Talk:Martin Luther/Archive 17

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Where is Satan or the Devil

One of the key premises of significance about Martin Luther, aside from his translation of the Bible and his jettison of the 'Reformation', is his strong and sturdy belief in a dual world that includes Satan or the Devil. This is quite importance to the context of the time so that formative minds can understand why the witch persecutions (aside from the Peasants War) may have occurred. Unfortunately, for so my many contributors to this article, history should not be what you may have sporadicly gleamed from it, but also what actually occurred. There should be significantly greater coverage of Luther's concern and writings about the Devil (Satan)... Best Regards... Stevenmitchell (talk) 23:11, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, Dr Luther's "strong and sturdy" belief in a "world that includes the Devil" (dualism is a different thing which, except in name, apparently did not enter your question) were shared by just about anybody at the time period, and is shared by all traditional (i.e., "orthodox" in the sense Chesterton uses the word in the book of the same name) Christians at this very moment, among whom I may include my unworthy person. What happened in the witch persecutions was, first, a downfall of reasonable trial (for the charge of having used witchcraft, e. g. a spell, was first of all just that, a charge); second, a mass hysteria; and then, third, perhaps also something about actually wrong beliefs concerning witches which I lack both the knowledge and the place here to go into detail; anyway if anybody says "we must not believe the Devil exists because people have murdered umpteen thousands in witch hunts" it is not an argument because, it doesn't affect truth if people knowing it do evil. --93.135.33.66 (talk) 16:02, 20 May 2012 (UTC) (Catholic)

Protestant church leaders usually aren't 'priests'

In the introductory section it says 'allowing Protestant priests to marry'. The word priest has a complex history and is a 'red button' topic in this area; it would be more accurate and helpful to refer to something else - 'leaders' might be the easiest solution. Ender's Shadow Snr (talk) 07:48, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Agreed, it might be better to use Pastors, as this is near universal in Protestant denominations to refer to ordained clergy. Otherwise, you could use Ministers for an even more generic term.ReformedArsenal: ὁ δὲ θεὸς 18:14, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
Clergy in the Lutheran and Anglican traditions are still refered to, although protestant, as priests. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 21:37, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
Affirm Willthacheerleader18 here. "Pastors" and "Ministers" are preferred in Reformed traditions (who of course also are protestants). There are quite some differences between Reformeds and Lutherans regarding organisation. Rursus dixit. (mbork3!) 12:57, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Possible Error?

Reference 161 says, “(B)y 1529, in On War against the Turk, he was actively urging Emperor Charles V and the German people to fight a secular war against the Turks.” However in my understanding he was against any type of war and advocated non-resistance in Vom Kriege wider die Türken (On War against the Turk) though he modified his stance from non-resistance to armed defense when Ottomans had invaded German lands and proceed to Vienna. Heerpredigit wider den Türken (Military Sermon against the Turk) was published just months after Vom Kriege wider die Türken. So it’s not On War against the Turk but Military Sermon against the Turk, where Martin Luther urged armed resistance. --Cyril Thomas (talk) 19:25, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Books on Luther

I think that it should go somewhere in this article that there have been more books about Martin Luther than any other figure except Jesus Christ. ACEOREVIVED (talk) 20:43, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't think so. That would be promoting a cause, and WP should be neutral (WP:NPOV). Rursus dixit. (mbork3!) 13:02, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
Assuming that this is a fact that can be verified (Not sure that it is), what is non-neutral about stating a verifiable fact? ReformedArsenal (talk) 14:20, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
Assuming this is a verifiable fact, it should be on the article. I might however be unsure and just throw in the names of St. Mary, St. Francis, Caesar*, Napoleon. (* And that would include the whole Asterix series...) --91.34.239.205 (talk) 13:47, 24 August 2012 (UTC) (Catholic)

Introduced on False Premise

The first glaring false premise is in the second sentence: "He strongly disputed...could be purchased for money." At no time did the Church profess an ipso facto connection between payment and forgiveness. Universally, no group's members live up to its ideals and this was dark epoch of Christendom rivaled by few, although nowhere approaching the singular darkness of Iscariot's "sale for money" of our Lord. Donation of money is even today expected, i.e. tithing, but at that time, with threats to Europe and Christendom all about, the slow pace of construction of St. Peters Basilica lead some predatory (frequently itinerant) religious to the misrepresentation of the applicability of various indulgences. Again, no ipso facto connection leading from payment to indulgence was ever promulgated by Papal or Magisterial pronouncement or any other official Church dictum. Promulgation of the stipulated would necessitate its being ex-Cathedra, on its face scripturally rendered inconceivable, notably Peter's condemnation as related in Acts (8) of Simon the Magus' proposal of payment of money for Apostolic Chrismation / infusion of the Holy Spirit. (I believe that some Protestant theologies may say rather that what he sought was ordination .) Stephenbnagy (talk) 09:18, 4 November 2012 (UTC)Stephenbnagy

Possible POV?

Is this section: "free gift of God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ as redeemer from sin" a NPOV?, for me it doesn't seem like it, but I cannot explain why.. 190.60.93.218 (talk) 19:15, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Why is the Augsburg Confession listed under "Controversy"?

I don't understand why the Augsburg Confession is in the "Controversy" section. thx1138 (talk) 19:02, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Changes I reverted

I don't necessarily oppose, but the changes were not minor... and an image and an article tag were removed without explanation. Please make the edits in detail, and explain somewhere?Unfriend13 (talk) 23:23, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

No Germany in the 16th Century

There was nothing like "Germany" in the 16th century. So I changed "he was born in eisleben, germany, holy roman empire" to "eisleben, saxony, holy roman empire". There was nothing like a german nation before 1871. Eromae (talk) 10:49, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

"Do you know what the Devil..." quote needs quotation marks.

"Do you know what the Devil thinks..." quote under the section "Return to Wittenberg and Peasants' War" needs quotation marks. It's a rather lengthy quote and as such the lack of quotation marks hits you in the face like a flail. - Nugma (talk) 20:44, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Sort-of-done - it was block quoted. However, the image to the left was interfering. I tried rearranging images, no help. Finally moved the image to the right. It isn't pretty. A smarter editor may have a better solution.Unfriend13 (talk) 01:31, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Do we really think...

That anyone is going to especially confuse Dr. King with his namesake from the middle ages? Really? The Disambiguation page is in place... that seems adequate. Just killing the additional listing for Dr. King once, but I oppose: not needed, not required by any guideline I know of, clutters the header, already dissambiguated. - Unfriend13 (talk) 03:15, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

It's actually a fairly common misconception, at least as far as I have seen. Does it really clutter the header that much? Yangosplat222 (talk) 18:14, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
... no, it is already there. Adding it a second time... yes... that is pretty "cluttery". But as I said... only taking it out once.Unfriend13 (talk) 20:33, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
I oppose as well. One disambiguation link is enough. Icarus of old (talk) 21:20, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Lead summary

This summary is problematic because it fails to distinguish between historical and modern antisemitism. The distinction is outlined by an article in the Jewish Virtual Library:

"...Luther's comments [are] better seen as part of tradition of Medieval Christian anti-Semitism. While there is little doubt that Christian anti-Semitism laid the social and cultural basis for modern anti-Semitism, modern anti-Semitism does differ in being based on pseudo-scientific notions of race. The Nazis imprisoned and killed Jews who had converted to Christianity: Luther would have welcomed them."

I am not certain how we should make this distinction in the lead, but to readers whose knowledge of antisemitism is limited to modern times, "Luther became increasingly antisemitic..." categorically groups him with those who subscribe to a different ideology.   — C M B J   05:17, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

See wp:LEAD - we don't.Unfriend13 (talk) 16:20, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
The body of the article does not substantiate this implication, if that's what you're saying, but we would still need to correct the body even if it did.   — C M B J   21:30, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
1st point - you are correct, the detail about his antisemiticism has been removed from here at some point.
2nd point - yes it does need correction to include the removed parts but I don't care that much, if you want to change the lead, I will not revert it, but I will tag it. The position that antisemiticism is ok because it isn't the currently-unpopular version is incorrect.Unfriend13 (talk) 21:57, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
Actually, I am just going to drop the article from my watch list.Unfriend13 (talk) 21:59, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
I am not by any means taking the position that medieval antisemitism can be justified. However, it is important for an encyclopedia to distinguish between different ideologies.   — C M B J   08:19, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
Seems to me the current last paragraph is worded pretty well, and makes it clear that his bigotry was religious rather than racial. Do you still find it problematic"? Rumiton (talk) 12:28, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
Yes. It was racial and religious. However, that content has been whitewashed out of the body of the article.Unfriend13 (talk) 17:40, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
Martin Luther and antisemitism - please consider reverting your removal of "antisemitism" from the lead.Unfriend13 (talk) 17:43, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
OY gone from there as well... his later views have simply been washed away. *shrug* Unfriend13 (talk) 17:52, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 26 July 2013

Martin Luther nailed his protests against Catholic doctrines to the door of Wittenberg’s cathedral in 1517. This is according to my AP US History Textbook. Chapter 3 Settling the Northern Colonies from The American Pageant 12th Edition 209.179.35.196 (talk) 14:23, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Signalizing (talk) 18:07, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Luther opposed instruments?

