Wikipedia:Peer review/Percy Grainger/archive2

Percy Grainger

Previous peer review

This peer review discussion has been closed.
Percy Grainger had an interesting and largely successful career as a composer, pianist and arranger of folk tunes. To the public he was "Mr Country Gardens", but there were darker sides. His pride in his (imagined) Nordic roots turned in time to outright racism; he had a penchant for spanking; suspicions of an incestuous relationship with his mother had tragic consequences. So the dashing good looks and cheerily extrovert image are only part of the story. Developing this article has been pretty much a one-person effort, and some fresh eyes would definitely help to identify repetitions, errors and omissions. All advice is welcome. Brianboulton (talk) 00:18, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Comments from Tim riley

After a momentary pause to wonder why you have put a picture of Harpo Marx at the head of the article I offer these few comments and suggestions.

• General
  • The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness: this is from The Guardian's style guide: "Avoid the 'prime minister Gordon Brown' syndrome: do not use constructions, beloved of the tabloids, such as 'prime minister Gordon Brown said'. …Where it is thought necessary to explain who someone is, write 'Bryan Robson, the Sheffield United manager, said' or 'the Sheffield United manager, Bryan Robson, said'." I so agree. I think "Biographer John Bird", "Band conductor Timothy Reynish" etc are too tabloid in tone for Wikipedia, but nobody else seems to agree. I merely mention it.

You and the Guardian are right. I have got into bad habits over this style. I have corrected Bird and Gillies; if you can spot any other instances of tabloidism, please notify. Brianboulton (talk) 14:13, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Tabloiderie: In the Emergent composer section: "London financier Sir Edgar Speyer" and "from folk music specialist Cecil Sharp"; in Traveller: "Historian David Pear" and "Although biographer John Bird"; in Legacy: "Band conductor Timothy Reynish"; and in Assessment: "Former Grainger Museum curator Brian Allison". Tim riley (talk) 07:25, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. These are all de-tabloided now. Brianboulton (talk) 18:41, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

• Lead
  • "Hometown" – the OED doesn't admit this without a hyphen.
• Family background
  • "whose daughter Helen would become the famous soprano" – does the subjunctive add anything here?
• Childhood
  • "supervised his music and literature studies, while other tutors taught in languages" – simultaneously? "and", rather than "while" perhaps, or maybe a semicolon. And "taught in" looks a bit odd.
  • "emigré" – I have always spelled this "émigré", but I see the OED admits (indeed, favours) the one-accent version; by all means ignore.
• Frankfurt
  • "Heine & Schumann" – I know we are enjoined to use links sparingly in quotations, but perhaps you might consider doing so here.
  • "aside from a brief though ardent love affair" – unexpected Americanism here: "apart from" would be the British equivalent.
  • "The harsh discipline … had resulted in a fascination" – How can Bird be so certain of the cause? Distinctly probable, no doubt, but to be stated sans phrase?
• Concert pianist
  • "he was introduced … to Queen Alexandra" – I believe one is presented rather than introduced to royalty.

    I bow to your obviously greater experience in such matters (how was the King, by the way?). I thought "presented" might be used for formal rather than social occasions, but I've gone along. Brianboulton (talk) 14:13, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

    Cheek! I have, as a matter of fact, been presented to the Sovereign (the current one), though that doesn't give me any authority to pronounce ex cathedra on the terminology. Tim riley (talk) 07:25, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

    Obviously I was referring to King Albert of the Belgians. How could you imagine otherwise? Brianboulton (talk) 18:41, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

• Emergent composer
  • "From 1906 Grainger began to use a phonograph" – either "From 1906 Grainger used" or "In 1906 Grainger began to use…"
  • "The two would remain" – another subjunctive that doesn't seem to add anything.
• Departure for America
  • "Sir Thomas" – he was still Mr Beecham in 1914.
  • "tune 'Country Dances'" – is this the same as Country Gardens?

