Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Biography/Core biographies/Archive 9

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Voting booth

This is the second half of the voting booth archive.

Alright, it looks like people just can't agree. So, here's my suggestion: we need to have a vote. I'm going to list all of the above people who have been nominated for either deletion or addition. THE ONLY WAY ANYONE WILL BE ADDED IS IF SOMEONE IS REMOVED. So even if, let's say Marie Curie has the most supporting votes, if no consensus can be reached on any of the deletion nominees, Curie won't be added.

  1. Voting will end one week from September 12, meaning you have until September 19 0:00 UTC (midnight) to get your votes in.
  2. We will only delete one person per addition, plus one extra to get to 200 from 201 if anyone wants to.

You don't have to give a reason for your vote, but if you do, keep it short. Sound good? Then let's get going. (Note: I have copied a few votes from the above discussions to jump start the process. Before you vote for something, make sure I didn't already vote for you — if you were placed incorrectly, please change your vote.) ♠ SG →Talk 21:32, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Additions

Le Corbusier

  1. Support Stonemad GB 18:55, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  2. Support Oppose ♠ SG →Talk 19:44, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  3. Oppose White Guard 22:31, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  4. Support Durova 16:24, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
  5. Support Hemmingsen 16:38, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
  6. Oppose The architect? Really? ◉ ghoti 04:23, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
  7. Oppose plange 19:20, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
  8. Oppose Kaldari 19:25, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Marie Curie

Succeeded
  1. Support Durova 04:42, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
  2. Support Kaldari 20:12, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
  3. Support Maurreen 13:59, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
  4. Support ♠ SG →Talk 21:32, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  5. Support kingboyk 22:56, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  6. Support plange 23:00, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  7. Support Kyle Rayner 23:33, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  8. Support ◉ ghoti 23:38, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  9. Support Hemmingsen 16:39, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Ramesses II

  1. Support White Guard 23:28, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
  2. Oppose ♠ SG →Talk 21:32, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  3. Support kingboyk 22:56, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  4. Oppose Kyle Rayner 23:33, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  5. Oppose ◉ ghoti 23:41, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  6. Support Lincher 03:16, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Armand Jean du Plessis, Cardinal Richelieu

  1. Support Stonemad GB 18:55, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  2. Oppose ♠ SG →Talk 19:44, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  3. Oppose White Guard 22:31, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  4. Oppose Kaldari 15:52, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
  5. Support ◉ ghoti 04:36, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
  6. Oppose plange 19:26, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


William Wilberforce

  1. Support Stonemad GB 18:55, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  2. Oppose ♠ SG →Talk 19:44, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  3. Oppose White Guard 22:31, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  4. Oppose ◉ ghoti 04:26, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
  5. Oppose plange 19:29, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

William Wordsworth

Succeeded
  1. Support Stonemad GB 18:55, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  2. Support ♠ SG →Talk 19:44, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  3. Support White Guard 22:31, 15 September 2006 (UTC) Though I prefer Coleridge
  4. Support john k 16:48, 17 September 2006 (UTC) (I like Coleridge better, but Wordsworth is more important.)
  5. Support Kaldari 19:24, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Émile Zola

  1. Support White Guard 23:28, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
  2. Oppose ♠ SG →Talk 21:32, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  3. Oppose kingboyk 22:52, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  4. Oppose Kyle Rayner 23:33, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  5. Oppose ◉ ghoti 23:38, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Deletions

Edmund Burke

  1. Delete Stonemad GB 18:55, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  2. Neutral ♠ SG →Talk 19:44, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  3. Keep White Guard 22:43, 15 September 2006 (UTC) -the granddaddy of conservative thought
  4. Delete Lincher 03:17, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
  5. Delete Catchpole 11:42, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Cleopatra VII of Egypt

  1. Keep ♠ SG →Talk 21:32, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  2. Delete White Guard 22:46, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  3. Keep kingboyk 22:59, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  4. Keep Kyle Rayner 23:33, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  5. Keep plange 19:01, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Frederick Douglass

  1. Delete Stonemad GB 18:55, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  2. Keep ♠ SG →Talk 19:44, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  3. Delete White Guard 22:43, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  4. Keep Kaldari 15:56, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
  5. Keep plange 19:03, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Indira Gandhi

