Talk:Anti-Polish sentiment/Archive 12

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Lead

The previous version of the lead suffers from a number of issues:

• Defamation is false statement about a person, not a national group
• It's misleading to illustrate an article about anti-Polish prejudice with generic war victims who were killed as a result of war. The execution image is more relevant.
• According to scholarly sources, the mass killings of Poles in Volhnya were caused by Ukrainian nationalism, not hatred of Poles
• "Nazi Germany killed an estimated 2.8 million ethnic Poles" this is too high and not supported by the cited source
• "This prejudice led to mass killings and genocide or it was used to justify atrocities" also not supported by the cited source
• "rising workplace discrimination and criminal violence against Poles"
• Opinion piece by Swirski is not a RS

It would be better to work on improving the later version of the lead. (t · c) buidhe 16:30, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

• @Suppcuzz: I kindly request that you self-revert the misleading and erroneous content that your edit added. (t · c) buidhe 16:35, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

References

Hi mr User:Buidhe, I will agree to your revert, but please give me a good reason for deleting information about anti-Polish sentiment by German Nazis, Ukrainian nationalists and Soviet communists in the lead secton. By the way - if you claim that the Volhynian genocide was not driven by anti-Polish sentiment, then will you delete all the data about anti-Polish sentiment from this article: Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia ? Thank you. Suppcuzz (talk) 16:37, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Suppcuzz, The issue is that you need sources to back up all information. I quoted a source for Ukrainian issue but it is also far from settled that Soviet repressions were motivated by hatred of Poles per se:

"the Polish operation was not a systematic attempt to cleanse the Soviet Union of Poles... The testimony shows that the Polish operation was a blind strike against potentially hostile elements. People with any sort of foreign ties, including many non-Poles, were arrested and shot in this operation." https://www.jstor.org/stable/4147481 Of course, it is morally wrong to arrest and murder people based on imaginary conspiracies.

Actions in which anti-Polish motivation is disputed, such as the Ukrainian and Soviet cases (but not the Nazi one) are unlikely to be due weight in the lead, and if included would need to include, per NPOV, a note that not all scholars accept the theory that these actions were motivated by hatred of Poles per se (t · c) buidhe 17:03, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for your will to have a dialogue. I know that many scholars have different views but listen to this...

You said: Defamation is false statement about a person, not a national group - It is your personal hypothesis. If defamation is not aimed at a group of people, then why is there something like the Jewish Anti-Defamation League? What does it do then? Please explain.

And that is so controversial about this image that you want to delete it? - [1]

Moreover, in the article Soviet repressions of Polish citizens (1939–1946), it is stated:

"In the aftermath of the German and Soviet invasion of Poland, which took place in September 1939, the territory of Poland was divided in half between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. The Soviets had ceased to recognise the Polish state at the start of the invasion.[6][7] Both regimes were hostile to the Second Polish Republic as much as to the Polish people and their culture, thus aiming at their destruction."

Note, that anti-Polonism is not only hating Polish etnicity/people, but also hostility towards Polish culture. Soviets tried to wipe it from this world by murdering the Polish intelligentsia, scientists, researchers, historians, priests, doctors, military personnel etc. Weren't the Soviet actions anti-Polish then?

In the article Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia you can find these lines:

"An OUN order from early 1944 stated: Liquidate all Polish traces. Destroy all walls in the Catholic Church and other Polish prayer houses. Destroy orchards and trees in the courtyards so that there will be no trace that someone lived there.... Pay attention to the fact that when something remains that is Polish, then the Poles will have pretensions to our land".[116] UPA commander's order of 6 April 1944 stated: "Fight them [the Poles] unmercifully. No one is to be spared, even in case of mixed marriages".[117]"

If a mixed marriage didn't matter, because of the admixture of Polish blood, wasn't it an anti-Polish action? Moreover, Volhynian genocide of Poles is seen by many non-Polish scholars not as a genocide but an "ethnic cleansing". Now, isn't even an ethnic cleansing, aimed at one ethnicity, classified as a race-based crime? Suppcuzz (talk) 18:36, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