Note: I posted much of this in the Talk:A Mighty Fortress Is Our God. I suppose my justification for this, however lame that there is no Music of Martin Luther (yet), hence I'll post similar here on an article of the man and there, perhaps his best known hym.174.137.237.65 (talk) 18:51, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

A while back while doing a quick reading on the A capella article, it said that Martin Luther opposed instruments, so I posted this on the article's talk page, citing the A Mighty Fortress article. The sources saying that he opposed them, i.e. “^ Martin Luther, Mcclintock & Strong's Encyclopedia Volume VI, page 762,” are off-line. When I used them in a Google search, I quickly got this, Bible Topics In The Christian Library, a site that seem to oppose instrumental music, but it had an interesting quote allegedly from Luther: "The organ in the worship of God is an ensign of Baal. The Roman Catholic borrowed it from the Jews." Now while any new information on this page could be used over there, and thus I might or might not be violating some WP rule on spamming–if such was the only reason. However, it might also be used here, assuming it would be alright to cite that while Luther wrote hymns, at least one that is often identified with organs and instrumentals, that Luther himself opposed such, assuming of course, if such is true and useful to the article. Thank you.174.137.237.65 (talk) 18:51, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Bad health

We are told in the fourth paragraph that Luther was in poor health. This is an attempt to minimize his anti-Jewish remarks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Antimasskillers (talk • contribs) 15:20, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Luther a drinker?

I found this an interesting statement but would strongly suggest that it requires clarification with clear and credible citation:

Under the Heading: Depiction of Luther - "His large body also let the viewer know that he did not shun earthly pleasures like drinking".

The statement results in a hypothesis that anyone with a "large body" to be a drinker - even as a hypothesis this makes no sense at all. Furthermore it appears to be a controversial issue when noting the number of web resources supporting or rejecting this statement as fact.

41.13.120.57 (talk) 20:27, 15 September 2013 (UTC) Sytze Visser

Edit request on 19 November 2013‎

Under external links please add:

Commentarius on psalmos Davidis Manuscript of Martin Luther's first lecture as Professor of Theology at the University of Wittenberg, digital version at the Saxon State and University Library, Dresden (SLUB) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Slubdd (talk • contribs) 08:42, 19 November 2013‎ (UTC)

Done. Thanks. (by the way, it's "in", not "on") --Stfg (talk) 10:43, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 January 2014

Footnote 23 (and subsequent instances) only identify this source as "Froom 1948." The full reference is: Le Roy Edwin Froom, The Prophetic Faith of our Fathers, 4 vols. (Washington, D.C., Review and Herald Publishing Association, 1948), 2:243. Hope this helps! Velirotta (talk) 20:08, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

 Fixed by RoyBurtonson (talk · contribs). Thanks, LittleMountain5 20:59, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

New Legacy section

I added a section heading for Legacy/commemorations so readers could pick it up quickly. Frankly, if the saints infobox was used instead of the current one, that probably wouldn't be necessary.

Plus, I don't have time to edit the article, which IMHO has pretty heavy organizational issues (tho not as bad as Wycliffe yesterday). Anyhow, given my lack of deep knowledge of the very historically important subject, combined with my dislike for philosophical and theological minutiae, I'm not about to touch it further. But for historical figures, distinguishing between their life and acts, on the one hand, and their intellectual or artistic legacy on the other, is a way of organizing articles. Using the legacy section with subsections about Luther's effects on (founding of) the Protestant (or Lutheran at least) churches on the one hand, and fomenting of long-lasting antisemitism in the region, for example, could be a way of organizing some of the sections which seem more properly subsections.....Jweaver28 (talk) 00:32, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

LUTHER NEVER HAD A DRINKING PROBLEM!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.174.173.202 (talk) 00:07, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 October 2014

83.220.199.251 (talk) 10:39, 9 October 2014 (UTC) luther was known to be homosexual

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. NiciVampireHeart 15:53, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

OSA after Luther's name deleted

I have deleted the initials OSA for Ordo Sancti Augustini (or in English the Order of Saint Augustine) after Luther's name at the beginning of the article. Luther was indeed an Augustinian friar at Erfurt from 1505 to 1512, but he of course left the monastery, married a former nun, and was thereafter vehemently opposed to monasticism and mandatory celibacy. He most certainly did not die an Augustinian friar any more than he died in communion with Rome. If someone leaves the Jesuits (and indeed also becomes a Protestant), no one would list that person as John Doe, SJ in a biographical article. Thus listing Luther as Martin Luther OSA is rather absurd. IACOBVS (talk) 23:38, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 March 2015

I NEED TO EDIT THIS

TherealSkyFallGaming (talk) 16:37, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Not done: this is not the right page to request additional user rights. You may reopen this request with the specific changes to be made and someone will add them for you, or if you have an account, you can wait until you are autoconfirmed and edit the page yourself. Kharkiv07Talk 16:57, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Notable work

On the Jews and their lies is a glaring omission from Luther's list of notable works. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bagist (talk • contribs) 05:33, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Templates added

This article is often not written with a neutral point of view (NPOV) and at times appears to veer into polemics. This article was formerly rated a Good Article, but that status has been withdrawn. An expert is needed to revise this article about this very important historical and theological person so it meets a higher standard. IACOBVS (talk) 14:54, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Dates

It appears all the dates in this article are prior to the introduction of the Gregorian calendar in 1582. Are they Old Style or New Style dates? It may be useful to know for when a reader is trying to correlate events in the article with events in other articles. — QuicksilverT @ 18:12, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Antisemitism, Continued

Hello, I've edited here on wikipedia before but I couldn't remember my username and password, so I'll go anonymous for right now. The thing I wanted to to bring up was the fact that in Luther's last sermon, he spoke much more diplomatically about Jews, as explained here:

That, in that light, we [the LCMS] personally and individually adopt Luther's final attitude toward the Jewish people, as evidenced in his last sermon: "We want to treat them with Christian love and to pray for them, so that they might become converted and would receive the Lord" (Weimar edition, Vol. 51, p. 195).

I think it would be a good idea for fairness' sake to include this because, though it doesn't erase the things he said, it at least explains where he stood just before he died. Let me know what you guys think of this. I'm not sure what book the article was quoting, so I just put the link here instead of trying to add the info myself and putting the reference in. Thanks. -184.21.131.95 (talk) 01:00, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

Medieval Christian Church vs Roman Catholic Church

"...was a German professor of theology, priest, former monk and a seminal figure in the Protestant Reformation. Luther came to reject several teachings and practices of the Medieval Western Christian Church."

Don't you think it should be replaced with the Roman Catholic Church? Its clear people at that time did not refer to it as we do today, but for christ sakes, when someone talks about Protestantism or anything linked to it we refer to a "break from the Roman Catholic Church", not Medieval Christian Church.Ernio48 (talk) 18:56, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

Better yet, this lede sentence links the term "Church" to a disambiguation page. "Medieval" has nothing to do with Luther. He was born too late to experience the Middle Ages as we understand them.

Following the East–West Schism (1054), there is no reason to avoid using the terms "Catholic" or "Orthodox". The event counts as the birth date of the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church as distinct entities. Dimadick (talk) 21:34, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

The term Roman Church probably was around then, but it was likely a dangerous practice to use the word. The Eastern Church did not indulge in the vices of Rome and even allowed many of its clergy to marry, depending on the order. Does Luther make any statements about them?203.221.157.17 (talk) 01:52, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

Genetics?

Hello: there's information about the population genetics of many celebrities, such as president Thomas Jefferson, the Adolf Hitler relatives, they even say having a mtDNA from JesusChrist Himself, from the Sindone, but if someone could provide info about the genetic ethnic background of Martin Luther, this may help in knowing more from his personality and cultural environment and roots. Also the genetics of Abraham and the Patriarchs, their tomb's place is known, would be very interesting knowing. Thanks. Regards, + Salut--Caula (talk) 19:06, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Luther and Anti-Semitism

Contributors seem to want to make Luther's anti-Judaism a central theme. His views were not unusual for his times and it is anachronistic to contemporary views on someone who lived five centuries ago. I have moved comments to a new section. However, these comments need to be balanced. Luther thought that with the Reformation Jews would embrace a reformed Christianity - no longer tainted by what he deemed the idolatries of Rome. This of course did not happen and his anti-Judaic polemics reflect his frustration. He was not an anti-Semite. This refers to the Jews as a race and this is a modern concept that would have been unknown to Luther - as would the concept of racism itself. IACOBVS (talk) 16:31, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Yes, perhaps the older term "Judenhass" would be more appropriate, but modern readers generally consider any hatred of "the Jews and their lies" to be antisemitism, regardless of whether the expression is anachronistic or not. --jpgordon::==( o ) 19:04, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
I concede the point. I certainly do not excuse the later Luther for his anti-Jewish vitriol and indeed lamentable Judenhass. I acknowledge that late 19th and 20th century German and later Nazi anti-Semites made full use of Luther's polemics. IACOBVS (talk) 11:49, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
Is it really anachronistic when protestants were the ones who voted for the Nazis? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.67.57.204 (talk) 06:34, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

I agree with IACOBVS. First of all Luther was voicing typical anti-jewish comments at the time. More important: The anti-judaism notions are hardly relevant for his influence and legacy. The emphasize in the introduction here is misplaced. All the content in the article associating Luthers 15th century legacy with 20th century Nazism is misplaced either. Matzkalt2 (talk) 21:48, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