Deleted
  1. Neutral. I don't know much about her, so I'll refrain from voting. ♠ SG →Talk 21:32, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  2. Delete Neither do I, but that's why democracy works. ◉ ghoti 21:45, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  3. Delete White Guard 22:46, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  4. Delete Jawaharlal Nehru or Mahatma Gandhi would be better. Durova 22:53, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
    Point of information-the Mahatma is already there! (under Revolutionaries and Activists) White Guard 23:04, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  5. Delete per Durova. kingboyk 22:59, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  6. Delete plange 23:01, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  7. Delete Kyle Rayner 23:33, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  8. Delete. It's rather ridiculous to have her and not Nehru. john k 22:12, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
  9. Delete Kaldari 15:56, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
  10. Delete Hemmingsen 16:42, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Che Guevara

  1. Keep ♠ SG →Talk 21:32, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  2. Delete White Guard 22:46, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  3. Keep kingboyk 22:59, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  4. Delete Kyle Rayner 23:33, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  5. Keep Kaldari 15:56, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
  6. Keep plange 19:03, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Hirohito

Deleted
  1. Delete Neutral. Well-known, but I'm not too sure about his influence. The hell with it, time to be bold. ♠ SG →Talk 21:32, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  2. Delete White Guard 22:46, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  3. Delete more of a person who presided over events than an actual leader. Durova 22:57, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  4. Neutral kingboyk 23:00, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  5. Delete Kyle Rayner 23:33, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  6. Delete. As Durova says. john k 22:12, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
  7. Delete Kaldari 15:56, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
  8. Delete plange 19:04, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Michael Jordan

  1. Delete Stonemad GB 18:55, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  2. Keep ♠ SG →Talk 19:44, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  3. Delete White Guard 22:43, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  4. Delete Kaldari 15:56, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
  5. Delete Hemmingsen 16:43, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
  6. Keep VegaDark 01:03, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
  7. Delete plange 19:05, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
  8. Delete kingboyk 19:30, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Søren Kierkegaard

  1. Keep ♠ SG →Talk 21:32, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  2. Delete kingboyk 23:00, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  3. Keep Kyle Rayner 23:33, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  4. Keep Hemmingsen 16:42, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
  5. Keep plange 19:06, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Bruce Lee

  1. Delete Stonemad GB 18:55, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  2. Keep ♠ SG →Talk 19:44, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  3. Delete White Guard 22:43, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  4. Delete Kaldari 15:56, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
  5. Delete Durova 16:25, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
  6. Delete Hemmingsen 16:44, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
  7. Keep VegaDark 01:03, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
  8. Keep changing my vote per VegaDark's arguments plange 19:07, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
  9. Keep Internationally famous and I suspect Asian peoples in general will be under-represented on the list. In the interests of fighting systemic bias I'll support keeping this one on the list. --kingboyk 19:33, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
  10. Keep Lincher 03:18, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Thomas Malthus

  1. Keep ♠ SG →Talk 21:32, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  2. Delete ◉ ghoti 21:39, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  3. Keep Kyle Rayner 23:33, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  4. Keep plange 19:08, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
  5. Delete Lincher 03:18, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Benito Mussolini

  1. Delete Stonemad GB 18:55, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  2. Keep ♠ SG →Talk 19:44, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  3. Keep White Guard 22:43, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  4. Keep Kaldari 15:56, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
  5. Keep plange 19:09, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Alfred Nobel

Deleted
  1. Delete Durova 02:50, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
  2. Delete john k 11:02, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
  3. Delete Maurreen 13:59, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
  4. Delete plange 14:23, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
  5. Delete ♠ SG →Talk 21:32, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  6. Delete ◉ ghoti 21:39, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  7. Delete kingboyk 22:59, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  8. Delete Kyle Rayner 23:33, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  9. Delete Kaldari 15:56, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Jackie Robinson

  1. Delete Stonemad GB 18:55, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  2. Keep ♠ SG →Talk 19:44, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  3. Delete White Guard 22:43, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  4. Keep unlike other sportsmen in the category, his influence spread outside of the sport-- broke racial barriers, etc. --plange 19:13, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
  5. Delete. Never heard of him - we don't "do" baseball over here. (Serious point - it's an international enyclopedia so the core bios ought to be internationally recognisable, as e.g. Ali is.) kingboyk 19:32, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Walter Scott

  1. Delete Durova 02:50, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
  2. Keep john k 11:02, 11 September 2006 (UTC) - er, I certainly never voted in such a menner. john k 22:12, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
  3. Delete ♠ SG →Talk 21:32, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  4. Delete ◉ ghoti 21:40, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  5. Delete kingboyk 23:00, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  6. Delete Kyle Rayner 23:33, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  7. Delete Catchpole 11:43, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Mother Teresa

