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Marie Lloyd[edit]

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. Marie Lloyd was often referred to as "Queen of the Music Hall" thanks to her success as singer, comedienne and musical theatre actress during the late Victorian era. With a repartee littered with innuendo and sauce, Lloyd enjoyed a long and prosperous career, despite her sad and turbulent private life. I have been working on this for the last month and the article may be a tad bloated, but its easier to cut text than create so I have done all the hard stuff now which saves time. The article has received a Rothorpe copy edit which has been invaluable. Obviously, GA would be sought after this with an FAC on the horizon. I would be glad of any comments and thoughts. Thanks, CassiantoTalk 16:35, 6 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Tim riley

This is going to take two or three goes. First batch, down to the end of Early career and first marriage:

  • General
    • Lloyd's surname appears too often for the prose to flow smoothly. In general, wherever the meaning is plain I'd change the name for "she" or "her": e.g. "On 3 February 1886, Lloyd appeared at the prestigious Seabright Music Hall in Hackney.[23] After a few weeks, Lloyd began performing songs…" I'd change both "Lloyd"s to "she". Later: I've had a shot at this here but see what you think, and revert anything you don't like.
      • Yes I see what you mean. Wow, there really was a lot of Lloyds wasn't there! I changed one to "his wife" when speaking of Hurley. -- CassiantoTalk 17:51, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lead
    • I'd lose the inverted commas round "straightlaced".
  • Family background and early life
    • "The Wood family were "respectable and hard working"" – not sure having the phase as a direct quote adds anything.
    • "John sought her unpaid employment" – perhaps "secured" rather than just sought
    • "at The Eagle tavern" – I'd lose this second "tavern" in two sentences; also see comment below about capitalising "The"
      • Second tavern deleted. Would "tavern" be classed as part of the definite article? -- CassiantoTalk 15:39, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Early career and first marriage
    • Second para – and throughout article – you should, I think, decide whether to capitalise the definite article in the titles of theatres etc – "the Oxford" or "The Star" – and standardise on one of the two forms. I prefer lower case, but consistency is the main thing.
      • Opt for lower case. I think I caught them all. -- CassiantoTalk 15:39, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • "The Boy in the Gallery" – comes up twice in the para. I'd lose the first mention.
      • Done. I have moved the credit to Nelly Power to the song's first mention. -- CassiantoTalk 15:39, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Her reputation as a "blue" performer did not impress her East End audiences which her West End counterparts enjoyed so much." – not sure what you mean here. The East Enders disliked it or were blasé about it? And their not her counterparts, surely?
      • I have reworded this now. I was surprised at reading this, I thought that this would have been the other way round. -- CassiantoTalk 15:39, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • "MaQueen-Pope" – spelling; and wl to W. J. MacQueen-Pope, and probably add "the theatre historian" or some such.
      • Added theatre historian and mentioned he was her biographer. Spelling (typo) also fixed. -- CassiantoTalk 15:39, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That's all for now. Sunday lunch beckons. More anon. I'm enjoying this. Tim riley (talk) 11:30, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Batch two: to the end of Relationship with Bernard Dillon. I have tinkered with the prose while going through these sections; revert any changes you don't like, naturally.

