Talk:Seasonal affective disorder/Archive 1

Treatment: Cognitive Therapy

i suggest to (re)ad the phrase

" In addition, recent studies of University of Vermont psychologist Kelly Rohan showed that cognitive therapy can relieve the symptoms of SAD. [17]"

this is important because people give only biological reasons and think they are stuck with their brain. it is often overlooked that sad patients profite from psychological help! (and there are studies that prove that)

I have suffered with SAD since my teenage years. I had no idea what the problem was but I did note that soon after autumnal equinox I would seem to have the sensation of a "sigh" stuck in my chest. It does not matter whether it happens to be a sunny day or cloudy day, it seems to be related to the suns angle in the sky, especially in the afternoon. My doctor started me on Zoloft and it made a HUGE difference. A little later I changed health plans and had to switch to Lexapro and that particular SSRI works even better than Zoloft. I don't care what anyone says about SSRI's, to me, they are simply a miracle drug. I am also a very good guitar player and singer who used to perform live. I haven't been able to play and sing in front of anyone for over 20 years but now I am very confident. Thank God for SSRI medications. The Vitamin D dificiency is an interesting Idea because I hate the taste of milk and NEVER drink it.

Surely is this caused by vitamin D deficiency? Crusadeonilliteracy 15:22, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Most people (in first world countries at least) get their vitamin D`from fortified milk now, because we spend so little time in the sun.

Greyweather 20:24, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

If we are going looking for a cause then the pineal is the most obvious candidate. There are direct links between the retina and the pineal and melatonin, a hormone produced in the pineal, is associated with SAD. --CloudSurfer 21:23, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I personally suffer from SAD and I honestly don't care what causes it. It runs in my family and although light therapy works a little it didn't have enough effect for me. I found something that works well for me, and that's medication. I am now on Lexapro, a SSRI, and it works wonders for me. I've found that Celexia also works but has more side-effects than lexapro. -- 11-12-2004

For me, the best cure is summer. --80.192.22.103 10:01, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

I've got something like the reverse, and I'll never understand why people get so happy in Summer when overheating is a constant threat making exercise nearly impossible, and the brightness making it impossible to see. I tend to get used to it, but when Winter rolls around there's a marked increase in overall joy and contentedness, as well as general activity.

Man, you are so right. Here in Texas, by the time late summer rolls around I have no desire at all to go anywhere or do anything -- even the constant hum of the air conditioning and its harsh dry air feel more oppressive than relieving. If I felt this way during winter, I could do light box or whatever, but us summer sufferers are just out of luck. Because as everyone knows, there ain't no cure for the summertime blues.

Quite a different story way up here in Montana. During the worst of winter the sun sets at around 5:45 and it's below zero a lot. I don't care how many layers you wear or how much you're outside in the sun, there is no way you can suffer from SAD and live here without much effect. There is truly nothing like a warm spring breeze and a sunny day after a very long, cold winter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.14.233.152 (talk) 02:27, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Rick Strom

"Musician Rick Strom has credited his most creative periods to SAD" I understand that this is just his opinion of which he is entitled to. However the statement does suggest the accompaniment of mania to this form of depression. Is it possible that during the summer months SAD suffers experience episodes of mania? Can anyone “shed some light” on this one for me?

yes! although this wiki article makes no mention of it, there does appear to be evidence of a "march madness" phenomenon, in which people (bipolar especially?) experience increased periods of hypo/mania starting in springtime each year. quick google result here check pubmed for more, and hopefully someone could/would update wiki article?

--Wedge 18:49, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I just came in here from "What Links Here" after an edit to Strom's entry. The above is interesting, but I can shed some light on his comment: he makes terribly depressing music, that's actually what he's known for. I'm not a psychologist so I don't know if mania is a requirement for a creative period (or if true depression is a major hinderance), but to a layperson, having heard his output, the statement fits pretty well. Soviyet 03:00, 15 September 2006 (UTC

Likewise living in Australia in the driest state SA in the driest continent in the world can also drive a person "round the bend" just as much as British Winter time does to someone from the Northern Hemispere,imagine you where stuck with nothing but intolerable heat for 4 months Its ugly.

Seasonal Affective Disorder

I become very depressed in the autumn and have for some time wondered if I suffer from this disorder also. However, I also seem to become quite depressed during spring. Can anyone advise if this is a feature of the disorder. Veronica

Hi Veronica,(15 02 07)

I am diagnosed with SAD which is my only qualification to be able to talk about the subject. It is common for SAD symptoms to present from August through to May. Indeed if the condition is not diagnosed it's fair to say that the worse time for SAD's is usually between January and May. However, diagnosis of SAD is difficult. My advice would be to speak with your GP and keep an open mind. One of the best books you can read on this subject is Winter Blues by Norman Rosenthal. It really is a must read if you suffer with SAD.

Hope that helps Darrell Tw 16:27, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

SSRIs as a cure-all?

