Talk:Humphrey Kynaston

Marriages

I have undone the edit, 15:29, 23 August 2011, of the Welsh names of Humphrey's partners. The English translation of "ap" and "ferch" had added by 132.185.240.122. The use of "ap" and "ferch" is normal and accepted in Welsh personal names and in my view it should not be within the scope of this document to explain that use. Afterall, no one would think to have to explain the "Mac" in Mackenzie (Mac being derived through Old Irish and previously Brythonic "Map" - cognate with the modern Welsh "ap". Boatgypsy (talk) 19:48, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Father's date of birth

If Roger Kynaston was born "c. 1450" then he fought at Blore Heath aged only 9. Either the date of birth is wrong or he wasn't at the battle, or there's a remarkable story untold here. Whichever is the case it needs fixed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.146.172.121 (talk) 15:22, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Pardon in 1518

"Accounts show"? What accounts? Where's the citation? This is sloppy. Furthermore, was there even a war going on in 1518? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.146.172.121 (talk) 15:26, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Further to this, having done a search on Kynaston, the only account I can find of his pardon dates it to 1493 (Baring-Gould). Two years' outlawry is much more plausible than 27. The 1518 pardon is looking more and more like so much piffle. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.241.144.152 (talk) 00:05, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Copyedit info & assessment

I went through and cleaned up all the refs, did some general cleanup, and then followed this with a search on Google. I found a few new refs, added a bit of information, and fixed a number of factual errors. I then expanded the article as best I could with the resources available to me. Considering this, I believe that the article should now be assessed as C class (a low C), and was wondering what could possibly be done to maybe even get it to B... - Adolphus79 (talk) 19:52, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I see a few things that would make the article better: Typcially, references go after punctuation, not before. An infobox would also be helpful, and {{Persondata}} should probably be added. -Drilnoth (talk) 17:11, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I thought refs went before punctuation... that has been fixed and persondata added... I don't know that there is a highwayman infobox, is there a particular infobox you would recommend? I would research infoboxes to find one, but am currently on wikibreak due to moving and the holidays... - Adolphus (talk) 04:29, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Infobox added, used {{Infobox Criminal}}

The lead does not properly summarize the article. Hekerui (talk) 08:10, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Date & Place of Birth

I have removed mention to H.K.'s year of birth as 1474 as well as the place. It is not known when or where he was born. He was likely born at Myddle, but he could quite easily have been born elsewhere. Also, 1474 is probably not even a very good estimation of his birth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.153.133.197 (talk) 22:05, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

I have again removed the postulated birth date from this article, which this time was stated as 1468. There is no known source for Humphrey's birth and as such, a place of birth can neither be given. 217.44.2.13 (talk) 15:45, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

I'd like to suggest that HK's birth date and death date are known. The IGI database of the Mormon Church holds a microfilm copy of a manuscript of parish records for Shropshire in the relevant period. Humphrey Kynaston of Morton is recorded as the son of Roger Kynaston and Elizabeth Grey, born in 1468 and died in 1534. Details of this record can be found at:

http://www.familysearch.org/eng/search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=igi/search_IGI.asp&clear_form=true

Batch number 5025898

What reasons would you have for not accepting this as evidence of likely dates for HK?

HK must have been born before 28 Oct 1495, as this was his father's death date. HK is recorded in Treswell's Visitation Of Shropshire 1623 as having died 1534 - see: http://www.archive.org/stream/visitationshrop01britgoog#page/n20/mode/1up page 295.

Is there any reason to think that HK recorded by Treswell as having died 1534 is a different HK to the one born in 1468, in the same place, and dying in the same year?

Furthermore, Treswell records that Roger and Elizabeth were married in 1465, which would tie in with a probable birth date of 1468.

Boatgypsy (talk) 17:22, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

In the absence of other argument I have re-inserted a DOB of 1468, along with references.Boatgypsy (talk) 20:36, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Further on Birth & Death

I didn't suggest that his date of death is not know, although that is not known either. His date of death comes from his will, which was made in 1534, but proved in Jan 1535. So it is possible that he died in 1535.

Re. what is said about the IGI. The Mormons don't hold any microfilm copies giving details of Humphrey's birth as no parish registers exist before 1538. The Myddle registers begin in 1541. The record in the IGI givin a birth as 1468 is a patron submission and as such has no value. There is no reliable source to give a birth date/year for Humphrey. A.C. Evans gives Humphrey as the youngest son, and thus the birth date of 1468 does not fit if this is to be trusted.

