Talk:Temperance movement/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Ku Clutz Klan

Someone did an interesting edit to the Ku Klux Klan article today regarding its temperance activities. Although I reverted the edit because there were a lot of problems with it, I assume there is at least some truth to the claim that the Klan was heavily involved in temperance.--Bcrowell 03:41, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

{ { attention } } marker

I've marked the page as needing attention, both because it's way too short for such an important topic, and because people's comments on this talk page seem to indicate a problem with its US focus.--Bcrowell 03:56, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Copyright

I've just removed the following text:

"Please note: This preliminary editing uses much material from my website (www.alcoholinformation.org), to which I hold the copyright. ```` David Justin"

Perhaps if I could address David directly; by submitting your text to Wikipedia you have agreed for the text to be released under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, a fact that is clearly stated at the bottom of every edit page. It's true that you do still hold the copyright, but there's no need for this to be stated on the page itself. "In the first case, you retain copyright to your materials. You can later republish and relicense them in any way you like. However, you can never retract the GFDL license for the versions you placed here: that material will remain under GFDL forever." --Dom 11:26, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

NPOV

This article is pretty slanted towards the teetotalers. It reads almost like a fable, and completely neglects to point out the problems that prohibition caused (increase in organized crime, highlighting the impotence of law enforcement, etc) A few points of note:

"The movement's major success" "prohibition remained a dream in England." "the movement achieved a number of successes" "The referendum was won" "The future looked bright for the young movement" "some stalwart leaders persevered in pressing their cause"

Liu Bei 19:14, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

The word prohibition has become a loaded expression used by those who campaigm for the decriminilisation of illicit drugs.A reading of original US congress records, tend to highlig the spin put on prohibition by those who had a vested interest in ending prohibition. It can be argued that the alleged increasein crime duing US prohibition is largely a product of Hollywood script writing. Golions 05:06, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Fascism and Nationalism

Article says:

Nationalism and Fascism have also been strongly connected to the cause in instances.

I'd like to know what the grounds for that are. As far as I know, the temperance organisations have rather been intertwined with the workers' movement - at least here in Sweden. To me, that looks like an odd attempt to discredit temperance. -- Jobjörn 02:35, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

See, for example, Preventing Alcohol Abuse: Alcohol, Culture, and Control. Westport, Ct: Praeger, 1995 and "Prohibition: the Era of Excess. Boston: Little, Brown & Co., 1962.
Considering that alcohol was prohibited - or heavily regulated - in the Soviet Union and that social democratic countries like Sweden have had a long tradition of regulating alcohol consumption, should it Socialism be added? Jobjörn 11:29, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
You got it absolutely wrong. Alcohol was never regulated in USSR/Russia, because it was so ubiqitous. Gorbachew only WANTED to ban it, but did not succeed. All other times in russian/ussr history, vodka was literally the only human right the state guaranteed to its citizens. In fact the entire tsarist Russia and USSR was run on vodka to make the people forget their misery via drinking.
Why Sweden and Finland regulate alcohol access so heavily is exactly because they do not want to meet the same fate of their neighbour Russia, where the entire population drinks itself to death and chinese immigrants fill their place! (And It has nothing to do with socialism, both Finland and Sweden are bloodiest capitalist market economies and have always been. Nokia, the mobile phone giant is finnish, Volvo and Ikea is swedish. The Ikea's single owner is among the top10 richest capitalist people in the world!)
Otherwise the desire to drink alcholics in high latitude countries is easy to understand. During the long autumn and winter there is very little natural light and this makes people depressed via melanin shortage. When you can't get outside due to damn cold and darkness, you either have sex or drink (watching TV becomes boring very soon). Considering that alcohol is easier to get than a sexy chic, most people end up drunk constantly. 195.70.32.136 10:49, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
No. In at least Sweden, temperance politics are closely tied to the left-right scale of politics, with the Christian Democrats being the exception. The Left Party are proponents of a highly restrictive alcohol policy. The Social Democrats - and the CD - are slightly less bent on state regulations on alcohol. Thereafter follows the centre party, the peoples' party and the moderates, the third being more liberal than the second and the second being more so than the first. Jobjörn (Talk ° contribs) 23:15, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Merge from Temperance organizations