I see SSRIs being promoted as a cure-all, and I note that wikipedia now claims that they are helpful in controlling SAD. I know quite a number of people who suffer from SAD and all of them say that SSRIs were less than helpful. Now, anecdotes do not make data, but is there any convincing, independant studies to show that SSRIs have anything more than placebo effect on SAD? (perhaps placebo is the wrong word, I should say, "any more effective than taking a random brain scrambling compound")

Personally my experience with SSRIs was scary and ineffective and I wouldn't like someone to consider them unless none of the simpler and more believable techniques sufficed. njh 08:25, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

20% of all Swedes - reference?

"Doctors estimate that about 20% of all Swedes are affected, and it seems to be hereditary." - I'd like a reference for that. I mean, I'm Swedish, and sure, many are depressed, but 20%?? Well. Anyway, I'd like a reference, please. /skagedal^... 01:46, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

What the Wikipedian was trying to say was probably not that 20% of us (swedes) suffer from SAD, but that 20% feel some seasonal effects on their mood, most in a lighter way than the ones who suffer from SAD. I think this is called SubSAD, and not looked at as a disease. I'll try to find some references and change the text. Hallogallo 10:42, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I happen to have a study about this, from which I quote:

"In the northern countries, there was a large and consistent decrease in activity, well-being and sociability during the winter, whereas in Saudi Arabia there was no significant variation between the different seasons. Fairly or very strong sadness was reported by 11 per cent of the working population in Sweden and England, but less than one per cent in Saudi Arabia. The symtoms became aggravated for individuals working in dark environments, whereas individuals situated less than two meters from a window benefited from the natural daylight diring fall and spring."

R Küller, S G Ballal, T Laike, B Mikellides "Shortness of daylight as a reason for fatigue and sadness - a cross-cultural comparison" Proceedings CIE 24th Session, Warsaw 1999, vol 1, part 2, pp 291-294.

Hope this helps clarify the issue.

Lorielle 03:44, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

ways to make sure this is it?

This sounds easy to be used as an excuse for people that simply like summers better. Until 18-24 years of age most people relate summer with "total freedom" and gaming because most schools shut down, let alone most workers get their longest vacation in summers. So, I'm concerned SAD may be used to hide other reasons of depression without a certain diagnosis. --161.76.99.106 14:56, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

--Is Diabetes just an excuse to get out of eating foods you don't like? Cancer an excuse to go for that bald look (through chemotherapy) you've always wanted without your friends making fun of you? I suppose mental retardation is just an excuse to get out of Calculus class, as well. Your argument, while I can see where you might get this idea from, is not valid. (Unsigned comment by 72.128.76.97, 27 December 2006.)

Or, you could read the topic that user put this under. If it didn't believe in SAD, why would it want to make sure that SAD "is it"? It sounds like the question wasn't "why are you all using this as an excuse to...something," but rather, "how do you tell if someone actually has SAD". That presupposes that SAD is for real. It's a perfectly valid question. I also fail to see how suggesting that another form of depression could look like SAD is supposed to be equivalent to saying that SAD is fictitious. If you have a non-seasonal depression, and you've been trained your entire life to think of summer as a good time and winter as a bad one, don't you suppose it's likely that your depression will seem seasonal at first glance? It may or may not happen in practice, but it's a question that makes sense to ask. I see nothing to be defensive about. --67.110.213.253 11:07, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

--I don't think it's mutually exclusive. Sure, people can use this as an excuse even if it's really the case. Just like many people DO use their current legimate ailments as excuses to not do things they're perfectly capable of. The only thing I would say about summer vs winter is that atleast in the US, most kids growing up also get vacation and unlike summer, you get presents! (Of course you also get in-laws, so that definitely could be more traumatic) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 15.238.95.37 (talk) 15:03, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

--I believe the cross-geographical studies shed some light in the validity of SAD. The summer of freedom happens everyhwere (I'm from South America), however the presence of SAD is negligible in those areas. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.247.158.120 (talk) 15:49, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

SAD

Does anyone else chuckle every time they read the acronym SAD? Could there be a more appropriate acronym for a type of depression? Xyzzyva 14:56, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

It's called a backronym. If the pineal is involved it is not the sole culprit in such a complicated system; unfortunately, though, very few studies have been performed on blind SAD-sufferers). The pineal is known to be stimulated directly by the retina, but what other stimuli can affect it? DrMorelos 02:10, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Once again, i'm not saying it doesn't exist, i'm just saying its possibly the stupidly named condition in the world. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.154.175.194 ([[User talk:--81.154.175.194 19:41, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

new topic: Research

i suggest adding a subtopic Research. There are a lot of different things going on. research on the betablocker propanolol (done by NIMH) as a medication for sad. There is also a study that shows the benefit of taking melatonin for s.a.d. people to reset theyre inner bodyclock. studies of the NIMH also show the benefit of "negative air ionization". as far as i know studies of the NIMH are quite serious, but i am not from the usa. if you want to, i can post here the links to these studies. but my english is not good enogh to write an article (but for sure i will translate it in german, maybe later on also in french and spanish.

as far as i know natalie imbruglia ("torn") suffered also under sad while she lived in england to do recordings for several years. thank you

new topic: symptoms

sad has very differnet symptoms than a "normal" depression. specially the carbohydrates "craving". in a normal depression you loose appettite. important is also that usually the worst month are december and january, the best beetween juin and august.