• We use that as it is a proper name, as is Polish League Against Defamation. But defamation in a generic sense does not encompass anti-national sentiment.
• It doesn't need to be removed. If it is not the lead image, it could be moved to "Invasion of Poland and World War II" section. The issue is the misleading war victims photograph.
• The double genocide theory is not generally accepted. As I stated above, some sources state that the Polish Operation and other anti-Polish actions were not motivated by hatred of Poles, but rather paranoia and fear that they were spies. These disputes and details simply do not belong in the lead of a general article.
• First, the source that you are quoting does not state that these actions are motivated by hatred of Poles per se. The OUN did not oppose Poles in general, merely wanted to remove them from certain areas. Its ideology was based on Ukrainian nationalism, territorial disputes with Poland, and the removal of non-Ukrainian elements (among others, Poles) from the territory they claimed for Ukraine. Hence the massacres are generally regarded as ethnic cleansing rather than genocide. And again, these are not details that belong in the lead of a general article about anti-Polish sentiment. (t · c) buidhe 19:12, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Let me answer you with some proper order:

• ad1: What does a generic sense has to do with the broad definition of defamation? I will give you an example - UEFA Euro 2012 hosted by Poland and Ukraine, a British TV station wants to make a defamatory documentary about Polish people, arrives to Poland and provokes the Polish football hooligans to make racist remarks, but their response is not satisfying, only anti-Semitic banners are seen. After that, the British TV crew travels straight to Ukraine, hears a lot of racist slogans, records it all, and after a week you have Ukrainian hools shouting racist things signed as "Polish hooligans" on British TV. Wasn't that defamatory?
• ad2: OK. The war victims image can be moved, but the "No entrance for Poles!" image should stay as the main, while it is a plain example of antipolonism.
• ad3: "Paranoia and fear that they were spies" - You are talking about later times of communist regime. What about the Soviet plans to destroy the whole Polish culture by performing mass-murder? The definition of anti-Polonism says: "negative attitudes, prejudices, and actions against Polish people and Polish culture." So?
• ad4: You say: "The OUN did not oppose Poles in general, merely wanted to remove them from certain areas." - So isn't "removing" a certain group of people of certain ethnicity, by performing mass-murder, a "negative attitude, prejudice, and action against..." by definition of anti-Polish sentiment? You also said that the Ukrainians performed a "removal of non-Ukrainian elements (among others, Poles)" - wrong - Please don't twist the history. Their main aim was to murder all Polish people, even children from mixed Polish-Ukrainian marriages, so there would be no Polish roots on this land at all. It was deeply racial. Some small percent of people murdered by the Ukrainian Insurgent Army were Jews, Armenians, and those Ukrainians who tried to help the Poles, but Polish people (mainly women and children) were over 90% of the victims and the #1 aim was to "liquidate all Polish traces" including Polish ethnicity. Now, knowing this fact, wouldn't you consider that anti-Polish?

By the way, please do not respond by writing your response between my text which is signed with my name at the end while I am not the author of your responses. Thank you. Suppcuzz (talk) 22:36, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

• If you look at Polish law, "insulting the Polish nation" (article 133)[2] is a separate offense from defamation (article 212)[3], which only applies to "osobę, grupę osób, instytucję, osobę prawną lub jednostkę organizacyjną niemającą osobowości prawnej" not the Polish nation. (Many people use such words imprecisely.)
• The problem with your reasoning here is that you assume that common sense, your opinion, or my opinion, is what decides if something is "anti-Polish". Here on Wikipedia we rely reliable sources. RS, as quoted above, do not say that Polish Operation or the ethnic cleansing of Poles in Volhynia was motivated by "anti-Polish sentiment", which is what this article is about. It's quite doubtful that the Soviet Union ever tried to "destroy the whole Polish culture by performing mass-murder". (t · c) buidhe 23:21, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Please stop reverting the edit without reaching consensus. [4]

• ad1: Do you know Polish language? You've just quoted a Polish text which proves what I've just said. Defamation can be aimed at a group of people, which means, that it can be aimed at Poles as a group of people, and then it is regarded anti-Polish.

If a person who hates Polish people starts spreading false statements and lies that eg. "Poles suck anti-Semitism with their mothers' milk" - isn't this defamation? Yes it is. Isn't it regarded as anti-Polish? It sure is. So what's your point?