If you agree with IACOBVS why do you keep deleting sourced text? The Nazis definitely used Luther's commentary as further reasoning behind Jewish persecution. If you want to slim it down in the lead and make it less wordy, by all means do so, but don't just delete it. His commentary on Jews had far reaching implications in later centuries, though I would guess he would be appalled that his name was tied to the Holocaust, yet that does not change that he is tied to the Holocaust. If we really have consensus among editors that the text should be removed from the lead, then so be it, but it seems hasty at this point. Give people time to respond. This is a recurring topic, let's get it right. Lipsquid (talk) 02:47, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

The content about the Third Reich references are misplaced in this article. With the same reasoning you could mention Hitlers love of German shepard dogs in an article about the animal. As IACOBVS declared, the anti-judaist comments of Luther happened centuries earlier. During the lifetime of Luther it almost had no impact. Even hundred years after Reformation it had no impact. The purpose of an introduction is to present the issue. Not its interpretation. After one week nobody questioned the rationale of the deletion. And I was obviously not the only one. Matzkalt2 (talk) 18:47, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

German

How is Luther exactly German? since there was no unified Germany back then. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.166.30.3 (talk) 09:05, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

Funny - was about to post the same thing! He was a Saxon, not German at all. It seems history has been re-written in regards to Germany, and I'm certain any attempts to correct these errors on Wikipedia would be quickly reverted with some nonsense excuse. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.18.60.19 (talk) 18:09, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

The English term "German" has referred to the German-speaking population of the Holy Roman Empire since the Middle Ages. Certainly, Luther falls into that category. --jpgordon𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇 14:59, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
Common consensus among various experts on the subject is that Luther was German. We're not going to challenge it on wikipedia. End of story.Ernio48 (talk) 21:57, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

Westboro Baptist Church

I removed a relatively detailed description of the Westboro Baptist Church and its stance on Luther. I think these sentences were a case of undue weight being given to a fringe hate group which has very limited influence. I fail to see how the opinion of this group should be of any note. --Hazhk (talk) 23:24, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

I think that it tells us more about the continued influence of Luther after all this time than it does about Westborough Baptist Church. Britmax (talk) 21:14, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

Hans Luder vs. Luther

Martin Luther changed his name from Luder to Luther about 1518. But his fathers name remained the same - Hans Luder. Someone may please correct the text under the parents picture. -later Luther- behind Hans Luder is wrong. Hans Luder never changed his name.--195.71.17.71 (talk) 23:11, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

That's an interesting article but is it a reliable source for Martin changing his name and not his father? I was considering making the change to the picture caption because his father is definitely referred to by Luder, but I want to make sure we are being true to reliable sources. —DIY Editor (talk) 23:23, 30 December 2016 (UTC)
You are not expecting a source that is confirming Hans Luder never changed his name along with his son Martinus Luder right, or a source that something did not happen. "Portraits of Hans and Margarethe Luther " under the picture must be changed to Luder. Please understand that "Luder" in German has some negative touch. Media want to avoid the name change subject, this year he has to be celebrated. Its like a hot potato and you dont find many articles regarding the name change at all.--77.7.78.149 (talk) 01:06, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
There are not many articles about it from good sources. My impression is that Hans Luder did not change his name, that it was only Martin who did, but from the state of the article I feel like editors had a different impression, since it explicitly says "Hans Luder (or Ludher, later Luther)". I was going to make the change but I am still not comfortable that we have reliable sources on this, and I can not check the source for the statement regarding Hans being Ludher, later Luther. —DIY Editor (talk) 02:40, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
Its not about the impression of editors, Hans Luder never changed his name, otherwise deliver a source, that he did so. Its not about painters that want to avoid the name Luder (translates to slut/bitch). The meaning (niederdeutsch) didnt change a lot over the years I think you understand why people/editors avoid his name change and sometimes even as the fathers real name. To be exactly Martinus Luder changed his name in November 1517 and about 500 years later, this year, he is going to be praised and celebrated.--195.71.19.236 (talk) 15:00, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
I feel like we are just repeating ourselves. I have checked each of the sources you linked and they were not clear on this topic (or said essentially nothing about it). However, in the article right now after "Hans Luder (or Ludher, later Luther)" there is a citation of a book which I don't have access to, and I have not been able to find any other clear references on the topic, so I am not going to change how it reads. —DIY Editor (talk) 18:28, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

On his death bed, Martin Luther converted to Catholic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 105.63.88.35 (talk) 06:45, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 11 July 2017

The chapter "Final years, illness and death" is incorrect and should be completely updated; or at least, there should be added also the (more historical) version that Luther committed suicide. I enclosed the sources and references between [], numbered from 1 to 10. The text to add would be the following:

While the official Protestant version narrates that Luther died of a natural death, a contemporary German scholar, Dietrich Emme, offers a very different version. In his book “Martin Luther, Seine Jugend und Studienzeit 1483-1505. Eine dokumentarische Darstelleng “[1 ibid. Javier Oliviera Ravasi; “Martin Luther: Youth and Years of Study from 1483 to 1505. Bonn 1983”], he points out that Luther committed suicide, and he is not alone in taking this stance. Likewise a Freudian psychoanalyst, M. Roland Dalbiez, in his study "Luther’s Anguish" [2 Roland Dalbiez, L’angoisse de Luther, Tequi, Paris 1974], attributes him "... a very serious neurosis of anguish, so grave that one may wonder whether it has not been due to a border-state between neurosis on the one hand and “suicide raptus” on the other, a teleological anti-suicidal automatism.” [3 Luigi Villa, Martin Lutero, Homicidal and Suicidal, Civilta, Brescia s/f, 5(http://www.chiesaviva.com/lutero%20omicida%20e%20suicida/lutero%20homicida%20y%20suicida.pdf)]

Indeed, Luther had suicidal tendencies as it can be corroborated in his own “Tischreden” (“Table Talk”), where one of his conversations with Pastor Güben Leonhard Beyer, in 1551 is documented: “He told us that when he was a prisoner the devil had wickedly tormented him and that he had laughed heartily when he (Luther) took a knife in his hand, saying: "Go ahead! Kill yourself!". (…)This has happened to me very often, so much as to put a knife in my hand... and what evil thoughts came to mind in this way, so evil that I could no longer pray." [4 Luigi Villa, op. cit., 12 13]

As Fr. Villa points out, “Luther, then, did not die a natural death, as has been falsely written in all the history books of Protestantism, but died as a suicidal, hanged from his bed after a splendid dinner, in which, as usual, he had drunk too much and was satisfied with food beyond all bounds!”[5 Luigi Villa, op. Cit., 17]

There are various testimonies, Protestants and Catholics, about Luther's desperate gesture. Here is the principal, that of his personal servant, Ambrose Kuntzell (or Kudtfeld) who, struck in the soul by that terrible punishment of God on His master, endowed with the confession of all the particulars. This is his testimony: "On the night before his death, Martin Luther let himself be overcome by his habitual intemperance and in such excess that we were obliged to take him, completely drunk, and place him in his bed. Then, we retired to our bedroom, without sensing anything unpleasant! The next morning, we went back to our lord to help him get dressed, as usual. Then – oh, what a pain! – we saw our master Martin hanging from the bed and strangled miserably! His mouth was crooked, th right part of his face was black, his neck was red and deformed. Facing this nasty show we were all in great fear! We run without delay to the princes, his guests on the eve, to announce to them that execrable end of Luther! Those, terrified like us, commanded us immediately with a thousand promises and with the most solemn oaths, to observe, on that event, an eternal silence, and that nothing about it should be leaked. Then they ordered us to remove the horrible corpse of Luther from the halter, to place it on his bed and to later divulge, in the midst of the people, that "Master Luther" had suddenly abandoned this life!" [6 Ibídem, 16. The text in Latin can be seen in Heinrici Seduli ex Ordine Minorum, Praescriptiones adversus haereses, Officina Plantiniana, Antwerp 1606, 257 pp. (online version here: http://bajarlibros.co/libro/f.-heinrici-seduli-ex-ordine-minorum-praescriptiones-adversus-haereses/bwjIJTfTtzjt2o2G/)] This is the story of Luther's suicidal death made by his home servant Kudtfeld, witness of the events and man of confidence of the "reformer", which was published in Aversa in 1606 by the scientist and historian Sédulius.

Jaques Maritain, the famous French philosopher converted to Catholicism, pointed out that Dr. De Coster, who examined Luther's corpse, observed that the deceased’s mouth was crooked, with the right side of his face black and his neck red and deformed, as if in fact he died strangled. This diagnosis can be seen on an incision that Lucas Fortnagel realized the very next day after Luther's death, reproduced in Maritain's book. [7 Maritain’s informations are contained in the French edition of his book "Three Reformers", page 49]. An interesting coincidence is that Maritain narrates in the same book that several friends, companions and first disciples of Luther also committed suicide, relating an extensive list.

Likewise the Oratorian priest Bozio, in his book “De Signis Ecclesiae”, published in 1592 [8 Tomás Bozio, De signis Ecclesiae, Pedro Landry, Lyon 1593-1594, 3 vols], pointed out that one of the reformer’s household indicated that his lord was found hanged from the columns of his bed; Dr. Géorges Claudin says the same, and published in the "Medical Chronicle" [1900, p. 99] the text of the deposition of the housekeeper, from which the following is essential: "By the glory of Christ, I will reveal to the great day what I saw and announced to the princes of Elsleben: Martin Luther let himself go to his inclination, so that we had to take him away in a state of complete drunkenness and put him in bed... The next day, going to my master to help him to dress up, I found him, oh what a pain! He, my master, hanged to his bed, literally strangled. I went to inform the princes who averted me not to talk to anybody about this incident." [9 Géorges Claudin, La mort de Luther, Noisy-Le-Sec, Paris 1900, 99 (http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k9323938.r)].