  • Life at Drury Lane
    • "she played the principal boy.[n 11] " – I'm confused. Unless I'm going completely dotty (a contingency not to be discounted) your footnote explicitly contradicts your text. As far as I can tell from the text her roles at the Lane were female, and Macqueen-Pope was right.
      • Your sanity is all present and correct, its mine that is questionable. Fixed. -- CassiantoTalk 16:36, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • "according to Pope" – as he was double-barrelled I think you really have to refer to him as Macqueen-Pope
  • Debut in America
    • "A few weeks later, Lloyd began a secret affair" – not a successful secret, evidently, as Courtenay was suing for divorce within a matter of months.
      • No, it wasn't successful, everybody knew about her going over the side, but nobody spoke of it. Gillies called it "music halls best kept secret". I have deleted the ambiguity. -- CassiantoTalk 16:36, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Risqué reputation and transatlantic tours
    • "She then rendered the drawing-room ballad "Come into the Garden Maud" in such an obscene way that the committee were shocked into silence" – perhaps it would make the contrast still stronger to mention that the words of Maud are by Tennyson.
  • Music hall strikes of 1907
    • "Within a few days … within days" – repetition
    • "the increase in Matinée performances" – I think this is the first we hear of the increase; I'd be inclined to say "an increased number of matinée performances". Lower case, perhaps?
    • "The war ended later the same year with a favourable resolution being directed towards that of the performers" – perhaps "with a resolution broadly favourable to the performers"?
    • "the Gaiety Theatre in Scotland" – a big place, Scotland. Better mention Dundee, I think, even though it's mentioned in the quote that follows.
      • Swapped. I have also linked it (I'm not sure if I have linked already, but if I have I will delete). -- CassiantoTalk 16:36, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relationship with Bernard Dillon
    • "She was eager to become a success in the country" – I had rather gathered from the earlier text that her success in the US was already well established. Tim riley (talk) 14:01, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • I have clarified this to say that she wanted to equal the American success of her sister Alice, not actually be a success in America. Does this read better? -- CassiantoTalk 16:36, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am, by the way, becoming increasingly anxious at not, so far, finding any reference to "She Sits Among the Cabbages and Peas". I have always understood this was one of her numbers, to the fury of the authorities. If you shatter my illusions about this I shall not lightly forgive you. Tim riley (talk) 15:52, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ha, no I have heard of that one too. She had literally hundreds of songs, all of which were well received, so its knowing what to mention and what not to mention. I will consult Gillies (the most comprehensive of the sources I have), and report back with this. -- CassiantoTalk 16:40, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Can you believe Gillies gives no mention of this number! I found this, but cannot see a page number. I will see what else I can find. -- CassiantoTalk 18:07, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

My comment about Cabbages and Peas (or Leeks, if you prefer) was prompted by the thought, "What does the interested, lightly-informed reader know about ML?" I should say that of her songs "My Old Man" is the best known, with these, in no order, as runners-up:

  • Oh, Mr Porter
  • The Boy I Love
  • One of the Ruins that Cromwell Knocked About a Bit
  • Cabbages and Peas
  • A Little of What You Fancy

I think these all deserve at least a passing mention in an FA on the lady. Tim riley (talk) 19:07, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I will read up and give them a mention. Thanks Tim. -- CassiantoTalk 14:21, 8 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by SchroCat[edit]

I used to walk past the house on Graham Road when I was a student, so I'm extremely glad to see you've given her your usual high-quality treatment. I made a couple of minor edits: feel free to revert if I've introduced errors or problems. First sweep comments below, more to follow. As always, feel free to ignore or disagree with the many occasions when I'm wrong:

  • Do you have a citation for "Marie rhymes with "starry";"?
    • In a word no. This was added by Rothorpe, but neither of us knew how to do the correct IPA. Does anybody know the correct format, or how to make the correct (and more desired) IPA? -- CassiantoTalk 09:21, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • IPA is a pain to work out (and I think it is of slightly limited use, as you need to be able to "read" it to understand it). Is there nothing that says Marie should sound like starry, as opposed to marry or maree? There's a few ways to correctly pronounce the name, so it would be good to get it right, if at all possible. - SchroCat (talk) 16:42, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • Well, unless I'm missing something, I think I have done the whole IPA thing. Maaree (I think) is the French pronunciation, so I have chosen to use this (unless I have to go with English). As for a citation, I'm not sure I need one. this, this, this, and this are a few picked at random that don't. I will, however, search for one as it won't hurt. -- CassiantoTalk 18:49, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Should hard working be hard-working?
  • Is it really the Seabright Music Hall in Hackney, but the Sebright Music Hall in Bethnal Green? (I'm presuming the BG one was near the modern day Sebright Arms, a pub I used to know all-to-well!)
    • The source says "The Sebright opened in 1865 as a music room annexed to the Sebright Arms Public House in Hill Street (nowadays Coate Street) Hackney." I suspect it is not Hackney as it has a Bethnal Green postcode. Your presumption is correct. The MH adjoined the pub near to Garner Street. Now changed. -- CassiantoTalk 08:38, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The labor dispute": overly American—and not just the spelling! Perhaps "strike", or even just "The dispute"
    • I don't know how that slipped in there, changed. -- CassiantoTalk 08:38, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • a critic for the The Courier noted
  • lineup -> line-up
  • "I'd Like To Live In Paris All the Time" should probably carry different capitalisation
  • First World War and final years section, two disambig links are there, one for Hackney (in the blue plaque pic) and one for Crystal Palace.
  • There are three dead footnotes at the moment:
    • FN13: "Biography of Marie Lloyd" (info) [vam.ac.uk], Victoria and Albert Museum website, accessed 30 December 2012
      • Fixed.
    • FN183: "The Death of Marie Lloyd" (info) [guardian.co.uk], The Guardian (Archive), 22 October 1922
    • External link: Article on Marie Lloyd at East End London (info) [eastlondonhistory.com]
      • I have replaced this. I know these are a bit threadbare at the moment. I will go through and add some more later. Thanks for the great review thus far. -- CassiantoTalk 09:17, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'll give it a full run-through later, but it will be similar small typos, rather than anything major and structural for you to worry about. Excellent article, and extremely close to FA standard. - SchroCat (talk) 05:52, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Part two from SchroCat.

