Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Scotland/Archive 9

Aberdeen
Aberdeen
City
	Aberdeen
	Coordinates: 57°9′N 2°6′W / 57.150°N 2.100°W
Country	Scotland

This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 5

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Photograph is not of McCaskill?

An odd little discussion at Talk:Angus MacAskill, which I moved on to File talk:MacAskill with Tom Thumb.jpg that someone may be able to resolve. Is it a photo of the bold Angus or of the Belgian giant J. Bihin? 10:04, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

List of gangs in Glasgow

This article was created back in November 2009 and since then it's become a magnet for vandalism and unsourced additions by IP editors. It has been reverted a couple of times to previous versions, but can someone from this project who is familiar with this topic take a look at the article? Thanks, PDCook (talk) 22:19, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

I just want to draw attention to this issue again. The article continues to be edited by IP editors making unsourced changes. P. D. Cook ^{Talk to me!} 00:43, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Quite right. Ideally it would either be prodded, or there would be in-line citations for the gangs mentioned by sources and anything else removed. The latter would require some initial work, and fairly constant vigilance or semi-protection. Ben Mac Dui 07:35, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Jim Murphy

We seem to have an anonymous editor who wants to share their memories of Jim Murphy with the world. Unfortunately, this isn't really in line with our WP:BLP policy, among others. I'll not be around much this week, so if anyone would care to watchlist this article that would be great. Angus McLellan (Talk) 18:28, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

The Links betwen Scotland and Flanders

Hi I am interested in the Links between Scotland and Flanders . Scotland - lion rampant Flanders - Lion Rampant

In particular the links with Berwick as the "New Alexandria" , in terms of Importnat trading links with Mainland Europe ie Flanders , superior technology , in weaving , which led to Scotland as the Main Wool Exporter in Europe , contributing to the Weath of the Abbeys of Melrose , Red Hall etc in Berwick , and the Links with Robert deBruce( deBruges) , to see the Dynastic struggle in a European Context as the Flemish Law of Succession ie of the Flemish Royal line , from the time atleat of King David I who married Queen Mahilda of Flanders .

Template:Location map Scotland Edinburgh

Hi. I made a new map for Edinburgh to put landmarks on with a pin. See Balmoral Hotel for how it works. If anybody wants me to make similar maps of Glasgow, Aberdeen, Dundee or wherever let me know. I am happy to also make them in two different scales, one further out capturing the suburns and one capturing the main urban core. If people could add these to infoboxes for Edinburgh landmarks this would be great. If the infoboxes for some reason don't accept pushpin let me know as I'm hopgin soon enough to introduce them to all building/landmark infoboxes. Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 20:52, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Nice one! It would be good to have one of these for Aberdeen, and I like the idea of suburban and central areas at different scales. Maybe one to cover the whole of Aberdeenshire as well. One of these days I may have a go at tidying up some of the Aberdeen and Aberdeenshire articles, many of which are in a bit of a mess. --Deskford (talk) 21:31, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Yeah. What I mean is see Template:Location map United Kingdom Greater Liverpool, Template:Location map United Kingdom Liverpool and Template:Location map United Kingdom Liverpool Central for what I mean. I don't plan on creating three for every city, it was just a trial and error... I can make a Greater Glasgow/Aberdeen and a central Glasgow/Aberdeen maps. I can also make a more central Edinburgh map if you want it. I'll do that tomorrow for you. If anybody specifially wants an even more detailed map of a suburn or district of these cities so you can make out roads let me know. You'll have to ask me on my talk page though!! Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 21:55, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Great stuff. I'd suggest that the priorities would be in order :

- Central Edinburgh
- Greater/midsize Glasgow
- Greater Edinburgh (ie what you've already done)
- Central Glasgow

and then worry about eg midsize Aberdeen. A general map of the Stirling/Perth area might be useful too, especially for the medieval project as there were so many military campaigns etc in that neck of the woods. Being an old city, Edinburgh really crams in a lot within walking distance of the centre, whereas Glasgow largely postdates the railways so developed in a more spread out fashion - and its articles tend to be about bigger things like shipbuilders, whereas Edinburgh has a lot of articles on statues and the like. It's really obvious where the interesting bits of Edinburgh are if you look at Google Maps with the wiki layer turned on, they're crammed into a box between the Meadows-Queen St Gardens and Holyrood-Lothian Rd. The UK articles are pretty well geotagged these days and Google seems to have caught up with them at long last, so it should be a fairly reliable guide. FlagSteward (talk) 17:11, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Sure, I'll create them this evening. Will do Stirling/Perth as well. Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 17:58, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Aargh I made all the maps you requested and one of Sterling and one of Dundee but they didn't come out right. I tried uploading a few and they came out as like 97px. The only successful two I had were Template:Location map Scotland Edinburgh Central (see Balmoral Hotel now) and Template:Location map Scotland Glasgow. I'll try making the others again later, I think I must have exceeded the map limit... Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 10:25, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Right. If I upload them one at a time it seems to work. I've now made Template:Location map Scotland Glasgow Central. See Glasgow International Hilton Hotel for it in use. If you like I can make an even more central map of literally the city centre. If so I can move the current Glasgow map to Greater Glasgow and the current Central map to simply Glasgow. Up to you folks. Now I'll try Aberdeen..