there is a sad variation in which the summer is depression linked and the winter is depression free.

maybe theres is also the option to have a topic: what kind of symptoms you must have bee be diagnosed with sad: at least 3(or 4?) month of absence of symptoms during the year. saisonal depression must occure during 3 years . the number of saisonal depression has to be higher than the number of "normal"depression. saisonal depression are not linked saisonal changing in life: example:stress because of saisonal unemployment.

if somone is able is to help me improve this site i would be very happy, my english is very poor i know, but i would give you the links to this information.

i deleted a sentence

i deleted this sentence: "Others have shown 456-476 nanometer blue light to be effective." this claims only one producer of bright light lamps, new studies show no benefit of "blue enriched" light (and it is seems also to be dangerous for the eyes)

Good. The same also goes for the claims by manufacturers of "full-spectrum" fluorescents for treatment of SAD. This whole "full-spectrum" fad seems to be pretty much a hoax, at least when it comes to SAD treatment. It all started as a misinterpretation of an incorrectly performed study by Rosenthal, 1984, where cool, bright "full-spectrum" fluorescent light was compared with warm, dim incandescent light and was found to be more effective. However, the effect has later been found to be due to the higher luminance and not to the cooler color of the FSFL.

Ref: McColl, S.L. & Veitch, J.A. (2001), "Full-spectrum fluorescent lighting: a review of its effect on physiology and health,” Psychological Medicine 31: 949-964.'[1]'

Lorielle 04:16, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

SAD - man Im a britt 26 years old, during my teen years i suffered with sevear winter blues, problems that i could deal with all year became insurmountable. when i was 23 i finally made the link between seasons and my mood and found that other people i knew felt similar symptoms but not to the extent that i did. One year i used st johns wort, this worked well but i'm not keen on taking pills everyday and found that they took about 2-weeks to take effect. Now I use sunbeds, and can feel my mood lift within a couple of days, i know there is health problems related to sunbeds but it beats wonedring through 4 months feeling tearful and having no energy. I would like to know if anyone has any idea why people should suffer from SAD, i joke that we should be hybernating, but really i do feel like i could sleep till spring, and it would make the lives of them closest to me easier. lol (Unsigned comment by 168.103.139.24, 5 January 2007.)

I personally don't think we who live in the north are meant be as active during the winter as in the summer time. Up until only 100 or so years ago, we were farmers and would spend most of the winter indoors (except for feeding & milking our cows and perhaps doing the occasional logging & wood-chopping). I personally don't get depressed during winter but I definitely become more introvert and tired. I only feel active and social during summer and wouldn't mind hibernating until May.

Lorielle 04:16, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Negative Ion Therapy

The part about Ion therapy sounds like pseudoscience to me. Anybody else have the scoop?

I didn't believe it at first either, but apparently its the real deal. I know because I work in a lab with one of the PhDs on those papers. She explained to me that man-made environments such as the interiors of buildings often have an excess of positive ions while natural environments such as beaches and waterfalls often have an abundance of negative ions. However, I am still waiting for a convincing proposal for the mechanism of action of the negative ions. Nathanaver 22:36, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I too have read into a lot of studies done on this subject...it, at first, seems like some kind of preschool magical idea dreamed up by Sharper Image. Apparently not...although I can't figure what effect negative ions would have on the body, it seems to actually work against the symptoms of Seasonal Affective Disorder. Weird, I agree, but true. Obviously more work needs to be done do find out why and how this works, though, and until then I doubt this treatment method will receive much credit. (Unsigned comment by 72.128.76.97, 9 February 2007.)

Hi Nathansaver,

I am diagnosed with SAD and that's the only qualification I have to talk upon the subject. Recently I stumbled upon the negative ion therapy thoughts and tried them out. I have a negative ion "quizmo" next to my bed. I have to say I feel it has been of some help and my sleep has improved. I don't see it as front line in my war with my condition. I've noticed I always prefer to sit in my car if the air-conditioning is on. Does this have any bearing on negative ions? My other weapons of war are a Dawn Simulator, Anti-depressants at a dose of 10mg of Cipralex per day, bright light therapy and simply the knowledge that when I feel low the feeling will abate and go.

I wouldn't be surprised if within the next 12 months Dawn Simulators are made available with negative ion generators built in. I've also noticed that keeping the bedroom temperature above 12 degrees helps too. I don't tolerate the cold too well, but that could be middle age coming on :-)Darrell Tw 16:44, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

This is a bit beyond my area of expertise but I would actually expect air conditioners to deplete the level of negative ions because they reduce the humidity. Of course there are many factors that go into determining mood, not the least of which is body temperature, so maybe the air conditioner helps with thermoregulation?

I'm happy to see you have so many tools to use against SAD, keep it up! Nathanaver 15:18, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Summer SAD

I am a summer SAD sufferer. So during summer, I have to find places that there are not a lot of natural sun and the temperature never climbs above 25 degrees Celsius. Though my summer SAD has more things to consider than sunlight and the heat, like feeling lonely because of summer holidays. That is easier to fix than the weather, but basically, that's the reason I learn to skate so I can stay away from the sun. (Unsigned comment, 5 April 2007, by 202.180.98.76.)