Well, the main reason for me proposing this merge is this AfD. It's been lying around for a long time now, and the list is quite useless - it's a category, and most of it is probably redundant to this article. It's very US-centric, too. Any thoughts? Jobjörn (Talk ° contribs) 00:17, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Equation in text

I see the following equation at the beginning of the 2nd paragraph in this entry:
3.14 * 89 + 85(4962.36 + 6972)

The equation does not appear in the "edit this page" tab. I haven't really delved into editing the Wiki, so I hope you'll pardon me if I'm showing my noobness. (I also haven't posted in the "discussion" tab before, so I hope I'm doing this correctly.)

Wjc3 03:02, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

EDIT: Nevermind, the equation has now disappeared.

Yes, it was removed by me yesterday. You were probably watching a cached version of the article. Next time something similar happens, you should do a hard refresh in your browser: Ctrl + F5 will do in both Internet Explorer and Mozilla Firefox. Command + R if you are using safari. Jobjörn (Talk ° contribs) 12:55, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Capitalisation of Page Name

Should the page be "Temperance Movement" or "Temperance movement".

In other words is the title of the organisation, even a generic title the "Temperance Movement" or is it "just a movement" which is about temperance?

I know I can just be bold and create a redirect page form "Temperance Movement" to "Temperance movement", but it seems to e to be better to make sure the right page has the article and the other page is the redirect.

Fiddle Faddle 21:23, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

It is "just a movement" about temperance. Jobjörn (Talk ° contribs) 12:57, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Kevin Rudd

Should Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd's comments over the last few days be noted in the article? Seeing as he's trying to bring back prohibition... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.138.104.191 (talk) 08:05, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Australia ??

What happened to the section on the Australian temperance movement ?--Biatch (talk) 06:07, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

hard stats

"Social control over alcohol abuse declined, anti-drunkenness ordinances were relaxed and alcohol problems increased dramatically."

The case study on the US needs less repititions of dramatically, and more statistics. in this particular quote, isn't it true drinking more than halved from 7+ gallons of hard liquor per capita in 1830, to less than 2 gallons/capita by the mid-1840s, about the level of today? i have no time right now, someone please double check this. --Karch 12:26, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

agreed. there are virtually no stats or references in the US portion of the article. it seems that the npov requirement is being compromised. Aceholiday (talk) 21:10, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Connecticut temperance association

The article says "about 2000 farmers in a Connecticut community formed a temperance association in 1789." but the article on prohibition - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibition_in_the_United_States says - "about 200 farmers in a Connecticut community formed a temperance association in 1789." . I am not sure which number (200 vs 2000) is correct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.120.196.106 (talk) 17:12, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

New file File:Dame Agnes Elizabeth Weston from NPG.jpg

File:Dame Agnes Elizabeth Weston from NPG.jpg

Recently the file File:Dame Agnes Elizabeth Weston from NPG.jpg (right) was uploaded and it appears to be relevant to this article and not currently used by it. If you're interested and think it would be a useful addition, please feel free to include it. Dcoetzee 00:19, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Sentence Fragment

While browsing, I ran across this page and found a sentence fragment at the top of the United States section reading "rather than prohibition)". The next sentence then goes on to discuss Rush. I assume that fragment had originally been part of a sentence that introduced this Rush person, but it's been broken for more edits than I care to look through in the history. Someone with time should go back through the history and pull that sentence back out so that everyone can know who Rush is.76.195.21.254 (talk) 21:10, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Let's add a Criticism section!

Here's some text for consideration to include in the Temperance Movement article:

The ideological and political notion of limiting access to alcohol products has been noted by many researchers as outdated, unscientific and overly-manipulative of human populaces. (Add many easy to find, empirically researched references here.) Furthermore, contemporary studies highly correlate moderate alcohol beverage consumption with many health benefits, including (but not limited to) decreased risk of atherosclerosis,[1]