Here you go Template:Location map Scotland Aberdeen see Central Library, Aberdeen. A lot of work needs doing with adding infoboxes to Aberdeen structure articles. If you want I can make a central Aberdeen one too. Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 10:52, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I've tried this out on Aberdeen Arts Centre and it looks good. I'll start adding it to other articles, but it will be a slow process as I am busy on other projects at the moment. A more detailed version for the city centre would be useful. Many thanks! --Deskford (talk) 12:52, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

In that case heres another present Template:Location map Scotland Aberdeen Central. Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 16:23, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

If you want any maps of Scottish islands like the one for Beaumaris Castle too let me know. Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 16:24, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I've created Template:Location map Scotland Aberdeenshire. See it in use on the right and in the article Crathes Castle. I know it includes some territory of neighbouring counties but it is supposed to just be a segment of Scotland. If you like I'd be happy to create some maps like this for each area of Scotland, I'm doing the same with Wales see Template:Location map Wales Pembrokeshire and I'd be happy to create the map with a window locator in the corner so you know where in Scotland it is like the Wales ones. However, a consensus will be needed. Personally I think such a map shown on the right (with a county locator of Scotland added in the corner) is a better scale than the current one being used for all Scottish settlements. If you disagree please let me know. What 'm trying to say is that the current map being used to locate places like Aberdeen is twice the height than it needs to be. It doesn't really need to include Shetland. Regional maps can be made a segments of Scotland window added in the corner like the one on the right. Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 17:06, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

This is all wonderful stuff. However, I am also a fan of things Shetlandic and I dislike these boxes - just out of curiosity are you aware of other national maps that don't include the entire country in the correct place? Denmark & Norway must have problems with Greenland and Svalbard, but they are much more distant. Ben Mac Dui 19:28, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm with Ben MacDui on this one! Putting Shetland in a box gives people a false impression of the overall shape of Scotland. It has to be said that the Shetlanders themselves often commit a similar injustice when they put Fair Isle and Foula in boxes in the margin of maps of Shetland. --Deskford (talk) 19:48, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I'd support cropping out the islands. It's nothing to do with "justice" and everything to do with effective communication, which should be a priority in everything we do on Wikipedia. It's just a lot easier to see where something is on a bigger scale map, and cropping out the Northern Isles (and to a lesser extent the Hebrides) just allows the map to be bigger and clearer. There's also a secondary benefit in that more of the infobox appears above the pagefold. If you want other examples, US articles like Seattle crop out Alaska, which is probably closer than Shetland in percentage terms, never mind Hawaii and the other Pacific territories. On the flip side, why should Scottish maps exclude the rest of the United Kingdom? Melrose has far more in common with Berwick than it ever will with Stornoway, and as far as the rest of the world is concerned, it's all the same country.... I won't open that can of worms. :-)) I note that some English articles go the other way, they use a box to zoom in - eg Portsmouth - which probably works best for things like unitary authorities that are small areas but not discrete "points".

Great stuff Blofeld by the way. That Aberdeenshire map works well - perhaps you could do similar big "slices" - northern Highlands, southern Highlands (both overlapping at Inverness), Central Belt and Borders?FlagSteward (talk) 13:06, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. Well I also am a fan of the Shetland and islands, I love rural places but I just think the current map being used although it hasuseful relief is not economical in terms of space. You can crop a bit of Scotland which inlucees the county and feature landmarks of it and have a map of Scotland in the corner. It isn't "dissing" Shetland or the rest of the country so to speak but it is just presented to the reader with a better focus in my view. I would be happy to create more maps, although for Highland such is the scale I can't fit the entirely of the big region in in one map and if I do it the next scale smaller it is a little too small. The best thing would be to create a Highland North and a Highland south map with overlapping territory. If you have a window map in the corner readers can see what part of the country you are showing anyway... Would you also like me to create a location map Shetland Isles? Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 13:25, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

What do people think of the relief map on the right? You folks like relief maps don't you?... I could make relief maps of areas of Scotland? Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 12:10, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Relief maps are great for some things - in the Highlands they really help tell the story of military campaigns/castles for instance, whereas in the Central Belt road maps are more useful. Just one thing though - a red pointer won't be much use on the mountainous bits, and red pointers on green lowlands is not very helpful for most colour-blind people. Perhaps you could desaturate the colours on the map a bit and then use a black pointer (like eg Dalmore House and Estate, although the map is still a bit too saturated in my eyes) - or a saltire would give good contrast!!! FlagSteward (talk) 13:44, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree. I would actually recolour them blank white/cream if I could but I don't know how to do it. Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 13:47, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Tagging and organising

I've now got a bit of time to work on my promise from last June. I've got about 6500 non-bio articles awaiting tagging for WP Scotland, although I haven't gone through them to just check their suitability manually yet. There's also a couple of thousand more for the daughter projects. It occurs to me that before doubling the size of the Project, it might be a good idea to clean up what is already there. My thoughts were something along that suggested by Ben previously, to not tag things with the main project "if they clearly fall under the scope of one of the sub-projects unless they are of high or top importance" and I'm unenthusiastic about doing things like albums which have an active Project of their own and as Ben says, discourage people here from more specifically Scottish articles.
I think part of the problem is that the importance tags are all over the place, so don't really do their job of funnelling people towards the articles that need work - for instance at one stage there was a whole load of fairly minor post-1707 laws tagged with both England and Scotland and a whole load of other Projects, at either High or even Top priority. Some of the stats I gather for my bot could help sort those out a bit, if people thought that was worth doing. I could also knock articles down into the daughter projects if people thought that was a good idea. Just thinking out loud, would things like the Edinburgh and Glasgow projects fit better as taskforces of the main Scotland WP banner rather than as separate Projects, to emphasise the unity of WP Scotland? I'm not fussed either way, but I know some people can have strong views on that kind of thing and it can be easier to sort it out before I get tagging. It seems the worklist is growing, but I'll get on with the backlog of assessments first before I add more articles.FlagSteward (talk) 19:07, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Again, great stuff and thank you - and I have a question. I saw your change to Talk:History of Christianity in Scotland - diff with the comment "Barely 100 page view a month doesn't justify high". Now I don't doubt that few people do read the article, but the topic strikes me as being genuinely important. If for example, Celtic FC sign a striker from Barcelona next week (in their dreams) this would no doubt generate a large number of hits but this cannot be the only criterion. I thought I'd bring it here rather than just grumble on behalf of a millennium of Christian activity on that page. Ben Mac Dui 19:36, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

On the other hand I see you have just made Skye and Irn-Bru "High" based on page hits - what's not to like! Ben Mac Dui 19:40, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