If I said something defamatory about Jews, I would be called an anti-Semite immediately, but defaming the Poles is not anti-Polish???

• ad2: Oh really? You claim that Volhynian genocide was not motivated by anti-Polonsim? So what motivated the Genocide of Serbs in the Independent State of Croatia? Because I think one of the motives was anti-Serbian sentiment, wasn't it?

I'm asking because the genocide of Serbs by Croatian Ustase is in many aspects identical to the genocide of Poles by Ukrainian Banderites.

Moreover, if you claim otherwise, then why don't you delete all the sentences from the article Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia, that contain the phrase "anti-Polish". There are quite a few. Will you dare to do it? If not, why do you insist on deleting information about Volhynian genocide from the article about "anti-Polonism"? I'm trying to understand your actions.

As for the Soviets, you doubt about something which really happened in history (Katyn massacre). Soviet communists commited crimes against the Polish nation, so did the German Nazis and Ukrainian nationalist units (can a crime against a Polish nation be anti-Polish according to your logic??). Please read the article about Katyń, then rethink your points. Suppcuzz (talk) 19:45, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Again, the issue is that you're labeling things "anti-Polish" without citing WP:RS for this label. It may be obvious to you but on wikipedia we don't allow original research, you have to find RS to support any contention you'd like to make. (t · c) buidhe 00:38, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Please refer to my points (ad1 and ad2) instead of changing the topic to overall talk. Regards. Suppcuzz (talk) 15:13, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

So, User:Buidhe, you performed your edit, deleting defamation of Poles as being anti-Polonism, I suggested that when somebody defames Jewish people as a group eg. telling some false story about them, it would automatically be considered antisemitism, and so when someone defames Polish people as a group, it clearly should be considered antipolonism.

Afterwards you stated that what I say is, quote: "nonsense, you can defame an individual Jew but to denigrate Jews as a collective is not defamation (it is antisemitism though)" - [5].

As you see, my response to this was: "Oh really? So why there exists the Jewish Anti-Defamation League then? Defamation of the Polish nation is anti-Polonism. Stop reverting without discission!".

Noticing that I've refuted your point, but regardless of that, you reverted the orignal version of the article once again - [6].

Now, mr Buidhe, please stop avoiding the debate and start answering to my questions, do not revert the changes without discussion please. Suppcuzz (talk) 18:58, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

"Defamation"

I already explained several times that in Polish law, insulting the Polish nation is clearly distinguished from defamation of individual persons. This conflation of two distinct concepts is imprecise and unhelpful to our readers. As Suppcuzz points out, the word "defamation" is sometimes used in proper names, but that is no reason to misuse the word. Note that English language dictionaries state that it applies to individuals, not nationalities:

• Merriam-Webster defines the word as "the act of communicating false statements about a person that injure the reputation of that person" [7]
• Oxford: "the action of damaging the good reputation of someone"[8]
• Legal Dictionary: "the act of making untrue statements about another which damages his/her reputation"[9]

Etc. It does not benefit our readers to use words imprecisely. (t · c) buidhe 16:01, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Suppcuzz I hope this post answers your question. (t · c) buidhe 19:01, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

So, how would you call an act of creating a false, slanderous story about the Polish nation and lobbying it in the media worldwide in order to defame and humiliate Poles and Polishness on international level? I'm asking because this is the most common form of antipolonism nowadays, aside from burning Polish shops and murdering Poles in Western Europe just because someone heard Polish language. Suppcuzz (talk) 19:13, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Suppcuzz, First, you need a reliable source saying that the media deliberately create false stories "in order to defame and humiliate Poles and Polishness on international level". All Wikipedia content must be supported by reliable sources. (t · c) buidhe 19:28, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Please do not run away from my question. I'm just saying theoretically. Let's assume that I have evidence for that. Then, how would you call this act of deliberate slandering and humiliating the Poles on the worldwide stage? Suppcuzz (talk) 19:35, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