As usual, these are largely suggestions, as you may have reason for doing things in a particular way which are entirely justifiable. My very minor points are:

Lead

  • "The Boy I Love Is Up in the Gallery": I'm not sure the caps are right here (or in the corresponding article) and I note that you have in the second para of the lead "The Boy I Love is Up in the Gallery".
    • The source capitalised "is" so it slipped through like that. I have changed this to lower case (and moved the corresponding article while I was at it). -- CassiantoTalk 13:50, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is "straightlaced" one word, or hyphenated? (I'm not pointing out an error, but I've always hyphenated and would like to know if I've been doing it wrong all these years!)
    • This should be hyphenated and now is. Later on, I talk of Chant who MacQueen-Pope describes as being "straightlaced", without the hyphen. Do you think I should [sic] that or leave it? -- CassiantoTalk 13:50, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd be tempted to split the third para in two at "Offstage, Lloyd had a turbulent…", with the fourth dealing with her private life separately. Your call if you don't like the idea!

Family background

  • said 'Bless you my child, do what you like.'"[15] You could think about: you like'."[15] just to ease the plethora of diacritic marks.

Early career

  • "reputation as a "blue" performer". Do you mean risqué or was she a daring innovator of modern theatre performers, or even a popular beat combo? A piped link may be useful, but I'm not sure about the best page: innuendo or double entendre are possibilities, although they do not really convey the full meaning. Perhaps profane or ribaldry? Not sure ...!
    • I deliberated about this for an entire day a few weeks ago. I really have nothing to link it to. I feel profane is wrong as she never used profanities during her act (a career ending move back in those days), but have really been torn between "innuendo", "double entendre" and "ribaldry". I have opted to link to "rude song" within "ribaldry" as I think it is the closest to the subject matter. Does anybody else have any suggestions? -- CassiantoTalk 13:50, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are a series of song titles in sixth para which need to have the capitalisation sorted out.
    • This capitalisation malarkey is haunting me a bit. There were copied letter by letter from the sources, so presumed correct. Yes, done (but may need checking as its not a strong point). -- CassiantoTalk 13:50, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • I know - I was going cross-eyed trying to work them out too! The problem is that the sources may use a different style format to Wiki's one. I've made a couple of other changes, but need to look at it tomorrow with fresh eyes. - SchroCat (talk) 16:42, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Risqué reputation

  • teach a girl at school'". Again, the sentence could avoid the collection of diacritic marks with: teach a girl at school'."

Music hall strikes

  • the Variety Artistes Federation: link the first, not the second mention
    • Jiggled about a bit. I also removed a bit of repetition. -- CassiantoTalk 13:50, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Scandal in America

  • Again you need to sort out the caps in the song titles (second para)
    • Again, these came from the sources. Would you mind checking them here? -- CassiantoTalk 13:50, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

First World War

  • Again, a few wrong caps in the song titles
  • "In 1915, Dillon was conscripted into the army, but he quickly deserted by jumping off a moving train in France. He spent a long time on leave and stayed home in Golders Green, drinking to excess". I think you need to add a little more here: it looks like he jumped from a train and took leave. If he deserted, he was absent without leave. Was he caught and then took leave, or did he spend time at home, while a deserter?
    • All addressed. It was his intention to desert but he never actually achieved it. The source doesn't say, but I suspect the leave was granted because of the injuries (if any) he sustained during the escape. I have used a bit of poetic licence so the leave is not misinterpreted as leave per se. -- CassiantoTalk 13:50, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Footnotes

All very minor indeed, and this is certainly close to an FAC. Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 10:55, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As always, your review has been invaluable, and I'm certainly looking forward to our time on T-T. -- CassiantoTalk 16:04, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Blofeld[edit]