Luther, therefore, did not die of natural death as falsely written on all the books about the history of Protestantism, but committing suicide, in his own bed, after an abundant dinner where, as usual, he had drank and stuffed himself with food beyond any limit. A contemporary historian tells that a heap of devils, under semblance of crows, flew around his body cawing fearfully, and then accompanied him to the tomb! There is another historical episode: "In Graz (Austria), a Franciscan Father, in one of his preachings, had stated that Luther was damned... One evening, on the pretext of administering a sick person, a man came to look for him... Instead of being in front of a sick person, the Franciscan Father found himself at the presence of five men who, showing him a revolver, told him that if he did not give evidence that Luther was in hell, he wouldn't have left the room alive. The Religious, true man of God, deposed the Blessed Sacrament, which he carried with himself, and set himself in adoration; then, he recited the prayers of exorcism... Suddenly, someone knocked on the door. "Come in," said the men - but no one came in! A few moments later, however, the door opened, and Luther, incandescent like a hot coal, entered the room. He was in the middle of two other demons! The five men took flight..."(10 See B.C. 63, 4, 1982)

Paradoxically that February 15, 1546, feast of the Chair of St. Peter, he, who had railed against the Church, the Papacy, and the Catholic doctrine, voluntarily abandoned his mortal life at three in the morning, the anti-hour of Redemption that Our Lord Jesus Christ brought to us on Calvary. Christus Vincit! (talk) 14:55, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

Not done: per WP:TLDR. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 01:12, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 September 2017

Add the word "leaders" after fifth word in first line of third paragraph under MARRIAGE. From: Some priests and former religious had already married

to: Some priests and former religious leaders had already married Karl.altenburg (talk) 15:59, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

Done DRAGON BOOSTER ★ 16:10, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
The term "religious" in this context is not an adjective, but rather a noun referring to those who are members of a religious order, such as monks or nuns. I've modified the sentence to make that clear. Indyguy (talk) 17:56, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 October 2017

In the Birth and Education section, it reads: "One friend blamed the decision on Luther's sadness over the deaths of two friends." This is incorrect. In the source (Martin Marty's bio), the reference is actually to Luther's father's two friends who died. Marty uses that to explain why the elder Luther, who opposed his son's entrance into the monastery, should bother to come and to donate money to the order. Luther did lose a friend, and his two contemp. biographers (Melanchthon and Cochalaeus) both suggest the death of this friend as a potentially contributory factor in Luther joining the monastery. I would change the line to: "One friend thought Luther's sadness over the death of a friend persuaded him to become a monk." MLucio (talk) 17:02, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. SparklingPessimist Scream at me! 19:42, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 October 2017

Please amend the wording relating to Luther's views on Jews. Hatred to the point of wishing destruction of a race is not 'antagonism', it is racism, and in this context, antiSemitism.MS0017 (talk) 21:34, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

Not done: No sources provided and no clear request stated. Seraphim System (talk) 21:42, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 October 2017

