Talk:Lierna Castle

Format problem

page format problem?! --Alec Smithson (talk) 13:06, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

FAKE AND WRONG REPORTING & PERSONAL ATTACK

The author of the report for some time and with acts pesecutori sengala to direct attacks against me. The issue is easily solved. I am the author of the ancestral castle (Chateau or Castle) of Lierna. This evil is called "false alarm".

I can not carry a copyright violation of a text which came up to me and just translated. --Alec Smithson (talk) 17:12, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

Alec Smithson, it is not true that you wrote that page on it.wp (if that is what you are trying to say). As you can see by looking at the Italian article history, you have never edited it. The article there was created by an IP, 95.237.141.108, and substantial content was added by Brigante mandrogno, an established user there with edits going back to 2008. You used Google to translate it and did not provide attribution, though you have been told many times that attribution is required. You did exactly the same when you created fr:Château de Lierna, so that is (by our standards at least) a copyright violation also. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 19:32, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

continue and prejudicial personal attacks

continue and prejudicial personal attacks are against the Wiki Rules. I wrote the text of Castle of Lierna, like i wrote Lierna history that you erase without Reason completly (a very long research). I was also the IP, 95.237.141.108 . And I wrote also next like you can see in the Crono page. Your is a violation of the Wikipedia standard and you did VANDALSIM without reason. and you still want to be right? I make you a question, but how old are you? he just tried to hit me again for your constant personal attacks against me that we know well. --Alec Smithson (talk) 20:04, 23 October 2015 (UTC) who knows as I had also written the whole story of Lierna ?! Also on his castle in Lierna showing the contents (I repeat that you have vandalized and deleted). How many combinations eh? and somehow you're always you who would destroy my text and wikipedia. When you have no competence. --Alec Smithson (talk) 20:04, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

Alec Smithson, are you claiming to be Brigante mandrogno, who wrote most of that article? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 20:39, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

I never said to be this user! I'm not Brigante! in any case the content that you can view on the castle are also on lierna page. They are the ones that you've deleted. I remind you that also translate a page does not involve an infringement and is prohibited. You could bring you translation and not unjustly accuse devastating the page with vandalism where those interested can no longer read. Blocking information and dissemination. Do you remember what you're doing in law you are called ATTACK TEMERARIO. you should reflect your personal problems with me vandalizing the wikipedia pages continuously. --Alec Smithson (talk) 15:35, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

Stalking

the page was obviously devastated ... Clearly every report against me by this author for personal reasons, and continuous.

curious that the author of each message is always the same absurd is not it? --Alec Smithson (talk) 17:15, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

No, I quite share the concerns raised here and elsewhere about these "Natoli"-related articles, which suffer from such poor use of English that it is often difficult to discern meaning accurately or, alternately, text that sounds as if lifted from other sources without adequate attribution; lack of specific, verifiable footnotes; footnotes and references which do not substantiate the text; exaggerated or fabricated allegations about the deeds, origins, honors, possessions and affiliations of the "Natoli" and their alleged kin; hyped notability; suspected conflict of interest; sock-puppetry; inadequate explanations and rationales provided in edit summaries and on talk pages. FactStraight (talk) 04:27, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

Assessment and Task force Mil Hist

I cannot assess beyond stub, and I did place it in the Fortifications Task force. When you two stop arguing and resolve this (I suggest some kind of arbitration without shouting), I will proceed further.auntieruth (talk) 19:35, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

ok checked

SwisterTwister check the page.

ok

is CHANGED THE PAGE NOW

erase the cover and show the page please. thanks --Alec Smithson (talk) 18:24, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

obvious abuse of office. no copyright infringement only partial translation of text wikipedia

the text was already present on Wikipedia in Italian. And as such by the law itself he was free of copyright. I will have the translated and did not know how to report it to be the subject of translation, I asked if it was legitimate administrators the translation and they said yes. The same person who has raised the issue of copyright is well to realize that it is a partial translation of the Italian text of wikipedia. And this perhaps dobrevve bring a reminder to him for false alarm and for blocking the easy use of the individual display the player for a long time. I have not riporato it was a translation because it was a free translation and partial and therefore not identical, also did not know how to insert the tag translation. And no one helped me about. But only he attacked unfairly. I also immediately entered and changed the text again this time originated entirely from me and I can prove it in various ways, and yet I was still locked when to listen to reason. --Alec Smithson (talk) 20:20, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Bibliography

The existing listing in the Bibliography section appears to be quite overbroad and more for the Lierna area than for the castle. I have removed a couple of entries that I was able to check and that had no material content about the castle, and actually very little about Lierna. This "Bibliography" appears to have originally grown on the Italian Wikipedia in the Lierna article, with a substantial edit by IP editor 95.237.141.108 in March 2015. It was added to the Lierna article in the French Wikipedia with this edit of 9 Jun 2015 by Alec Smithson, and copied into both the Château de Lierna article and this article when he created them both on 21 October 2015. It seems to me that the entire section could be replaced with a "Further reading" section that just listed:

• Panizza, Franca (2003) Il Castello di Lierna, ed. Cattaneo Paolo Grafiche, Oggiono.