Vitamin D deficiency?

winter in finland= little sun little sun = low vitamin D low vitamin D = depression Esmehwp 18:12, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

WP:OR without a source WLU 18:17, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Googling appears to show lots of evidence, but I haven't looked closely. --GrimRC 82.21.33.232 (talk) 17:31, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

External Links

On what basis are the external links being maintained? There seems to be considerable bias towards one particular retailer at the expense of providing further information for readers. 81.149.220.28 12:44, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Links to sites that just exist to sell a product should be deleted. Links that provide or summarize information should be kept. See WP:EL for more info. What site are you referring to? WLU 14:39, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

OutsideIn provide little further information on SAD than what is provided here, other than their support forum which would make a more relevant link. The BriteBox website link has been deleted despite providing more relevant further information. Would you advise linking specifically to a page within the site with this information, or to the home page? 81.149.220.28 10:01, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Good point, removed. The forum makes it less useful as an EL, not more. Both are out, unless Britebox has a heavily referenced page somewhere within. Even then it's a stretch. WLU 10:50, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Would you consider this study on Seasonal Affective Disorder to meet that criteria? 81.149.220.28 11:29, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Not as is - it's not in a peer-reveiwed journal, it's published on a company website. It fails as a WP:RS. Were it published in a peer-reveiewed scientific journal and re-published on-line, the original journal citation would work. If you can find an alternate citation of the same study, it might work. WLU 23:58, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I hesitate to remove links, but wonder if anyone else agrees that the Lumie and the Litebox sites (External links, Resources) are really just too commercial? --Hordaland (talk) 16:50, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Why hesitate to remove links? If they're spam, they're spam and our external links guideline supports removing spam. The DMOZ compiles a lot of links and it's used because of this fact. I've removed the rest, here's my reasons:

• The Seasonal Affective Disorder Association (SADA) (UK-based charitable organisation)
  • Should be in the DMOZ, and why link to a single organization? International or nothing.
    • It is UK-based but international, and it is the only organization that is a charity aimed at helping people, rather than a company promoting a product Cesyavon (talk) 13:22, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
• Ivry, Sara (August 13, 2002). "Seasonal Depression Can Accompany Summer Sun". Retrieved 2007-07-17. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |source= ignored (help) (about reverse-seasonal affective disorder)
• "Getting SAD Is More Than Having The Blues". January 25, 2007. Retrieved 2007-07-17. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |source= ignored (help)
  • These two should be integrated as an in-line citations rather than an EL.

The other links I removed as spam - pubmed has a search feature that's a much better source for articles on SAD than some company website, and we're not here to advertise for a company selling light boxes. WLU (talk) 17:22, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I'm too new here to be real sure. Appreciate your help.

Once upon a time, Apollo, which retails light boxes, did have a decent list of studies. They may still have, I haven't looked. It could be of interest to point to such a collection, tho for inline citations an individual study should be used or, of course, a good review.

Must admit I find the whole SAD thing confusing. The other circadian rhythm disorders are now correctly seen as primarily physiological rather than psychological. I don't see why SAD hasn't followed with them into the physiology column. --Hordaland (talk) 06:57, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Apollo's list of studies wouldn't really work either, pubmed articles are better choices. A list of studies would be useful for the talk page, to be integrated to the main page as inline citaitons. WLU (talk) 17:37, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Reverse Seasonal Effective Disorder

I seem to suffer from this, and there is hardly any mention of it in the article. shouldnt there be a little bit more, or possibly its own article? The Umbrella Corporation 01:51, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I also have suffered from RSAD for many years (with anxiety being the most prominent effect). It is true that the overwhelming majority of resources completely ignore the existence of Reverse Seasonal Effective Disorder (or, as my psychiatrist, who has this as well, calls it: SAD Type 2). When it *is* mentioned, it's often as an offhand comment, and all treatment focuses on winter-depression SAD. That's currently where this wiki stands. I'm scouring the net for articles and references. The unfortunate thing is that, since studies focus on winter SAD, statistical references are nearly impossible to find. Medical knowledge of RSAD seems to presently be purely anecdotal. --EmmettTheSane (talk) 21:11, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Another anecdote. I don't think I qualify for RSAD but I definitely have DSPS, a circadian rhythm sleep disorder (CRD). Everyone it seems, including doctors, have told me in March or so every year, something like "You should now be feeling better, as the days are getting longer." I think it's this expectation which (partially) explains why early summer is not my best time.

