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'conflict' with ISO[edit]

In the "Unofficial codes for cryptocurrencies" it currently states that 6 cryptocurrencies 'conflict' with the ISO 4217. I think that statement is not true. A 3 cryptocurrency letter identifier like BTC, BNB, ADA, BSV, ETH and LTC does not conflict with a 2 letter identifier from the ISO like BT, BN, AD, BS, ET, LT. My suggestion is that we delete the notes on that. Agree?

The first Wikipedia question is: What is the reliable source of the statement?

Things we could look for in that reliable source: Do cryptocurrencies fall under the ISO 4217 norm?

According to the "NEN-ISO 4217:2015 en" Cite: "Codes for the representation of currencies 1 Scope This International Standard specifies the structure for a three-letter alphabetic code and an equivalent three-digit numeric code for the representation of currencies. For those currencies having minor units, it also shows the decimal relationship between such units and the currency itself. The scope of this International Standard also includes funds and precious metals."

Cite: "3.2 currency medium of exchange of value, defined by reference to the geographical location of the monetary authorities responsible for it"

For example: According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andorra the abbreviation AD is a ISO 3166 code. Nor in the ISO 3166 or ISO 4217:2015 states that ADA is reserved. Same for the others.

It's a potential conflict, in that the 26 BT* codes are effectively reserved for currencies of Bhutan, and BTL might one day become the Bhutanese Lira or similar, but that's my OR. It's a shame that the standard is greedily locked behind a paywall; I'd love to see an open-source replacement with compatible codes. Certes (talk) 20:57, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Usually whatever a country's CcTLD is, is also the currency codes reserved for that nation. For example.

  • The United States is: ".US" therefore: US dollar is "USD".
  • United Kingdom at first had ".GB", long before ".UK" so their's became "GBP" Great British Pound.
  • South Africa is ".ZA" therefore their currency code is "ZAR" (South Africa Rand).
  • Cuba is ".CU" therefore their **currencies codes** (plural) are "CUP" (Cuban Peso) and "CUC" (Cuban Convertible Peso)
  • Canada is ".CA" therefore their currency code is "CAD" (Canadian Dollar).
  • Japan is ".JP" therefore their currency code is "JPY" (Japanese Yen).
  • Australia is ".AU" therefore their currency code is "AUD" (Australian Dollar).
  • The Commonwealth of the Bahamas is ".BS" therefore their currencies codes are "BSD" (Bahamas dollar) and their new Sand dollar will likely by "BSx" (Whatever later they elect for "x". You get it surely. CaribDigita (talk) 04:28, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I get it, though dotted versions such as ".za" are internet top-level domains which occasionally vary from the ISO 3166 country codes on which ISO 4217 is based. The question is whether the paywalled ISO specification, or preferably a reliable source reporting it, explicitly states that (for example) the BSA–BSZ range is reserved for Bahamas, or it is simply a OR observation that it happens de facto. Certes (talk) 12:37, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The intent of ISO 4217 is to agree with ISO 3166. But as I stated there's a few variations for example some country names have changed over time or places like UK used to use the domain name .GB but retired that in favour of .UK. It states right on ISO's website that 4217 comes from 3166.
(quote)"The alphabetic code is based on another ISO standard, ISO 3166, which lists the codes for country names. The first two letters of the ISO 4217 three-letter code are the same as the code for the country name, and, where possible, the third letter corresponds to the first letter of the currency name.
For example:
The US dollar is represented as USD – the US coming from the ISO 3166 country code and the D for dollar.
The Swiss franc is represented by CHF – the CH being the code for Switzerland in the ISO 3166 code and F for franc."(end quote) CaribDigita (talk) 18:46, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
ISO say that (for example) a currency in the country with code CH has a code beginning with CH. They do not explicitly state the converse: that codes beginning with CH are reserved for that country. Common sense tells us that CHZ will not be allocated for some other purpose, but reliable sources do not, so we should probably let readers make that leap of faith for themselves. Certes (talk) 23:54, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You asked for it, and ISO 4217 told you on their website that was how they created it. A two digit code which is based ion ISO 3166's code, plus a letter they seek to assign based on the name of a currency, what's confusing about that? It's not ISO's fault that Bitcoin chose BT and didn't think 'Oh geez that belongs to the country assigned to .bt (Bhutan).' How is that original research? Whomelse is going to get CHZ besides Switzerland? Since Switzerland controls "CH"?