I'll tackle this gradually over a few days.
No problem, I'm glad of your interest :-)
  • Intro - "topped the bill". Headlined?
"spectacular" - a peacock word.
  • but they were. I think dumbing them down by not emphasising just how "spectacular" they actually were, would lead one to think that they were "just another pantomime", which they were not. Drury Lane was considered back then to be the holy grail of the London theatrical world. --CassiantoTalk 20:14, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
" Lloyd was in frequent dispute with Britain's the strict theatre censorship". Superfluous the?
"Humpty Dumpty; or, The Yellow Dwarf and the Fair One, Little Bo Peep; or, Little Red Riding Hood and Hop O’ My Thumb, and Robinson Crusoe." No wiki links?
  • These differed from today's Little Red Riding Hood and Humpy Dumpty inasmuch that they were harlequinade versions. They were also loosely based around the official pantomimes, with a large share of the script being totally re-written on the request of Gus Harris. I think linking them to the conventional pantomime would be inaccurate here. -- CassiantoTalk 20:12, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
De link First World War.
Link Alhambra Theatre
Early career.
  • Grecian music hall, Hoxton hall or something else? Not quite sure what hall you are referring to.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 21:11, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Hmm, could you be a bit more specific. I'm sure its me, but I cannot see where you mean. -- CassiantoTalk 22:02, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Collins music hall, Falstaff Music Hall, Oxford Hall, Sebright Music Hall, Britannia theatre, Oxford music hall. Inconsistency in capitalization. Links? I'll create them if they're red linked. Oxford music hall in risque section also not in capitals as Oxford Hall was originally. Also further down link the Crown Theatre in Peckham. Let me know which are missing articles and I'll fill them.

Brianboulton comments[edit]

After so much attention, there's probably not much left for me, but I will try and manage a few suggestions. I have not checked the earlier reviews, so some of these points may have already have been made:

  • In the lead: "Between 1891 and 1893, she was recruited by the impresario Augustus Harris to appear in the spectacular Theatre Royal, Drury Lane Christmas pantomimes including Humpty Dumpty; or, The Yellow Dwarf and the Fair One, Little Bo Peep; or, Little Red Riding Hood and Hop O’ My Thumb, and Robinson Crusoe." This sentence is difficult to read, because of the multiple commas and "ands" arising in the list of titles. Is it really necessary to have the full titles of these works in the lead? The following would be much easier on the ear: "Between 1891 and 1893, she was recruited by the impresario Augustus Harris to appear in the spectacular Theatre Royal, Drury Lane Christmas pantomimes; these included Humpty Dumpty, Little Bo Peep and Robinson Crusoe."
    • For pantomimes, what comes after the "or" is as important as what comes before, and gives an idea of what happens in the "transformation" period. I would be happy to shorten it if the title is repeated. --CassiantoTalk 00:26, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • My point was really whether the full, awkwardly-punctuated names are required in the lead, which is normally a brief summary. The full names are fine in the main text. I'll leave it to you. Brianboulton (talk) 22:06, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • Ah, OK. No I think we can scrap the full titles within the lead based on that. -- CassiantoTalk 22:30, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also in the lead, needing slight attention: "By the mid-1890s, Lloyd was in frequent dispute with Britain's the strict theatre censorship..."
  • Still in the lead: "she enthusiastically supported recruitment..." I'd drop the adjective.
  • In family background: being "respectable and hard-working" does not guarantee financial comfort, so I question "as such".
  • Is a 1900 photograph appropriate for this section, which is concerned with Marie's life up to about 1885?
    • It is more there for illustrative purposes as I speak about the Wood family. I think moving it down to the 1900s for chronological reasons would be a double edged sword inasmuch that there is no supporting text. Would I be better to move it regardless, or shall I delete. It's a shame, because its a nice photo. --CassiantoTalk 00:19, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • I don't believe that images are required to have supporting text. Keep the omage, place it wherever you think it serves the article best. Brianboulton (talk) 22:06, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Early career: "at age 15" is an American construction; I think the article should use the British idiom. Incidentally, the first sentence is rather awkwardly arranged. The word "including" is one of at least 13 usages in the article, which is somewaht repetitive.
    • I have had a go at reworking this. See what you think. --CassiantoTalk 00:19, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • I have tweaked the sentence a bit more (up to you whether you keep it). I'm still concerned about the word "including", for which you have an apparent stylistic fondness. I suggest you go through the article and see if you can reword a few of them. Brianboulton (talk) 22:06, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • It is true, I have used the word far to often (and is not the easiest to find a replacement for). I have trimmed a few. -- CassiantoTalk 23:30, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Lloyd established her new name on 22 June 1885..." - do you mean 1885? The context and chronology suggests 1886.
  • "whom she was subsequently managed by" → "by whom she was subsequently managed"
  • "Lloyd followed the comedian Tom Leamore on stage and earned a wage of 15 shillings per week." Non sequitur.
  • Measuringworth: Such comparisons are highly questionable, since economic circumstances have changed out of all recognition in the last 130 years or so. My advice, if these present values are used, is to confine them to footnotes rather than show them in the main text, and include in the note that these values are "according to Measuringworth". And I would avoid spurious accuracy, as in £8077.
    • I have deleted them as their inclusion does make for bumpy prose. I only included them as I was once asked at FAC. --CassiantoTalk 00:19, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Yes, some reviewers used to ask for them at FAC, but no longer. I can't actually remember when the matter last came up. Brianboulton (talk) 22:06, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In May 1888, Lloyd and her husband had a daughter named Marie..." Daughters don't come with names. And "had a daughter" is inelegant. I would rephrase this along the lines: "In May 1888, Lloyd gave birth to a daughter, Marie..."
  • Drury Lane and success; In general, it's a bad idea to force your readers to use links, as I had to do to find out what the "Old Mo" was.
  • "Improvisational" does not need a link; it's not a technical or unusual term. Ditto chamber pot.
  • Why did the Flossie performance end her career as an actress? Was her performance so terrible?

