my userpage concern you? Do you mind explaining? (Since ASALA assassinated a relative of mine everything related to those terrorists concern me. --E4024 (talk) 22:38, 10 December 2012 (UTC))[reply]
Those "terrorists" fought for something I believe in. The fact that you don't agree with their activity is you own personal belief to which this article has no connection. Several of my paternal ancestros have been killed by Turks in early 1920s. Should I announce that in every single article I discuss? --Երևանցի ասելիք կա՞ 23:35, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
To be considered Armenian one doesn't have to be born in the current Republic of Armenia. Aram Khachaturian, Charles Aznavour, William Saroyan and many many others have never lived in Armenia, still unarguably considered Armenian.--Երևանցի ասելիք կա՞ 22:13, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Don't worry Երևանցի. Only E4024 has the privilege of no connection to any nationalist ties. Only his opponents do. That's according to his ideas of course. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 22:20, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I openly announce that I am a nationalist. My political views are clearly set on my userpage. If somebody is socialist, multiculturalist, communist, anarchist or whatever they want to be is their own business. --Երևանցի ասելիք կա՞ 22:34, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]


Ethnicity or sexuality should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:41, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It is true, but only for people in the United States and other countries where ethnicity is only symbolical. For instance, you wouldn't mention that Ronald Reagan is of Irish ancestry. But in a country like Ottoman Empire, where Armenians had their own constitution, I don't think ethnicity was symbolical. --Երևանցի ասելիք կա՞ 22:13, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I don't agree. The guideline I presented link to does not say it is valid only for Americans. There are many people in USA who take their ethnicity very seriously. I think that the point of this guideline is not to emphasize any caracteristics like ethnicity if it did not contribute to persons' notability.
There is another point though. He moved to France when he was 27. Almost all of his adult life he lived in France as French citizen. During last 25 years of his life Ottoman Empire did not even exist. Therefore I think it might be absurd to refer to him as Ottoman painter. It might be better to refer to him as "French painter of Ottoman Armenian descent", or something similar.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:51, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, really? Name an American that does take his/her ethnicity seriously, but that's not the main issue. Take a look at Nikola Tesla. How important is his Serbian ethnicity to you? Though it is clearly stated "Serbian-American" and he wasn't even born in Serbia, but Croatia, then part of Austria-Hungary. I think that you'll agree that a lot of discussion should have been around Tesla's nationality and there is a reason why it settled on Serbian-American.--Երևանցի ասելիք կա՞ 01:27, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes really. Jim Belushi. He was born in USA and his nationality is American. Still, he takes his Albanian ethnicity very seriously.
  • Ethnicity that Nikola Tesla (or anybody else) declared means nothing to me. As far as I am concerned he is, like anybody else in the world, free to declare whatever ethnicity he wants. If his ethnicity was unrelated to his notability it shouldn't be emphasized in the lede.
  • There is an essay Wikipedia:Other stuff exists. I think that my proposal to refer to Atamian as "French painter of Ottoman Armenian descent", or something similar, is good compromise because it respect both wikipedia rules and your position. This is only my honest opinion and editors here are free to reach consensus which is different from my position.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:19, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I still don't see how Belushi is proud of his "Albanianness" and how it is significant. Whatever. In my opinion, "Turkish-born French painter of Armenian descent" would be better to avoid confusion.--Երևանցի ասելիք կա՞ 23:09, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Every ethnic Armenian were from Armenia at one point in their families history. This does not mean that they must have a political tie to the current or former republic. Therefore citizenship does not emphasize ethnicity. Especially when "Ottoman" is not an ethnicity at all. It is a connotation of an imperial dynasty. MGKazanc (talk) 20:58, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"Political tie"? Something like your user name that is not stable; suddenly Proudbolsahye becomes MGKazanc etc... --E4024 (talk) 21:04, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
What does my username have to do with any of this? The point is clear. When we say Armenian decent we mean his decedents were from Armenia. It doesn't mean that he necessarily lived in Armenia (whether independent or not) in his lifetime. That would be considered nationality which most of the time is emphasized in the article. MGKazanc (talk) 21:08, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I am not going to analyze the above words, User whose name is not relevant (I do not know how we will be able to direct our talk to you without a stable name), but only a question: Is that related to the fact that you put the "France" portal template but not Turkey or Ottoman Empire? Please be more sincere (than you already are, of course). You have been in WP for quite a few years now, you can do better both in editing and in interaction; I should be learning from you, not vice-versa... --E4024 (talk) 21:21, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Please respect WP:AGF and WP:NPA and comment on content, not on contributor.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:51, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I did not put the France portal template. MGKazanc (talk) 21:45, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Gallery of Non-Free Images[edit]

This large a gallery of non-free images is probably excessive. See WP:NFC#Multimedia where it states that "The use of non-free media (whether images, audio or video clips) in galleries ... generally fails the test for significance" Chris857 (talk) 20:49, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree - it will need to be pruned to one or two key works.--ukexpat (talk) 03:24, 24 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I will fix the licensing. Proudbolsahye (talk) 03:32, 24 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
To what? Unless you have permission from the copyright owner for the images to be used for all purposes, they can only be used pursuant to the WP:NFCC.--ukexpat (talk) 04:17, 24 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I thought he died 70+ years ago and per [[1]] it would have been permitted. However he died 65 years ago. So I don't think we can do anything about it.Proudbolsahye (talk) 04:21, 24 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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