  1. Keep ♠ SG →Talk 21:32, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  2. Delete White Guard 22:46, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  3. Delete kingboyk 22:59, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  4. Keep plange 23:02, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  5. Keep Kyle Rayner 23:33, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  6. Delete Hemmingsen 16:45, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Sun Tzu

  1. Delete Stonemad GB 18:55, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  2. Keep ♠ SG →Talk 19:44, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  3. Keep Hemmingsen 16:46, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
  4. Keep plange 19:15, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Andy Warhol

  1. Keep Maurreen 13:59, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
  2. Keep ♠ SG →Talk 21:32, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  3. Delete White Guard 22:46, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  4. Delete Probably ephemeral. Durova 22:54, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  5. Delete kingboyk 22:59, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  6. Delete Kyle Rayner 23:33, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  7. Keep Kaldari 15:56, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
  8. Keep Hemmingsen 16:47, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
  9. Delete --Stonemad GB 23:42, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
  10. Delete plange 19:15, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Walt Whitman

  1. Delete Stonemad GB 18:55, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  2. Delete ♠ SG →Talk 19:44, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  3. Delete Durova 02:53, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
  4. Keep. Possibly the greatest American poet. john k 16:50, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
  5. Keep plange 19:16, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

William I of England

  1. Delete Stonemad GB 18:55, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  2. Keep ♠ SG →Talk 19:44, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  3. Keep White Guard 22:43, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  4. Keep plange 19:00, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Frank Lloyd Wright

  1. Delete Stonemad GB 18:55, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  2. Keep ♠ SG →Talk 19:44, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  3. Keep Kaldari 15:52, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
  4. Keep Hemmingsen 16:48, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Columba

  1. Delete Kaldari 15:52, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Babe Ruth

  1. Delete plange 19:36, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
  2. Keep Lincher 03:19, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

referenced/FA

Rather than bolding articles that are most refernced can they instead be followed by (R)? Then we could also add (FA) after articles that are featured.-Ravedave (help name my baby) 00:25, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

OK on first, but on second we decided not to do that because hopefully these ratings will be changing, etc.. and so instead we're using this as our worklist --plange 22:17, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Voting booth? What's that?

Of what concern is the voting booth? Adraeus 11:50, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

People kept coming in and adding people at random, without even discussing it. Others nominated many additions and deletions. After this voting booth, I hope we can make the list 100% OFFICIAL, meaning no matter who else is nominated, the list will remain as-is (at least until after version 1.0). ♠ SG →Talk 19:17, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
I mean... what's the voting booth for? Add to what? Delete from what? I almost understood what was going on until I saw that there were a number of votes to delete Alfred Nobel and Andy Warhol which just strikes me as odd. Adraeus 20:27, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Well, just read the top of the project page and you'll understand what it's all about. ♠ SG →Talk 20:59, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Is it really Wikipedia's place to determine the top 200 biographies? After all, Wikimedia isn't Forbes. (WP:NOR) Adraeus 01:44, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
It is WikiProject Biography that is doing this to help come up with a target of articles to improve, hopefully for inclusion in WP:1.0 --plange 01:49, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

About athletes and actors

Alright, it looks like I'm the only person supporting Michael Jordan and Bruce Lee in the above voting booth. You guys have to understand that we can't limit the scope of the core biographies to writers and politicians!

Bruce Lee was not only a model athlete (see one inch punch), he was an innovator of the martial arts film genre (before him, it wasn't popular in the West), a teacher of martial arts, and creator of the Jeet Kune Do martial arts system.

Michael Jordan was on the cover of Sports Illustrated a record 49 times and SLAM Magazine 9 times, SI Sportsman of the Year in '91, named the greatest athlete of the 20th century by ESPN in '99 (second greatest by the Associated Press), highest per-season PPG in the NBA, NBA MVP five times and won two Olympic gold medals for basketball. Beyond sports, he is a successful businessman: his signature Air Jordan brand is hugely popular, he is part-owner of the Charlotte Bobcats.