That's like arguing the phone number starting with +1.212. doesn't belong to Manhattan, New York City. CaribDigita (talk) 00:13, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It's hardly worth spending so much time on such a minor detail, but we're dealing with two assertions here:
  1. All Bhutan codes will begin with BT;
  2. All codes beginning with BT are reserved for Bhutan.
The first does not imply the second, in the same way that "all dogs are animals" does not imply "all animals are dogs". ISO 4217 confirms the first statement; it's a primary source but we can probably find reliable secondary sources that repeat it. The second statement also seems to be true, but our observation doesn't seem to be documented anywhere. Certes (talk) 00:29, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • [1] says otherwise. IS0 4217 says the code is three letters long. The first two belong to the country as spelled out under ISO 3166. The last letter would be a currency name. So I don't see how: "CHA, CHB, CHC, CHD, CHE, CHF, CHG, CHH, CHI, CHJ, CHK, CHL, CHM, CHN, CHO, CHP, CHQ, CHR, CHS, CHT, CHU, CHV, CHW, CHX, CHY, CHZ." is going to be any other nation beside Switzerland. Therefore A-Z of the last letter would be reserved for that nation. Who are you implying is going to get any of these 3 letter combinations? bearing in mind the ISO syntax as spelled out on? - https://www.iso.org/iso-4217-currency-codes.html CaribDigita (talk) 05:32, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@CaribDigita: @Certes: The assertion is correct. As per ISO 4217:2015 paragraph 5.1.4:

Where the currency is not associated with a single ISO 3166-1 geographical entity, then the following cases apply:

  1. In the case of the European Union and the euro, the ISO 3166 Maintenance Agency explicitly accepted to reserve the alpha-2 code element “EU” for the European Union to use “EUR” for the purposes of this International Standard.
  2. In the case that the currency is emitted by a monetary authority, the code shall be allocated by the Maintenance Agency from within the user-assigned range of codes XA to XZ specified in ISO 3166-1:2013, 8.1.3.
This confirms that only codes EUR and XAA to XZZ can be assigned under the standard to currencies not issued by countries. Most cryptocurrencies don't even meet the standard to have codes assigned at all, given they aren't issued by the European Union or a monetary authority (and I suspect the EU can't just decide to replace the Euro with a cryptocurrency using the same code, either...). Theknightwho (talk) 12:43, 31 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. The next section of this talk page is also relevant. Certes (talk) 12:54, 31 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal: delete list of cryptocurrencies and their TLAs[edit]

The TLAs used by cryptocurrencies are just that, TLAs. They are as unrelated to ISO 4317 as are the TLAs used by the Internet Engineering Task Force, Wikimedia, Microsoft, or anyone else. Their presence here in the body of the article implies some status within the ISO standard when none exists. The most it deserves, IMO, is a mention in See Also.