Also, it seems not entirely logical that (the rest of) the CRDs got moved from mood disorder to neurological while SAD didn't. Even though "only" about half of us with DSPS have or have had psych diagnoses as well, it seems to me that SAD actually belongs to the CRDs. Hordaland (talk) 01:50, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

SAD and Vitamin D

New information is available regarding the complex interaction between Vitamin D and body tissues. ("Cell Defenses and the Sunshine Vitamin", L. E. Tavera-Mendoza & J. H. White, Scientific American, November 2007, http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa006&colID=1&articleID=8B8ACB9D-E7F2-99DF-35E10D1D3B2F1E59)

The biologically active form of Vitamin D (1,25D) is known to regulate over 1000 different genes and at least a dozen tissues and cell types. I do not doubt that at some point 1,25D will be linked directly with serotonin production and/or production of other chemicals influencing mood. I recommend that those who live in northern latitudes take supplemental Vitamin D3 (~1000 IUs/day) in the Jan-Mar time frame! Dave 16:07, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I read the article too. Since then I've been taking 800IUs a day, and I have felt happier and more energetic, although this could be due to the placebo effect perhaps. By the way, I have stopped taking a daily mutivitamin tablet as the evidence suggests they are on balance bad for you - taking too much of a vitamin makes it toxic. And in relation to Icelanders not getting so much SAD - if they eat a lot of fish, then there is Vitamin D in fish. 80.0.101.168 (talk) 15:30, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

"[T]aking too much of a vitamin makes it toxic" is much too strongly stated, I believe. That applies to some vitamins, not all vitamins. --Hordaland (talk) 17:40, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't see why Vitamin D isn't mentioned in the article somewhere. There's a study floating around that compared vitamin D supplementation and bright light therapy, and vitamin D was shown more effective. It also compared 800IU to 4,000IU and the latter was better. For what its worth, I've been "afflicted" with this, where I get very lethargic and depressed during the winter, so I went to get a SpectraCell test done. The test measure cellular levels of vitamins and minerals, and what do you know, I had a severe deficiency of vitamin D. Only three days after I began taking it did I notice *drug-like* effects. Anecdotal, sure, but I think this needs to be said in the article as there is a wealth of information on vitamin D and SAD.

Vitamin D is now mentioned at the end of the treatment section but the final sentence "However, one study did not show a link between vitamin D levels and depressive symptoms in elderly Chinese.[31]" seems worthless and misleading since the referenced news item implied that none of the 3620 subjects were known to have SAD ie seasonal symptoms. I suggest we delete just that sentence. Rod57 (talk) 17:16, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Other chemicals beyond D3

It is often assumed - but not shown that all the health effects of the sun are due to D3. (Some might be due to the lowering of the provitamin ( 7-dehydrocholesterol). Somewhere I read that there were a total of 10 known photo-chemicals generated by the sun shining on the skin. I have not been able to find the source of that information - thus I'm mentioning it in the talk section in hope someone else knows of the source I read and might post it in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.243.106.82 (talk) 03:55, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

At http://www.noblechiropractic.com.au/news/free-vitamins-for-life/ , a similar claim is attributed to Holick's book "The Vitamin D Solution", apparently paraphrased by a blogging chiropractor:

Latest research has identified 10 other “photo-chemicals” i.e. vitamins similar to vitamin D that are also produced in skin cells when the skin is exposed to Ultraviolet B (UVB) light rays. The purpose and importance of these vitamins is currently unknown but they are now the focus of cutting edge research.

No idea if any of this has been published in a reliable medical text or journal. —Patrug (talk) 05:55, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Lack of Seasonal Mood Change in the Icelandic Population: Results of a Cross-Sectional Study

[[2]] Maybe this should be included om the part about SAD in scandinavia —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bis111 (talk • contribs) 19:34, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Just a thought, but maybe it is due to evolution. People with it in the country either do not get into relationships because they are depressed or commit suicide before having kids. Over the hundreds of years they've be there this could have happened. The same effect would be so in the Northern European countries because they can move and mix with the rest of Europe easier. --Stripy42 (talk) 19:11, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Removing a sentence

Removed this sentence: "Particularly in high latitudes (50°N or S) it is common for people to experience lower energy levels." As it stands, this doesn't make much sense. Obviously, there are both lazy and energetic people at all latitudes. Hordaland (talk) 21:06, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

If you look at the reference, it may be talking about energy levels for physical exercise. However, the abstract doesn't really justify the comment (though the full article might). You could ask the person who originally added it. WLU (talk) 21:14, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Removed faulty ref (which was added by myself in 2007). --Hordaland (talk) 13:20, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Documentation

Hello, My name is Irene Warner

I am a new Wikipedian. I need some help with documentation. According to the Mayo Clinic, needs a footnote number 2. And reference #22 needs to have the book title underlined. I could not find anyway to do that. I deleted the information in the last sentence of the introduction becaue the source was not cited correcty. The last sentence was corrected in the symptoms section. Irenewarner (talk) 21:41, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

How to add a section to the article

Hello, it's Irene Warner again. I would like to add a new section to the article but don't know how to do that. Please give me thank you.Irenewarner (talk) 21:45, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

New section is easy. Put its title on a line for itself, preceded and followed by double "equal" sign. See all the other sections when in edit mode; that's how their titles look.