So, I urge you to please reconsider. Just because they didn't run a country doesn't mean they don't deserve to be on the core biographies. ♠ SG →Talk 20:57, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I suppose I can understand your frustration, but a list of this kind will inevitably be skewered towards historically significant individuals, and sports people, in the main, do not tend to fall into that category. In considering contemporary, or near contemporary figures, I ask myself one question- Is he-or she-likely to be remembered a hundred years from now? As far as the two people you have mentioned are concerned the answer for me has to be no, they will not. White Guard 23:20, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

While both of these people were legendary in their own fields, the question on this page is whether they count among the 200 most important or influential people who ever lived. These are people who changed history in some profound way - people who made major breakthroughs in science, artists whose work has been esteemed for centuries, and leaders who changed the destinies of nations. Jordan was a great basketball player, probably the greatest who ever lived, but 500 years from now will the world be a different place because of him? Think of what the world would be if there had been no Jesus or Newton or Michelangelo. Durova 00:37, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I selected these 2 as my 2 "auto put in" when we discussed this earlier. I support both as well, IMO everyone in that section should be deleted before MJ is, he I'd say he is the greatest sportsperson of all time. VegaDark 01:02, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I think that fact that the inclusion of Bruce Lee and Michael Jordan among the 200 most important figures in the history of mankind is even being considered is strong evidence of North American bias. Basketball and kung-fu films are of interest to a tiny poportion of the world's population: try asking someone in Bangalore who Michael Jordan is. Or what Sports Illustrated is. Or who the Charlotte Bobcats are... Donald Bradman probably has a better case to be included than Michael Jordan (not that I'm actually advocating his inclusion) but has no chance simply because he is unknown in North America. At the moment six out of the seven sportsmen on the list are American: this is hardly representative of the other 95% of the planet! Similarly Frederick Douglass and Margaret Sanger are parochial figures who are of little relevance outside the USA.--Stonemad GB 10:34, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
This list was originally simply finding people who meet the criteria for "top" definition, and trying to include people who meet that criteria from as many fields as we could. How this turned in to finding the 200 "most important" people in the history of the world I do not know. Both Bruce Lee and Michael Jordan meet top criteria. I doubt a large chunk of the people on this list could be considered one of the 200 most "important" people in history. If you want to do that then you should probably delete everyone in the sports section. VegaDark 19:29, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately, IMHO, Lee and Jordan (and most actors and athletes) don't meet the definition of Top, the first line of which is: "Must have had a large impact outside of their main discipline, across several generations, and in the majority of the world." (emphasis mine) --plange 19:34, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
I nominated another sports person who I don't think meets Top - Babe Ruth - love the guy, and yes, best baseball player of all time, but what influence did he have outside of baseball? --plange 19:38, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Bruce Lee had a large impact on both the practice of martial arts and cinema. Michael Jordan had a large impact on both basketball and in the business world. VegaDark 19:41, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Good points... I changed mine for Bruce Lee, but still not convinced Jordan's influence in the business world had world-wide impact plange 19:43, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Oh come on Stonemad GB, I can't believe you just said that "basketball and kung-fu films are of interest to a tiny poportion of the world's population." Just read the "International basketball" section from the basketball article, particularly the last two paragraphs.
But then you had to go and say such blasphemy about kung-fu films. The majority of martial arts films are straight from China. Population: ~1,315,844,000. Percent of world: ~20%. And I'm not even including other nations where these films are popular (Thailand, USA, Canada, etc.). Tell me again that only a small portion of the world has been influenced by Bruce Lee. ♠ SG →Talk 21:03, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
I still don't think Bruce Lee has has much of an impact outside his main discipline - martial arts. Yes his films were very popular: but for the martial arts, not the acting, which is very wooden. Compare him with Muhammed Ali, who is a figure of awe and reverence to people who have no interest in boxing. I find it hard to imagine Bruce Lee will still be famous in a millenium.
Basketball is indeed played outside the US, but then kabbadi is played outside India - what does that prove? How can you say that a very talented 1990s basketball player deserves a place more than a talented 1960s basketball player, or a kabbadi player, or a cricketer? Michael Jordan has had an impact on one generation, only in his main discipline, and in a small minority of the world. He is not Top. And I repeat: a sports section where six out of seven are from the USA is severely lacking in credibility in a global encyclopedia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Stonemad GB (talk • contribs) 16:34, September 17, 2006.
Alright, I can agree on that point about Jordan. However, this whole "impact outside of their main influence" is getting irritating. Do you realize how many of the core biographies ONLY had an impact on politics, and nothing else? But yet, they are not being contested. Bruce Lee is an icon of both martial arts and film in general, and is a fixture of popular culture. By the way, how many of the people in our list will be famous in a millennium? Honestly. ♠ SG →Talk 22:10, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Rameses the Great-touché. White Guard 23:09, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

