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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should we refer to Julian Assange as a journalist?
Wikinetman (talk) 03:04, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Document the dispute There is a real dispute, I don't think it can be said without attribution. Changed from yes but attribute, with a real dispute weshould document it. NadVolum (talk) 20:17, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment What sources support the claim that Assange is a journalist? My understanding is that most sources reject the claim, including the Committee to Protect Journalists. In addition, where do you propose including it? We currently note a few times in the body that some individuals have called him a journalist (Assange's defenders have responded to U.S. accusations, describing him as a journalist who did nothing more than publish leaked information that embarrassed the U.S. government., O'Hagan refused the request and said to he "would not give a witness statement against a fellow journalist".) and that there has been a debate about whether he is one (After Assange's arrest in 2019, journalists and commenters debated about if Assange was a journalist.) If the proposal is to add it to the lede then I think that would be WP:UNDUE, given the lack of support for this claim. BilledMammal (talk) 08:30, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No I seem to recall the last time we had this some sources were brought forth saying he was a journalist, and other saying he was not. Slatersteven (talk) 10:06, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not without reliable sources: this isn't just a poll for Wikipedia editors; our personal opinions are not relevant. Wikipedia:Verifiability applies: "any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be supported by inline citations." As well: "The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material" Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 14:19, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Status quo (summoned by bot). Per Moxy and BilledMammal above, I don't see any reason to alter the status quo from the previous RfC that we don't call him a journalist in Wikipedia-voice or in the lede, but we can document the controversy in the article body, to an encyclopedically appropriate extent. -- Visviva (talk) 02:15, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nothis is not a description that is used by there is no consensus amonsgt reliable sources, therefor it would be WP:UNDUE. TarnishedPathtalk 09:12, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Status quo I don't see a compelling reason to make this change or an argument for what has changed since the last RFC. Nemov (talk) 19:38, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No (Summoned by bot): Per Moxy, BilledMammal, Nemov, and Visviva (maintain status quo). Nothing has changed since previous RfC -- Otr500 (talk) 01:11, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, keep the status quo: I don't want to repeat my lengthy answer in the previous RfC, but the points remain valid. It remains controversial whether Assange is a journalist: see for example, [1]. He does not fit the conventional definition of a journalist which involves producing written and photographic content for news publications. This does not preclude us noting that he has been hailed as a journalist or noting his awards for journalism. What it does preclude is describing him as a journalist in "Wikivoice".--Jack Upland (talk) 02:27, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No He is not a journalist by any conventional definition of the world. Simply winning awards for breaking a story does not a journalist make. Avgeekamfot (talk) 19:10, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes Julian Assange is a journalist. What exactly is a conventional definition of 'journalist,' and why would a journalist be required to meet such a definition before being called such? The Internet has changed how such things get defined. There are millions these days who perform journalistic functions online but whose content isn't produced for mainstream media organizations. Does that make their content any less journalistic or them less than journalists? I think this gets into opinion territory, so it would seem to be a discussion that may not come to a point of consensus, but it seems to me that someone who has performed the role of a journalist, as I believe Mr. Assange has, cannot be said to be anything other than a journalist.Coalcity58 (talk) 01:32, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No. He is not trained as a journalist and has not performed normal journalistic work. In fact, his actions violate journalistic ethics. He's something else. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 01:58, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Assange presents a particularly painful example of journalistic misconduct";[2] "Julian Assange is not a journalist, said Kathy Kiely, a veteran reporter with four decades of experience in newsrooms and classrooms. He’s a broker of information, often motivated by his own political interests and rarely adherent to a code of ethics."[3] The following article shows why the question of whether Assange's actions are good or bad is not a settled one, and thus why we should present both sides here, without taking sides. It's complicated. (The article doesn't take a clear stand on whether or not he's a journalist.):"Why Journalists Aren't Defending Julian Assange"
Whether he is or is not a journalist is not always relevant to those issues, so that makes this question a potential red herring in some cases. Whether he's a journalist and whether his actions are defensible are two different matters. This RfC is about whether he's a journalist, and I say he isn't. It's possible to take that position and still defend some of his actions, but that's not the purpose of this RfC. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 15:53, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well at least that is something citable even though it is stupid. That Kathy Kiely should have been aware of what happened about the release of the unredacted files and not used it to back up an allegation of not having ethics. If anything it was the newspapers attacking him for doing it particularly the Guardian which lacked ethics. NadVolum (talk) 17:10, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Could people come up with something objective that can be reasonably easily checked thanks if they want to say a definite yes or no. NadVolum (talk) 09:29, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, keep the status quo: per reasoned, detailed argument of Jack Upland. He does not fit the conventional definition of a journalist which involves producing written and photographic content for news publications. This does not preclude us noting that he has been hailed as a journalist or noting his awards for journalism. What it does preclude is describing him as a journalist in "Wikivoice". Pincrete (talk) 06:33, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is WP:OR, we dont do our own interpretations of what a journalist is. We just follow what the sources say. This statement in fact indicates how weak the argument against using the journalist term is. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 05:31, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No I do not see sources that support this claim and at most this is disputed. Perhaps we could document the dispute maybe but we would need to see more quality sources. Jorahm (talk) 19:15, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, in some way The article subject has won multiple awards for being a journalist, so there is no reason for us to downplay that. We can certainly state that the term is controversial. We see sources such as this that state explicitly that the subject's critics dont want him to be called a journalist freedom of press foundation, US Govt, and PBS. All of these over the top statements that 'black is not black' from our encyclopedic perspective lends a lot of weight that something might be black, and thus makes it WP:DUE. Here at DUE we read "Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources", therefore it is contrary to policy that we exclude this discussion/controversy. It is easy enough for us to summarize the topic and note the term is controversial or in dispute, but to whitewash it, is contrary to policy. Should we call him a journalist in wikivoice? WP:DUE says: "Wikipedia should not present a dispute as if a view held by a small minority is as significant as the majority view. " Therefore, we would not say the subject is a journalist in wikivoice without qualification/clarification, but we also would not remove that many newspapers take the position that he is not a journalist, nor would we ignore the multiple notable journalism awards, therefore we should include both sides of the discussion to provide WP:BALANCE. I think a lot of this discussion above misses this point, and that policy here trumps the opinion of the editors that seem to want to line up on party lines. This article is often one of frequent disputes, and this dispute should probably be covered according to policy to end the journalist discussion Jtbobwaysf (talk) 05:48, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You write "All of these over the top statements that 'black is not black' from our encyclopedic perspective lends a lot of weight that something might be black, and thus makes it WP:DUE". That is an argument from original research. We should not be stating that because quite a number of sources disagree with the attribution, that therefore it must be true. To do so is specifically not allowed according to WP:NOR. The fact of the matter is that there is no agreement amongst reliable sources and if there is no agreement we should not be saying it in wikivoice in the lede. TarnishedPathtalk 05:59, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No its not even remotely OR, you yourself admit the controversy and confirm my point, stating "quite a number of sources disagree with the attribution." Who are they disagreeing with? ;-) You also dont address the journalism awards the subject has won. There cant be controversy when there is consensus, the two concepts are diametrically opposed. The very point that, & according to you, many sources "disagree with the attribution", demonstrates according to you at least, that a controversy exists. WP:QUACK applies here and there is nothing here that prevents us from covering the controversy. Your suggestion to just make it go away, saying 'nothing to see here' is flawed at its very root and contrary to wikipedia policy. I also dont see that this RFC relates to the WP:LEAD. Did I miss something? Jtbobwaysf (talk) 08:06, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We do mention all of this, just not as one word in the lede. Slatersteven (talk) 08:42, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
When I do a search for the term "journalist" in my browser on the article, I saw only one mention referring to the subject as a journalist (I found many hits, but most were not related to the subject), and the hit I found was "Assange's defenders have responded to U.S. accusations, describing him as a journalist who did nothing more than publish leaked information that embarrassed the U.S. government.[428][429]" The only result that I found in the article seems to allege that only Assange's defenders refer to him as a journalist, and this statement appears to be non-neutral and conflicts with all the awards. Again, this RFC doesn't mention WP:LEAD so it seems you are alleging the RFC is based on the lead, I would like to see some evidence of this other than just your assumption. You and the editor above are putting forth this claim, but that is not part of the RFC. Do you have any evidence that the the subject of this RFC is the lead, or are you just arguing (without evidence) that point? Jtbobwaysf (talk) 09:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So as I said we do mention he is described as a journalist, what we can't do it put it in our words. Slatersteven (talk) 09:55, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I was going to respond the same as Steven however the Android app sucks so I had to wait until I got home. @Jtbobwaysf there is material about it being a matter of debate in the Julian Assange#Commentary about Assange section. Now if you wanted to add to that, that would be an entirely different discussion. You are correct that this RfC is about whether we should refer to him as an journalist in article voice anywhere in the article, my apologies there. However it still comes down to the same situation where there is no agreement amongst the reliable sources and no one during this RfC has presented any analysis to demonstrate how the discussion amongst reliable sources has changed since last time. Given that there is no agreement amongst reliable sources it would be WP:UNDUE to call him a journalist in article voice. TarnishedPathtalk 10:11, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As NadVolum says above, we can document the dispute/controversy and there should be no prohibition against using wikivoice in this description. A blanket ban on it is incorrect and against policy. We dont need agreement in RS to use that term in wikivoice if it is properly attributed, there is no such policy that states this, WP:BALANCE covers this. Too many opinions on this article talk page if Assange is or is not a journalist, this is not the point. The point is if our ban on use of the term in wikivoice adheres to policy, and I say it does not. Maybe we need to amend this statement "After Assange's arrest in 2019, journalists and commenters and wikipedians debated about if Assange was a journalist." I am joking here, we will not cover this, but it does forward my point that we are debating if he is a journalist here, and that is not the point. The point is if DUE and BALANCE allow us to use it in wikivoice and what circumstances. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 10:24, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see any argument against documenting the dispute/controversy. The question asks, should we call him a journalist, with the implication being that we do so in article voice. Now the answer to that question is simple and I'll repeat myself again. There is no agreement amongst reliable sources so no we shouldn't call him a journalist.
