Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Gilbert and Sullivan/Opera categories

As of this moment — unless I have overlooked anything — all of the operas by Gilbert and/or Sullivan are categorized as described on the project page.

The guideline at Wikipedia:WikiProject Opera#Categories says that each opera should be categorized according to:

• its composer (if there's an "Operas by...." category for that composer)
• its language
• its genre
• the overall Category:Operas

Wikipedia doesn't have a single list of opera genres. There are three lists (Category:opera genres, Wikipedia:WikiProject Opera#Categories, Template:opera genres), and they are not identical. Not every opera is in a genre, and similar works may be categorized differently, as this is somewhat subjective. Many operas are difficult to classify. Nevertheless, we need to agree on a standard with respect to the operas that are part of this Project.

The proposal here settles upon "comic opera" for the operas of Gilbert and/or Sullivan (aside from Ivanhoe), simply because this is the term that Gilbert and Sullivan themselves, as well as most of their contemporaries, and most of the "G&S literature," used, and have continued to use, to describe most of their works. This is the descriptive term used in the topic sentences of most of the articles, as well.

This is not without controversy. Some people call these works operettas, and other people prefer Savoy operas. I have nothing against the word operetta, but it's simply not a term that Gilbert and Sullivan themselves ever used to describe their own work. Generally, their contemporaries didn't either. Indeed, Richard D'Oyly Carte formed the Comedy Opera Company as a reaction to, and a departure from, continental operetta. It would be ironic if their works are put into a category the creators themselves had rejected.

The label "Savoy Opera" is amply documented in the literature, but I am doubtful that it's a "genre." No other opera genre is named for a single theatre. And then, what do you do about works like The Mountebanks and His Excellency, which are clearly in the same style, but never appeared at the Savoy?

There are certainly some works for which the appellation "comic opera" might be considered a stretch, particularly Thespis, The Yeomen of the Guard, and The Beauty Stone. It does not seem worthwhile, however, to create a separate policy just for three works.

Please discuss, and make or suggest revisions. Marc Shepherd 18:03, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the system Marc used to categorize the operas. Note that on the Opera page, they have been discussing deleting the category for "fairy operas", which would affect Iolanthe, but I don't know if they have taken any steps to eliminate the category yet or are still discussing it. Is there something like "fairies in literature" instead? -- Ssilvers 18:26, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

There is a Category:Fictional fairies and sprites, to which Iolanthe and Fallen Fairies could be moved if this happens. Marc Shepherd 18:31, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Recent edits

In light of recent edits by Kevin Murray, I thought I would refresh this discussion with a bit of background. Some Wikipedians think that if a page goes a long time without being updated, it is no longer valid. This particular page stayed the way it was, because the matter was stable, and no one had anything new to say.

All this page is intended to do, is to factually describe the category system for the Gilbert/Sullivan operas. As far as I know, there are no current controversies or disputes around that system. The page does not, and is not meant to, advocate any change or viewpoint. It merely says, "This is what it is."

In the course of looking at what Kevin Murray had done, I realized that the categories had evolved a bit, without corresponding updates to this page, so I have revised it. I haven't checked every opera, so there might be some pages not in compliance with the system, but I'm fairly sure that any differences are errors, not content disputes. Obviously, if there are content disputes, they should go through the usual consensus process.

I took a quick look at Kevin Murray's edit history, and I can't see where he has edited any Gilbert/Sullivan opera, so I assume he has no quarrel with the category system in use. I therefore assume he must have misunderstood the status of this page. I would invite him to comment here if his agenda is broader than what I've said. Marc Shepherd 14:04, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the page, as updated by Marc, represents the state of the category system currently agreed to by the consensus of members of WP:G&S. I watch every page related to the G&S project, and I am not aware of any current disputes about categorization. Best regards, -- Ssilvers 15:27, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

• Marc, I have no interst in G&S. However, if you propose a guideline your proposal joins a list of proposed guidelines which attracts attention. There is a backlog of obsolete proposals which is being cleared. Per WP policy proposals which do not progress toward acceptance are rejected; acceptance as a guideline or policy requires broad consensus. This is really not a proposed guideline thus with the tag removed, I have on objection or further interest here. Good luck with your hard work. Cheers! --Kevin Murray 15:28, 13 October 2007 (UTC)