:-) I hated myself for doing that to HCS, but you have to remember that the importance tag is not so much about the "importance" of a subject, but the priority of working on that article. I'd emphasise that I don't assess on a simplistic view of page views, that leads you to a strange world where Gerard Butler is more important than the whole of Scotland, whilst David Tennant, Ewan McGregor and Susan Boyle are all more important to Scotland's history than William Wallace! So there's a lot of thought and umming and ahhing involved and I probably reassess about a third of articles that "should" be reassigned on the basis of a simple hitcount. I do discount heavily for celebrity - film, music and football - and I emphasise filling in the gaps between other Projects, so I don't think we should be so worried about eg dog articles which are also "disproportionately" popular. The numbers differ for each Project, but you do find subjective assessments following page views surprisingly closely in the main part - for Scotland the Lows are roughly <300/month, and the Highs above 2500-3000/month. Those boundaries aren't fixed, I'll stretch one category for things that are subjectively "important" or are core articles at the top of a hierarchy (eg Architecture of Scotland still makes it to High despite only 412 views/month), but HCS was just a stretch too far. I was going to post about it anyway because I suspect that lack of page views reflects underlying problems as much as lack of interest, I'll post separately on that. Conversely it does impose a bit of objectivity on something that is vulnerable to people's pet biases. For instance, I can't believe that Caithness, Ayrshire and Skye were all Mids when someone had put High on every little skirmish in Bruce's campaign against Valence. The fact remains that if an editor works on eg HCS and Covenanter, their efforts will be seen by just one person at HCS for every 100 that reads the Covenanter article. You obviously don't want to ignore HCS totally but logic dictates that the Covenanter article is more of a priority to work on.FlagSteward (talk) 14:32, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Listed buildings in Scotland

There is currently a list of Grade I listed buildings for each English county, but currently no lists of the equivalent Category A buildings in Scotland. To fill this gap, I have begun gathering information, and have set up a 'template' article, covering the Clackmannanshire area (mainly because it is a small and manageable list!). This draws on existing featured lists such as Grade I listed buildings in Manchester and Grade I listed buildings in Taunton Deane. Since this would be the first of potentially 32 lists, I'd like to get it right from the start. The draft page is at User:Jonathan Oldenbuck/LB in Clacks, I'd welcome any comment or suggestions for improvement. Thanks, Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 10:43, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Draft page now moved to mainspace at List of Category A listed buildings in Clackmannanshire. Thanks, Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 08:48, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Rewriting the history of Christianity

I'd intended to post about this before Ben mentioned it above. Something's not quite right in the Religion in Scotland hierarchy. Most religions have separate articles like Buddhism in Scotland, apart from Christianity in Scotland which just redirects to the main RiS article. Which is fair enough, but it mebbe breaks the hierarchy a bit and I guess one option could be to turn the redirect into a full-blown article, perhaps largely incorporating History of Christianity in Scotland. As it is we have two largely overlapping articles - HCS and Christianity in Medieval Scotland, neither of which get read much (~120 views/month and ~500views/month). For such important topics this suggests that something's not working rather than a genuine lack of interest in something with such a rich history. Maybe we just need to WP:Build the web a bit - HCS wasn't even linked in the history section of RiS before I put in a {{main}} link, but I wonder if we need to do something more fundamental about the way these articles are organised?FlagSteward (talk) 14:31, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Black Watches, Scottish national identity

Two other articles that I've encountered in my travels. I know it's been proposed before, but Black Watch and Black Watch (Royal Highland Regiment) need to be either merged or reorganised so that one contains just a summary of the other in a proper parent/daughter hierarchy. At the moment you've got two articles that pretty much duplicate each other, which is the worst of both worlds.

Scottish national identity is a right dog's dinner, apart from needing a major copy-edit it is aiming completely at the wrong target - it's more like an account of the Central Belt's attitudes to England since the Union than what the title implies. With a big chunk of History of Scottish devolution. If anyone fancies making it reflect attitudes from Lerwick to Ayr, and to acknowledge that Scotland existed before 1707.... There's also a specific issue relating to the Sunday Herald archive if anyone has easy access, I've mentioned it on the Talk page.

Councils vs Places

UK Local Authorities are inherently notable. Yet many council names are currently redirects to articles about places; which are not the same thing at all. I feel we should do the same for all authorities which don't at the moment have their own articles. For example, I recently split Walsall Metropolitan Borough Council out from Metropolitan Borough of Walsall. I started a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Politics of the United Kingdom#Councils vs Places; what are your thoughts? Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 11:46, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Piobaireachd aka Pibroch

A minor controversy has broken out at Pibroch where one user and a small number of apparently single or at least little used anons etc. seem keen to remove most references to "Pibroch" and replace them with "Piobaireachd" with our without accents. The talk page consensus (such as it is with so few contributors) suggests little support for the latter version, although editors should form their own opinion. Either way, a few extra watchers would not go amiss for the time being. Ben Mac Dui 17:31, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Falls of Cruachan derailment

The Falls of Cruachan derailment article has been nominated for deletion. Mjroots (talk) 06:33, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Persistent IP Vandal

Could some admin *please* do something about User:193.63.72.130? I know it's a shared IP but I'm being led a merry chase around Wikipedia and they're vandalising as fast as I can revert and I'm getting tired of it. Akerbeltz (talk) 13:31, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Now blocked until Friday evening. Ben Mac Dui 17:46, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Whew, time to catch my breath ;) Cheers! Akerbeltz (talk) 17:50, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Museum prizes

I note that "The Signpost is delighted to report the announcement of the British Museum's Featured Article Prize: five prizes of £100 (≈$140/€120) at their shop/bookshop for new Featured Articles on topics related to the British Museum." Lewis chessmen anyone? The "controversy" section would need especial care of course. Ben Mac Dui 17:13, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Mane

Tiree contains the following: "Writing in 1549, Donald Munro, High Dean of the Isles wrote of "Thiridh" that it was: "ane mane laich fertile fruitful cuntrie". I have tried to provide a translation into modern English in a footnote but what, in this context, does "mane" mean - "mainly"? Ben Mac Dui 17:34, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