    Yes indeed; an odd slip on my part. Brianboulton (talk) 14:13, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

• Traveller
  • "{sic}" – curly brackets? Usually square ones, I think.
• Innovator
  • "and would spend" – and spent?
• Second World War
  • "Pearl Harbour" – Harbor.
  • "calculates that he" – theoretically ambiguous – "Grainger" would nail the ambiguity.
• Music
  • "many settings of other composers' works" – refs 8 and 7 in wrong order here.
• Recordings
  • The Gramophone Company and HMV were one and the same: perhaps the blue link should come at the first mention?
  • "(1944–45) and 1957" – strange formatting" – either all in brackets or none, I'd say.
• References
  • Ref 103 has an unexpected > in it.

A most instructive and interesting article. I learned much. I have a dim memory from my teens of an arrangement by Grainger of "Camptown Races" which was performed on the television, with the choir running their fingers round the tops of drinking-glasses to make a weird moaning effect. A very strange man, our Percy. With the keys "c" and "v" next to each other on the keyboard you did nobly to refrain from misspelling his name.Tim riley (talk) 08:03, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

On the Harpo question, I see what you mean...Of the PD left-facing photographs, an alternative is File:Percy Grainger by Dupont (1915, 8, big, bw).jpg but would that be much of an improvement? On the pervy/Percy theme, I did take particular care here; thought I might slip in a deliberate typo to see if anyone noticed, but refrained. Your review comments are much appreciated, and I have adopted just about all of your suggestions. I've only commented, above, when it seemed necessary. Many thanks. Brianboulton (talk) 14:13, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Additions on "tabloidese" and "introduced/presented, above. To my eye, the Dupont 1915 image is more flattering. Better to be mistaken for Ivor Novello than Harpo Marx, I'd say. Tim riley (talk) 07:25, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

I will ponder the image question. I'm not at all sure that I would rather be mistaken for Novello (or Davy as his friends call him), than the estimable Arthur Adolph. It is a moot point. Brianboulton (talk) 18:59, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Fair enough. It comes to this: would you sooner hear Grainger's arrangement of "We'll Gather Lilacs" or "Lydia the Tattooed Lady"? Tim riley (talk) 20:28, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Comments from Sarastro1

This one is a little outside my usual scope, and so I apologise for any ham-fisted misunderstanding! A very interesting read about a very odd chap. And it may be my imagination, but he looks worryingly like Boris Johnson... There were a few parts I struggled to follow, although that may be my ignorance, and a few other points.

• "He also made many settings and adaptations of other composers' works": While this is probably completely correct in a musical sense, "made many settings" sounds a little odd to the non-specialist.

  "setting" is a normal word to describe what composers do. But in this context, "settings" and "adaptations" mean the same thing, so I have removed "settings". Brianboulton (talk) 15:24, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

• "forming important friendships": For him, for them, or for music in general?

  I'd say for music in general. I think "important" is a reasonable summary of the nature of his friendships with Delius and Grieg, which are further explored in the text. "Significant" would be an alternative word, but I used that in the previous sentence.Brianboulton (talk) 15:24, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

• "...who emigrated to Australia in 1877 where, in 1879, he...": The close proximity of the dates makes this a little awkward, but I'm not sure I can see a better way of doing it.
• "After a fund-raising benefit concert in Melbourne and a final recital in Adelaide..." Presumably the fund raising was for his benefit? Was the final recital a kind of farewell performance, or just a recital which happened to be his last one? I suppose I'm also wondering how well known he was at this point.
• In the Frankfurt section: the opening paragraph begins "In Frankfurt Rose", the final paragraph begins "In Frankfurt, Grainger..." Personally I prefer the use of the comma in this case so that no-one is looking for a lady called "Frankfurt Rose". Overall, there seems to be some minor inconsistency throughout over these commas, particularly after dates (i.e. In [year], Grainger...).

