Wikipedia:Featured article review/First Crusade/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was removed by User:Joelr31 23:51, 8 January 2009 [1].

First Crusade[edit]

Review commentary[edit]

Notified - Adam Bishop, Stbalbach, Shanes, Ghostexorcist, WP MILHIST, WP ISLAM, WP EGYPT, WP CATHOLICISM, WP Middle Ages, WP TURKEY, WP PALESTINE, WP RELIGION, and WP Christianity.

1c of the Featured Article Criteria states that, for an article to be FA-class, its "claims are verifiable against reliable sources, accurately represent the relevant body of published knowledge, and are supported with specific evidence and external citations; this requires a "References" section in which sources are listed, complemented by inline citations where appropriate". I do not believe this article meets that criteria, and that is why I have nominated it for an FA review. I have highlighted which sentences in the article I believe require citations with 'citation needed' tags (and to note, the article has 37 citations in total at the time of writing). Thank you in advance to anyone who gets involved in this review, and thank you for reading. OpenSeven (talk) 16:47, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Gwinva asked me to help fix this but I still haven't had a chance to do it. It should be pretty easy; it's just a big article and would take more time than I have had lately. I'll try to work on it before the FAR closes. Adam Bishop (talk) 21:16, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Adam, I'm throwing some citations at the sections I can get with my sources. (Hey, I wanted a break from bishops anyway!). There is just some stuff I don't have access to, my library tends towards English rather than Middle Eastern medieval stuff, so after I mine these books out, it'll be up to someone else. Also, OpenSeven, you'll note that this article was promoted over four years ago, in 2004, standards on citation have changed, and this article is actually in pretty decent shape for being promoted that long ago. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:33, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much Ealdgyth for the work you have done thus far on the article, it certainly is in a better shape from when I nominated it for a FAR. I'm afraid I do not see how a consideration of when the article was promoted is applicable to this discussion, as around the top of the Wikipedia:Featured article review article, it says "FAs are held to the current standards regardless of when they were promoted". I hope you will be able to improve the First Crusade article even further, so that it can get closer to satisfying 1c of the FAC.OpenSeven (talk) 21:41, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You added tags to every sentence? That's insane. You even tagged at least one section that actually is cited. No wonder FAR is such a pain in the ass. Adam Bishop (talk) 12:42, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I did not add a tag to every sentence, although the density of citation tags is high especially regarding the analysis sections, which offer the most controversial, unsourced points. If I have added citation tags to a paragraph which was already sourced, my apologies for that, and I would be entirely happy if my wrong citation tags regarding that paragraph are removed (I would do it myself but I cannot find the paragraph in question). Thank you in advance. OpenSeven (talk) 12:54, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'll keep plugging away Adam, in the next few days, hopefully I can whittle the number you need to mess with down. It'll be a few days, this is tedious work, I can only do it for so long. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:53, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Ealdgyth. If I can claim the majority of the work on the original version of the FA, then I assure you all I did not make anything up, which is why it should be easy to cite; but on the other hand, my knowledge of history and historiography was much poorer four years ago, so there are probably parts that need updates rather than just citations. (Of course, it's possible to have a whole paragraph or even a section cited by the same footnote; sorry if I was snappy earlier, but it's annoying when FAC busybodies stick tags everywhere when they have no knowledge of the subject.) Adam Bishop (talk) 16:54, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've thrown a few cites needed tags up, mainly when part of a paragraph is cited to a source I'm citing but earlier parts aren't necessarily cited there. I'm hampered by having misplaced my copy of Runciman's First Crusade, so I can't help much with that. I'll get to it again a bit later this afternoon. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:04, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's okay, we shouldn't use Runciman anyway. He's badly out of date even for the most basic information. Adam Bishop (talk) 21:15, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I think I've sourced everything I can. I just don't have the sources for anything but the narrative, sorry Adam. Hopefully this helped some at least. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:01, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note: that is the most obnoxious citation-bombing job I've ever seen at FAR. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:32, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is that good or bad?