Someone should really add the OUTCOME of the movement. Anyone who does not know much about history or the United States may even believe that the 18th amendment is still active. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.206.246.242 (talk) 23:45, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Kuller, Lewis H., Pearson, Thomas A., Steinberg, Daniel. Alcohol and atherosclerosis, Article Abstract. American College of Physicians. Annals of Internal Medicine. 1991. ISSN: 0003-4819.
A criticism citing one scientific paper only would not survive for 30 seconds. Take a look at the articles in the Alcohol and Health box to see hundreds of papers about alcohol's effects, often bad but sometimes good. Nunquam Dormio (talk) 08:33, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

7th grader's website. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.149.70.90 (talk) 20:19, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Local option

Can someone please explain this term? Nineteenth century temperance issue debaters used it often as an understood phrase or principle. I have found Local Option by William_Sproston_Caine on Google Books but am not clear on how this idea is/was to be implemented in a community. By poll? Bluedawe 01:58, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Turner's first name?

I find Turner referred to as "Dickey Turner" and "Richard Turner" on English web sites, he is called "John" here. He was apparently a stutterer, and that is one story where the TeeTotaler comes from. --WiseWoman (talk) 09:47, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Women's suffrage

Thanks for this clarification. --Uncle Ed (talk) 01:15, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

The new temperance movement against oil

The temperance movement is an excellent example of how a small, vocal, organized minority was able to leverage moral or political correctness to inflict their social change agenda on a complacent, shamed majority. The ideals of the agenda countered human nature, were not integrated by the majority, and laws were reversed after high social costs. Similar agendas and methods to inflict social change exist today.

A temperance movement of sorts demands another hydrocarbon be renounced, gasoline! This minority of activists are political, ideological, and religious in fervor. They base their fight on many fronts: gasoline is bad for the health - walking and bicycling are healthier transport modes; burning hydrocarbons increases global warming and hastens The Rapture; bicycles are chariots of the gods; shared vehicle lanes shall be made bike-only lanes. Instead of organizing in churches, the new temperance army congregates on the Internet. The self righteousness of New Urbanists and bicycle activists equals that of teetotalers a century ago. Dismantling of prohibition laws when the minority movement faded may be echoed in returning roadways to motorists if the current cycling fad wanes. The previous bicycling boom was in the 1970's. Mark Kaepplein (talk) 07:07, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Citations in Temperance Fountains section

I have added two citations to this section in response to the copyedit message, but I'm unsure if this is enough to remove the message.--Soulparadox 14:52, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Auckland Temperence Movement

Whilst repairing the bare URLs on this page, I encountered an inappropriate Facebook Groups citation. However, whilst attempting to find an alternative citation for this supposed movement, I failed to find a single web-based reference. I have therefore deleted the spurious information on this basis; if anyone can provide substantiation, then it can be restored.--Soulparadox 11:38, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Removed David J. Hanson spam

Discuss here to readd. Flowanda | Talk 07:55, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Needs refocussing

The article seems to be a collection of regionally based articles and really needs refocussing into a coherently based whole. Instead of going country by country this really needs to have a coherant timeline, showing when and why the phenemona started, its rise, decline and continued presence. We seem to be doing this but six or seven times (by country). JASpencer (talk) 16:59, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Confusing Addition

This edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Temperance_movement&diff=693334011&oldid=693129885

Inserts the complete paragraph: "It prohibited the buying, selling or producing alcohol, however it was not illegal to posses if if one already did."

This sounds like it's talking about a specific law that was proposed/introduced under the influence of this movement. But the surrounding paragraphs make no mention of such, and in fact their balance is for social discouragement rather than legislating. Even if it's potentially relevant to something else in the article, here it makes no sense. (Also "posses" is misspelt.) 2A00:81C0:0:20:6631:50FF:FE3B:8A49 (talk) 18:54, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

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British English and dmy dates?