  I have resolved the issues in this section, though I'll check through the article for comma consistency such as you mention. Brianboulton (talk) 15:24, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

• "in a late autobiographical essay": Would a date be better here than "late"?
• "that he was working his "Marching Song of Democracy"": Is "working his" a technical term; to the casual reader it sounds like it should be "working on", but I may be displaying my artistic and grammatical ignorance here!
• "Grainger was receiving increasing recognition as a composer, as leading musicians..." Close repetition of "as". Also, Tony1 has, rightly or wrongly, hauled me over the coals for using "as", on the grounds that it be "causal or simultaneous".
• "However, his decision to leave England for America in early September 1914, after the outbreak of the First World War, damaged his reputation among his patriotically-minded British friends." This begs the question: was his visit planned well in advance, or was he actually leaving to escape the war?

  I have added a coiuple of sentences of explanation for the abrupt departure. Brianboulton (talk) 15:24, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

• "On 3 June 1918 he became a naturalised American citizen." Again, this prompts questions. Why did he wish to do so, and how was he able to after just under four years?

  No reasons given. I imagine that he had decided to settle there and that citiznship seemed the logical thing to seek. He was serving in the US army at he time, which I should think went down well on his citizenship application. Brianboulton (talk) 15:24, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

• "He also began to develop the technique of elastic scoring, "a radical experimentation with orchestral and chamber music blends"[62] which enabled works to be performed by any numbers of players and instrument types, from tiny groups of two or three up to full orchestral strength." This loses me a little, as I cannot see (even after following the link) how the same works could be easily performed by such different numbers of players. Could this be explained a little more here? (And elastic scoring makes me think of instruments connected by elastic bands!)

  I have simplified the explanation a little. I hope this helps. Brianboulton (talk) 15:24, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

• "Away from music, Grainger's interest in Nordic culture led him to develop a form of "Blue-eyed" English reflecting, he maintained, the "Nordic" character of the language before the Norman conquest.": What does "blue-eyed" mean in this instance? If the three examples in the following sentence are to show this way of speaking, I think it needs to be stressed how this manner of speech was Nordic, rather than just eccentric.

  I have reworded this paragraph, hopefully making things clearer. Brianboulton (talk) 15:24, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

• "...with which it had been programmed." Shared a programme may be better to prevent readers thinking he was using machines again.
• "To much of the public, Grainger is permanently associated with popular pieces such as "Country Gardens" and other light potboilers, though in his long career he created a varied body of works, many of great originality and ingenuity." This is quite POV-ish.

  You are right. Removed. Brianboulton (talk) 15:24, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

• " his colourful, "muscular" pianism was not widely imitated, and in time its increasing eccentricity often elicited hostile reviews." Could it be explained what was so eccentric about his playing? And I'm not too sure what "muscular" piano playing is like.

  Reworded. Brianboulton (talk) 15:24, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

• His racist views are alluded to, and the article says these were "expressed with increasing stridency", but this passes without further comment apart from the examples in note 5. Did his views escalate beyond this? Were these public comments, or privately expressed views. Perhaps a little more detail; the lead states he said this "privately" but the main body does not.

  His racial bigotry was, so far as I can tell, only overtly expressed privately. He did not address meetings, or join racist sects, or write inflammatory pamphlets—I have clarified this by redrafting the appropriate text. I don't want to excuse him, nor do I really want to add more detail; Pear's comment is, I think, sufficient condemnation. Brianboulton (talk) 15:24, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

• The only part I felt unable to keep up with as a non-musician was the "free music" part. I'm not quite sure what it is or was supposed to be, but that may be beyond the scope of this article. I think I followed it enough to know roughly what was going on.

  I'm not sure I can simplify things much further here, but if you could follow it roughly, that's something. I suppose people reading cricket articles often feel the same! Brianboulton (talk) 15:24, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

--Sarastro1 (talk) 22:54, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for these comments. I am working on them and will post my responses tomorrow (Sunday). Brianboulton (talk) 23:58, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

I have responded to all your comments. Where I have not written anything, that means I have simply followed your suggestion. I'm much happier with the article now, after the helpful observations of you & Tim. As to "Boris Johnson", Tim has said Grainger looks like Harpo Marx and/or Ivor Novello. Heaven help us. Brianboulton (talk) 15:24, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Comments from Wehwalt.