At the Dictionary of the Scots Language (sorry, can't seem to link to individual words) it includes the above quote under main's definition as, "DOST 1. 6. b: Low-lying and fertile". It notes cf. Main-land. Mutt Lunker (talk) 18:09, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks that's very helpful. Although I am not in a position to question this authority, if this is true "mane laich fertile" would mean "Low-lying and fertile and low-lying and fertile". I suppose Munro was emphasising the excellence of Tiree's land. Ben Mac Dui 08:04, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Aye, there's nothing like a good dose of tautology to drive a point home. Mutt Lunker (talk) 10:30, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Infobox Map

There is current disagreement on the map used in the Scottish place infobox template. I should preface this request for comment with the statement that while the old map that I prefer was created by me I am in no way attached to it (alternatives and multiple choices are more than welcome to be put forward), but rather I am a firm believer in the principles of consensus building and content decisions being made by editors, not being enforced by "everything must be the same" crowd without discussion or consensus building. Consequently I am seeking feedback on the infobox map from others, because I feel that the "standardisation" methodology essentially short-circuits the very philosophy and wiki principles of WP. SFC9394 (talk) 22:08, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Standardisation is only one point. The other pluses I've described at the template discussion page. --Obersachse (talk) 12:42, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

I thought that this was sorted, but apparently not and the discussion has gone stale. Further input needed - please see the above link. Ben Mac Dui 18:44, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Obersachse has a long standing obession to revert every relief map even though the consensus with WP:Scotland is to have a relief map. If he perissts either report him to an adminstrator or keep reverting him. He thinks he can overpower the consensus of entire wikiprojects. Well the consensus with Wp:Scotland is to use a relief map, right? Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 10:01, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

It would appear so. Let's hope this now dealt with. Ben Mac Dui 17:33, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Articles for the smaller militant Scottish nationalist groups?

I've been putting together articles on various of the smaller militant/terrorist groups for ethnic and religous minorities, and ran across a few names of Scottish nationalist groups that don't yet have an article, mentioned in this book: Law, power, and justice in England and Wales By Ian K. McKenzie. I find bits and pieces of mention of the SRA various places online, but nothing reputably citeable. Are the Scottish Republican Army, the Tartan Army (distinct from the football hooligan club?) or the Army of the Provisional Government of Scotland worth covering as individual organisations? MatthewVanitas (talk) 16:04, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

I may be wrong, but I suspect they are such marginal groups that it would be difficult to find reliably sourced material to cover. --Deskford (talk) 16:34, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

That Tartan Army was pretty obscure and entirely unconnected to the supporters of Scotland's national football team. And, though I'm sure there was no ill intent, please don't characterise the latter as a hooligan club. Try Britain's Secret War - Tartan Terrosrism and the Anglo-American State by Andrew Murray Scott and Iain Macleay, published by Mainstream Publishing in 1990, ISBN 1 85158 306 8. Mutt Lunker (talk) 16:41, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Translation help: Scottish Gaelic

Hello, as part of the reviewing trial, I just accepted an edit] on good faith. Could someone please take a look, and undo it if it's incorrect? Thanks, –Schmloof (talk · contribs) 21:30, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Done, they were both wrong. Akerbeltz (talk) 20:41, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Non-villages in Aberdeenshire

Fellow Scotland editors, could I please draw your attention to recent discussions at Talk:Cairnorrie about some articles on Aberdeenshire places far too small to call villages, and invite further comment? --Deskford (talk) 22:35, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

FREEMAN ON THE LAND

i am currently researching the free man on the land concept, the use of the notice of understanding and intent and claim of rihgt and of the notary public amoungst a host of other topics. the only thing is it all seems to be either England, Canada or the U.S. it applies to, ive heard talk of as long as you are in a commonwealth country it applies. in these days of the growing power of the corporations and the erosion of our civil liberties and sovrienty, this looks like a good way to insure our freedoms and our inalienable birth rights. it would be most appreciated if anyone can let me know if they know anything about this subject and how it applies in Scotland.

sites i have visited: TPUC.ORG WORLD FREEMAN ON THE LAND SOCIETY THINKFREE.CA SPIRITUALECONOMICSNOW.NET —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.40.102.8 (talk) 18:32, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

REMOVAL OF PREVIOUS POST

i put a post on here the other day entitled police---dna, i now see this post has been removed, i want to ask the cretaors of this site if they are for the enslavment of the scotish people or maybe they are advocates of the rape of young downsyndrome children, i would also like to ask why the lord advocate of scotland Elish Angiolini or grampian police have not invetigated the matter of hollie greig and brought it into the public arena. i would also like to ask why the lord advocate is useing law firm Levy & Mcrae to threaten those who are trying to bring this matter to the attention of the public. why was Robert Green the man who is fighting for justice for hollie arrested instead of helped by grampian police? is it because there is involvment of this hienous crime from the bottom up, and further? I hope at least some people that concider themselves to be part of the human race see this post before it is removed. it is only a matter of time before this matter is outed. this subject makes me sick to my stomache as i hope it does any one who has the chance to read it before being erased. i am only a normal member of the Scotish public that came across this subject by chance and could hardly believe what i was reading. if you would like more on this subject please please please visit http://www.davidicke.com/articles/child-abuse-mainmenu-74/30693-scottish-paedophile-ring-exposed or just google her name and please let as many other people as you can know. thank u for you're time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.40.28.103 (talk) 16:32, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Apologies if the removal of your earlier edit has caused you offence. This was because it did not appear to have pertinence to this talk page which "is for discussing the core work of the WikiProject, ie. our drive to improve the quality of our key Scotland-related articles, focussing on Wikipedia 1.0 and beyond" (see the top of the page). Can you clarify how your posts relate to the above please, i.e. the improvement of Scotland-related articles on Wikipedia? Mutt Lunker (talk) 17:04, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

APOLOGY ACCEPTED

On looking thruogh this site i thought that any topic that related to scotland was relevant (my apologies if this is not the case). I thought the toics that i brought were relevant to the people of scotland, again my apologies if this is not the case. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.40.52.100 (talk) 17:20, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Categories for discussion nomination of Category:Listed buildings in the Borders

Category:Listed buildings in the Borders, which you created, has been nominated for deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you.