BTW, both you and I were editing the article at the same time >> edit conflict. I tried to reconcile changes made by both of us, but may have missed some. --Hordaland (talk) 22:05, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

"Coping with..." Section Removed

I removed the "Coping with Seasonal Affective Disorder: Common-Sense Solutions for Living with SAD." section. It was unreferenced and Wikipedia is not a manual. -Hairsquare (talk) 01:07, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I am in the process of putting the references in. I would appreciate it if you can leave my additions alone for several days. I am fulfilling an assignment for school, and my instructor needs to see that I fulfilled the assignment. Thank you very much.Irenewarner (talk) 02:17, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid even with proper quoting and references, the section still reads like an instruction manual, which is specified by Wikipedia policy as something Wikipedia is not. I think if it was written in a way to briefly mention methods that medical doctors (or others) typically suggest rather than actually suggesting those methods itself, it would be more acceptable. In its current form though, it doesn't fit with Wikipedia. -Hairsquare (talk) 02:56, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Help me get my added sections in acceptable format.

Insert non-formatted text here

In the symptoms section, I documented where I got the information from. How do I change it to make it acceptable.

In the coping section, not all of the information is from one source. Part of it is from May Clinic and part of it is from a journal article.

I am very new to this experience so some guidance and suggestions would be helpful.

Thank you Irenewarner (talk) 02:14, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Irene, you are asking for help. I'm going to suggest that you need to spend some time reading articles here to get a feel for what writing style is considered acceptable. Find some on illnesses, syndromes and disorders -- and their treatments. Maybe the circadian rhythm sleep disorders, as they are somewhat related to SAD. You won't (I hope) find many articles saying Do this, Don't do that, Exercise regularly. You will likely find a formulation like Regular exercise may be helpful. You may find something like:

Studies, such as the one at Whatever University in 2003(ref), have shown that avoiding XYZ-behaviour is important because blah-blah-blah.

Lists are in some cases acceptable, but usually regular paragraphs are better.

Good luck! --Hordaland (talk) 04:54, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Cabin fever

Someone has added this link to this article with no explanation. I can see no relationship between these topics and am removing it. --Hordaland (talk) 07:29, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Reverse SAD disenfranchised

I returned to this article after a few months to discover that all direct references to Reverse SAD (summer depression) had been removed, so this article was again only pointing to WINTER-depression based SAD.

Irene (and others): please avoid deleting references to RSAD. Believe it or not, the existence of us summer-depression sufferers actually helps to legitimise the winter-depression form of SAD, since it provides evidence that the same type of depression isn't based on a pattern of school holidays or other traditional associations.

Above comment added 29 June 2008 by the redlinked user EmmettTheSane. --Hordaland (talk) 09:59, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

"Scandinavian depression"

I'm removing this new "synonym" for SAD. Google has 108 hits for "scandinavian depression": about theater and the arts, about economic depression, and about SAD, including, of course, blogs. Has any research paper used this term? It can always be added back in if/when it catches on in the medical/scientific community. --Hordaland (talk) 10:05, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Negative ion ad copy should be removed

Someone is trying to sell negative ion generators in this section. The cite they have given does not support their claims. Ions were given in a study with natural dawn light (which does work). The conclusion of the study that both natural dawn light (a product as well as a process) and negative ion generation both work is unsupported, since each is a counfounding variable to any claim of efficacy of the other.

The ad claim here is harmful, as well as unproven. Ion generators are cheap to make and hawked as cures, but in fact ground-level ozone is a harmful pollutant.

Unless and until it is later supported by a reliable study, the ad claim about negative ion generators should be removed.

The study is doubly doubtful because it was performed by a guy who sells negative ionizers.

Terman, M.; Terman, J.S. (2006). "Controlled Trial of Naturalistic Dawn Simulation and Negative Air Ionization for Seasonal Affective Disorder". American Journal of Psychiatry 163 (12): 2126–2133. doi:10.1176/appi.ajp.163.12.2126. PMID 17151164. 17151164. Retrieved on 2007-05-12.

Compare article in About.com:

Winter 2006-2007 SAD Treatment Update From Dr. Michael Terman, for About.com Updated: October 10, 2007 About.com Health's Disease and Condition content is reviewed by the Medical Review Board in which Dr. Terman reports that he is the author of the study in question, and lists negative air ionization as a placebo control:

""The December 2006 issue of the American Journal of Psychiatry reports my clinical trial of the three methods, including a placebo control, low-density negative air ionization."

However in the synopsis M. Terman prepared for PMID 17151164 he listed a conclusion that ionization was an active antidepressants -- a conclusion hardly supported by the study, even taken on its face:

"CONCLUSIONS: Naturalistic dawn simulation and high-density ionization are active antidepressants that do not require the effort of postawakening bright light therapy. They can be considered candidate alternatives to bright light or medication."

Finally, Dr. Terman's About.com article contains a click-through to a commercial site.

This seems as though Dr. Terman may have taken advantage of the opportunity to very loosely word his conclusions (which presumably are not peer reviewed) in the service of a commercial enterprise. Since Dr. Terman was also, apparently, in possession and control of all the data at the point when he collected it, his data as well as his conclusions seem suspect. But even if negative ionization had antidepressant benefits, they are outweighed by negative health effects. Other means of fighting SAD, including light, don't have these effects.

In conclusion, the whole section has been jimmied into an ad for an enterprise .

