Category talk:Tunisian diaspora in Israel

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Arab-Israeli[edit]

@User:Marcocapelle, Why did you remove the Arab category from this category? Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 20:21, 5 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@User:Marcocapelle, Are you assuming that Jews cannot be Arabs? Given that many Jews from Arab-majority countries are Arab Jews, I think the Arab categories are appropriate.
EDIT - The content for Tunisian-Israeli Jews has been moved to subcategories, so anything remaining for this category would pertain to non-Jewish Tunisian-Israelis. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 04:14, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Bohemian Baltimore: I am not assuming things, I have merely checked the content of the category (i.e. of the two subcategories). The content is largely Jewish, without mentions of Arab. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:36, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Marcocapelle: But you do seem to be stating that Tunisian Jews aren't Arab. Tunisia is an Arab country. Why wouldn't the Tunisian diaspora be an Arab diaspora? Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 04:39, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Marcocapelle: Yes, but there are Berber Jews and Arab Jews and Megorashim. Jews are a multi-ethnic ethnicity. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 05:28, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Bohemian Baltimore, if you don't stop your POV pushing on Arab and diapora nonsense - i shall ban you from editing those pages.GreyShark (dibra) 05:56, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@User:Greyshark09 You are threatening me? Because I disagree with your politics? Ban me on what basis? I'm shocked that rather than want to discuss this issue, your first instinct is to threaten to ban me. Are you an administrator?
In the meantime, I don't want to get into an edit war. I think it would be best if outside opinions were consulted. I will not touch these particular categories until there is a resolution of the disagreement. I would appreciate it if you would reciprocate. Best. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 11:21, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Jews cannot be Arabs, those are two distinct ethnicities. People can of course have mixed ethnicity, they would be referred to as part-Jew and part-Arab. Arab Jews are "Jews living in or originating from the Arab world". A Jew can practice Islam or an Arab can practice Judaism, but it doesn't change their ethnicity. One complication is that a non-Jew can undergo conversion to Judaism and thus arguably become a member of the Jewish ethnicity. "Arab Jews" and "Tunisian Jews" normally refer to Jews of specific origin, so the Arabs category is not relevant for this category. “WarKosign” 14:37, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@User:WarKosign There are Arab Jews (they quite clearly exist), so people can obviously be both Jewish and Arab. There are Black Jews, White Jews, Berber Jews, Asian Jews, Latino Jews. There are also Arab Jews. What does Islam have to do with anything? Islam and Arabness are two separate things. There are many Arab Christians and Arab atheists. I would suggest that you are offering an extremely narrow conception of "ethnicity", whatever that may mean here. There are many people who identify as both Arab and Berber, for example. Or Coptic and Arab. Or Black and Arab. Etc. Arab is a pan-ethnicity.
EDIT - I would add that given that "Arab" categories are removed even from articles for people who explicitly self-identify as "Arab Jews", there is a wider problem here of systemic anti-Arab racism on Wikipedia. I have added Arab categories on articles for individual Jewish people who have publicly stated that they identify as Arab, only to have those categories removed by users (Note: none of the editors in this discussion, that I am aware of, have done this.) But I think that the not-even-hidden racism against Arabs is something to consider in these conversations. It's a problem. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 14:58, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Bohemian Baltimore: have you read Arab Jews ? The article itself clearly says that the term refers to Jews who happen to live or originate from Arab countries. "Arab" in this context means Arab world, not Arabs as ethnicity/nation. A person can't possibly be an Arab and a Jew at once (beside mixed ethnicity), just like a fruit can't be an apple and an orange at the same time. “WarKosign” 15:30, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@User:WarKosign, I would suggest that such a view erases the identity of Arab Jews and is an openly racist claim. Arabs and Jews are people, not food. That's a strange metaphor to use. Arab Jews exist. You have a racist objection to the idea that someone can be both Arab and Jewish, but Arab Jews exist whether you approve of them or not. Bohemian Baltimore (talk)
@Bohemian Baltimore: Of course Arab Jews exist. All the Jews in Israel who were born in any Arab state and their decendants can be described as Arab Jews (or specifically as Iraqi, Syrian, Lebanese, Egyptian, etc Jews). They are not Arabs, though. There is nothing racist about it, it's just the way it is. There is nothing wrong with being an Arab, but Arab Jews happen not to be Arabs despite the description. “WarKosign” 17:07, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That's your personal POV. You are entitled to it. Arab Jews would disagree with you. People who respect the identities of Arab Jews would disagree with you. How is an Arab Jew any less Arab than an Arab Christian or an Arab Muslim or an Arab atheist? Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 17:34, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'll try to explain this once again. Arab Jew is not the same as a Jewish Arab.
  • Arab Jew is a person who's ethnically a Jew (not an Arab), but who's origin happens to be in an Arab country - either they reside in such a country, originate from one or descent from someone who did. In this case "Arab" is an adjective, describing the origin of the Jew.
  • Jewish Arab is person who is ethnically an Arab (not a Jew), but who practices Judaism. In this case "Arab" is a noun.
  • Compare these with Israeli Arab. This term describes someone who is ethnically an Arab but resides in or originates from Israel. Origin or country of residence does not change the ethnicity of the person.
It is not a matter of POV. It is the simple definition of the terms, as evident on the Arab Jew page or any of the sources it cites. Do you have any source that says otherwise ? “WarKosign” 18:08, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You should not delete any category just because of an assumption. Max Pigeon (talk)
I agree, you should not do anything just because of an assumptions. Now, how does it apply to current discussion? “WarKosign” 14:04, 7 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
He assumed that there are no Arab Jews. Bohemian Baltimore's first statement had no backing. Max Pigeon (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:09, 7 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This conversation is over someone vandalizing a page over an assumption which is their opinion. Max Pigeon (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:13, 7 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@User:Max Pigeon, I think you are mistaking me for another user. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 18:57, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oh shoot I am. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Max Pigeon (talk • contribs) 19:03, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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