Possible Creation of WikiProject Tayside and Fife

Hi! I have proposed the creation of WikiProject Tayside and Fife to improve the quality of all of the articles which fall into the scope of the project. I would hope that members of this WikiProject would like to indicate their interest in the project. If you would like to join please add your name on WikiProject Council/Proposals/Tayside and Fife. If the project gets a reasonable amount of interest I will create a draft of the WikiProject (after consultation with editors who are interested) in my userspace and then will create the WikiProject. Thank you. Andrewmc123 14:34, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Just so people know, Andrewmc123 has withdrawn this proposal after it was pointed out that it was the third Scotland-related WikiProject he had either created or proposed, but he'd never actually participated in this place. He's agreed that he needs to get a bit more experience before trying to start yet more Projects, it's not as though WP Scotland is hurting through overuse even if there may be an argument for a Scottish daughter of WP:WikiProject UK geography at some point in the future. Let's just see how we go for now.

I'd suggest that at the moment, we don't need to get too systematic about the geography articles, we just need to spend time getting a relatively small number up to a reasonable standard, ie WP:GA. I suggested to Andrewmc123, and I invite others thinking of a "regional" subproject, that he concentrate first on getting his home-town article up to GA, then some other local article, perhaps on history, to GA, then the Angus region and then perhaps go for a WP:Good topic of "Towns in Angus". After that you can start worrying about covering Tayside in some more systematic fashion, but it's very easy to identify just the main towns, and it's still a lot of work! At least the relatively new idea of a GT gives you something to aim for, although I'm not sure we really want the narrow overview article a GT requires, the main region article is more appropriate. I see that User:Kilnburn is doing something akin to a GT in Fife, but with the added target of an FA on Kirkcaldy, and it seems Deskford may be doing something a bit similar up in Aberdeen? Anyone else?

If people report back here about what they're doing, requesting peer reviews and the like before heading to GA, hopefully we can get this place buzzing a bit and achieve the aims of potential subprojects without all the bureaucracy they entail. I'd ask people to keep a particular eye on User:Andrewmc123 - he's enthusiastic, but just needs a bit of guidance from time to time. Monifieth is already looking pretty good - getting close to the stage where a pre-GA peer review would be useful, the WP Physics cheatsheet can be good for suggestions as long as you don't take it too literally.

One last thing, Andrewmc123 has moved WP River City to WP:WikiProject Scottish Television.Le Deluge (talk) 13:55, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Some good suggestions there. I wasn't seriously suggesting starting a project for Aberdeen/Aberdeenshire — I don't think there are enough of us for it to be viable and I only have time to tinker around the edges of the huge amount of work that needs to be done. Your idea of concentrating on the main towns makes sense. I think we often get sidetracked by the minor articles and certainly in Aberdeenshire many of the main town articles are in a very poor state. --Deskford (talk) 14:02, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

WikiProject Glasgow

And in other wikiproject news, Wikipedia:WikiProject Glasgow has been deleted under speedy deletion criterion G7: One author who has requested deletion or blanked the page. I assume interest in the project never took off? Anyway, I nominated the project template for deletion also, see discussion. Although, there are a dozen or so project categories also.... sigh. Thanks, Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 20:07, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Interesting... I'll hang fire before suggesting a WikiProject Aberdeen and Aberdeenshire then! --Deskford (talk) 20:14, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

I did not know there was a WP Glasgow let alone that it had been deleated. There was a proposal for a Greater Glasgow WP back in 2008 - [1] but I did not support it as Greater Glasgow seem to be a bit vauge: was it Strathclyde Region under a new name or just Glasgow with a few bits tacked on? Pyrotec (talk) 21:41, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm quite new to this but it seems to me that if there is a WikiProject Edinburgh, I don't see what's wrong with one for Glasgow. Still perhaps someone could clarify or at least give their views on what the eventual structure should look like. Presumably it's not desirable to have lots of small projects with only a few people working on them as they could go dormant. OTOH, Scotland is a large project that could obviously do with some subdivisions. Would it be an idea to basically divide Scotland into geographical chunks such as Islands, Highland, Strathclyde etc (for basic local stuff like towns, swimming pools and the like), and focus the Scotland project on things which are general to all - history, culture etc?Lord Spring Onion (talk) 15:44, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Lack of interest, unfortunately - Edinburgh attracted editors, Glasgow didn't. All those editors (like me...) who live in Glasgow should hang their heads in shame... TFOWR 15:49, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

I have wondered about a set of large scope task forces. The Highlands could certainly do with one if the mess that is most of the geography articles is ever to get anywhere. However, this might be very dependent on a few key individuals. I'm happy to help with setting up new article watchlists etc. for sub-projects if anyone is interested. See also below under "State of the Nation". Ben Mac Dui 08:28, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Pending changes: as others see us

I took a peek at the Pending changes trial. Anyone wanting to watch articles currently so protected that are relevant to this project may have to stick to:

and arguably:

A Hogwart's student

The full list is at Category:Wikipedia pending changes protected pages. Ben Mac Dui 17:10, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

AfD nomination of List of fictional Scots

List of fictional Scots, has been listed for deletion Please participate by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of fictional Scots. Thanks, Colonel Warden (talk) 05:50, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

State of the Nation

I am aware that there is a tendency for people who join a community to think that the "good old days" were the period shortly before they arrived, and, whilst that isn't my view about WP:Scotland, I do think things have changed, and I wonder why.

Relatively speaking, there does seem to be less of a sense of collective endeavour. Perhaps this is an inevitable and even welcome aspect of a maturing project. After all, in the early days setting up the project with its associated sub-pages and activities involved a degree of collaborative work that isn't necessary once they are largely in place.