Is there any convincing reason to retain? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 11:51, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support, unless someone can find these codes in ISO 4217. They're not currencies, nor (as far as I know) official extensions like XAU. We could retain the section with its single paragraph of text and hatnote to List of cryptocurrencies, or simply move that link to See also. That list has a better list of codes, some of which conflict with potential currencies or are not three letters. Certes (talk) 13:14, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support unless they are actually in the standard ISO 4217. I doubt they are because in many cases they are not even compatible with ISO 4217. We could of course provide a link to a more appropriate article if required. Kahastok talk 16:15, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, but I think we need a suitable replacement. I don't really care about cryptocurrencies, but presumably some people want to know what the various codes are. We also need to justify why we're deleting these but not the other non-ISO codes. 16:03, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
    • The cryptos are the most glaring exception. I also believe that the Russian-occupied territories should go too, but I will make a new proposal for that. I will also propose deletion of notional currencies, like UK and Danish crown territories that are not independent (which is why they don't have an ISO code). I would welcome suggestions about how to handle ForEx shorthand like RMB (Renminbi, CNY) and STG (sterling, GBP) and errors like BDS (for BBD). IMO, the whole section #Non ISO 4217 currencies should collapse to two or three sentences. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 16:21, 31 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      • The problem with this is that it assumes that no-one actually uses these codes, which isn't entirely true. Even the notional ones are used in numismatics, for example. I think we could split it off into its own article, which may be a better approach. Theknightwho (talk) 18:53, 31 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
        Yes, the article is about an ISO standard and should only include codes relevant to the standard. List of widely used codes for things that resemble currencies might be a very useful article, much of which would be a section starting {{Main article|ISO 4217}}, but perhaps it's not this article. Certes (talk) 19:08, 31 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
        Best of luck with that, you will need it. Avoiding OR and SYNTH will be difficult. Also we don't want to do anything that might suggest that the Russian occupation of parts of Georgia, Moldova and Ukraine – or the puppet regimes that Putin has installed there – has any legitimacy. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 19:57, 31 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Cryptocurrency TLAs done. Promissory notes issued in the Russian occupied territories not done, needs a new discussion I suggest - anyone? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 19:41, 3 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Retrospectively assigned codes, and confirming ARY[edit]

I can confirm that ARY does in fact refer to the Argentine peso ley. Here's my exchange with the Publications Office of the European Union to confirm. For context, this refers to the list of currencies they publish, which formerly included a bunch of additional codes that are not part of the standard (such as ARL).

Me:

I understand that you have previously been in contact with a different user as regards the ISO 4217 Wikipedia page; specifically the list of currency codes published at https://op.europa.eu/en/web/eu-vocabularies/concept-scheme/-/resource?uri=http://publications.europa.eu/resource/authority/currency.

As a result of that discussion, it appears that the code ARL for the Argentine peso ley (used from 1970 to 1983) was retired without replacement. I wanted to bring your attention to the historic code list of ISO 4217, which contains the code ARY under the name "Peso" for Argentina. Given that there have been several Argentine pesos, this naturally presents a point of confusion. However, having looked into the background of this, I am confident that it does in fact refer to the peso ley.

I have checked both the 1978 and 1981 editions of ISO 4217. Argentina was given the currency code ARP back in 1978 (though the first edition did not assign currency names), and again in 1981 with the currency name "Peso". Crucially, however, that this did not change in 1983 when the peso ley was replaced by the peso argentino. Argentina's currency code only changed in 1985, when the peso argentino was replaced by the austral (ARA). It appears that during this period, the ISO sometimes neglected to assign new three letter codes when a country replaced its currency, and that this practice only tightened up once the 1990 edition was released, at which point the ISO retrospectively designated currency codes for the older currencies that had become ambiguous.

For example:

  1. The 1981 edition assigns Israel the currency code ILS under the name "Shekel". The latest edition assigns ILS to the Israeli new shekel, but this was only introduced in 1986. Between 1980 and 1986 Israel used the (old) shekel, which has been retrospectively given the code ILR in the historic list.
  2. The 1978 edition assigns Iceland the currency code ISK. The latest edition assigns ISK to the current króna, but this was only introduced in 1981 (making the 1981 edition ambiguous). The old króna has been retrospectively given the code ISJ in the historic list, however.
  3. The 1978 and 1981 editions assign Vietnam the currency code VND, the latter with the name "Dong". The latest edition assigns VND to the current đồng, but this was only introduced in 1985. The old đồng has been retrospectively given the code VNC in the historic list.

By analogy, it therefore follows that ARY was intended for the Argentine peso ley, which was the currency in use when the 1978 and 1981 editions were released.

Response:

Thank you very much for your feedback on the historic context of the Argentine peso ley.

We have been examining the historic code lists a.o., and ARY is indeed the foreseen code for the Argentine peso ley, and a change of our corresponding authority table to be done.

Translations in all EU languages are necessary for the concept in question, therefore we will plan to have this update of the ‘Currency’ authority table ready for our publication in December 2022 (Releases - EU Vocabularies - Publications Office of the EU (europa.eu)).