Collapse unformatted wall of text

References and notes 1. • "Luther, Martin" , JewishEncyclopedia.com; cf. Luther's Works, American Edition, 55 vols., (St. Louis and Philadelphia: Concordia Publishing House and Fortress Press, 1955–86) 47:267. • • Martin Luther, "Luther to George Spalatin Archived 2007-07-02 at the Wayback Machine.," in Luther's Correspondence and Other Contemporaneous Letters, trans. Henry Preserved Smith (Philadelphia: Lutheran Publication Society, 1913), 1:29. • • Luther quoted in Elliot Rosenberg, But Were They Good for the Jews? (New York: Birch Lane Press, 1997), p.65. • • Martin Luther, "That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew," Trans. Walter I. Brandt, in Luther's Works (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1962), pp. 200–201, 229. • • Martin Brecht, Martin Luther (Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 1985–1993), 3:336. • • Luther's letter to Rabbi Josel as cited by Gordon Rupp, Martin Luther and the Jews (London: The Council of Christians and Jews, 1972), 14. According to [1], this paragraph is not available in the English edition of Luther's works. • • Heiko Oberman, Luther: Man Between God and the Devil (New York: Image Books, 1989), p.293. • • Marcus, Jacob Rader. The Jew in the Medieval World, p. 198, cited in Michael, Robert. Holy Hatred: Christianity, Antisemitism, and the Holocaust. New York: Palgrave Macmillan, 2006, p. 110. • • Michael, Robert. Holy Hatred: Christianity, Antisemitism, and the Holocaust. New York: Palgrave Macmillan, 2006, p. 117. • • Michael, Robert. Holy Hatred: Christianity, Antisemitism, and the Holocaust. New York: Palgrave Macmillan, 2006, p. 110. • • [2] p.18. • • Jewishencyclopedia.Com – Josel (Joselmann, Joselin) Of Rosheim (Joseph Ben Gershon Loanz): • • Luther, Martin. On the Jews and Their Lies, 154, 167, 229, cited in Michael, Robert. Holy Hatred: Christianity, Antisemitism, and the Holocaust. New York: Palgrave Macmillan, 2006, p. 111. • • Obermann, Heiko. Luthers Werke. Erlangen 1854, 32:282, 298, in Grisar, Hartmann. Luther. St. Louis 1915, 4:286 and 5:406, cited in Michael, Robert. Holy Hatred: Christianity, Antisemitism, and the Holocaust. New York: Palgrave Macmillan, 2006, p. 113. • • Michael, Robert. Holy Hatred: Christianity, Antisemitism, and the Holocaust. New York: Palgrave Macmillan, 2006, p. 112. • • Michael, Robert. "Luther, Luther Scholars, and the Jews," Encounter 46:4, (Autumn 1985), p. 342. • • Michael, Robert. "Luther, Luther Scholars, and the Jews," Encounter 46:4, (Autumn 1985), p. 343. • • Luther, Martin. On the Jews and Their Lies, Luthers Werke. 47:268–271; Trans. Martin H. Bertram, in Luther's Works. (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1971). • • Luther, Martin. On the Jews and Their Lies, cited in Michael, Robert. "Luther, Luther Scholars, and the Jews," Encounter 46 (Autumn 1985) No. 4:343–344. • • Luther, Martin; Rydie, Coleman, ed. (18 February 2009). On The Jews and Their Lies . lulu.com. ISBN 978-0557050239. Retrieved 9 February 2015. • • Singer, Tovia (2010). Let's Get Biblical. RNBN Publishers; 2nd edition (2010). ISBN 978-0615348391., Singer, Tovia (2010). Let's Get Biblical - In depth Study Guide. Outreach Judaism (1998). ASIN B0006RBS3K . • • Luther, Martin. On the Jews and Their Lies, translated by Martin H. Bertram, in Luther's Works (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1971), 47:267. • • Martin Brecht, Martin Luther, 3 vols. (Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 1993), 3:371. • • Ibid., 3:350. • • Weimar Ausgabe 51:194–196; J.G. Walch, Dr. Martin Luthers Sämmtliche Schriften, 23 vols. (St. Louis: Concordia, 1883), 12:1264–1267. • • Ibid. • • Shapiro, Judith. "The Shetar's Effect on English Law - A Law of the Jews Becomes the Law of the Land", THE GEORGETOWN LAW JOURNAL, Vol. 71:1179ff, (1983) • • Luther's Works, Jaroslav Pelikan, Helmut T. Lehmann, Christopher Boyd Brown, Benjamin T.G. Mayes, eds., 75 vols., (Minneapolis: Augsburg Fortress Press; Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1955– ), 58:458–459. A 20 volume extension of the 55 volume collection of Luther's Works has been begun by Concordia Publishing House: volumes 58, 60, and 68 have been published. • • Johnson, Paul. A History of the Jews, p. 242. • • Mark U. Edwards, Jr. Luther's Last Battles: Politics and Polemics, 1531–46 (Ithaca, NY: Cornell University Press, 1983), pp. 135–136. • • Wallman, p. 78. • • "The assertion that Luther's expressions of anti-Jewish sentiment have been of major and persistent influence in the centuries after the Reformation, and that there exists a continuity between Protestant anti-Judaism and modern racially oriented antisemitism, is at present wide-spread in the literature; since the Second World War it has understandably become the prevailing opinion." Johannes Wallmann, "The Reception of Luther's Writings on the Jews from the Reformation to the End of the 19th century", Lutheran Quarterly, n.s. 1 (Spring 1987) 1:72–97. • • For similar views, see: • Berger, Ronald. Fathoming the Holocaust: A Social Problems Approach (New York: Aldine De Gruyter, 2002), 28. • Rose, Paul Lawrence. "Revolutionary Antisemitism in Germany from Kant to Wagner," (Princeton University Press, 1990), quoted in Berger, 28; • Shirer, William. The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1960). • Johnson, Paul. A History of the Jews (New York: HarperCollins Publishers, 1987), 242. • Poliakov, Leon. History of Anti-Semitism: From the Time of Christ to the Court Jews. (N.P.: University of Pennsylvania Press, 2003), 216. • Berenbaum, Michael. The World Must Know. (Baltimore: Johns Hopkins University Press and the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, 1993, 2000), 8–9. • • Grunberger, Richard. The 12-Year Reich: A Social History of Nazi German 1933–1945 (NP:Holt, Rinehart and Winston, 1971), 465. • • Diarmaid MacCulloch, Reformation: Europe's House Divided, 1490–1700. New York: Penguin Books Ltd, 2004, pp. 666–667. • • Bernd Nellessen, "Die schweigende Kirche: Katholiken und Judenverfolgung," in Büttner (ed), Die Deutschen und die Judenverfolgung im Dritten Reich, p. 265, cited in Daniel Goldhagen, Hitler's Willing Executioners (Vintage, 1997). • • Christopher J. Probst, Demonizing the Jews: Luther and the Protestant Church in Nazi Germany , Indiana University Press in association with the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, 2012, ISBN 978-0-253-00100-9 • • Himmler wrote: "what Luther said and wrote about the Jews. No judgment could be sharper." • • Ellis, Marc H. Hitler and the Holocaust, Christian Anti-Semitism" Archived 2007-07-10 at the Wayback Machine., (NP: Baylor University Center for American and Jewish Studies, Spring 2004), Slide 14. "Archived copy" . Archived from the original on April 22, 2006. Retrieved 2006-04-22. • • Noble, Graham. "Martin Luther and German anti-Semitism," History Review (2002) No. 42:1–2. • • Michael, Robert, "Christian racism, part 2" , H-Net Discussions Networks, 2 Mar 2000. • • Helmut T. Lehmann, gen. ed., Luther's Works, Vol. 47: The Christian in Society IV, edited by Franklin Sherman, (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1971), iii. • • cited in Franklin Sherman, Faith Transformed: Christian Encounters with Jews and Judaism, edited by John C Merkle, (Collegeville, Minnesota: Liturgical Press, 2003), 63–64. • • Bainton, Roland. Here I Stand: A Life of Martin Luther, (Nashville: Abingdon Press, 1978), 299. • • Paul Halsall's introduction of excerpts of On the Jews and Their Lies • • Wallmann, Johannes. "The Reception of Luther's Writings on the Jews from the Reformation to the End of the 19th Century", Lutheran Quarterly, n.s. 1, Spring 1987, 1:72–97. • • • Wallmann, Johannes. "The Reception of Luther's Writings on the Jews from the Reformation to the End of the 19th Century", Lutheran Quarterly, n.s. 1 (Spring 1987) 1:72–97. Wallmann writes: "The assertion that Luther's expressions of anti-Jewish sentiment have been of major and persistent influence in the centuries after the Reformation, and that there exists a continuity between Protestant anti-Judaism and modern racially oriented antisemitism, is at present wide-spread in the literature; since the Second World War it has understandably become the prevailing opinion." • Michael, Robert. Holy Hatred: Christianity, Antisemitism, and the Holocaust. New York: Palgrave Macmillan, 2006; see chapter 4 "The Germanies from Luther to Hitler," pp. 105–151. • Hillerbrand, Hans J. "Martin Luther," Encyclopædia Britannica, 2007. Hillerbrand writes: "[H]is strident pronouncements against the Jews, especially toward the end of his life, have raised the question of whether Luther significantly encouraged the development of German antisemitism. Although many scholars have taken this view, this perspective puts far too much emphasis on Luther and not enough on the larger peculiarities of German history." • • Ellis, Marc H. Hitler and the Holocaust, Christian Anti-Semitism" Archived 2007-07-10 at the Wayback Machine., Baylor University Center for American and Jewish Studies, Spring 2004, slide 14. Also see Nuremberg Trial Proceedings , Vol. 12, p. 318, Avalon Project, Yale Law School, April 19, 1946. • • Hillerbrand, Hans J. "Martin Luther," Encyclopædia Britannica, 2007. • • Brecht 3:351. • • Johannes Wallmann, "The Reception of Luther's Writings on the Jews from the Reformation to the End of the 19th century", Lutheran Quarterly, n.s. 1 (Spring 1987) 1:72–97. • • Siemon-Netto, The Fabricated Luther, 17–20. • • Siemon-Netto, "Luther and the Jews," Lutheran Witness 123 (2004) No. 4:19, 21. • • Hillerbrand, Hans J. "Martin Luther," Encyclopædia Britannica, 2007. Hillerbrand writes: "His strident pronouncements against the Jews, especially toward the end of his life, have raised the question of whether Luther significantly encouraged the development of German anti-Semitism. Although many scholars have taken this view, this perspective puts far too much emphasis on Luther and not enough on the larger peculiarities of German history." • • For similar views, see: • Bainton, Roland, 297; • Briese, Russell. "Martin Luther and the Jews," Lutheran Forum (Summer 2000):32; • Brecht, Martin Luther, 3:351; • Edwards, Mark U. Jr. Luther's Last Battles: Politics and Polemics 1531–46. Ithaca, NY: Cornell University Press, 1983, 139; • Gritsch, Eric. "Was Luther Anti-Semitic?", Christian History, No. 3:39, 12.; • Kittelson, James M., Luther the Reformer, 274; • Marius, Richard. Martin Luther, 377; • Oberman, Heiko. The Roots of Anti-Semitism: In the Age of Renaissance and Reformation. Philadelphia: Fortress, 1984, 102; • Rupp, Gordon. Martin Luther, 75; • Siemon-Netto, Uwe. Lutheran Witness, 19. • • Berger, Ronald. Fathoming the Holocaust: A Social Problems Approach (New York: Aldine De Gruyter, 2002), 28. • • Rose, Paul Lawrence. Revolutionary Antisemitism in Germany from Kant to Wagner. Princeton University Press, 1990. Cited in Berger, Ronald. Fathoming the Holocaust: A Social Problems Approach. New York: Aldine De Gruyter, 2002, 28. • • Lucy Dawidowicz. The War Against the Jews, 1933–1945. First published 1975; this Bantam edition 1986, p.23. ISBN 0-553-34532-X • • Robert Michael, "Luther, Luther Scholars, and the Jews", Encounter 46:4 (Autumn 1985), pp. 339–56. • • Völkischer Beobachter, August 25, 1933 cited in Steigmann-Gall, Richard. The Holy Reich: Nazi Conceptions of Christianity, 1991–1945. Cambridge University Press, 2003, pp. 136–7. ISBN 0-521-82371-4 • • Steigmann-Gall 2003, p. 137. • • Bernd Nellessen, "Die schweigende Kirche: Katholiken und Judenverfolgung," in Büttner (ed), Die Deutchschen und die Jugendverfolg im Dritten Reich, p. 265, cited in Daniel Goldhagen, Hitler's Willing Executioners (Vintage, 1997). • • William Nichols, Christian Antisemitism: A History of Hate (Northvale, NJ: Jason Aronson, 1995), p. 271. • • William Shirer, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1990), 91, 236 • • Uwe Siemon-Netto, The Fabricated Luther: The Rise and Fall of the Shirer Myth, (St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1995), 17–20. • • Richard Steigmann-Gall, The Holy Reich: Nazi Conceptions of Christianity, 1919–1945, (Cambridge University Press, 2003), p.138. • • Richard (Dick) Geary, Who voted for the Nazis? (electoral history of the National Socialist German Workers' Party, in History Today, October 1, 1998, Vol.48, Issue 10, pp. 8–14. • • William L. Shirer, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, (New York: Simon & Schuster, 1990), p.236. • • Roland Bainton, Here I Stand: A Life of Martin Luther (Nashville: Abingdon Press, 1978), p. 297. • • Richard Marius. Martin Luther: The Christian Between God and Death, (Harvard University Press, 1999), 377. • • James M. Kittelson, Luther the Reformer: The Story of the Man and His Career, (Minneapolis: Augsburg Publishing House, 1986), p. 274. • • Halsall, Paul, ed., Internet History Sourcebooks Project . (Retrieved April 25, 2006) • • Halsall, Paul, Medieval Sourcebook: Martin Luther (1483–1546) , Internet History Sourcebooks Project, Fordham University. (Retrieved January 4, 2005) • • Rupp, p. 76. • • Heiko Oberman, The Roots of Anti-Semitism in the Age of Renaissance and Reformation (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1984), p.46. • • Richard Marius, Martin Luther: The Christian Between God and Death (Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1999), p.482. • • Hitler, Adolf, Mein Kampf, Volume 1, Chapter VIII Among them must be counted the great warriors in this world who, though not understood by the present, are nevertheless prepared to carry the fight for their ideas and ideals to their end. They are the men who some day will be closest to the heart of the people; it almost seems as though every individual feels the duty of compensating in the past for the sins which the present once committed against the great. Their life and work are followed with admiring gratitude and emotion, and especially in days of gloom they have the power to raise up broken hearts and despairing souls. To them belong, not only the truly great statesmen, but all other great reformers as well. Beside Frederick the Great stands Martin Luther as well as Richard Wagner. • • Wilhelm Röpke (1946). The Solution to the German Problem. G.P. Putnam's Sons. p. 117., as cited in Waite, Robert G. L. The Psychopathic God: Adolf Hitler, pp. 251, Da Capo Press, 1993, ISBN 0-306-80514-6 • • > Waite, Robert G.L. The Psychopathic God: Adolf Hitler. New York: First DaCapo Press Edition, 1993 (orig. pub. 1977). ISBN 0-306-80514-6. • • Luther, On the Jews and Their Lies, quoted in Robert Michael, "Luther, Luther Scholars, and the Jews," Encounter 46 (Autumn 1985) No.4:343–344. • • Martin Brecht, Martin Luther, 3 vols., Volume three: The Preservation of the Church 1532–1546, (Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 1993), 3:350. • • Brecht, 3:350–351. • • Brecht, 3:351. • • Berenbaum, Michael. The World Must Know, United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, pp. 8–9. • • Michael, Robert. "Luther, Luther Scholars, and the Jews," Encounter 46 (Autumn 1985) No. 4:343–344.) • • Martin Luther, The Magnificat, Trans. A. T. W. Steinhaeuser, in Luther's Works (St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1956), 21:354. • • Russell Briese, "Martin Luther and the Jews", Lutheran Forum 34 (2000) No. 2:32. • • Luther, Magnificat, 21:354f. • • Stöhr, Martin. "Die Juden und Martin Luther," in Kremers, Heinz et al. (eds.) Die Juden und Martin Luther; Martin Luther und die Juden. Neukirchener publishing house, Neukirchen Vluyn 1985, 1987 (second edition). p. 90. Taken from Michael, Robert. Holy Hatred: Christianity, Antisemitism, and the Holocaust. New York: Palgrave Macmillan, 2006, p. 109. See also Oberman, Heiko. Luther: Between Man and Devil. New Haven, 1989. • • Hsia, R. Po-chia. "Jews as Magicians in Reformation Germany," in Gilman, Sander L. and Katz, Steven T. Anti-Semitism in Times of Crisis, New York: New York University Press, 1991, pp. 119–120, cited in Michael, Robert. Holy Hatred: Christianity, Antisemitism, and the Holocaust. New York: Palgrave Macmillan, 2006, p. 109. • • Michael, Robert. Holy Hatred: Christianity, Antisemitism, and the Holocaust. New York: Palgrave Macmillan, 2006, p. 109. • • See Merton P. Strommen et al., A Study of Generations (Minneapolis: Augsburg Publishing, 1972), p. 206. P. 208 also states "The clergy [ALC, LCA, or LCMS] are less likely to indicate anti-Semitic or racially prejudiced attitudes [compared to the laity]." • • What is the Missouri Synod's response to the anti-Semitic statements made by Luther? In the FAQ subsection titled Denominational Differences – Other Denominations, pp. 18–19. Accessed May 2012. • • from a summary of Official Missouri Synod Doctrinal Statements Archived 2009-02-25 at the Wayback Machine. • • Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, "Understanding our Relations with Judaism and Jews" , Section I, Page 9, (undated) • • Declaration of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America to the Jewish Community , April 18, 1994. Retrieved December 15, 2005. • • Statement by the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada to the Jewish Communities in Canada. 5th Biannual Convention of the ELCIC, July 12–July 16, 1995. Retrieved December 20, 2005. • • Christians and Jews A Declaration of the Lutheran Church of Bavaria (November 24, 1998). Retrieved December 18, 2005. Also printed in Freiburger Rundbrief, vol. 6, no. 3 (1999), pp. 191–197. • • "Christians and Jews: A Declaration of the Lutheran Church of Bavaria" , November 24, 1998, also printed in Freiburger Rundbrief, 6:3 (1999), pp. 191–197. For other statements from Lutheran bodies, see: • "Q&A: Luther's Anti-Semitism" , Lutheran Church–Missouri Synod; • "Declaration of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America to the Jewish Community ", Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, April 18, 1994; • "Statement by the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada to the Jewish Communities in Canada" , Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada, July 12–16, 1995; • "Time to Turn" , The Evangelical [Protestant] Churches in Austria and the Jews. Declaration of the General Synod of the Evangelical Church A.B. and H.B., October 28, 1998. • • "We Believe – Position Statement: Israel and the Jewish People" . The Lutheran Evangelical Protestant Church. Retrieved 2007-09-23. 101. • "Lutheran Statement on The Passion of the Christ" January 6, 2004 Bibliography • Bainton, Roland. Here I Stand: A Life of Martin Luther. Nashville: Abingdon Press, 1978. ISBN 0-687-16894-5. • Brecht, Martin. Martin Luther, 3 vols. Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 1985–1993. ISBN 0-8006-0738-4, ISBN 0-8006-2463-7, ISBN 0-8006-2704-0. • Gavriel, Mardell J. The Anti-Semitism of Martin Luther: A Psychohistorical Exploration. Ph.D. diss., Chicago School of Professional Psychology, 1996. • Goldhagen, Daniel. Hitler's Willing Executioners. Vintage, 1997. ISBN 0-679-77268-5. • Halpérin, Jean, and Arne Sovik, eds. Luther, Lutheranism and the Jews: A Record of the Second Consultation between Representatives of The International Jewish Committee for Interreligious Consultation and the Lutheran World Federation Held in Stockholm, Sweden, 11–13 July 1983. Geneva: LWF, 1984. • Johnson, Paul. A History of the Jews. New York: HarperCollins Publishers, 1987. ISBN 0-06-091533-1. • Kaennel, Lucie. Luther était-il antisémite? (Luther: Was He an Antisemite?). Entrée Libre N° 38. Geneva: Labor et Fides, 1997. ISBN 2-8309-0869-4. • Kittelson, James M. Luther the Reformer: The Story of the Man and His Career. Minneapolis: Augsburg Publishing House, 1986. ISBN 0-8066-2240-7. • Luther, Martin. "On the Jews and Their Lies, 1543". Martin H. Bertram, trans. In Luther's Works. Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1971. 47:137–306. • Oberman, Heiko A. The Roots of Anti-Semitism in the Age of Renaissance and Reformation. James I. Porter, trans. Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1984. ISBN 0-8006-0709-0. • Probst, Christopher J. "Demonizing the Jews: Luther and the Protestant Church in Nazi Germany", Indiana University Press in association with the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, 2012, ISBN 978-0-253-00100-9. • Rosenberg, Elliot, But Were They Good for the Jews? (New York: Birch Lane Press, 1997). ISBN 1-55972-436-6. • Roynesdal, Olaf. Martin Luther and the Jews. Ph.D. diss., Marquette University, 1986. • Rupp, Gordon. Martin Luther: Hitler's Cause or Cure? In Reply to Peter F. Wiener. London: Lutterworth Press, 1945. • Siemon-Netto, Uwe. The Fabricated Luther: the Rise and Fall of the Shirer Myth. Peter L. Berger, Foreword. St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1995. ISBN 0-570-04800-1. • Siemon-Netto, Uwe. "Luther and the Jews" . Lutheran Witness 123 (2004)No. 4:16–19. (PDF) • Steigmann-Gall, Richard. The Holy Reich: Nazi Conceptions of Christianity, 1919–1945. Cambridge University Press, 2003. ISBN 0-521-82371-4. • Tjernagel, Neelak S. Martin Luther and the Jewish People. Milwaukee: Northwestern Publishing House, 1985. ISBN 0-8100-0213-2. • Wallmann, Johannes. "The Reception of Luther's Writings on the Jews from the Reformation to the End of the 19th Century." Lutheran Quarterly 1 (Spring 1987) 1:72–97. • Wiener, Peter F. Martin Luther: Hitler's Spiritual Ancestor, Hutchinson & Co. (Publishers) Ltd., 1945;[3] MS0017 (talk) 12:09, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 November 2017

