Humanities desk
< December 11	<< Nov \| December \| Jan >>	December 13 >

Welcome to the Wikipedia Humanities Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is a transcluded archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

December 12[edit]

Voluntary union of nations?[edit]

From what I could gather, the only legal document in human history that explicitly declares a political union to be voluntary whereby all members have the right to freely secede at any time was the Declaration of the Creation of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

When and where did the relatively widespread notion of the United Kingdom being a "voluntary union of nations" originate from? Why did so many people ever believe it, at least up until the result of the indyref2 court case last month? StellarHalo (talk) 05:46, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Voluntary in that the pre-existing Scottish parliament (in 1707) and Irish parliament (in 1801) agreed to the union -- though the Irish parliament apparently had to be fairly heavily bribed, and the representativeness of both assemblies could be questioned. I don't know what's particularly voluntary about how Wales was brought under English rule... AnonMoos (talk) 06:11, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There's also some question on how voluntary the Scottish union was; given owing to the failed Darien colony, they were massively in debt to England. They had basically mortgaged their country gambling on a colony in Panama, and when that evaporated, England called their note and the Acts of Union, 1707 was the result. Certainly not the only such factor, but still likely the proximate cause. The country of Scotland was basically the collateral for the loans to cover the Darien expedition, and when it failed, England collected on that collateral. --Jayron 32 13:25, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Also note that "voluntary" by itself does not imply a right to secession or revocation. One can give up a right voluntarily but permanently. --174.89.144.126 (talk) 14:29, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, you can voluntarily get married, but divorce is a bit trickier, especially if one party isn't keen. Alansplodge (talk) 21:46, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The 1995 Constitution of Ethiopia includes an article that states "1. Every Nation, Nationality and People in Ethiopia has an unconditional right to self- determination, including the right to secession" - which is pretty close to the USSR see https://www.constituteproject.org/constitution/Ethiopia_1994.pdf --Soman (talk) 14:11, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Do you or anyone else here happen to know if there is a way to search for a keyword in ALL the national constitutions that have ever existed all at once instead of having to go through each of them one by one? StellarHalo (talk) 00:16, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Many nations are unitary states and not federations or unions, per se. You can probably eliminate such countries as France or Portugal or Japan and the like from your list, as they aren't composed of semi-sovereign subnational states in the way the Russia, and German, and the US are. --Jayron 32 17:28, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Bossacoma Busquets, P. (2020). "Constitutional Right to Secede and Constitutional Reform". Morality and Legality of Secession. (WP:Library) has a list of 21 current and former constitutions providing some path to secession. fiveby(zero) 17:48, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Why was Sir Henry a Chamberlain?[edit]

Why was Sir Henry Chamberlain, natural son of Henry Fane, given the surname Chamberlain? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 11:16, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

He wasn’t named Fane to maintain the fiction that he was a “distant relative” instead of his father’s bastard. Not sure why “Chamberlain” was chosen. Blueboar (talk) 12:01, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is NOT a reliable source, but it gives his reported father as one John Chamberlain; who was married to his mother Hannah Chandler. Thus, Chamberlain would have been the last name of the man he was led to believe was his father, if that source is correct. This source, similarly unreliable, says that John Chamberlain and Hannah Chandler were "likely fictitious" though it doesn't say who perpetrated the fiction, perhaps Fane himself in order to cover up the affair and to hide the identity of the mistress, if it wasn't in fact Chandler.--Jayron 32 13:19, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Any hints from "Trusteeship in Chamberlain family settlement" executed by John Chamberlain and Henry Fane 1774? fiveby(zero) 15:21, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ooh, very well found! --Jayron 32 15:26, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, just used John Chamberlain's parish you found. ~~Apparently a 20 September christening, marriage by license 31 December[1] with Chamberlain maybe in some financial distress because his annuity was not being paid.~~ fiveby(zero) 16:59, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry was off in my reckoning with dates! 31 December 1772 marriage, 20 September 1773 christening. Was trying to guess at the price of an acceptable husband for Hannah, but the financial dealings of John, Henry and the Rev. Walter Wren Driffield are too puzzling for me. fiveby(zero) 20:26, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In any case, this firmly establishes that John Chamberlain and Hannah Chandler were real people. --Lambiam 08:19, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It's vexing not to know more of who they were. Here's "Will of Hannah Chamberlain otherwise Chamberlayne, Wife of Davies Street Oxford Road" and an 1809 insurance record for Hannah Chamberlain, 1 Davies Street Oxford street, widow. This is in or near Marylebone Parish. The will is very difficult to read with the watermark, but made it as far as "wife of John Chamberlain". Notes in Jayron's genealogy site for John mention Sir Henry used coat of arms of Chamberlayne family of Astley, Warwick and ultimately Sherborne, Oxford. There is also a record for Chamberlain v Agar 1814 plaintiff Hannah Chamberlain, defendants Sir Emanuel Felix Agar, Welbon Felix Agar and John Chamberlain, maybe connected. If so for many Years previous to 1804 the Plaintiff resided in the House of Welbore Ellis Agar, deceased, as Housekeeper[2] fiveby(zero) 13:46, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have the will without the watermark, but the hand is a hard one for me to read. DuncanHill (talk) 15:33, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The coat of arms comment is most likely wrong, closest resemblance to Chamberlain baronets i see is from Herefordshire and not Astley Castle or Shirburn Castle. fiveby(zero) 17:57, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]