If I do not find some meat on those bones pretty soon, that is just what I will do. --Bejnar (talk) 05:02, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

I will check better. --Alec Smithson (talk) 09:58, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes, Bejnar, that is the right course of action. Alec Smithson has a very unusual conception of what a bibliography is for or should be – see, for example, Talk:Lierna (chair) for discussion of a similar duplicative WP:LAUNDRY list of passing mentions. This surely shows that IP 95.237.141.108 is still the same editor, editing while not logged in. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 11:43, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

I said that I will check about, if you give me time.

--Alec Smithson (talk) 17:13, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

• Please list only those with substantial substantive content. [Si prega di elencare solo quelle con molto contenuto sostanziale.] --Bejnar (talk) 17:55, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Order of Saints Maurice and Lazarus

The highest and primary order of the House of Savoy was the Annunziata. In 1572, Emmanuel Philibert, ruling Duke of Savoy, consolidated two lesser Savoy orders (the Order of St Lazarus and the Order of Saint Maurice) into the new Order of Saints Maurice and Lazarus (Ordine dei Santi Maurizio e Lazzaro). He obtained a papal bull of approval from Pope Gregory XIII dated 15 October 1572, although he had some trouble with France who wanted to keep their own Order of St. Larurus. Emmanuel Philibert was strongly influenced by the Tuscan Order of Saint Stephen (Ordine di Santo Stefano) in its creation, with both military and religious functions. See Osborne, Toby (2007). Dynasty and Diplomacy in the Court of Savoy: Political Culture and the Thirty Years' War. p. 45.. Unfortunately, there is no compeling evidence that the Order of Saints Maurice and Lazarus was founded at the chapel (or church) of Santi Maurizio e Lazzaro in Lierna Castle. In fact, there is some evidence that it was dedicated in Turin (Torino). The bones of St. Maurice were transferred to Turin, not Lierna.Osborne 2007, p. 45 Certainly in 1728 the order purchased the Basilica Mauriziana (the church in Turin) and it became the "Regia Arciconfraternita dei Santi Maurizio e Lazzaro", i.e. the site of the "master house" of the order. None of the reliable sources I was able to check mentioned Lierna, including Boselli, Paolo (1917) L'Ordine Mauriziano dalle origini ai tempi presenti; Tioli, L. (1867) Ordine dei santi Maurizio e Lazzaro e suoi grandi maestri.; Ordine dei Santi Maurizio e Lazzaro (1861) Regi magistrali provvedimenti relativi all' Ordine dei Santi Maurizio e Lazzaro preceduti da breve storia dello stesso ordine; and Tallone, Armando (1898) Contributi alla storia dell'Ordine mauriziano. I was not able to access Claretta, Gaudenzio (1890) Dell'Ordine Mauriziano nel primo secolo dalla sua ricostituzione e del suo Grand'Ammiraglio Andrea Provana di Leini, specifically pages 155–158, as cited by Osborne. Absent specific citation to reliable sources about Lierna's connection, the information about this order should not be included in this article. --Bejnar (talk) 21:26, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Additional evidence of the Turin site for the dedication of the order, is a receipt in the archives of the order for the payment of 520 scudi, dated 7 December 1572, to be used for construction and restoration of the Basilica Mauriziana. documented here. --Bejnar (talk) 22:07, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Nice research, Bejnar! Unless Alec Smithson can cite the exact source, with page number, for this claim, it certainly should not remain in the article. Unfortunately, experience has shown that all content added by this editor needs to be independently verified for accuracy. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 12:08, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

the Italian royal family in the person of the heirs and Vittorio Emanuele will suffice as a source alive today?. The January 22, 1573 at the Church of the Castle of Lierna, a Emanuele Filiberto of Savoy, by issuing a Papal Bull of Pope Gregory XIII, founded the Order of the Savoy dynasty, called the Order of Saints Maurice and Lazarus and still exists today, in memory of which it houses a bronze bell bearing the emblem of the Order of the Royal House of Italy.