That's about the halfway point. My comments on the rest will follow. Brianboulton (talk) 22:30, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A couple more sections

  • Debut in America: Why this section title? The section is very largely about other things.
    • Deleted. In your opinion, does this now make this section too long? --CassiantoTalk 00:22, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The ""greater acclaim" quote should be attributed rather than merely cited. Same, later in the section, with the "roar of applause" quote.
  • "entitled" them? Do you mean "retitled"?
  • "At Christmas..." Give year, for clarity
  • "initiating a divorce" → "initiating divorce proceedings"
  • Risqué reputation: "By 1895, the content of Lloyd's songs were often receiving criticism from "straightlaced" theatre critics and strict, influential feminists." Too much judgement here. I would neutralise: "By 1895, the content of Lloyd's songs were often receiving criticism from certaintheatre critics and also from feminists." (I honestly don't know what you mean by "strict feminists")
  • "The writer and feminist Laura Ormiston Chant, who was a member of the Social Purity Alliance, successfully campaigned to have large screens put up around the promenade at the Hackney Empire[91] and managed to persuade Hackney council to ban the consumption of alcohol in auditoriums, forcing patrons out of the music halls and into the bars." I am struggling to understand what the latter part of this rather long sentence has to do with the firts part; there seems to be two unrelated campaigns here: against Lloyd for her lewdness, and against alcohol consumption.
  • "Chant also protested Lloyd's lyrics as "racy"..." British English doesn't really use the transitive verb form in this way. Maybe "protested that", or "protested against".
  • It should be "cabbages and leeks"; that was the double entendre.
  • "She then rendered Alfred Tennyson's drawing-room ballad "Come into the Garden Maud" in such an obscene way that the committee were shocked into silence". This does not accord with what the cited source says: "The story goes that she sang ‘Johnny Jones’, a child's-eye view of the facts of life, in tones of angelic purity; she then performed ‘Come into the garden, Maud’, larded with leers and nudges, provocatively nibbling her pearls to point up each innuendo, finally arguing ‘it's all in the mind’." The source prefaces its account with "The story goes that...", indicating that it might or might not be true; the word "obscene", pivotal in your account, does not appear in the source, nor is the committee shocked into silence.
    • I have restructured this. Does this read better? -- CassiantoTalk 14:00, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am unhappy with your depiction of Laura Ormiston Chant. You should read the paragraph in Frances Grey's DNB article which indicates that in many respects, Chant and Lloyd were on the same side. Chant was not the bigot depicted here. She was involved in numerous causes, including that of women's suffrage, and it is quite false to say that she "accepted defeat and emigrated to America", whatever Farson says. She certainly visited America, in 1893, but did not settle there.
    • Yes, Farson did indeed say this. I have removed this claim now about her "emigration". I will open up the DNB on Grey and reference that later as I am still yet to cover the fact "Chant and Lloyd were allies". -- CassiantoTalk 14:00, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Farson was a colourful and not always reliable character (rather fond of the drink, too) - be a lttle careful with him, if what he says is not confirmed by other sources. I am unconvinced by: "Chant sailed to America a few months before, but was in denial at the rumour that she was leaving to avoid defeat when the licence was due for renewal." Chant visited Chicago in 1893, as a delegate of the Central National Society (a women's suffrage organisation) to the World's Congress of Representative Women, where she addressed the assembly on several matters. She was very warmly received, and honoured by several Chicago Women's Clubs. There is no record (apart from Farson's) that she went back to America "in denial", etc, in 1896. I recommend that you don't use this sentence, particularly in a manner that asserts it as bald fact. Possibly: "According to Farson (though unconfirmed elsewhere), rather than acknowledge defeat Chant absented herself in America for a while".
I have cross referenced "Chant sailed to America a few months before, but was in denial at the rumour that she was leaving to avoid defeat when the licence was due for renewal" with Gillies and Pope and neither back up Farson. A quick google search for an online RS also offers no support. Do you think the whole "Chant leaves for America" claim is redundant, especially now as there is some scepticism? -- CassiantoTalk 22:38, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • The paragraph in the ONDB article about Lloyd and Chant reads thus:
"The episode [concerning 'Come into the garden, Maud'] masks the real tragedy—that Lloyd and Chant were constructed by the press of their time as natural enemies, and have continued to be read as such. In fact they often shared a political position. If Lloyd asserted female desire, Chant was as concerned with the right to resist marital rape. Her concern for censorship arose out of the Contagious Diseases Act, which sought to stop the spread of venereal infection by allowing the police to subject any woman on the streets to forcible examination; she fought to prevent men excited by the sensual patter of the halls gaining access to prostitutes and infecting their wives. Chant frequently spoke out against domestic violence: in the same year as the battle of the promenade Lloyd was threatened by her estranged husband, Percy Courtenay. Chant was preoccupied by the low wages of music-hall performers: in 1907 Lloyd supported a strike by the Variety Artistes' Federation against an attempt by Stoll-Moss to create a monopoly and limit the freedom of performers; she was appalled by contractual loopholes permitting managements to extract unpaid matinées from exhausted performers, gave generously to the strike fund, and picketed theatres using non-union labour." Brianboulton (talk) 21:18, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Funnily enough, I read up on him today. I did compare the Farson refs with Gillies (who is far more thorough IMO) and deleted what didn't match up. I will go through the rest of his references over the next few days. I will only use his reference if it is there, and backed up with another source. I will delete if it is a rogue claim based on your advice. I will pick out bits from DNB now. -- CassiantoTalk 21:37, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I have tweaked your revised text slightly, and it's probably OK now. In the footnote have altered Chant's obsession for censorship...", which sounds judgemental, to "Chant's pressure for censorship", which I think is neautral and fair. Brianboulton (talk) 10:22, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...who appeared on the same bill as Little Maudie Courtenay" Ambiguous; do you mean that she appeared, as "Little Maudie Courtenay", on the same bill as her mother?
  • "randlord" needs an explanation, not just a link. I thought it was a typo for "landlord".
  • Why give the composer of "Oh Mr Porter" at this stage, rather than at the earlier mention of the song?
  • "Lloyd returned to London two months later." - two months later than what?
  • "The chorus, "not for the very best man that ever got into a pair of trousers", "tickled the audience immensely". I would capitalise the "Not..." at the beginning of your quote, and I would find a way of avoiding two adjacent quotes. Whose phrase is "tickled the audience immensely"?
  • "...evident that she was not so demure as she looked, for she confided to her auditors that she 'knew a lot about those tricky little things they don't teach a girl at school'." Whose quotation?
  • "Lloyd returned to London, moved to Hampstead with Hurley,[103] and appeared in pantomime..." Too much for one sentence. Cover her return to London and her move to Hampstead. The (fresh sentence" deal with her pantomime in Peckham.
    • Done.

More to follow, when I'll try and conclude. Brianboulton (talk) 23:34, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Continuing

1900s
  • Joe Elvin overlinked (see previous line)
    • Unlinked.
  • What is meant by "after piece"? Does it mean the "main piece"?
    • Yes it does, thanks.
  • "The same year, Lloyd openly took up residence with Hurley in Southampton Row, London despite Lloyd's divorce to Courtenay not being confirmed by the receipt of the final decree." Too wordy. I suggest: "The same year, although her divorce was not yet finalised, Lloyd went to live with Hurley in Southampton Row, London".
    • Changed.
  • I am surprised that there is apparently no WP article for the London Tivoli Music Hall. You should redlink the first mention of the theatre, as this is clearly a potential article. You might consider creating a stub.
  • Sudden reappearance of MacQueen-Pope's initials.
Music hall strikes of 1907
Relationship with Bernard Dillon
  • "Lloyd enjoyed continual success every time she performed in North America" - the word "continual" is unnecessary
  • "he ended up in debt with trainers" → "he ended up in debt to trainers." And you might consider "racehorse trainers" to avoid confusion with running shoes.
Later years
  • The first sentence looks a little detached. I'd integrate it thus: "In 1912 a new show, the Royal Command Performance, showcased the best of music hall's talent at the Palace Theatre in London..." etc
  • I'm not sure that Butt's role is worth mentioning.
  • Suggest "advertisement" rather than "advert", for the sake of encyclopedic neutrality
  • I think you should mention the extent to which Stoll's venture was successful without Lloyd