Now if you want to further document the dispute/controversy, I'd recommend suggesting edits in another thread because this isn't it. TarnishedPathtalk 10:33, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Here in this RFC we are discussing if use of the journalist term in wikivoice is allowed/prohibited. My position is that "prohibited" is against policy. The arguments above that this RFC relates to LEAD are a convenient way to strawman that RS consensus is required to use the term in wikivoice. This position is false and against policy. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 10:42, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, it is an assumption of where we would say he is a Journalist (where else would we say he is a journalist?), based on past edits. And wp:npov is clear, we do not say something is a fact that is contested, RS contests the idea he is a journalist. So its an opinion, not a fact. Slatersteven (talk) 10:47, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You and Tarnished are making the argument that for wikivoice we must have RS in alignment. WP:BALANCE states "Neutrality assigns weight to viewpoints in proportion to their prominence in reliable sources. However, when reputable sources contradict one another and are relatively equal in prominence, describe both points of view and work for balance. This involves describing the opposing views clearly, drawing on secondary or tertiary sources that describe the disagreement from a disinterested viewpoint" and WP:WIKIVOICE (under NPOV which you quoted) states "Wikipedia aims to describe disputes, but not engage in them" as well as plenty of other text to that characterizes this discussion, but none of it offers up your view that we need consensus in the RS to use it. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 11:05, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Exaclty "describe the disagreement from a disinterested viewpoint", not take a side in the said dispute. So we would say "has been called...but other disagree not "is". Slatersteven (talk)
Per Slatersteven, if you want to flesh out why there is disagreement, then certainly there are already others saying to discuss it. However that is not what is being asked here. TarnishedPathtalk 11:16, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The scope of this RFC is well defined and narrow, and it doesnt include going off into a discussion of the disagreement about our opinions if you or I think subject is or is not a journalist. This talk page is full of these yarns that I for one find tedious. I just weigh on on this RFC as it delves more into a policy issue and one that I dont care for these consensus bans on formulated on individual article talk pages. Broadly speaking it would be difficult to describe the subject if the use of the term is prohibited by a discussion on this talk page, and that ban is not encyclopedic and is contrary to policy. Both you of you editors are apparently unable to refute the policy issues I have noted and rather continue to try to get into a discussion of the subject (essentially 'is he or is he not a journalist!?!') rather than address the wikipedia policy matters that govern how we deal with content on this article and others. Too often these defacto content bans are put in place to steer content on these controversial subjects. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 09:03, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No one had said the article can't mention he had been described as a journalist only that WE can't say something like "Assange is a journalist", which is what the RFC is asking. Slatersteven (talk) 09:06, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No. the term has a specific defined meaning relating to principles, practices, and procedures. Assange's work does not stay within or observe those limitations to his chosen mission. Use of the term would confuse or mislead our readers. Description is more valuable than labeling. SPECIFICOtalk 16:40, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Why in this article in the beginning is it not mentioned that Julian exposed the US government lies in Iraq and is being persecuted for it? 162.254.123.138 (talk) 10:59, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We do, we just do not use the word lies. Slatersteven (talk) 11:07, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think most times you'll find it is more a case of obscuring the truth rather than straightforward lies. How often have you seen a politician actually answering an embarassing question? NadVolum (talk) 15:16, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The information box describes Julian Assange as active "1987 - present". But he has been in maximum security prison for several years now, and I don't see how he could be described as "active" during that period, unless you just mean being in the news. He had limited contact with the outside world during his years in the Ecuadorean Embassy, so I suppose that could count as "active", although it may be a bit questionable. But certainly it seems to me there is no way he can be counted as active after the police entered the Embassy and arrested him.
What does anyone else think? M.J.E. (talk) 05:16, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree - Assange couldn't possibly be considered active at the moment, but what date can we say that he was considered inactive? After his asylum was revoked in 2019? LegalizeCaruana (talk) 15:14, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That would depend, is his case is still active, his self-promotion is still active? Is his "reporting" still active? Slatersteven (talk) 15:30, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would say active until 2019.--Jack Upland (talk) 04:03, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The BBC, among many high-profile news outlets posted this article a few hours ago verifying that Assange now has a right to challenge his extradition to the United States. Just to make sure (I'm still new to this whole editing thing), is this significant enough (both as a source and as an event) to be added to the article? LegalizeCaruana (talk) 14:05, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've added this in. It follows on from existing text.--Jack Upland (talk) 04:02, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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