I've also removed the ref. to HK as a knight due to lack of source.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.141.22.236 (talk) 01:05, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

It is difficult to know if you are the same person who suggested that HK's birth date is not known because you don't sign your posts. However, your comments suggest that you are. Can I ask that if you are making broad and definite statements that you show your evidence for them? Perhaps we can at least agree that his death was likely to have been in 1534/35.

Can you be more specific about your reference to A.C.Evans? How does a birth date of 1468 not fit with his being the youngest son? His parents were married in 1465. His elder sister, Jana, was born in 1466. His next younger brother, Lancelot, was born in 1469. His younger sister, Mary, was born in 1470. This seems to me like a fairly normal age progression for siblings following the marriage of their parents.

Although Thomas Cromwell ordered that parish records be kept from 1538, this does not preclude that other records were kept, so, absence of evidence does not mean evidence of absence! Have you actually had sight of the IGI microfilmed record? Can you state that they categorically don't contain any relevant historical information. I am planning to review the specific IGI microfilmed reference and will report back on my findings. Boatgypsy (talk) 22:09, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I am the same person. I don't have an account here. Re. A.C.Evans, his documents are detailed here: http://www.archiveswales.org.uk/anw/get_collection.php?inst_id=1&coll_id=159&expand=, filmed by the LDS. He calls Humphrey the youngest son and as such, is more likely to be born some time in the 1470s, but any date is pure speculation, particularly as the marriage date of 1465 is from an unknown source (other than the Visitation).

If you Google up info about his will, you will find the dates. I am not sure of any other credible source for his death.

There are no records pre-1541 for Myddle at Shropshire Archives. I'm sure many people would be interested if there is anything earlier. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.141.22.236 (talk) 20:24, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

I am still not clear as to why you assert that HK being the youngest son means that his date of birth is more likely to have been post 1470. What exactly does Evans say that casts doubt on this? HK's father was the right age, his mother was also of child bearing age. They marry at the right time. The putative dates of birth for his siblings, both older and younger, fit with his at 1468. If HK was the youngest son, as I agree he was (although he did have an older half-brother, Thomas), we shouldn't see him being born later than 1469, the DOB of his brother Lancelot. Is there any reason to disbelieve the 1623 visitation on the date of HK's parents marriage?

If your source of Evans and the text of the Visitation are at odds, it would be most useful to publish quotes from both. Are you able to give the relevant quotes from Evans?

I would also agree that Parish Records as such do not exist before the date you give, but other records clearly do exist.

We are not in disgreement about the date of his death, which must have been in the last months of 1534 or very early in January 1535. Given the usual delay in getting a will read after a death and burial, I would suggest it was more likely to have been sometime late 1534. Regards. Boatgypsy (talk) 10:15, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Final Word

I've again removed the reference to HK's YOB as c. 1468. There is no credible source for this date. User submitted entries to the LDS are not a credible source, nor amateur family history sites. There is no known primary source that lists HKs year or approx. year of birth because there were no mandatory birth registers at that time. Almost no one from this period has a record of their birth. The primary source of individual's YOBs in this period are ages listed in legal documents, and that I know of there is none for HK. There is however one for HK's father, Sir Roger, placing him as born 1432/3 (conflicting with the erroneous entry on this page [that I removed] of c. 1430 and the even more baffling year of death being given 1495/1517).

The source of HKs birth as 1468 is amateur genealogists who are coming up with ballpark dates based on sources we can only guess at OR none at all. These then get distributed around the web in a mess of unsourced works.

Please do not add details on HKs birth unless you have a real source, like a post mortem or funeral certificate, neither of which are known to exist. If you do, I will delete it again.

The visitation of Shropshire (taken in the 17th C.) gives his parents marriage as 1465 and the couple are attributed 11 children. Evans gives him as the youngest son, but how do we know he is correct? To assign HK an approx. year of birth means we have to rely on a single year ref. to a marriage recorded about 150 years later, the precedence of children recorded 100s of years later AND the biggest jump is that you have to guess the order of the birth of the children. Based on that, an approx. birth of 1468 would not be possible as HK had 3 or 4 brothers. --Squirelewis (talk) 02:02, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

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