Too tired to do more - will finish tomorrow. Brianboulton (talk) 22:56, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Here are my final pickings

Scandal in America
  • "taking to the country" sounds very odd. I'd make that "attempting to take into the country"
  • You say: "the tour was a success" and a couple of lines later, "The performances were an overall success", which is essentially repeating the same thing. I'd vary it to something like: "The songs were popular, partly due..."
  • "gave a selfish response ..." That's POV. You must neutralise the statement. For example, "However, she was reported in The Morning Telegraph as saying:..." etc
First World War and final years
  • "but she received no recognition for doing either". I would say "no official recognition", and "for her work" rather than "doing either".
  • "Although very popular with American soldiers..." This is chronologically confusing. We are in 1916; America did not enter the war until April 1917, and American troops were not seen in any numbers in Britain until months after that, probably into 1918.
  • "As the war raged on..." That smacks of tabloid journalism, rather than encyclopedic prose.
  • I'm surprised to read that Dillon's failed desertion attempt led to a lengthy period of recuperative leave, and apparently no repercussions. Deserters were normally shot in the First World War; is this the hand of Farson?
    • Haha, yes it was. I picked up on this during a read through earlier and added the excuse that he had to look after family, but forgot to delete this Farce....sorry, Farson claim. It's gone now. -- CassiantoTalk 23:24, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In July 1919, she..." New paragraph requires name, not pronoun.
    • Done
  • "Royal Variety Performance": is this what you earlier called "The Royal Command Performance"?
    • Yes, the "Command" performance was the very first show, with "Variety" being used from there on in. --CassiantoTalk 23:24, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "She toured Cardiff in 1919 and in 1920, she was earning £11,000 a year. I think you probably mean "She toured Cardiff in 1919, and in 1920 she was earning £11,000 a year." Note the slight revision of punctuation.
  • I don't think "fraudulently" is the right word in this context. I think you mean she couldn't "differentiate between those in need and those who simply exploited her kindness".
Decline and death
  • "Lloyd collapsed in her dressing room after a performance singing "The Cosmopolitan Girl" at the Gateshead Empire in Cardiff" Delete the words "a performance"
  • "Her doctor diagnosed her with exhaustion" - delete "her with"
  • MacQueen Pope gets a handle again!

That's all. I have had to review this quite quickly, so I can't guarantee I've picked up every little prose glitch or other minor problem, though I hope my comments have been helpful. Before taking the article further, I recommend you read it slowly and carefully, line by line, to satisfy yourself that all is well. Otherwise,a fine effort in expanding the article and providing such a comprehensive portrait. Brianboulton (talk) 22:22, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"After so much attention, there's probably not much left for me..." Not 'arf! Brian, your review has been brilliant. Your comments have been spot on and very educational. I will work on these over the next couple of days, and I will give it a proof read when I am done. I won't be rushing to FAC (I have a GAN already lined up to maximise further improvement), so It won't be rushed. Once again, thank you for your time. -- CassiantoTalk 22:38, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Image Comments by GermanJoe[edit]

All OK. Detailed image info provided (where available) and with acceptable PD-claims (tweaked some), three comments:

  • File:1830_Eagle_Tavern.jpg - The Victoria and Albert Museum has copyright notices on such images (see source). However, Wikimedia has rejected similar claims in the past, as copyright on such old images cannot be claimed for simple 1:1 reproductions. If you have a similar image from a different source, i would advise to replace it. Otherwise, don't bother - just noting this little bit of background info, incase someone brings it up later.
  • For non-US works, make sure you have a copyright tag for the original country and the US (fixed 1 image).
  • Avoid using PD-US (due to its vagueness it should not even be a valid PD-tag to begin with). PD-1923 or PD-old-100 are much more specific, and special tags for "copyright not renewed" or "never registered" exist aswell. Fixed a few.GermanJoe (talk) 08:02, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That's great, thank you. Just two questions: Does the Edward Albee image need the PD-EU-Annon tag seeing as it was published in America. The author is unknown I might add. Also, are there anymore after your fixes that remain outstanding?