The second sentence of the second paragraph reads: "He strongly disputed the Catholic view on indulgences that freedom from God's punishment for sin could be purchased with money."

The terms "Catholic" and "God's" are incorrect. Actually, it is not the proper Catholic teaching, and Luther primarily dealt with the preaching of Tetzel, who overstated the matter. Regarding the punishment, it is attached to the nature of sin itself and not "from God".

Please, reword the second sentence. 195.181.217.58 (talk) 06:37, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. RivertorchFIREWATER 16:51, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 October 2017

Regarding your text below. This is wholly inadequate and needs explaining in a truthful and righteous manner. The word 'antagonism' is very weak, considering that Martin Luther was a well known anti Semite, and much of his writings inspired the events of the Nazi holocaust as clearly demonstrated in the Wikipedia article: Martin Luther and anti-Semitism 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_and_anti-Semitism

I will provide a few quotes from this excellent, and highly academically supported article. Firstly I provide YOUR text, so that I am being specific and clear. I will then provide extracts from the scholarly article on Martin Luther's anti-Semitism, and his considerable influence on German thinking and attitudes towards Jews between his life-time, and the holocaust. Your text as follows, which needs expanding with clear references to his strongly significant impact on German anti-Semitism

In two of his later works, Luther expressed antagonistic views towards Jews, writing that Jewish homes and synagogues should be destroyed, their money confiscated, and liberty curtailed. Condemned by virtually every Lutheran denomination, these statements and their influence on anti-Semitism have contributed to his controversial status.[9]

References to Martin Luther and anti-Semitism 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_and_antisemitism

“…Martin Luther (1483–1546), a German Reformation leader, had a significant influence on German antisemitism by his virulent anti-Jewish statements and writings.” “…Luther denounced Judaism and called for harsh persecution of its followers, so that they might not be allowed to teach. In a paragraph from his On the Jews and Their Lies he deplores Christendom's failure to expel them.[1] Moreover, he proposed "What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews":[1] • "First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools … This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians …" • "Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed." • "Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them." • "Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb …" • "Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside …" • "Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them …" • "Seventh, I recommend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow … But if we are afraid that they might harm us or our wives, children, servants, cattle, etc., … then let us emulate the common sense of other nations such as France, Spain, Bohemia, etc., … then eject them forever from the country …" “…The prevailing view[32] among historians is that Luther's anti-Jewish rhetoric contributed significantly to the development of antisemitism in Germany,[33] and in the 1930s and 1940s provided an ideal foundation for the Nazi Party's attacks on Jews.[34]” “…According to Michael, just about every anti-Jewish book printed in the Third Reich contained references to and quotations from Luther. Diarmaid MacCulloch argues that Luther's 1543 pamphlet On the Jews and Their Lies was a "blueprint" for the Kristallnacht.[35] Shortly after the Kristallnacht, Martin Sasse, Bishop of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Thuringia, published a compendium of Martin Luther's writings ; Sasse "applauded the burning of the synagogues" and the coincidence of the day, writing in the introduction, "On November 10, 1938, on Luther's birthday, the synagogues are burning in Germany." The German people, he urged, ought to heed these words "of the greatest anti-Semite of his time, the warner of his people against the Jews."[36]” “…The prevailing scholarly view[47] since the Second World War is that the treatise exercised a major and persistent influence on Germany's attitude toward its Jewish citizens in the centuries between the Reformation and the Holocaust. Four hundred years after it was written, the Nazi Party displayed On the Jews and Their Lies during Nuremberg rallies, and the city of Nuremberg presented a first edition to Julius Streicher, editor of the Nazi newspaper Der Stürmer, the newspaper describing it as the most radically antisemitic tract ever published.[48]” MS0017 (talk) 11:05, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Thank you Miistermagico (talk) 20:06, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

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O.S.A.