Per Wikipedia policy, I am supposed to ask other editors about this first, so here goes: anyone knows why this article is set for British English and dmy dates? Considering that the temperance movement was most strong in the United States, i would argue for American English and mdy dates.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 11:03, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Upcoming conference

If anyone is going to this conference, please post a link to the papers distributed there, so we can use them in the article.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 12:47, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Citation system used

Skyes, if you want to switch citation system from shortened footnotes ({{sfn}}) to the {{rp}} system, that is fine with me. But you will have to apply the system everywhere. It is not recommended per MOS to use more than one system in one article.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 11:13, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

  • I was wondering about the rule for that. Thanks for letting me know. I don't remember what I did as far as citation style so I'll have to go check it out and figure out what I want to do. Skyes(BYU) (talk) 18:01, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Looking back at the article, I don't believe that I've been using the sfn style. I've only been using the rp style, because that appeared to be the style used the most in the article. I did, however, notice some sfn style references in the article. Considering it is mostly in the rp style, I think it should be changed to rp style to be consistent. Skyes(BYU) (talk) 18:08, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Section Principles

Should we have a separate section on principles and practices? It seems to me that many of the principles and practices stayed unchanged during the history of temperance, or did not fundamentally change at least. Mentioning principles and practices now and then, alongside a timeline of historical sections looks quite incoherent.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 22:13, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

I think that's a great idea! Skyes(BYU) (talk) 22:21, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Women and Temperance

I know that there is an article about the Women's Christian Temperance Union, but I think women's work on the temperance movement should at least be summarized in this article. Skyes(BYU) (talk) 19:06, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

There is already some discussion of this in the section Temperance movement#Transition to a mass movement (1860s–1900s), but if there is something specific you are missing, you should mention it.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 22:07, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
  • There are some brief mentions of the WCTU and other organizations yes, but women contributed pretty significantly to the movement (there is a entire book on the WCTU sitting on my desk) and I think that should be better reflected in the article. I am working on some stuff in my sandbox to add regarding women's contributions. I think women and the temperance movement deserve their own section at least, if not their own article sometime in the future. I just wanted to mention it on the talk page so that anyone working on the page would be aware that a new section is probably necessary. Skyes(BYU) (talk) 22:19, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Yes, you're probably right that the role of women is still understated in the article. The reason for that may also be the section structure of the article, which seems to confuse rather than highlight the developments.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 12:15, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
Added some info, this is a work in progress. I will be adding citations and improving it soon. Skyes(BYU) (talk) 18:36, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

LDS movement

I was interested in adding some information about the temperance movement in relation to Latter-day Saints. Anyone is welcome to join! Skyes(BYU) (talk) 16:47, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

Farang Rak Tham, I'm getting ready to add info about Latter-day Saints and temperance. Since you seem to have a solid vision of how you want this article to look organizationally, where do you think it would fit? It would include information about both history and LDS practices and beliefs so I'm not sure whether it is deserving of its own section or would be better merged somewhere. Thanks for your recent edits, the article is looking much better! Skyes(BYU) (talk) 22:44, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
Skyes(BYU), no solid vision yet. Still getting acquainted with the sources. I'll take a look at your content. Is it in your sandbox?--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 00:11, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
Skyes(BYU), I would add the part from According to some scholars ... onward, and briefly summarize the rest in a sentence. And terms like revelation are devotional and legitimizing in nature. You should attribute such terms to a group or person, rather than use the 'voice of Wikipedia' for that.
I think the article about temperance is getting more and more interesting, and I am happy to continue to pursue this, to bring it up to GA level. It is a "blind spot" in western culture and historical consciousness, and is a story that should be told.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 07:16, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
Farang Rak Tham, thanks for the advice! I will try to apply what you said, but please feel free to make edits as you see fit. I still don't exactly know where to put it, but I will just add it somewhere and we can focus on organization later. Skyes(BYU) (talk) 16:23, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Note that Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Latter Day Saints and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Latter Day Saints) is not being followed in this article in reguards to pre-succession crisis (Latter Day Saints) naming conventions. However the article is semi-protected, so I cannot make the needed changes. -- 155.95.90.240 (talk) 16:19, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