Nonetheless, here are a few, perhaps subjective observations. The Scotland article and its talk page was the place that I "met" many Scottish editors. There was a genuine drive to improve the article but for various reasons this is no longer happening. Given the fractious nature of some of the dialogue this may not be such a bad thing. Ditto perhaps the remarkable red link Scotland in the Modern Era. Scotland-related AfDs don't seem to attract much attention from members of the project. The sub-projects have become the place where some dialogue takes place, but they tend to be the preserve of a small number of specialists. I don't know if anyone is paying attention to new articles - wherever the list has gone.

Wikipedia is huge and Scotland is a pretty big relative to the population. This isn't a social networking site and I am not trying to create interaction for its own sake but I am curious as to what others may think. Ben Mac Dui 08:48, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Speaking for myself, I am far less likely to contribute to articles which involve controversy over nit-picking details. So while I contributed to the Scotland article (among other Scottish topics) quite regularly at one time, I don't now. It gets wearing being accused of being a nationalist one day and a unionist the next just because you happen to have picked a word which someone else doesn't like. Even more so when the same word evokes both accusations. So unless its a Scottish topic which is obscure enough to avoid the attention of the POV warriors I steer clear. -- Derek Ross | Talk 15:24, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

I think a lot of this is down to the decreased energy and activity of User:Mais oui!. Back when I was starting he was the one co-ordinating everything and making everyone feel welcome. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 19:55, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Too true. I have also been distracted since the creation of the Islands sub-project. WP:SCOWNB only has two edits this year compared to about 30 in all of 2008. Wikipedia:Scottish Wikipedians' notice board/New articles is similar. We need to link up to User:AlexNewArtBot - although I have very little time for keeping up with them nation-wide. It might be worth splitting up a new article watch geographically or otherwise if there were enough volunteers. I guess it's a "situation vacant". Ben Mac Dui 08:57, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

In terms of new articles, I often spend time looking through User:AlexNewArtBot/ScotlandSearchResult, though I tend to skip the masses of footballers that arrive every day. There are usually one or two new articles requiring 'attention' of some sort. More generally, like Derek Ross, I steer clear of 'controversial' articles. Perhaps this is a failure to engage, which could lead to minority views prevailing. But frankly, I don't have the inclination to wade into such arguments; editing WP is a hobby not a chore after all. Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 13:06, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Scottish Battles

I know Scotland has been involved with a number of battles and wars with England over the years, and these are reflected in Wikipedia, but their must be many many substantial tribal and intra wars with Scotland. There doesn't seem to be any articles about this, or indeed any timeline based articles that contain it, and link it togther, like 'List of' articles. scope_creep 00:25, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

See Category:Scottish clan battles--Scott Mac 10:06, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Category help

I want to do a bit of work on places in North Ayrshire and I have restarted the list of stubs relating to NA - {NorthAyrshire-geo-stub}. However they are not appearing on the page and I think that is because when the page didn't exist they were all automatically sorted onto the West of Scotland stubs page. Is there some way of removing North Ayrshire as a category from that page so that I can maintain them separately? I tried to do it but it didn't work so need help from an expert! The SCOWNB suggests there should be 60+; I know there are quite a few already and I am adding more. Thanks. Lord Spring Onion (talk) 15:24, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

I am not a stub-meister, but if you go to Template:NorthAyrshire-geo-stub, edit the page and change the cat that should work fine. Let me know if it doesn't work. Ben Mac Dui 08:32, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Ben Mac, that seems to have worked. It appears that a page needs to be edited before it is added to the list, they are not automatically re-sorted. Lord Spring Onion (talk) 21:01, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Graham Spiers

On reading the article on Graham Spiers yesterday I noticed that it was tagged with {Citecheck}} and {{Content}} so had a wee look at the edit history to see what was in dispute. Looking at the material in contention it seemed to me to be notable, cited and to fairly represent the cited material. There was a later addition, actually while I was simultaneously commenting on the talk page, which I felt needed some tweaks to make it representative of its citation but was also worthy of inclusion.

The two users involved in the dispute appear to have crossed swords in other articles and I don't particularly wish to become involved in the merits or de-merits of their previous discussions. Suffice to say the material in contention, regarding writings by the article's subject on aspects of Scottish football and their wider cultural imapct, is in the kind of sphere where there may be hints at agendas motivating users edits. I don't feel I should have to decipher cryptic references on talk pages or base my judgement about an edit on the perceived previous "form" of a user, to the exclsuion of its own merits.

Would anyone care to take a look at the article, the material in contention and the discussion on the talk page? Mutt Lunker (talk) 12:20, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't see any major problem with the material and agree that seems a fair representation of the sources. Perhaps it would be helped if the article did not have 'Rangers' as a heading but 'Views on the Old Firm' or something similar.Lord Spring Onion (talk) 12:20, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Aye, fair enough. Mutt Lunker (talk) 07:11, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Maps of counties

Good news folks. Remember my talk back in May about Open STreet map locators? Well you'll all be pleased to know we now have quality locators of Scottish counties thanks to my good friend Nilfanion. I need your help though in installing them into articles on Scottish buildings and also I need some support to ensure that the UK place template is updated to display towns on county locators if there is consensus for it. I want to do the same with Wales but user:Plastikspork said it was very dfficult to parse. If so then it might be feaisble to recreate a Template:Infobox Scottish place and a Template:Infobox Welsh place with different programming. Other than that I propose a converison to a stabndard infobox settlement for Scotland and Wales so we can simply display towns and village on the maps.

