Talk:Tao/Archive 3

Inclusion of two translations of TTC frist stanza

I have a problem with the inclusion of a second version of the TTC in the article. I know everyone has his own favourite version and can bring forward reasons to justify its inclusion. However, the translation by TrueTao.org is just not good English, in my opinion. For example, the use of the word "constant," which is repeated several times, renders the meaning almost impenetrable. The translation says:

"The Tao that can be spoken is not the constant Tao
 The name that can be named is not the constant name..."

What does this mean? What is "constant Tao?" What is a "constant name?" Later in the stanza it says "constantly free of desire..." "constantly filled with desire..." The word "constantly" does nothing but introduce a confusing element into the phrase. If one is free of desire one is free of desire. Adding "constantly" renders it problematic. If one is constantly free of desire, one cannot then be filled with desire. Constantly means always.

Langdell has said that quoting sections from TTC is not good enough. I agree. There needs to be more meat in the article itself. And I don't think we should have two quotations from the TTC. Anyone who thinks we need the second quotation, please speak to that. Sunray 02:00, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

Sunray, I agree with you that the word "constant" may be confusing. A better word would be "eternal," which is used in Gia Fu Feng and Jane English's translation:

"The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.
 The name that can be named is not the eternal name." [1]

I think it should be pointed out specifically that some translations say the Tao cannot be known, while others say nothing about the inability to know or understand the Tao. This second group of translators usually say the Tao cannot be told or spoken of. Whether or not the Tao can be known or understood is a fundamental issue. I don't have a favorite translation of TTC, although I am in accord with the second group of translations and have given examples of things that cannot be described truly with words but are understandable through personal experience, ie. the taste of food.

Tao is a fascinating concept and very difficult to truly comprehend. That's why there are those who devote 100 percent of their energies, their entire lives, in studying the Tao. They are called Buddhist monks. These super scholars have been known to confine themselves months at a time, year after year, with the soul purpose of pouring over books and meditating on what they have read in order to truly grasp a certain subject.

Having heard many sermons from Vietnamese Buddhist Masters, I have never heard them say that Tao cannot be understood. I've only heard the opposite, that one needs to understand the Tao in order to attain enlightenment.

One of these masters, the venerable Thich Tam Thanh, who has chosen to be a Buddhist monk in his late teen years, said that even though he had gained teacher status and was confident of his knowledge after ten years of studies and meditation, his understanding of Tao at that ten-year stage seemed shallow after twenty years, and the twenty-year stage seemed superficial after thirty years. He said he was glad he had not written any book at those times, for he would have had to retrieve and burn them all. He also said it has become increasingly difficult for him to give sermons because he knows what he is saying is just not quite right.

By the way, I think he passed away in 2004. Thankfully, his disciples have recorded some of his teachings, one of which is his explanation (in Vietnamese) [2] of the famed Lotus Sutra).

I would like to end my discussing with one of my favorite story: A group of Masters have gathered to expound their knowledge and understanding of the Tao. Many gave eloquent, mesmerizing testimonies. When it came to (eek, forgot his name)'s turn, he simply said nothing. After some time has passed, he left the podium and sat down. The consensus was that he was a person who truly understood the Tao.

Thank you for your time and patience in going through my spiel. Cann0tsay 14:53, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

P.S. I would like to acknowledge a mistake in my previous edit of Tao. My statement, "...the Chinese character that was used in the first verse means 'say, speak.'...," is wrong. Literally, first two verses translate to:

"tao can tao not constant tao
 name can name not constant name"  Cann0tsay 18:15, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Ugh, constant again. I liked your suggestion of "eternal." :-) You make the point that the statement Tao "cannot be known" is problematic. I agree with that.

So let’s find another translation. I was weaned on the Gia Fu Feng and Jane English translation, so wouldn't kick at that at all. However, whatever we decide on, I would suggest we find one that meets the following criteria:

1. Illuminates one’s understanding of the nature of Tao;
2. Reads well in English (since this is an English version of Wikipedia)

Great story about the group of masters! Perhaps we should add that to the article too. Sunray 22:37, August 20, 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, constant again. I got that quote from the Complete Idiot's Guide to Taoism, by Brandon Toropov and Chad Hansen.

Anyhow, I'd vote for Gia Fu Feng and Jane English. We might consider having a link to professor Ellen Chen's version for those who want detailed analysis. She intersperses key Chinese terms; I have not seen that done anywhere else. Also, according to this website, her translation seems to have had rave reviews[3].

Glad you like the story about the group of masters. I'll do more research so that the final version can be more accurate. Cann0tsay 03:05, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Let's go with the Gia Fu Feng and Jane English translation. I'm going to try to get a look at Ellen Chen's translation in the next couple of days. It sure does get rave reviews. Sunray 06:50, August 23, 2005 (UTC)

I was able to get a copy of the book by Chen and have had a look at her translation. It is good:

Tao that can be spoken of,
Is not the Everlasting Tao.
Name that can be named,
Is not the Everlasting name.  