Also this is very incomplete, expecially with the early Utah period, which saw an LDS apostle owning a beer brewery in Salt Lake City, and church leaders publicly arguing as late as 1901 that the WoW does not prohibit beer. (See: Thomas G. Alexander, "The Word of Wisdom: From Principle to Requirement", Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 14:3 (1981) pp. 78–88.) It makes it seem as if the current understanding of the WoW alcohol proscription, which date only from Heber J. Grant's presidency, is what was taught and understood since Joseph Smith's time. Grant had a pivotal role in having the LDS Church join the more general temperance movement, and this push by him was a natural extension of the Good Neighbor policy (LDS Church). -- 155.95.90.240 (talk) 16:35, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
  • I am aware that this section is not complete. That is because I'm not finished with it (I have many sources that I have not yet used). I am planning on expanding it, but I have many articles that I am working on right now and I have to make sure I spread out my time among them evenly. This article is semi-protected due to constant issues with vandalism; however, you are welcome to contribute to the article with a verified wikipedia account. I would appreciate your help. Skyes(BYU) (talk) 17:26, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Also, even though I am LDS, I am not an expert in conventional naming of various sects of the LDS church or the history of the churches splitting off. In fact, I do not know much about that at all. Seriously, if you want to use an account and contribute, the article would surely benefit from it.Skyes(BYU) (talk) 17:33, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

not just US?

I do not think it was only in the US - I believe that there was a similar movement in Australia around the same time. --Robert Merkel 01:42 Jan 23, 2003 (UTC)

The movement is not quite limited to english-speaking countries, as the article says. I don't know about the rest of the world, but all scandinavian countries had "avholdsbevegelser" or temperance movements. They were very popular here in norway, since alcoholism was a HUGE problem in the past. (Advocates against racism will often quote a text denouncing these perpetually drunk, backward people that will never amount to anything, before revealing that the people in question is nineteenth-century norwegians, as seen by british) The norwegian total abstention movement (DNT) was founded by the quaker Asbjørn Kloster, I don't have the year, but not long after the international order of good templars (IOGT) also appeared. In the beginning they mainly resisted the traditions that said to drink alcohol at every conceivable excuse, but they quickly became a reform movemente of note. On prohibition, a significant faction led by Sven Arrestad wanted a gradual strategy of forcing alcohol sale into local monopolies, and then vote (in local referendums) to get rid of them entirely. Arrestad was particularly sensitive to economic considerations, and worked hard (he was a MP) to make sure that the profits from possible monopoly alcohol sale didn't end in local politicians' coffers. However, the majority wanted a national prohibition of liquor, and they won the resulting national referendum by a large majority - not suprising, since women could vote for one of the first times. (aside, the movement was very early in supporting equal rights for women)

Largely due to protest from wine-importing trade partners, a new referendum was held 5-10 years later(?), in which prohibition was removed.

Thank you

Farang Rak Tham, thank you for your recent edits and additions. I appreciate your hard work on this article. It's looking better everyday. Skyes(BYU) (talk) 16:29, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

Why, thank you too, Skyes! You've been working very hard as well! --Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 07:31, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
Women storming in saloons to stop the alcohol sales! I think we've got our first Did You Know nominee ...--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 11:37, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

Worldwide temperance?

In writing this article, we must not forget that there already are several article about the temperance movement in several areas of the world. I think it is important to guard that we are not losing ourselves too much in the specifics of each and every region, but rather focus on the trends of temperance as a worldwide phenomenon. Although a majority of sources on the subject tend to focus on temperance in the US, temperance was essentially a worldwide phenomenon at the time, not and American "export product", nor a local form of radicalism. There are four major geographical areas that I have discovered in the sources, that is, the US, the UK, the Nordic countries and Oceania. There was major influence and exchange between these areas, and many parallel developments as I have been reading in Edman (just added to the article in the last weeks).

We have to try to focus on the commonalities. Once the article is above 50 kB, we might have to move too specific content to the appropriate pages on each specific area of the movement. Please note that much of the content may actually be relevant, when we can find evidence that there were parallel developments in other parts of the world.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 13:01, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

  • Farang Rak Tham, I'm going on vacation for a couple weeks and will be taking a break from Wikipedia, so I won't be contributing to the article for a little bit. In the time being, if you feel the need to edit down some of my overly specific material, feel free. Thanks so much! I'm glad to have the opportunity to collaborate on this article with you! Skyes(BYU) (talk) 16:35, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
  • Oh, I am not a content killer, Skyes(BYU). I will continue with the article for a while, and see what connections we can make. The question of relevance will become more important once we submit the article for GA, or once it becomes larger than 50 kB or so.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 20:15, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
  • And enjoy your relaxing vacation. --Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 20:16, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