Suggestion: Change the current link of "O.S.A." to the more direct Order of Saint Augustine. Right now it goes to the general article on "Augustinians." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.170.224.124 (talk) 19:05, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Good idea. Done. Indyguy (talk) 22:31, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Structure

What about reducing the antisemitism issue in the first paragraph but dealing with the topic more intensive and on a “higher” place within the article? The introduction is too long anyway. What do you think? OnSpeech (talk) 18:14, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

Major change: birth location

It seems like the County of Mansfeld was a separate entity from the Electoral Saxony: see County of Mansfeld and maps at Electoral Saxony articles. The German wikipedia also gives "Grafschaft Mansfeld" as the birthplace.Ernio48 (talk) 15:51, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

I changed it. Surely the Germans know what they are writing about in the corresponding article.

"Help me, St. Anne!" Luther screamed. "I will become a monk!"

St. Anne is mother of Mary and grandmother of Jesus. She is only sited in the Gospel of James. Also in the Gospel of James is the story of Salome placing her hand in Mary's vagina as a test of virginity. Her hand burst into flame. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_James

The Church of St. Anne de Beaupré in Quebec, in Canada has long been privileged to possess a rare relic of the Saint. It is a fragment of the wrist bone of St. Anne, about two or three inches in length, with the skin and flesh still adhering to the bone and showing the joint near the thumb.Miistermagico (talk) 10:04, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 October 2018

He WAS good man9nwparadise (talk) 18:35, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Danski454 (talk) 18:38, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

Deutchschen

The word "Deutchschen" is presumably a misspelling of "Deutschen" (German). But I couldn't prove it by Googling the book title. Art LaPella (talk) 06:11, 21 November 2018 (UTC) Misspelling corrected. --Ontoraul (talk) 06:31, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Solafidianism

What about having a sub-heading entitled Solafidianism in the article, as Solafidianism appears to have been the cornerstone of Martin Luther's theology? Vorbee (talk) 09:10, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

There is a separate article on Sola fide - there is a link to it in the Justification by faith alone section of the Martin Luther article - Epinoia (talk) 16:37, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Books on Luther

This article could point out that there have been more books written on Martin Luther than any one apart from Jesus Christ. Vorbee (talk) 07:55, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Riposte link suggested

I would like to request a link, under external sources, to An Orthodox Response to Luther. CJSHayward (talk) 02:15, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

A single paragraph on a personal blog that doesn't present any detailed arguments is not suitable as an external link. Indyguy (talk) 16:27, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 February 2020

Please replace this 

On 31 October 1517, Luther wrote to his bishop, Albrecht von Brandenburg, protesting the sale of indulgences.

with this 

On 31 October 1517, Luther wrote to his bishop, Albrecht von Brandenburg, protesting against the sale of indulgences.

Explanatory example: You can protest your innocence (defend/proclaim your innocence), by protesting against a false accusation. 31.4.130.44 (talk) 21:07, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

 Done LittlePuppers (talk) 01:03, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 February 2020

Please replace this 

There were as many as fourteen in High German, four in Low German, four in Netherlands language, and various in other languages before the Bible of Luther.

with this 

There were as many as fourteen in High German, four in Low German, four in Dutch, and various in other languages before the Bible of Luther.

Thank you. 31.4.156.11 (talk) 07:13, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

 Done Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 21:33, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 October 2020

Delete extra comma: "He received a bachelor's degree in Biblical studies on 9 March 1508,," 109.175.155.99 (talk) 22:28, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

 Done (plus a little more) –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 23:01, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 June 2021

The statement that those who ascribe to the teaching are known as Lutherans is not factual. I am reformed Baptist and ascribed to his teachings, which are ultimately Biblical teachings. So as Luther said we are called Christians or Evangelical. Thank you Cttechmichael (talk) 18:57, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Melmann 20:54, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 August 2021

The side panel has "sola five" which is nonsense. It should read "sola fide" (Latin by faith alone) 2A00:23C7:6587:CB00:A887:4EB6:412B:5A37 (talk) 13:19, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: am I missing something? I only see sola fide throughout the article, and never sola five. Where exactly are you seeing that? ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 14:10, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
There is the phrase "Five solae" in the Notable ideas section of the person infobox, "solae" being the Latin plural for "sola" - in other words, the five solas which the linked article Five solae discusses. Perhaps that is what is being referred to. Indyguy (talk) 14:19, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
- the "Five solae" in the Notable ideas section of the person infobox links to the article Five solae, but that article does not say that the five solae were originated by Luther, but were defined later, so probably the infobox should be changed to "sola fide" and the "five solae" added to the See also section - "five solae" are not mentioned elsewhere in the Luther article - cheers - Epinoia (talk) 16:17, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 December 2021

74.105.25.90 (talk) 15:02, 9 December 2021 (UTC) Martin Luther OSA was a German professor of theology, priest, author, composer, former Augustinian monk, and is best known as a seminal figure in the Protestant Reformation and as the namesake of Lutheranism. Luther was ordained to the priesthood in 1507. Wikipedia

Born: November 10, 1483, Eisleben, Germany Died: February 18, 1546, Eisleben, Germany Spouse: Katharina von Bora (m. 1525–1546) Children: Margaretha Luther, Hans Luther, Paul Luther, Elisabeth Luther, Magdalena Luther, Martin Luther Education: University of Erfurt (1501–1505), Jena Parents: Hans Luther, Margarethe Luther

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:10, 9 December 2021 (UTC)


Semi-protected edit request on 13 December 2021

(first time submitting an edit/error here) Under "Final years, illness and death" is the sentence "The years of struggle with Rome, the antagonisms with and among his fellow reformers, and the scandal that ensued from the bigamy of Philip I incident, all may have contributed." The dispute is (1) it contains unlikely information, without providing suitable references;(2) It contains information which is particularly difficult to verify; (3) conflicts with modern medical knowledge. for example Martin Luther lives longer than most people in his time period and he had other diseases that would end his life without medical treatment (Meniere's, angina, and kidney and bladder stones). If the stress of the Catholic Church killed him he would have died young. Deborah5251 (talk) 00:45, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
 Done @Deborah5251: I think that is a sound reasoning for the sentences removal, and so I've been WP:BOLD and done so. Cheers! —Sirdog (talk) 01:04, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

3 Sola

The Three Sola (The Three Alone [singular]) surround Luther’s Rose.

3 Sola = Lutheranism (Should be added) 5 Solae = Anglicanism (Should be removed) 7 Solae = Calvinism 2600:1700:5C50:C6F0:F8FE:529B:433F:6B13 (talk) 13:38, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 May 2022

167.98.225.245 (talk) 12:01, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

martin luther was a german monk not a priest

 Not done: see footnote 3 Cannolis (talk) 12:57, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Undated entries

Streamlining of the Luther article

I've begun to edit the article, as I have time, to address the issues I mention below. Please feel free to join me in the effort. Please weigh in here if you are going to make substantial changes, so that we can colaborate and improve this article and sub-articles before the 500th anniversary of the Reformation next year. Thank you! CTSWyneken(talk)

Notice of intent to remove the NPOV banner

At the request of Dr. Cameron MacKenzie, I have reviewed the article in its current state. I am Robert. E. Smith, the Electronic Resources Librarian for Concordia Theological Seminary, a Lutheran graduate school of theology. I am the Coordinator of Project Wittenberg, which has put the works of Martin Luther and other Lutherans on the internet since 1994. I have published several articles on Martin Luther, most recently "A History of the Reformation" Lutheran Witness 134, no 10 (October 2015) 6-7, a timeline of the Lutheran Reformation. As such, I am an expert in the life and ministry of Martin Luther.

Several years ago, I was engaged with others in crafting the text of the article and struggled with others to represent all sides of the more controversial issues in the life and ministry of Luther. Having read through the text again, I see the same basic balance remains. Therefore, I intend to remove the NPOV banner from the article at the end of the week.