The above unsigned comment was added by anon 66.167.61.188 today, and this is the only contribution by this anon so far. I haven't yet checked the allegations, but I will. Terman is a well-known name in the field. --Hordaland (talk) 20:46, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, it's hard to know what to say about the above rant, especially as it doesn't link to the exact location on About.com, and M.Terman is very active there. In my experience, the ads on the pages there are "linked" to what I've searched on and also to my location. (Or did you, too, see an ad for a Norwegian electrical firm which produces and markets light boxes? Namely: www.tynsetel.no)

The Termans have been testing negative ionization for SAD since at least 1998, according to this reference at About.com:

Terman M, Terman JS, Ross DC. "A controlled trial of bright light and negative air ionization for treatment of winter depression." Archives of General Psychiatry 55 (1998): 875-882.

In the above comment by 66.167.61.188 I see no evidence at all for the claim that Dr. Terman is "a guy who sells negative ionizers". I have no reason to believe that that claim isn't nonsense. (At least he is trying to sell them http://www.cet.org/air-ionizers-contact-form/ ) and he (the non-profit CET of which he is a/the boss) certainly sells light devices. It's a non-profit, I don't know the details of where the income goes.

66.167.61.188 has not carefully read the study referred to. I have read about it before, and the About.com article I found indicates that high concentrations of negative ions gave good response while Terman's placebo treatment, low concentrations, gave very little response. That agrees with the abstract linked in our article's reference. The 99 subjects were divided into 5 groups for a 3-week trial, each group receiving one of the following: bright light, dawn simulation, dawn pulse, high-density ions, or low-density ions. The fifth "treatment" mentioned was the placebo.

Unless 66.167.61.188 can back up her/his claims or show that I'm misreading the abstract of the 2006 study, her/his comment is of no worth at all.

Sorry if I'm 'biting a newbie', but this is how the situation looks to me. - Hordaland (talk) 21:47, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Seriously?

Are people actually expected to believe this is a real condition and of high importance in the wiki psychology project? MOST people experience "SAD" during the Winter and occasionally during the Summer, and most mammals do too. It's hardly worthy of it's own psychological condition or of high importance. Zanotam - Google me (talk) 17:45, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

I wonder why there isn't a section refuting SAD as a legitimate medical or psychological diagnosis. There are plenty of professionals that do not believe "SAD" is an actual disorder, or that it exists at all. Something should be added to indicate this reality. 76.28.195.113 (talk) 01:31, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

On Wikipedia, just talking about what you believe to be a "reality" won't lead to any change in the article (as I presume you know). Is there a review article or perhaps a report from a recent conference or the like, stating that many professionals believe what you say? With good sources, Wikipedia articles routinely report controversies in a field. - Hordaland (talk) 10:58, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Zanotam: Merely as a matter for discussion, what do *you* feel is a valid reason to consider something a "disorder". If something causes people to be unable to function as society expects them (such as getting up an hour earlier with "daylight savings time", or operating on a daytime schedule at all during the summer), does it then qualify as a disorder? As someone with both of those difficulties, I am interested whether the actual disorder is within me or the society that wants most of its members to conform to very similar schedules regardless of the health difficulties it imposes (for that matter, infrastructure difficulties -- imagine how much clearer roads might be if we all worked different schedules). On the other hand, classifying it as a disorder may provide better near-term solutions, since it's easier to change what an individual does than an entire society. It also opens up the door for discussions with employers about flexible work schedules, office environments more suited to particular needs (I once turned my cube into a dark cave to cut out excess light). EmmettTheSane (talk) 11:42, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

I came to this page and was surprised to see not one single section devoted to criticism of the 'disorder'. I would like to see some alternate viewpoints up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.35.166.150 (talk) 16:52, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

So who "first identified/described" SAD?

From the lede:

Seasonal affective disorder (SAD), also known as winter depression or winter blues, is a mood disorder first identified ten centuries ago by Avicenna...

From "Nordic countries":

Winter depression is a common slump in the mood of some inhabitants of most of the Nordic countries. It was first described by the 6th century Goth scholar Jordanes in his Getica...

The latter is cited, while the former is not (and indeed is tagged as such); additionally, the latter is a few hundred years before the former, which makes me think the lede should be rewritten. Nevertheless, the article is currently self-contradictory. COmments? Andrew Jameson (talk) 15:14, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Not having access to the ref for the 2nd claim, I'm leaving it there. Have removed "first identified ten centuries ago by Avicenna[citation needed]," from the lede. Mention of him can be put in somewhere, if source is found. Thanks for pointing out this mess. - Hordaland (talk) 17:32, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

The Avicenna bit was my fault. I am desperately trying to remember where I read it. I've read quite a few of Avicenna's works and have so many books and articles on him, and I know it's referred to in one of them as he being the first to identify it. I'll try and dig this out, but it may not be easy... he wrote so much! Tris2000 (talk) 16:50, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, if the 2nd claim (first described by the 6th century Goth scholar Jordanes) is correct, then Avicenna can't have been the first anyway. For this particular syndrome I can't see that it matters much. Millions of people have no doubt noticed the "winter blues"; so the question is only about which of them first was quoted in writing. - Hordaland (talk) 18:35, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