Reverted edit

Farang Rak Tham Please provide citations for the claim, "There's scholarly consensus that the temperance movement has much affected the civil rights movement". I've never encountered that claim. Mitchumch (talk) 06:41, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

@Mitchumch: Please read the section Temperance movement#Beliefs, principles and culture.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 06:47, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
Farang Rak Tham Specifically, what are you referring to? I don't see it. Mitchumch (talk) 06:57, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
@Mitchumch: Some examples from the article:

The League campaigned for suffrage and temperance simultaneously, with leader Susan B. Anthony stating that "The only hope of the Anti-Saloon League's success lies in putting the ballot into the hands of women", i.e. it was expected that the first act that women were to take upon themselves after having obtained the right to vote, was to vote for an alcohol ban.[45]

Historical analysis of conference documents helps create an image of what the temperance movement stood for. The movement believed that alcohol abuse was a threat to scientific progress, as it was believed citizens had to be strong and sober to be ready for the modern age. Progressive themes and causes such as abolition, natural self-determination, worker's rights, and the importance of women in rearing children to be good citizens were key themes of this citizenship ideology.

Temperance advocates saw alcohol as a product that "... enables a few to become rich while it impoverishes the very many". Temperance advocates worked closely with the labor movement, as well as the women suffrage movement, partly because there was mutual support and benefit, and the causes were seen as connected.

Indeed, scholar Ruth Bordin stated that the temperance movement was "the foremost example of American feminism."[93] Prominent women such as Amelia Bloomer, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, and Susan B. Anthony were active in temperance and abolitionist movements in the 1840s.[2]:47

In a Chicago meeting of the National American Woman Suffrage Association, Susan B. Anthony stated that women suffer the most from drunkenness. The inability for women to control wages, vote, or own property added to a woman's vulnerability.[94]:7

At the end of the nineteenth century, temperance movement opponents started to criticize the slave trade in Africa. This came during the last period of rapid colonial expansion. Slavery and alcohol trade in colonies were seen as two closely related problems, described as "the twin oppressors of the people". Again, this subject tied in with the ideas of civilization and effectiveness: temperance advocates raised the issue that the "natives" could not be properly "civilized" and put to work, if they were provided with the vice of alcohol.[38]:35–36

--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 09:41, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
@Farang Rak Tham: None of the things you quoted mention the civil rights movement. Why do you think the above demonstrate a connection to the civil rights movement? Mitchumch (talk) 16:02, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
the RS keep the topics separate. On reason is that the civil rights movement of the late 1860s insisted on excluding women in 15th amendment--it said voting rights for men only. Rjensen (talk) 18:15, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
(edit conflict) I have read the article again now, and as it stands, there is no mention of the rights of African Americans. I do believe there was a trend in some temperance organizations to describe the cause of temperance and abolition in terms of a common cause between whites and blacks, and these organizations were very tolerant and respectful to black people. In general, however, the movement emphasized women's rights more than the rights of African Americans. The person who added the wikiproject tag might have aimed at a general connection with civil rights, and not specifically the civil rights movement of African Americans. Having looked at your arguments again, I can understand now why you would remove the tag.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 18:21, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
Responding to Rjensen, as I have read and interpreted the sources—and most of what I cited above I wrote myself—the temperance movement was part of civil rights movements in general, but not the American civil rights movement that deals with American segregation of black people. Women suffrage and temperance were very much connected, which is ubiquitous in the sources about temperance movements. In some countries, including Holland and to some extent the United States, temperance also came to be connected with improving the worker's rights. In Holland, one important temperance organization was called the "Blauwe Knoop", lit. 'the blue button', referring to the rights of the blue-collar workers.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 18:30, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

There is a tendency among some editors, as I have also mentioned above on the talk page, to think that the temperance movement was only an American phenomenon. It was not. It was a worldwide phenomenon. There were already in the 19th century international temperance meetings in different places in the world, as extensively described by Erdman as cited in the article.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 18:33, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

@Farang Rak Tham: Are you okay with me removing the civil rights movement project from this article. It appears to be a disambiguation issue that led to this confusion. Mitchumch (talk) 20:33, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
Alright, agreed.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 07:44, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
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