Looking at your literal translation, it's clear that she is close. However, it doesn't scan as well in English as the Gia Fu Feng/Jane English version. The words Tao and name need articles in front of them. So for now, I would say let's stick with the version we have as I think it is more accessible. BTW, Chen's book has marvelous commentaries on the TTC. Sunray 21:25, August 27, 2005 (UTC)

Whew! Just got back from a much needed mini-vacation.

I like what you've done. Good job! I notice there's already a link to Ellen Chen's translation in the Tao Te Ching article. Therefore, we probably don't need another one here.

As for the "group of masters" story, I have to scan through over twenty hours of audio recordings; so, it may take a while. Too bad making a living and providing for wife and kids have to get in the way of this :) Cann0tsay 03:44, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

By the way, I hope what I'm about to say would help Sunray and those who did not grow up with the word Tao as their normal, daily vocabulary. The Tao that we discuss is an abstract concept, like love. Thus, the usage of the term "Tao" is like the usage of the term "love." Once you understand it this way, it won't be as awkward when you do not see an article in front of Tao. cann0tsay 19:39, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I would like to add that 'eternal' is an improper translation from the Chinese original ch'ang (which modifies tao ['way'] in the first line and then ming ['name'] in the second). The idea of 'eternity' didn't exist in ancient China. The Chinese then may have very well had an idea of things going on and on, but they did not have a sense of 'lasting forever'. 'Constant' or 'unvarying' are more correct translations of ch'ang. 'Eternal' is simply incorrect regarding the era in which the text is supposed to have been written, and therefore was not the intended idea of Lao-tzu. This is important regarding translation and should be included in the article. --Bentonia School 17:08, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

It has been a few weeks since I posted my thoughts, which can be varified if you wish to do the research into the wording of the Chinese language used to write the text. There seems to be no objections so I will add a section referring to 'eternal' as a non-entity ideology of the Chinese of the era. The section I will add will discuss the problems of translation and promote the use of 'constant', 'unvarying', and other translations of ch'ang rather than 'eternal'. --Bentonia School 14:22, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

It is wonderful to see people take so much interest in Daoism. I am myself am a Pre-classical Daoist, which should not be confused with the Classical Daoist nor the Neo-Daoist. I have read your year old discussion and found it fascinating. I’d just like to add some clarification to something that seems to be in dispute.

The oldest extant text Ma-wang-tui text A does not use ch’ang (constant). It instead uses heng (eternal). I believe this makes significant difference considering the connotation of “constant” which denotes an idea of changelessness, while “eternal” gives an impression that while it “Dao” can and does change, it remains the foundation to all things/no-thing-ness.

Second is the transliteration of “speak” and it’s other manifestations in to the discussion of the eternal Dao. Ex:

"The Tao that can be spoken is not the constant Tao
 The name that can be named is not the constant name..."

This transliteration has more to do with the commentaries put forth by a Daoist scholar named Wang Bi (226-249 CE). The text itself in original Chinese literally translates to:

 “Dao can Dao
  Not eternal Dao
  Name can Name
  Not eternal Name”

I would further like to add that “Name” ought to be viewed as “Distinctions” and not just words. The more distinctions you have the more things, as in “the ten thousand things” (verse 42), you create for yourself thus moving you farther away from Dao.

Lastly, I have read many different translations of the Dao De Jing and the best translation in English has to be Red Pine’s ‘Taoteching’.

P.S. Enlightenment in Daoism is not about understanding or knowing Dao, it is about truly and utterly realizing that you are and have always been Dao.--Dok dx (talk) 04:36, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Section after Intro

I would like to include the following section after intro to Tao:

• Philosophies Complementing Practices

The concept of Tao appeals to the adherents of Taoism in two ways, as a set of philosophies that can be contemplated on, and as the raison d’etre for creation including the Chinese deities and all humanity. The two versions of cosmologies exist side by side, with no contradiction and serve to complement each other.

• The intellectual version describes a cosmology in which the world of Tao was monist in its pre-creation stage, one that equally applies to the current state of the universe (TTE Chapter 40) as well as the human anatomy, dualistic during its transformations like the two realms, heaven and earth, and ultimately panentheistic in that the same Tao is prevalent today in all creation, as it was pre-creation. This panentheism posits Tao as the cause of the Supreme Being which would be the Xuanxuan Shangren or the metaphysical Taiji.

• The genesis out of Tao, begetting one, two and then three (TTE Chapter 42) can be understood in two levels, that out of Tao came Wuji, and then Taiji (TTE Chapter 40), a dualism of ying and yang which with the original Taiji makes three, as in the Taijitu, the mechanism for all earthly creation from there on was in place. This ontological beginning was personified into the eight elders, made up of the Three Pure Ones and the Five Supremes having been transformed from Taiji, albeit there is no ying and yang differentiation amongst the two. Daode Tianjun or Laozi, Lingbao Tianjun, Jinmu or Wuji Shengmu are revered by Taoists. Beneath the elders, there is a long list of Chinese deities in the pantheon of gods worshipped by commoners as spiritual overlords who consider granting favours in return for devout following.