As someone who doesn't know much about psychological topics (I was reading this article to learn, as a matter of fact), I can think of a couple reasons it might matter. First, it's interesting and useful to know that this was identified pre-20th century. Second, I sort of assume that "first identified" means "first wrote about it"--writing disseminates knowledge, and a few individuals "noticing" the winter blues doesn't have the same impact on general human understanding as someone writing it in a book for future reference. Andrew Jameson (talk) 11:41, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

You are so right that it is important to know that such a disorder was noted (long) before the 20th century. It's all-too-easily discounted, not least because of its cute name 'sad'. - Hordaland (talk) 11:53, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

I have added a bit of detail in the intro section on how SAD was first formally described and named as such by Rosenthal at the National Institute of Mental Health. Will soon add a little more detail on the early work of another scientist.Early morning person (talk) 15:50, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Roots of SAD

Seasonal Afffective Disorder (SAD)is commonly related to the type of sun's rays people are exposed to. In cold months of the year there are no UVB rays which are a direct sunlight beam. UVA sunlight beams are the only type people, plants, animals reeive on their skin in the cold months unless they live or vacation near to the equator. UVB sunlight rays are essential to the body and mind of humans and animals because they allow the production of Vitamin D3 in the skin. This is the main reason many people need phototherapy or light therapy in the cold months of the year. There are other forms of Vitamin D (see vitamin D in Wikipedia) mushrooms, oily fish like herring or sardine, or salmon. We could also take a vitamin supplement but make sure it is vitamin D3 because that is the most potent form. SAD is most commonly found in northerly areas during the colder months of the year. People with darker skin are more likely to be affected by SAD because they are more use to UVB rays by genetic inheritance, in other words their ancestors lived near to the equator. I would like to list some early signs of vitamin D deficiency caused by lack of UVB light exposure and hope some other people would contribute to these early signs. Nail growth is poor and nails become brittle, feeling extremely irrritable and not in need of socializing or sex, frequent overeating and indigestion of the nature of constipation. I feel the mind can actually see what goes through the gastointestinal tract, when vitamin D is under consumed the mind simply consticts the gastrointestinal tract untill more vitamin D is consumed. In conclusion, before we had access to alternative types of vitamin D I believe early humans who lived in areas a greater distance from the equator where extremely light skin colored and hibernated due to the SAD effects of the lack of UVB rays of the SUN. 72.171.0.145 (talk) 21:37, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

SSAD/RSAD (Summertime Depression or Summertime Blues)

Over a year ago, I put the first notes about summertime depression into this article. At first, all referenced to non-winter SAD were removed. I put them back with references (which was the reason someone removed them), and am delighted to see that they've stuck and gained a little bit of information. Sharing information is what this is about, right?

What I want to know next: sufferers of SSAD/WSAD (summer/winter season affective disorder): do you consider yourself a "morning person" or a "night person"? I suspect that there may be a link between "night people" and SSAD sufferers.

EmmettTheSane (talk) 13:31, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

• "Surprisingly, some studies have shown that diurnal preference is not a factor in SAD." is from this PDF.
• A somewhat strange (IMO) study asks: does eye color affect chronotype? Effect of Iris Pigmentation and Latitude on Chronotype and Sleep Timing: "The delayed chronotype and sleep phase of dark-eyed subjects suggest that an iris-pigment-based ocular gating mechanism modulates the circadian Zeitgeber signal."
• Otherwise, nobody seems to pay attention to the question of chronotype and (summer) SAD, as far as I've found. Interesting question! - Hordaland (talk) 17:38, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Horland: That's quite interesting. I am blue eyed, and would classify myself as both RSAD and a "night person" (which is oddly MORE widely reckognised by the medical community). Anecdotally speaking, I've been surprised to find other night people who don't find summer especially hard (except possibly for shorter nights). I've recently met a sleep scientist socially, and he seemed interested on investigating the topic of RSAD more. Nothing to add to the main article at this time, however. EmmettTheSane (talk) 11:56, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

i was going to ask the same thing. i have a similar experience to you - being a night person and disliking the sumer months (i have a bit of an aversion to bright light altogether). i don't know what exactly a "dawn simulator" is, but reading it made me think that (W)SAD sufferers are generally early risers. would be interesting to see more research on this. k kisses 20:50, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

This article is not suffering from Systemic bias

Not every article that focuses on the Northern climes has a systemic bias. Obviously a condition exacerbated by seasonal shifts will be more prevalent in North America and Europe than in other places, simply because the seasonal shifts in light and temperature are greater in those places. This is not systemic bias. The descriptions and statistics from Europe balance the American ones quite well here. I need a really good reason to keep that systemic bias banner. Mdw0 (talk) 07:56, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

pollen

no one has considered pollen disorders,not food labled,try cutting down on its exposure and food consumtion during the summer and see what withdrawel effects you get in the winter,we are not like most birds who migrate for pollen all year round — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paulbown (talk • contribs) 08:16, 19 November 2012 (UTC)