This talk page is not a forum for discussing the article topic, but specific improvements to the article. If you do find high-quality sources (preferably scholarly ones, certainly not opinion pieces) that say that it is true that media manufacture false stories about Poles in order to insult them, then we can discuss how to word it. (t · c) buidhe 20:15, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Answer my question. Let's take for instance the "Polish death camp" controversy. How would you call this lobby and a notion that it were not Germans but the Poles who runned the Holocaust, destroyed their own cities including Warsaw, and that the Warsaw Uprising didn't take place? What word would you use to describe harmful and false propaganda aimed at a specific nation or ethnic group? Suppcuzz (talk) 21:33, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Reliable sources say that most people who use the misleading phrase "Polish concentration camp" are referring to the camps' geographic location and do not intend to insult the Polish nation or imply that Poles ran the concentration camps.[10] I am not aware of anyone who claims that Poles destroyed Polish cities during World War II or that the Warsaw Uprising never happened. Reliable sources are needed here. (t · c) buidhe 00:42, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

What about the Polish League Against Defamation then? According to the sources, what is the aim of the organization? Answering your doubts, many public figures, including for example Yitzhak Shamir, Howard Stern, or Debbie Schlussel, claimed that Poles did not suffer the Holocaust but performed it instead, or at least took part as originators and perpetrators, and were eager for the WWII and Holocaust to take place, which of course is a false and derogatory statement aimed at the Poles to destroy the nation's reputation. I will repeat my question then - What word is proper to describe harmful and false propaganda aimed at a specific nation or ethnic group? Suppcuzz (talk) 16:21, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

Why Citation needed?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Polish_sentiment#:~:text=When%20Poland%20lost%20the%20last%20vestiges%20of%20its%20independence%20in%201795%20and%20remained%20partitioned%20for%20123%20years%2C%20ethnic%20Poles%20were%20subjected%20to%20discrimination%20in%20two%20areas%3A%20the%20Germanisation%20under%20Prussian%20and%20later%20German%20rule%2C%20and%20Russification%20in%20the%20territories%20annexed%20by%20Imperial%20Russia.%5Bcitation%20needed%5D

I'd really like to know what needs an additional citation here. It was very jarring to have to divert away from this topic to confirm the statement in each of the supplied links in this paragraph.

Turns out the whole statement was factually correct according to the articles linked. Eddie Green (talk) 21:02, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

You probably want to reorganize the text in such a way that there were no questions asked. according to the article linked -- germanizaion is linked to the articlre about germanization of Poles, while Russification links to a genertic article. Please replace it with Russification of Poles during the Partitions. Again, the text in this section looks somewhat chaotic. Possibly it may benefit from subsections. Lembit Staan (talk) 21:22, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Anti-Polish sentiment and Antisemitism

It would be interesting to see the article explore the aspect where people identifying or identified as Polish, due to general xenophobic attitude are also classed as Jews and subjected to antisemitic abuse. Since Poland is a successor state to the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth in which most Jews lived in early modern era), it could be that antisemitism is interlinked with anti-Polish sentiment, and vice versa. This happened to Marie Curie who came from Warsaw (at the time a city with a very large Jewish population), and was (mis)identified (assumed to be a Jew) and subjected to antisemitic abuse. Is it possible that there is a link between Antisemitism and antipolonism? It would be interesting to see this aspect explored. It could be that the anti-Polish sentiment in Germany of the past was driven further by the antisemitic prejudice, since Poland was a country with the largest Jewish population in the world at one point. 51.155.213.25 (talk) 16:04, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 January 2023

missing quatation mark at the end of this paragraph:

In February 2019, Poland's prime minister Mateusz Morawiecki canceled plans for his country to send a delegation to a meeting in Jerusalem on Monday after the acting Israeli foreign minister, Israel Katz said that Poles "collaborated with the Nazis" and "sucked anti-Semitism with their mothers' milk."[172] Zvi Bar, an Israeli brigadier general and politician, said that Katz was speaking as a 'student' of Yitzhak Shamir, "the father of Polish genetic theory" and said: "All right, there were Poles and Hungarians who collaborated, there were and are anti-Semitic Poles and Hungarians. But why generalize? Why be racist, why accuse these nations and attribute to them inherent anti-Semitic characteristics?[173] Chairgois (talk) 17:24, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

 Done Lemonaka (talk) 22:45, 9 January 2023 (UTC)