• Immanence is present in all beings (Qingjing Jing QJJ verse 6 and Xishen Jing XSJ Chapter 6 verse 1-6) in which Tao takes the form of natural order. Adherents are urged to contemplate on this as the teleological explanation for an intrinsic finality to humanity, in that the union with the original primordial state by transcendence of temporal existence (TTE Chapter 39, XSJ Chapter 4) intellectually, and practically by a method (suggested in TTE Chapter 39, XSJ Chapter 6 and 39) and amplified further in other text calling on the adherents to better the thoughts and deeds by way of Xiuzhen (TTE Chapter 5, 39), the observance of which is central to the teachings as the ideological way of life and beyond, for the adherents and the humanity. And that ideology must be complemented in practice with the adoption of the ethics of Tao which is De, the outward embodiment or countenance of Tao (TTE Chapter 27, 38, 51).

• In all the Taoism philosophical views exist in parallel with the practical, precepts and codes that are mutually inclusive or complementary to each other.

Again comments and discussion invited thanks.ACHKC (talk) 03:14, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

See my comments to the New intro section above. --Bradeos Graphon Βραδέως Γράφων (talk) 15:33, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Bradeos Graphon, Vassayna, Keaphana for the additions and the links. Too bad BG had to cut short the Jing Qi Shen overview sections etc. where I sought to balance another minority view against inserts by editors/writers asserting Taoism, Daojia was traceable to Zhang Daoling and to Quanzhen sect. There is no collective consensus today who and what sect/schools is the orthodox version of Taoism, but there is a consensus amongst practitioners about what Taoism is. Perhaps with your help in screening you could balance the picture (at the least avoid inaccurate reference say in Religions in China or Taoic Religion to Quanzhen) and to avoid misrepresentation to Wiki's readers.ACHKC (talk) 09:59, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I've done some trimming today. I'd like to find a source that compares elements of of Taoism with Greek philosophy, that would get those passages back in for me. I know of (but don't have) Democritus especially. --Bradeos Graphon Βραδέως Γράφων (talk) 12:09, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

On this I tried the same previously but the nearest would be inferences from Titus Burkhardt or Traditionalists which quite regrettably due to the lack of proper translated Taoist texts at their time, made little cross-references with TTC or Taoism, Guenon/Coomaraswamy did much more with Indian Religions, I am still reading on this lineage of scholars to find links. ACHKC (talk) 07:53, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

The School of Tao & De

I substituted Taoism with ---The school ..is called Daomen (TTC Verse 1 last stanza) or Daojia, based on TTC, rather the the collective but broader definition as Taoism that stands for all Taoist thoughts/practices/religiosity, hope that this is agreeable. ACHKC (talk) 03:56, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

just by way of hello...

I'd like to start doing some large-scale revisions of this article, but I wanted to bow in gracefully.  :-) mostly I'm after clean up, simplification, and de-jargoning, but I think there are some parts that should be excised and/or moved over to Taoism. I'm really seeing this article as shorter; more a reference article to explain the concept of tao, used for links from other pages.

let me know if I do anything unacceptable.  :-) --Ludwigs2 (talk) 23:57, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

---

I have removed the Etymology section, partly because of talk page comments (above) and partly because the entry given seems to be a direct copy of a Mirriam Webster entry, and might constitute copyright infringement. --Ludwigs2 01:44, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

03:13, 18 June 2008 (UTC) - I have made a fairly large revision of the 'characteristics of Tao' section. however, I am not satisfied that this revision captures the understanding of Tao that's held in religious Taoism (I've really only had exposure to philosophical taoism), and I'd appreciate it if anyone could make any necessary additions. or any other improvements, of course... --Ludwigs2 03:13, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Tao is a satire?

Anyone know about thing about this? Found this link that uses a vagues "some consider" and "others claim" to mention the word satire. http://74.125.95.104/search?q=cache:Hgq_0fuBJMkJ:https://scholarsbank.uoregon.edu/dspace/bitstream/1794/3777/1/taoist_vision.pdf+tao+satire+site:.edu&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us& Kevin143 (talk) 12:53, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Kevin143 (talk) 12:53, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Can anybody put

a Tao - main syllable - mediataion mantra on my talk page --Dralansun (talk) 05:37, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

do you mean something akin to the Hindu om? . there's no real equivalent in Taoism to Hindu meditative symbols, the closest, perhaps, being the taijitu - - and there are no Taoist mantras that I know of. different attitudes towards spirituality in taoism and hinduism. if you could tell me more clearly what you're looking for, though... --Ludwigs2 21:28, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Tao - a pub in Glasgow

much more succcint —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.41.241.2 (talk) 08:54, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

by me a drink there, and we'll talk about it. of course, that would involve plane fare... --Ludwigs2 19:18, 22 October 2008 (UTC)