Here are the following maps:

Please remember the naming system. You add map=Scotland Orkney etc to the infoboxe map name.What I need now is some help from guys like Ben and Jonathan etc to add infoboxes/maps to existing articles on Scottish landmarks castles/houses/hotels/churches/museums etc by county and gradually install them. Dr. Blofeld 13:10, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't think there's any need to make a Template:Infobox Scottish place as it should be possible to change things on Template:Infobox UK place. -- WOSlinker (talk) 13:33, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Just wondering why the Aberdeenshire looks different from all the other shire maps? It is using File:Location map Aberdeenshire Scotland.png rather than File:Aberdeenshire UK blank map.svg. -- WOSlinker (talk) 17:41, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Updated Infobox UK place for Clackmannanshire, Stirling & Falkirk. How does it look? -- WOSlinker (talk) 17:57, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Try Aberdeenshire now. It just had the old map that's all. Well I was judging by what Plastikspork said, I got the impression from him it would rquire hours of coding work, maybe he was just busy. Trust me I'd rather not have to make seperate infoboxes. If you can update UK place box so it displays county maps of Wales and Scotland like England this would be great. The good thinkg about the county maps is that they provide much better insight and also show where in the county it is. If you could update all of Scotland and Wales to show county maps like England this would be be highly desirable. Given that England uses county maps I can't see why anybody would complain. Stirling looks great!! Dr. Blofeld 18:09, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

All updated now for Scotland apart from the Edinburgh map which I wasn't sure about. May need a little discussion on that one first as I wasn't sure if the new one looked any better than Template:Location map Edinburgh. -- WOSlinker (talk) 18:37, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, Try Edinburgh now. Once again dated map was not replaced with the new one. Dr. Blofeld 19:44, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Once Nilfanion has updated the England maps with England county locator windows like Wales and Scotland they can probably replace the current maps which have too dark boundaries on them. Dr. Blofeld 19:46, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

I think this is a big improvement, although the template as applied to Scotland still has flaws in my view & I never use it myself. If there is anything specific you'd like assistance with, feel free to ask. Ben Mac Dui 13:21, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Ideally we should get some degree of consistency within the UK (if not globally) in the longer term, it is unseemly for the same country to be treated differently in different areas after all. Could you explain what your concern with the UK template is?--Nilf anion (talk) 11:09, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

The maps that I've uploaded so far are pretty minimal, but are important as building blocks. The immediate goal is to replace the blank maps in the template with exchange maps like File:Newport UK map roads and areas 3.svg (which will take a while to generate), and those currently used for the English counties. For human geography, roads and cities are more important than rivers and mountains - whilst the reverse is true for physical geography.

A blank political map is particularly useful for highlighting areas compared to more complex maps as the subject is not "lost" in the clutter. I've used the Shetland one to create 7 maps of Shetland highlighting some of the larger islands (Fair Isle, Fetlar, Foula, Mainland, Unst, Whalsay and Yell), these "replace" ones like File:Unst.PNG.

Due to the additional complexity I won't be uploading relief maps any time soon, but they more appropriate for physical geography - such as for mountains.--Nilf anion (talk) 11:09, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Unreferenced BLPs

Throughout 2010, many Wikipedia editors have worked hard to halve the number of unreferenced biographical articles (UBLPs) from more than 52,000 in January to under 26,000 now. The WikiProject Unreferenced Biographies of Living Persons has assisted in many ways, including helping to setup a bot, which runs daily, compiling lists of all articles that are in both Category:All unreferenced BLPs and have been tagged by a WikiProject. Note that the bot does NOT place unreferenced tags or assign articles to projects - this has been done by others previously - it just compiles a list.

Your Project's list can be found at Wikipedia:WikiProject Scotland/Unreferenced BLPs. Currently you have approximately 104 articles to be referenced. Other project lists can be found at Wikipedia:WikiProject Unreferenced Biographies of Living Persons/WikiProjects.

Your assistance in reviewing and referencing these articles is greatly appreciated. We've done a lot, but we still have a long way to go. If you have any questions, please don't hestitate to ask either at WT:URBLP or at my talk page. Thanks, The-Pope (talk) 12:50, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Deborah Leslie

Does anyone know much about the writer Deborah Leslie, currently up for deletion? I can't find much by way of independent sources, though I believe her books are widely used in schools and she is regarded as an advocate of the Doric dialect. This may, as claimed, be a vanity article — it seems to have been created by a single-purpose account — but I'm not sure. --Deskford (talk) 15:23, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Scotland articles have been selected for the Wikipedia 0.8 release

Version 0.8 is a collection of Wikipedia articles selected by the Wikipedia 1.0 team for offline release on USB key, DVD and mobile phone. Articles were selected based on their assessed importance and quality, then article versions (revisionIDs) were chosen for trustworthiness (freedom from vandalism) using an adaptation of the WikiTrust algorithm.

We would like to ask you to review the Scotland articles and revisionIDs we have chosen. Selected articles are marked with a diamond symbol (♦) to the right of each article, and this symbol links to the selected version of each article. If you believe we have included or excluded articles inappropriately, please contact us at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.8 with the details. You may wish to look at your WikiProject's articles with cleanup tags and try to improve any that need work; if you do, please give us the new revisionID at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.8. We would like to complete this consultation period by midnight UTC on Monday, October 11th.

We have greatly streamlined the process since the Version 0.7 release, so we aim to have the collection ready for distribution by the end of October, 2010. As a result, we are planning to distribute the collection much more widely, while continuing to work with groups such as One Laptop per Child and Wikipedia for Schools to extend the reach of Wikipedia worldwide. Please help us, with your WikiProject's feedback!

For the Wikipedia 1.0 editorial team, SelectionBot 23:35, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Pic of the Newstead Helmet

Hello. If there's anyone planning to be in the National Museum over the weekend, it would be great if we could get a pic of the Newstead Helmet. The article will probably get more eyeballs than usual with the Crosby Garrett Helmet helmet being in the news. Angus McLellan (Talk) 14:20, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Or this weekend, or any weekend... Also the Hunterston Brooch, St Ninian's Isle Treasure (penannular brooches etc), Migdale Hoard, and the two Pictish Norrie's Law Hoard silver plaques (File:Pictish symbol silver jewelry hoard norries law.JPG). Johnbod (talk) 14:40, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Sci-Fun

Hi, I was wondering if anybody could help me. I started trying to edit the Sci-Fun page a few weeks ago and have run into a few difficulties. Somebody has tagged it as reading like an advert, despite the fact that throughout I tried to state facts of what SCI-FUN does without ever offering praise or opinion. Somebody has also noted in the discussion page that I should not be writing the article as I work for SCI-FUN and this is against Wikipaedia's neutrality policy. I'm now in a dilema, in that I apparently can't edit the article because I'm not neutral, but if it does not get edited it may be marked for deletion.