Of course these Chiesetta is inside the Castle, check about.

http://lightstorage.laprovinciadilecco.it/media/attach/2011/11/9_maggio_05_i_Savoia_allinaugurazione_della_chiesa_di_Lierna.pdf

It is much worse to say that are false reports that give true of false. Double check before you say they are not true facts. It's called intellectual doubt, unless you have some convictions that are based on your superficial research. Also attention to everything that says Justlettersandnumbers because you can see that I am stalking trying to attack continuously with vandalism for reasons personal to me. --Alec Smithson (talk) 15:53, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

@Alec Smithson: In what reliable source does is say "Il 22 gennaio 1573 presso la Chiesa del Castello di Lierna, un Emanuele Filiberto di Savoia, con l'emissione di una Bolla Papale di Papa Gregorio XIII, fondò l'Ordine dinastico di Casa Savoia, chiamato Ordine dei Santi Maurizio e Lazzaro."? There are plenty of sources for the papal bull, what is needed is what ties the founding to la Chiesa del Castello di Lierna.  --Bejnar (talk) 18:21, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

@Alec Smithson: Thank you for providing the copy of the article from the newspaper La Provincia di Lecco of 9 May 2005. You ask if the Italian royal family in the person of the heirs and Vittorio Emanuele will suffice as a source alive today? The answer is that their spoken or written words will be considered, only if reported affirmatively in an acknowledged reliable source. The article answers affirmatively that the church (chapel) in Lierna Castle was dedicated to the order; however there is no claim in that report that the original dedication of the order was done there, and other reliable sources suggest that the church where that original dedication was done, is the Basilica Mauriziana in Torino, rather than the church (chapel) within Leirna Castle. Unfortunately they are both referred to as the church of "SS. Maurizio e Lazzaro". There is no mention of the bell in the newspaper article. So far as I can tell, aside from the bunting, uniforms and mention of the knights present, the references to the order consist of Bishop Francesco Saverio Salerno di Cerveteri, the order's chaplin, saying: «membro nascosto della famiglia mauriziana» e felice di essere stato chiamato ad una cerimonia «che segna il ripristino dell’autentica identità dell’ordine». And the Prince adding: «Siamo felici di essere qui. Malgrado sia una piccola chiesa rappresenta la causa del nostro ordine e lo sarà sempre». All of which are consistent with a rededication of the church after a restoration ( inaugurazione dei restauri esterni dell’edificio).  --Bejnar (talk) 18:21, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

@Alec Smithson: Even if the presence of the bell with the Savoy arms in the church (chapel) within Lierna Castle can be established via reliable sources, that does not establish that the original dedication ceremony of the Ordine dei Santi Maurizio e Lazzaro was done there.  --Bejnar (talk) 18:21, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

@Alec Smithson: I never said anything wasn't "true", because "truth" is not the standard on Wikipedia. The standards on Wikipedia include publication in reliable sources and consensus among editors. If you believe that "truth" is more important for an encyclopedia, then Wikipdia is not for you. Wikipedia is a cultural artifact reflecting the planet's cultures as expressed in its publications (predominantly secondary sources, WP:SECONDARY). Given the fallibility of humans, it is not, and cannot be the "absolute truth". In summary, just because something is excluded from Wikipedia does not mean that it isn't true.  --Bejnar (talk) 18:21, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

@Bejnar:thank you so much of your words and your kindness, but I think you also for an encyclopedia is more important historical truth that this kind of sharing. The bell was donated there are the articles about. What you have in any case as the source is a daily newspaper and then a good source. I have always tried to bring historical facts often with sources and yet are always blamed, with my mistakes then correct it if I can, from this member of falsehood. Not a nice way to work.

--Alec Smithson (talk) 09:54, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

@Alec Smithson: Is the bell that you are talking about the one that was given by Vittorio Emanuele that is discussed in this story from 2006? Or are you talking about an older bell? --Bejnar (talk) 02:43, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

about the bell of 2006 given by Vittorio Emanuele.

--Alec Smithson (talk) 13:46, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Attribution

This page was created using a Google-translation of the corresponding page on Italian Wikipedia, but without the necessary attribution to the authors of that page; it was thus a copyright violation. Since the issues are now under discussion at ANI, I've added the attribution above, and will remove the copyright blanking. I apologise if leaving it in place for so long has hindered the work of good-faith editors interested in improving the article and the project as a whole. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 23:10, 13 December 2015 (UTC)