Another sparkling article about someone I've never heard of, and I consider myself stuffed with useless facts. It's a lengthy article so I'll be doing this piecemeal, I am afraid.

Lede

• "where he established himself, first as a society pianist and later" Is this comma really necessary?

• Stylistically, I'd say the comma is required. The sentence looks odd without it. Brianboulton (talk) 15:51, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

• "the remainder of his life in America," If it was only the United States, I would say so lest you be haunted by the ghost of Beckenbauer.
• "home town of Melbourne". This gives me pause. It was certainly his home town at one time, is it still properly described as such after he's shifted bases a few times? I would evade the issue and say "birthplace".

Early life

• " design of the new Princes Bridge" I do not have an ideal way of stating this phrase. I simply note that "new" is surely redundant.
• "whose daughter Helen later became the famous soprano Nellie Melba" I don't like this. There was no transformation, simply a change of name. I suggest a rephrase, perhaps saying that Helen gained prominence as an operatic soprano under the name Nellie Melba?
• "although he may have offered encouragement." Perhaps a "her" if appropriate after "offered"?
• "John thereafter" After the return to Oz or after Percy was raised? The text supports either interpretation. Similarly, earlier in the paragraph, there is a similar lack of clarity about "Rose soon learned". I assume after the marriage, but as the marriage occurred two paragraphs ago, I could be wrong!

Childhood

• "considered to be Melbourne's leading piano teacher." I think you need to limit this with a "at the time". As it stands, the man is the best piano teacher Melbourne has ever known.
• "Germany". Consider a pipe to German Empire.

Frankfurt

• "Rose became incapacitated" A little vague? For some reason that seems to demand an explanation. If sources are vague, consider "fell ill".

More later--Wehwalt (talk) 00:00, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Done to this point. Much thanks. Brianboulton (talk) 15:51, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

London years

• "at-homes". Is there some helpful link for those unfamiliar with the practices of the Edwardian gentry?
• "After one such appearance The Times critic recorded that Grainger's playing". Now I'm not saying this is wrong, but it is a bit awkward. Perhaps begin with "The Times critic recorded after one ..." ?
• " In October that year he toured Britain" I would write this with an "of" before "that", but it may be a quirk of Britlish I'm unfamiliar with.
• I find myself unenlightened in wondering how Grainger resisted Busoni. This is Grainger's article but the light seems exclusively on Busoni right here.

• I have reduced the Busoni-related focus. Basically, Busoni wanted not a pupil but an adoring disciple. Percy wasn't prepared to be that. Brianboulton (talk) 13:05, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

• "Before coming to London Grainger had composed numerous Kipling settings, and his first mature orchestral pieces." Is the comma necessary?

• Again, per earlier, I think this is a style choice. Brianboulton (talk) 13:05, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

• "more than 200 Edison cylinder recordings" I think you have to be a little more specific of what was on them. Obviously folk music, but is Grainger singing, or performing, or both?
• "had several Grieg pieces in his concert repertoire—including the piano concerto" I suspect you've thought about this, but I would change "the" to "his".

• But that would bring a close repetition of "his", the first referring to Grainger and the second to Grieg, so maybe leave well alone? Brianboulton (talk) 13:05, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

• "concert engagements in Britain and Europe," The rest of the world persists in viewing Britain as part of Europe. Suggest adding "continental".
• "at the Queen's Hall, in March 1912, London, five of Grainger's works " There may be an uncompleted thought here.
• "On 21 May 1912 he " The last male person to be a subject of a sentence is Gardiner. Suggest mild rephrase.