Please do not hesitate to contact us further for any questions or feedback regarding the currency codes.

Thank you.

Theknightwho (talk) 15:40, 31 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Origin of historical codes[edit]

I added an indirect reference to the start of these historical denominations. They didn't exist before december 1988, when they were formally approved at a general meeting. This document is the only source as the archives send by BSO to Switserland, when they changed the agency in charge, got completely lost! May be there is a local agency or a member who has still copies of the original request done in April/May through Gunnar Sundblad (not the one of the Foundation) or the letter of approval. Until then it is difficult to confirm that the request was made by Rinet sc, located in Brussels. 2A02:A03F:6AF4:4200:10B4:1D59:9D3D:66A7 (talk) 16:03, 7 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the info - I'd been trying to find out when these were introduced. Theknightwho (talk) 15:24, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Source of the Standard available[edit]

Template {{ISO 4217/cite}} now has the source (definition) of the ISO 4217 codes & currencies. See its documentation for use options. This article may need a check. As a bulletlist, the sources are:

Website:

  • "Data Standards, ISO 4217 - Currency Code Maintenance: Get the Correct Currency Code". www.six-group.com. SIX Group. 2022-10-01.

Definition files:

DePiep (talk) 13:31, 26 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Numeric Code in ISO 4217[edit]

The ISO 4217 published Standard has Numeric Code for the codes. However, its definition and its usage are unknown. Does someone have any decisive description of Numeric Code? So far, in {{Infobox currency}} the Numeric is to be removed. DePiep (talk) 13:16, 2 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Citation links bug or problem[edit]

I'm seeing the links repeated four times. I'm supposing there's a problem with {\{ISO_4217/cite}} in which it no longer filters correctly. Can anyone fix it?

ADTC Talk Ctrb 06:39, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Fixed. Thanks for the notification. DePiep (talk) 08:39, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Kosovo[edit]

In the long list of locations for the EUR, one is given as “Kosovo (XK)”. The “XK” is not official ISO 3166-1 alpha-2, which reserves the X… for user-defined purposes. But lots of countries do use XK for Kosovo (partial list on one of my github pages). I propose to delete the “ (XK)”. Objections? JDAWiseman (talk) 20:52, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Locations using the EUR[edit]

The long list of locations for the EUR seems to be in a jumbled order, neither alphabetically, nor by GDP. Would there be any objections to the list being ordered as: EU; then official members ordered by GDP = DE FR IT ES NL BE AT GR PT FI IE SK HR LT SI LV LU EE CY MT; then others alphabetically either by 3166 code or by GDP. JDAWiseman (talk) 20:56, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

They seem to be almost alphabetical. Maybe make them properly alphabetical but perhaps with the EU first? I think that just means moving Åland and French Guiana. Certes (talk) 21:33, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, make them properly alpha but the EU can't be in it because (a) it is not a state and (b) not all members use the euro. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 23:06, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The EU is a pseudo-state with an approximation to a government and its own (exceptionally reserved) ISO 3166-1 alpha-2 code sharing a prefix with EUR. It probably has as much claim to statehood as French Guiana, for example. I think the EU qualifies as a "location" for the purposes of this table. Certes (talk) 10:32, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No, it is not a pseudo-state. It is not even legally a federation, despite having many of the characteristics of one. It doesn't have a government as such: it is governed by the European Council – the heads of national governments – which is like a collective prime-ministry, and by the Council of Ministers – the respective ministers of national governments responsible for each function (e.g., Environment). (The Commission is not a government, it is more a civil service.) All that is really beside the point: we can't say [without qualification] that the EU uses the euro, when Denmark, Poland, Sweden etc don't use it.
The ISO 3166-1 alpha-2 code "EU" is a region code, not a country code.
Yes, it has as much claim to statehood as French Guiana – none whatsoever. French Guiana is legally part of France, just not on the mainland (like Corsica). --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 11:01, 3 July 2023 (UTC) [revised to add the CoM, 14:11, 3 July 2023 (UTC)][reply]
it may be more a question of expression, because the euro is the official currency of the EU. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 15:08, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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