By the way, the article still seems to be missing...something. I've been working on a section about some historiographical issues, which I suppose could go into the main Crusades article, but I think would also fit in this one; stuff like the Erdmann Thesis, common myths like the younger-sons-looking-for-glory idea, different opinions about the role of Islamic expansion, the cannibalism, the massacre in Jerusalem, etc. I guess I will have to intersperse it into the existing paragraphs. Would that be too much? Too boring? Best placed somewhere else? Adam Bishop (talk) 05:31, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(It is currently in my sandbox, by the way. Adam Bishop (talk) 07:50, 16 November 2008 (UTC))[reply]

OK, I've reworked the background section. More to come later. Adam Bishop (talk) 18:12, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was just reading Erdmann the other day (as you can see here and here). Perhaps a whole article on his thesis would be possible? I wish I had more time to work on this article, but I am busy these days. I think the article needs to be restructured. Looking at the table of contents, it's not a very inviting article. I like the idea of refuting common misconceptions (which is just about every common conception), but I don't like the sharp division that currently exists between "chronology" and "analysis". And the choice of headings does not help the reader greatly in selecting which section he (or she) wishes to read. But in short: I think I'd prefer "interspersing" to the current situation, but the information will just get lost that way unless the whole article is restructured. Srnec (talk) 06:16, 18 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think an article on the Erdmann thesis would be appropriate; I was also thinking that the origins section of the Crusades article could be expanded, but that article is in much worse shape than this one. At the moment I'm trying to sort out the background and the "east in the 11th century" section, and I haven't even begun to look at the rest of the sections yet. Adam Bishop (talk) 07:32, 18 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's been two weeks but the review hasn't closed, so can we request an extension? I think it will meet the FA standards with a little more time. Adam Bishop (talk) 06:02, 26 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

FAR doesn't move at FAC or GAN speed. We've got time, as long as things are being worked on. Usually it's a couple of months, all told. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:41, 26 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, excellent. Adam Bishop (talk) 14:41, 26 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How does the beginning look now? I've kind of been hacking and slashing, since there was a lot of repeated information, and (I thought) too much detail that is better off in other articles. I'm trying to coherently organize the background section but I am still not totally happy with it. Adam Bishop (talk) 15:56, 29 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

FARC commentary[edit]

Suggested FA criteria concerns are lead, comprehensiveness, and sources. Joelito (talk) 04:08, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Remove First of all, well done to Adam Bishop and Ealdgyth for the work they have done thus far on the article. It is because of that progress that I think this article can still recover to FA quality before this FAR concludes. However, for the moment, I do not believe the article is yet of FA quality. Inline citations lacking to the extent needed for FA, especially in the Analysis sections. Terrakyte (talk) 19:15, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I cleaned up the mess that the citation-bomber left. The requests for cites are in paragraphs that already have cites, so unless there is a challenge to be made for a specific statement, then those Fact tags are not needed. In addition to the lead section to be expanded, I suggest some short paragraphs (one-two sentences) merged, and some cites in the Aftermath section. I really don't think the "In arts and literature" section is needed, but that's up to the editors. In any case, I lean toward a Keep. --RelHistBuff (talk) 00:23, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hold steady improvement is happening. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 03:58, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note, I'll do some MoS cleanup over the next few days, but the WP:LEAD needs to be expanded. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:44, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

WP:MSH issues:
1 Background
1.1 Background
Inadequate WP:LEAD
Citation needs (see first para of Background as example) and citation tags
I asked User:Brighterorange to run his script to correct the faulty endashes in the ciations.

Work is still needed before this article can be kept. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:04, 1 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I guess everyone is busy at the moment. We'll get to it eventually... Adam Bishop (talk) 03:22, 2 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It is pretty much beyond my sources at this point. Very few English took part in this Crusade, so my sources don't concentrate much on it. Besides, I've got Wilfrid on my plate. Adam, if you need me for something, drop me a note, please. Otherwise, I think I'm done here. Ealdgyth - Talk 03:26, 2 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How do we feel about this one? Has all work been completed? Joelito (talk) 01:56, 8 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Nope! Honestly at the rate I find time to work on this, it could take months. If it is necessary to de-list it and go through the process again when I'm done, that's okay. Adam Bishop (talk) 02:29, 8 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.