My basic evaluation of the article as it now stands is it is overlong and repetitive. Many of the issues spelled out should be moved to free-standing articles. There is some anachronisms (calling the church at the time, the Roman Catholic Church, which term would not be recognized by anyone in the 16th century, and calling Luther a friar, a term he did not use for himself. I'd edit it down myself, but I do not have the time to fight over it with other editors.CTSWyneken(talk)

Legacy and Commemoration Edit Request

This should not be a controversial request but since the public cannot edit this page I feel obliged to make it here. In the 'Legacy and Commemoration' section reference is made to the portrayal of Luther as a large, physically imposing man in portraiture, with the writer(s) noting the contrast between such a portrayal and the often physically smaller and more ascetic portrayals of medieval monastics, saints, etc. in Catholic art (note 254). My only problem with this description is the sentence 'His large body also let the viewer know that he did not shun earthly pleasures like drinking—behavior that was a stark contrast to the ascetic life of the medieval religious orders.' While this is true regarding many - but not all - portrayals of medieval Catholic monastics, in reality many of them had tastes just as worldly as Luther and sometimes more so, as anyone familiar with the medieval history of European art, cuisine, and alcohol production should know. This being the case I ask that the sentence be amended to something like 'His large body also let the viewer know that he did not shun earthly pleasures like drinking, in a stark contrast to the often more ascetic portrayal of medieval monastics in art.' [my emphasis, please exclude from edit]

As a disclaimer I would like to add that I have no stake in whatever controversy caused this page to be removed from public editing, and merely wish to clarify this difference between portrayal and reality. I am a non-specialist who merely has a private interest in medieval and early modern history and art and welcome someone more qualified to find the necessary citations. However, having read on the topic extensively and tasted the results of monastic efforts in brewing, distilling, and viniculture I can personally attest to at least some monastics (historic and otherwise) in-abstemious nature.

The pope being the anti-Christ?

What about the Pope being the anti-christ stuff, and Luther telling people to not fight the invading turks because they are a fulfillment of biblical prophecy?

Discussion: Mentioning Antisemitism in the lead or opening paragpraph

Hi, In order to prevent a continuing edit war I am opening a talk-page discussion where we can discuss this here User:El cid, el campeador and if necessary bring in other editors to vote.

Regarding the lead (that is, the section that appears before the table of contents), the crucial information (Martin Luther being a prominent antisemite) was indeed moved.

I believe that this shouldn't be the case - Martin Luther was one of the most prominent anti-semites in the world, giving Adolf Hitler and Nazi Germany significant inspiration; it deserves at least a mention in either the opening paragoraph or before the table of contents. This information is crucial to understanding Martin Luther.

Otherwise, someone unaware of Martin Luther's history and legacy would get a very different idea of who he was. The average Wikipedia visit is a few minutes long.[1] The lead is the first thing most people will read upon arriving at an article, and may be the only portion of the article that they read.

For now, I've left it as a compromise by keeping the paragraphs out of the lead, while adding a short mention of being a "prominent antisemite" in the opening paragraph. If this is unsatisfactory, let's discuss this here and if necessary bring in other editors. Xland44 (talk) 00:35, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

Agree. A brief mention is needed in the lead and also in the body, supported by a citation. Luther's antisemitism is well-documented and cannot responsibly be ignored. Peter Brown (talk) 23:51, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
The lead is the entire top section, i.e. everything before the first section, in this case "Early life". To be clear, I did not take out (or add) any content from the lead, I just moved it to the section in the lead where his antisemitism is discussed in detail. There is an entire paragraph covering antisemitism and other hatreds, "before the table of contents" and within the lead. I agree that it's important information and I do not want it to be perceived that I am whitewashing anything, so let's at least properly frame this discussion. Ultimately, I feel like we should have the entire discussion in one place within the lead as opposed to having it broken up, but I don't feel strongly enough to argue on the internet about antisemitism, even if it's only with regard to formatting. So whatever the consensus may be I happily consent, apologies for rocking the boat. ‡ El cid, el campeador talk 13:15, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
I agree with User:El cid, el campeador that the present wording, "In two of his later works, Luther expressed antagonistic, violent views towards Jews and called for the burnings of their synagogues and their expulsion." is better because more nuanced than the single anti-semite, which had a different meaning through the centuries. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:33, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
Agreed, and placement in the final paragraph of the lede would mirror the prominence given in the article overall. I don't think there's a strong case that the anti-semitism is actually more notable than reformation theology or the vernacular translation, and would risk throwing the balance of the lede off in the opposite direction (particularly since even Xland44 phrases Luther's prominence in terms of inspiring Hitler, rather than for his own actions). I think there's some room to refine the wording to clarify that earlier teachings were also described as anti-semitic with the later works condensing these views (perhaps moving the third sentence of historians view of his contribution to being the first sentence), but broadly think the depth of coverage is appropriate for the lede. Bakkster Man (talk) 14:27, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ https://web.archive.org/web/20190501012242/http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/wikipedia.org. {{cite web}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)

Legacy and Commenmoration

This section badly needs citations, as there are none after the middle of the 2nd paragraph, to the end of section. Some statements sound like personal opinion and no way to know if not, such as, "There is no known condemnation of Luther by Protestants themselves.". While I would generally agree, at least in my own Protestant upbringing, it's way too broad a statement which is not (seemingly) based in any statistical survey of various denominations' writings and positions, although I now view him much more critically (thus I have no axe to grind here, just want a citation, not an opinion, as I would on any page about anything). I can't add citations or corrections, as this page has restrictions and I'm not an expert on Luther. I will try to find citations for the simpler statements, and put them here. The example statement I used should probably be deleted from the article until it can be discussed and/or substantiated.

The whole article may have a citation problem, I don't know, I was specifically looking up his legacy. I would think, since Luther is controversial, that citations would be of the utmost importance and they would be as strictly enforced as who is allowed to edit is. Sbberner (talk) 19:33, 30 July 2022 (UTC)Sbberner (talk) 19:39, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Can descendants and, or a genealogy section or a link to one be added?

Olivia Newton-John was a direct descendant of Martin Luther, via her Lutheran maternal great-grandmother Elise Marie A. Helene Von Jhering. [1] [2] And Olivia's grandfather, Max Born, was a practicing Lutheran who subsequently got baptized as a Lutheran in March 1914. [3] Per Olivia's book Don't Stop Believin', she said "On my mother’s side is Martin Luther. And there’s a Spanish king somewhere". Mindfullyact (talk) 22:07, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ https://www.universalcompendium.com/tables/his/gen/links/onj-luther.htm
  2. ^ https://www.geni.com/people/Helene-Ehrenberg-von-Jhering/6000000010584607457
  3. ^ https://kehilalinks.jewishgen.org/wroclaw/Max_Born.html

"antisemitic views towards Jews"

Good thing you clarified that. We might have thought he had antisemitic views towards Hindus. Or maybe cats. 2A02:2788:11A8:34:E2CB:4EFF:FE88:1A2D (talk) 06:42, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

 Done - but next time you can ask nicely! ‡ El cid, el campeador talk 13:48, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 November 2022

In two of his later works, Luther expressed antisemitic views, calling for the expulsion of Jews and burning of synagogues.[10] In addition, these works also targeted Roman Catholics, Anabaptists, and nontrinitarian Christians.[11] He also is seen by some as the first propagandist in print, leveraging the then cutting-edge technology of the printing press to mass produce hundreds of pamphlets espousing his views in easily-accessible German (as opposed to Latin, which until then had been the default language of scholars), and commissioning eye-catching illustrations to capture the attention of all levels of society, and not just the literary and academic elite. By 1521 he’d become Europe’s most-published author, with 160 writings to his name that ended up in 828 editions. Based upon his significant anti-judaistic teachings,[12][13][14] the prevailing view among historians is that his rhetoric contributed significantly to the development of antisemitism in Germany and of the Nazi Party.[15][16][17]. It is likewise no coincidence that Kristillnacht–the Nazi-led night of pogroms against German Jews in 1938–took place on November 10th, Luther’s birthday. Luther died in 1546 with Pope Leo X's excommunication still in effect. Haydenheller (talk) 19:52, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:59, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

Grammar error in first sentence

Change this:

Martin Luther OSA (/ˈluːθər/;[1] German: [ˈmaʁtiːn ˈlʊtɐ] (listen); 10 November 1483[2] – 18 February 1546) was a German priest, theologian, author, hymnwriter, and professor, and Augustinian friar.

To this:

Martin Luther OSA (/ˈluːθər/;[1] German: [ˈmaʁtiːn ˈlʊtɐ] (listen); 10 November 1483[2] – 18 February 1546) was a German priest, theologian, author, hymnwriter, professor, and Augustinian friar. Toliverkt (talk) 12:16, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Done. Indyguy (talk) 15:07, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Suggestions

Maybe you should write an essay about him Not less than 250 words 102.88.35.26 (talk) 20:23, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia:NOTESSAY. {{ping|ClydeFranklin}} (t/c) 21:44, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Scrupulosity and intrusive thought

Shouldn't we mention Luther's tendency toward scrupulosity and intrusive thought (if not obsessive–compulsive disorder) in this article, if only briefly? This aspect of his personality is documented in the historical record and has been discussed by scholars. 173.88.246.138 (talk) 20:05, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 October 2023

I want to request to edit the notion of Martin Luther's relations to his mother. Ariannaivann (talk) 07:33, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: this is not the right page to request additional user rights. You may reopen this request with the specific changes to be made and someone may add them for you, or if you have an account, you can wait until you are autoconfirmed and edit the page yourself. Tollens (talk) 08:55, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Correction on Indulgence Selling

False: “was sent to Germany by the Roman Catholic Church to sell indulgences”… In reality, only a few Bishops engaged in selling indulgences and it was an abuse of their office, which was thereafter reformed. DemosthenesTrue (talk) 23:57, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

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