-- CassiantoTalk 17:06, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If the US-publication was the first publication world-wide and in no other countries simultaneously, the US counts as "country of origin" and you could remove the EU-tag. I believe, i got all the rest of the minor tweaks done. GermanJoe (talk) 19:15, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The publishers of the book were based in America, so I think the book would have originated there. --CassiantoTalk 21:01, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding File:Eagle_Tavern_in_1841.jpg: If you want to use it, no problem. But check out this British Museum link [1]. It has much better biographical data (the engraver is a John Shury, additional data at the website). Bowyer was apparently the publisher. GermanJoe (talk) 23:00, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
All added with correct licensing (I think). Thanks Joe. -- CassiantoTalk 23:35, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments (2) by GermanJoe[edit]

  • "Farson, pp. 42–43, as quoted in Farson, p. 43" - Farson quoting Farson?
  • refs 3 and 13 - check usage of ODNB-template (for both?), also when using this template, you don't have to spell out name and publisher.
  • in Drury Lane "She returned at Christmas to a "roar of applause" as "the audience soon found [that] the popular little lady had lost none of the brightness and chic that are her principal passports to public appreciation"" - quotes need in-text attribution (or rephrase shortish phrases in your own words). Please check throughout the article, several opinion statements are quoted without attribution (maybe the press or the audience, but the reader can't tell).
    • Cool, I have gone through and attributed all. I think I caught them all. --CassiantoTalk 20:59, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • in Relationship "Despite [the cracks appearing] in her marriage, Lloyd went on an American tour with Hurley in 1908." - avoid idiomatic phrases.

That's really a great article with very detailed, enjoyable content. You should tighten the quoting a bit and make sure of proper attribution. The prose is excellent (for a German, what do i know), but sometimes a bit too colorful in its descriptions - but maybe that's fitting for the topic after all. GermanJoe (talk) 12:30, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm really glad you liked it. I will get onto these later as I am away from home currently. Your input, as always, has been invaluable Joe. -- CassiantoTalk 17:07, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Two more:

  • Are refs 47 and 79 (the online sources) considered WP:RS for this kind of topic? I wasn't able to pin down their exact creator and editorial background. Incidentally they are used within two bundles of cites, so maybe you can loose them completely?
    • Its behind you.com has been in existence for 11 years and is maintained by Simon Curtis, a stage actor with over 17 years experience in acting, some of it in pantomime. Talking about "It's-behind-you.com", TheFreeLibrary says: "Another resource you may wish to try is an excellent website devoted to the development of pantomime and its roots in music-hall tradition. Click on www.its-behind-you.com." See this, this, and this. Other praise includes:

this,and this, but perhaps most reliable of all is this, which is taken from Exeter University Library and is widely used in studies there. The Victoria and Albert museum is one of London's leading museums of art and design, and promotes knowledge, understanding and enjoyment of the designed world. Its chief director is Martin Roth, and is organised by the following people. The museum has been in existence since 1857, and was renamed "Victoria and Albert Museum" in 1899. Hope this helps. -- CassiantoTalk 09:07, 13 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Guess, i was just a bit concerned, as the websites look somewhat unstructured at first view and lack background details about their creators (or i missed it). But with your detailed additional info both should be fine within the article. GermanJoe (talk) 08:39, 14 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hey no, that's what it's all about. I knew I would get asked about "it's-behind-you", but I checked it thoroughly before using it. Admittedly, the IBY website does look a bit cheap, so I don't blame you for your questioning. -- CassiantoTalk 10:14, 14 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • A "fun" task for a rainy day, but you should decide, how you want publisher names wiki-linked in the references section. Currently some are linked, some not. It's not relevant for anything below FA, but it would most certainly come up there. GermanJoe (talk) 08:10, 13 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, not sure I see what you mean here. Are talking about publications (I.e, newspapers) --CassiantoTalk 13:27, 13 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've gone ahead and removed the few existing links to newspaper names and publishers, as that's a lot easier than linking all or linking some on a vague criteria. Other editors have different views about that, so please feel free to change that to your preference. GermanJoe (talk) 08:30, 14 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Fantastic, cheers Joe. -- CassiantoTalk 10:14, 14 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have (I think) addressed everybody's so I think it would be OK to close the review now. I would like to thank everybody so much for taking the time to invest in this peer review and I hope your concerns have been met with satisfactory responses. -- CassiantoTalk 00:27, 15 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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