Would anybody be able to help me out please? Could someone please read it to see if you think it reads like an advert, then either edit it if it does, or remove the tag if it doesn't.

Thanks in advance for your help —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.215.60.53 (talk) 08:24, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Villages of the Highlands

I've begun fleshing these out with some info and sources starting with letter A, some of them contain no information. I've proposed a remain of Category:Skye villages to Category:Villages in the Isle of Skye.♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:40, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

King James VI of Scotland

A discussion on a move that may be relevant to this group has commenced here. Relevant opinions would be welcome. Justin talk 19:11, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

FAR for Gunpowder Plot

I have nominated Gunpowder Plot for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here.) --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 16:42, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Scottish or British in biographies

Noting this IP edit, I had been going to revert it. It is similar to the issue that arises on the Recent Deaths page when a person is identified as Scottish or British. However the IP's position does seem to be in line with the WP:NAMES policy by stressing "the country of which the person is a citizen". My recollection is that there is a more detailed WP policy somewhere covering the constituent countries of the UK, but I can't recall where. Anyone point to that? AllyD (talk) 09:08, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Maybe WP:UKNATIONALS? Although that's only an essay and not a hard policy. Probably worth mentioning it in a WPS FAQ. Le Deluge (talk) 10:51, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. That was the one I was thinking of - a flexible and pragmatic position, depending on specifics. AllyD (talk) 11:08, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Whilst I remember, it's worth pointing out to other people the existence of the Geography Project's Wikipedia:British Isles Terminology task force (WP:BITERM, WP:BISLES, WP:BRITISHISLES for short) which is developing more general guidelines. Le Deluge (talk) 12:19, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

WikiProject cleanup listing

I have created together with Smallman12q a toolserver tool that shows a weekly-updated list of cleanup categories for WikiProjects, that can be used as a replacement for WolterBot and this WikiProject is among those that are already included (because it is a member of Category:WolterBot cleanup listing subscriptions). See the tool's wiki page, this project's listing in one big table or by categories and the index of WikiProjects. Svick (talk) 20:17, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

More Scottish contribution to Halloween

New user and was directed here to Scotland WikiProject. The Halloween page is being revamped and it needs input from Scottish users on discussion as its too North American centric right now. Getting more Scots input where Halloween was first celebrated, and guising, would give a balanced global overview of the holiday and its customs. Also some ambiguity over the term 'holiday'.ColinBurchill (talk) 23:05, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Hello, anyone able to assist?. The Scottish aspect of Halloween needs contributions.ColinBurchill (talk) 11:05, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Two-tier local elections

The election pages for the two-tier era of local government (1978-1994) have different title formats: Scottish local Regional elections, 1982 but Scottish District local elections, 1984. Is one preferable or would it be much easier to have them all at Scottish local elections, Year? Timrollpickering (talk) 22:59, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Scottish Unionist Party politicians

FYI: proposed renaming of Category:Scottish Unionist Party politicians and Category:Scottish Unionist Party MPs, to match head article Unionist Party (Scotland).

Discussion at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2010 December 16#Scottish_Unionist_Party. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 06:19, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Professor of Scottish History and Literature, Glasgow

The article Professor of Scottish History and Literature, Glasgow has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

A search for references found lots of mentions of the tittle in connection with people who are notable, but no indication that the tittle meets WP:N, fails WP:V as well

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. The speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. JeepdaySock (AKA, Jeepday) 15:32, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Glen and associated river articles

Though many already exist, tere are many articles that have not yet been written on various Scottish glens and Scottish rivers. In many cases, particularly in the Highlands, an article on Glen X would overlap considerably with one on River X - has there previously been discussion on this topic? I looked around but couldn't find any guidance that might have been put together by WikiProject Scotland members as to whether it was more desirable to have say an article on Strathexample or Glen Example and another on River Example or whether it might be best to have the river as a section within the larger strath/glen article, and employing redirects from River Example to Glen Example If the former then certainly the two articles would want to be wikilinked but with the latter ie one article, it would make for less duplication and a better all-round read. Any guidance/thoughts? - cheers Geopersona (talk) 10:11, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

In an organised world you might generally expect a strath/glen article first with a river redirect as you suggest and then a fork off from that if the river section became large, but I know of no policy/guideline or practice that covers this. The are examples of the opposite - Clyde Valley is a redirect to River Clyde for example. Ben Mac Dui 14:21, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

The overwhelming policy here should be WP:COMMONNAME rather than a less useful "consistency". In the more inhabited parts of the Lowlands, the strath may be the best known, and in certain instances historical events make it obvious which to choose (Glencoe) but I suspect that in general you're better off with River XXXX. Particularly in the Highlands where the most notable aspect may well be fishing - and rivers have the advantage that they are well defined and often have legal definitions, for their river boards; straths tend to be more "woolly". Another thing to consider are cases where one river, such as the Oykel, has both a strath and a glen along its course. Another argument is that imagine you were looking for a river Wiki in Wikistan - would you look for River Wiki, or would you look up the local name for different types of valley in order to look up Htarts Wiki and Nelg Wiki? WP:ENGVAR notwithstanding, it probably makes sense that in the absence of an overriding common name, Wiki articles on river systems use River XXXX. There is a dedicated WP:WikiProject Rivers who can advise further, and on infoboxes etc. I'd also suggest that some could be just redirects into their eponymous towns/villages, better to have one decent article than lots of little scratty ones. If you are planning to do something about the missing articles, I'd suggest you don't create all in one batch, but do it more slowly so that you can get each one to a standard where it can appear on WP:DYK - publicity is never a bad thing. Le Deluge (talk) 14:48, 18 December 2010 (UTC)