No important political leader has ever had an impact on politics and nothing else. Politics changes everything. Look at Napoleon - you could describe him as a purely political figure, but he changed world history, inspired great architecture, art and music, sold the Louisiana Purchase to the US, introduced the Napoleonic Code, turned Europe upside down, and led millions to their deaths. He will be remembered in a millennium. Can you really with a straight face say that Jordan and Lee are in the same league?
Looking at the list I would say that a third lived more than a millennium ago, so have already passed that test, another third will be remembered in a millennium, and the remaining third should be deleted.--Stonemad GB 23:12, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
I didn't say that none of them would be on the list. My point is that you used "in a millennium" as an argument, yet many of those who made the list this time around probably wouldn't in a millennium, as the world could be completely different. For example, if the United States no longer existed, would George Washington still be on the list? Will the The Beatles or Elvis still be remembered? His style being long gone by then, what about Frank Lloyd Wright? Who is Martin Luther King, Jr. outside of civil rights? See what I'm getting at? It is not our place to say "A and B won't be remembered in a millennium" — unless you've got a time machine, because that would be swell.
On another note, we need to clarify the criteria for inclusion on this list. Since top priority and core status are no longer the same, it looks like we're all getting confused (myself included). ♠ SG →Talk 00:13, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Sadly none of us has a time machine, but I think people who meet the Top test are likely to be remembered in a millennium. The Mongol Empire is long gone, but it hasn't done Genghis Khan's reputation much harm, and I think it is reasonable to speculate that even if the US isn't around in 1000 years, its emergence will still be seen as an important part of human history, and so Washington will still be remembered. The Beatles and Elvis have a good chance - genius is permanent: see Bach. We have already disagreed about Frank Lloyd Wright - who only built one major public building, which is a wonderful icon but a terrible art gallery - and I think it is too early to have the necessary perspective on Martin Luther King.
Top is just the right criteria for inclusion on this list. It is a very demanding set of criteria, and there will be constant pressure to water it down so that people can include their pet figures: but to do that would be to devalue the brand.--Stonemad GB 07:41, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

VOTING BOOTH OVER: Two nominees added, three deleted

We are now at 200 biographies, which was our original target. I have archived nominations where consensus had been found. The biographies which succeeded (in either being added or deleted) have been kept above, as well as the biographies which didn't have enough votes. Should we continue with voting? It looks like Michael Jordan will be removed next, but we have no one to replace him yet. ♠ SG →Talk 10:07, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Huh? You said, when starting the voting booth: "...you have until September 19 0:00 UTC (midnight) to get your votes in..." - by my estimation, you have closed the voting booth 2 hours too early. I was about to vote, but noticed that several entries were labelled "deleted" and "succeeded". My votes would have only been piling on, so not much difference, but please wait until the deadline you set next time! Unless by midnight on 19 September you meant the start of 19 September... Carcharoth 21:05, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Note that the Wikimedia Board Elections use a clearer way of expressing this:
"Voting:
  • Begins on Friday, 0:00 September 1, 2006 (UTC)
  • Ends on Thursday, 23:59 September 21, 2006 (UTC)"
That would be a better way to express vote closing deadlines in future. Carcharoth 21:10, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
And yet more: it was the use of the word midnight that confused me. Your deadline seemed to have been what I would call midnight of 18 September. To me, midnight on 19 September is at the end of September 19. Carcharoth 21:13, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
September 19 0:00 UTC is one hour before September 19 1:00 UTC. The term "midnight" may be unclear, but the numeric time is pretty specific.  ◉ ghoti 21:15, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes. I realise that now. My mistake entirely, but it is an easy mistake to make. Even without the "midnight" bit causing further confusion, it really is best to follow the bus and train timetable conventions and quote times a minute before or after midnight. My preference is for 'before'. Carcharoth 21:23, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Some new proposals

Inclusion:

Removals:

Errabee 04:16, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Great balls of fire! I think this will be the final round of nominations. If any of the additions here succeed, we'll either find a deletion from your deletion list or from the voting booth, depending on which one has more delete votes. ♠ SG →Talk 06:32, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Let's keep the list as it is. We already went through a large vote to assess additions and deletions. Durova 18:30, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Is this to go on endlessly? I though the matter had been decided? I will vote, but only if this has become an issue again. In the words of Pope Julius II to Michaelangelo 'When will you make an end?' White Guard 01:40, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Here's a proposal. Various of the projects are actively engaged in assessment to determine which articles are most important to them. This includes biographical articles. Maybe we could make a list of which biographical articles are of "top" importance to the various projects doing assessments and propose them for inclusion in the top list. It would probably be the only way for the most important or prominent people in some of the less-well-known or less-highly-regarded disciplines to get considered for inclusion. Badbilltucker 15:47, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
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