Maturity

• "and in April 1921 broke new ground by performing in a cinema, New York's Capitol Theatre." Broke new ground for who? This is a bit unclear.
• "pianism" I suggest the reader might wish a little help with this, a link perhaps or context.

Inter war years

• Is there anything to be said about Grainger's reception on return to England?

• Nothing in the sources. I would guess that he had been forgiven, partly because he had served in the US army, then through sympathy over his mother's suicide, but this is speculation. Brianboulton (talk) 13:05, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

• "these included works" perhaps better "including works"
• I appreciate your careful work with the racial matters, but right now, before looking at the footnote and being somewhat enlightened, the way you have it a casual American reader like myself concluded you were talking about races as in black, white, rather than anti-semitic views. Perhaps some slight rephrase to clue the reader in more accurately?

• I have rephrased, and drawn attention to the antisemitic aspect of Grainger's racism. This is a difficult issue; I don't want to defend Grainger in any way, but he did not publicly parade his obnoxious views; their expression is limited to private letters to a fairly small circle of friends. For that reason I have not expanded on examples, and have left Pear's judgement to speak for itself. Brianboulton (talk) 13:05, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

• Was Bird aware of this letter, or did it subsequently come to light?

• Bird does not comment on the Feb 39 letter (which was to Quilter, not Gardiner; I have corrected), though he acknowledges this unsavoury side of Grainger's character.

Later career

• "army and air force". Perhaps capitalize and link to the appropriate branches of service.
• It might be worth mentioning if Grainger went to any pains to avoid his previous Nordic views, which were certainly not in demand just then.

• It is hard to say when or if he moderated his views. There is certainly no retraction on record. In his published letters, there are few if any antisemitic references after the early 1940s; this may be due to Grainger's increased sensitivity, or to the selections of letters chosen by Gillies and Pear or publication. Posibly both, I don't know. Brianboulton (talk) 13:05, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

• "St Peter". In the American practice, rendered "St. Peter", I believe. I take it a ref for this sentence is forthcoming?

Done to here Brianboulton (talk) 13:09, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Resuming

Music

• "Grainger's works fall into two categories: original compositions and folk music arrangements. He also wrote many settings of other composers' works." This passage gave me a headache (a virtual one, happily). I am unable to figure out if the settings of other composers' works is intended as the second category, part of the second, or outside of both.

• I've attempted to clarify; let me know if your headache persists. Brianboulton (talk) 18:26, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

• "regard the Norwegian as a paragon of Nordic beauty and greatness" The man? his music? both?

• The source says that Grainger "held up Grieg as an uncontested model of 'Nordic beauty', hence Nordic greatness", so I reckon he was referring to the man, odd though this seems. The context is an assertion that Nordic composers, since the thirteenth century, had "out-soared all others in the purity, grandeur, complexity and compassionate emotionality of their musical speech". Typical Grainger extravagant overstatement. Brianboulton (talk) 18:26, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Legacy

• "had been scornfully rejected." By whom?
• " 7 Cromwell Place" if this is an address (I think it is, I checked Google maps and there is such an address), I would precede with "located at".

Assessment

• "However, the early enthusiasm " You have consecutive "However" sentences.

Recordings

• "recorded for, Decca" I was not certain whether this comma was a stray.

That's all I've got. Excellent job as usual Brian.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:32, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks again for the comments, all addressed now.. Grainger is certainly a difficult person to like, and after my recent immersions in Nixon, Tom Driberg and Delius, I'm definitely going to do someone nice next. Brianboulton (talk) 18:26, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

• Quick comment It may be a good idea to use {{infobox musician}} (but I know some people hate infoboxes). Adabow (talk · contribs) 07:07, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

  Wikipedia:WikiProject Composers has requested no infoboxes with composer articles. This convention has been maintained for all composer biographies, including the number which have been accepted as featured articles. There is no good reason to break the convention here. Brianboulton (talk) 09:01, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Comment: It seems to me that this review is now complete, so I shall close it later today. Brianboulton (talk) 08:42, 20 May 2011 (UTC)