Wikipedia:Peer review/Benjamin Britten/archive1

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Benjamin Britten[edit]

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This peer review discussion has been closed.
Britten's centenary is approaching – 22 November this year. To this end Sjones23 started the ball rolling with the aim of getting the article to FA in time for the front page on the day. For one reason and another most of the current prose is mine, but I envisage a fair bit more work on the article during and after peer review. It would be very helpful indeed to have colleagues' comments on the article as it now stands: the prose, the proportions, the balance of technical/accessible in the music section, the handling of the sensitive "Controversy" sections, and indeed anything else. – Tim riley (talk) 16:13, 1 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: I have just added an "Influences" subsection to the "Music" part of the article (Tim might like to check that out) and will be doing further work on the music section over the next few days, so it might be an idea if, at least initially, reviewers concentrate on the biographical sections of the article. Brianboulton (talk) 16:32, 1 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from SchroCat[edit]

I've made a few minor corrections as I've gone along: please feel free to revert if you prefer the original. As to the rest, just a couple of minor points:

Lowestoft
  • "The school had no musical tradition, and Britten continued to study the piano with Ethel Astle, and from the age of ten he took viola lessons from a friend of Ethel Britten's, Audrey Alston, who had been a professional player before her marriage.[19]" This all seems a little long, as well as "and Britten continued … and from the age" as connectors.
Operas & Orchestral works
  • There seems to be a hint of overlinking of the titles here. I only note the fact, as I don't know if it was intentional or not.n
    • We (that is the WP classical music mafia) seem to have an unwritten understanding that in a big Life and Works article like this it is helpful to the reader for blue links to start again pretty much from scratch in the Works section. I'm in the process of checking whether within that protocol I've duplicated blue links within either section. Tim riley (talk) 13:12, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Refs
  • I see you largely use the full number in a range (i.e. 100–120, rather than 100-20), but you've dipped out of that practice on fn 166: Whittall, pp. 273–74
Dates

Same sort of point generally on dates:

  • Early professional life : "In the three years 1935–37". This format is used only once, whereas:
  • America 1939–1942; Chamber and instrumental works: "solo cello (1964–1971)" and note 1—his sibling's dates—all use the full date format. It is this version that appears to be more common.

That's all for the moment: I'll take another read through later. - SchroCat (talk) 10:46, 2 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

All your suggestions now acted on. Thank you, SchroCat! Tim riley (talk) 12:47, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt[edit]

With an eye on the time in the UK, in case you are minded to work tonight, I offer my first tranche of comments, on the biographical section. The rest will follow shortly, I hope tonight. Excellent work as always.

Lede
  • "20th-century British classical music, and wrote music in many genres. " Music/music. Suggest deleting the second one, i.e. "and wrote in many genres"
    • Good. Will do.
  • "His musical studies were at the Royal College of Music in London, " Ditto. Perhaps "He studied at the …"
    • Ditto.
Life and career
  • "early 20th century the distinctions " consider (weak suggestion) "early 20th century, distinctions …"
  • I point out that the piano at age 7 and viola at age 10 are mentioned in consecutive paragraphs, though with a heading between them
  • "12 songs mostly for unison singing," Can the songs/singing be avoided, or at least separated by the title?
  • "of the unit's small group of regular contributors" Possible confusion with the GPO unit, though I imagine what is meant is the BBC. After all, Night Mail is about the post office
  • The second sentence of the America section has multiple semicolons. Commas are, I imagine, meant.
  • "where Britten had moved from Snape earlier in the year" You mention Snape only as Britten's country home, not as his actual residence, unless I am missing a nuance, being a Yank.
  • "in the Parish Church" is this also properly capitalized? Presumably it is actually named St. Something-or-other-by-the-puddle?
  • "interest that was fostered by a tour with Pears in 1957" Perhaps add "there" after "tour".
  • "opened by the Queen at the opening" ahem
  • "The Queen once again" I'm not sure the word "once" adds anything.
  • If you ask me, the War Requiem is far superior to the Cathedral, having experienced both. But then, I suspect I'm far from alone on that one.
  • You might want to tweak the prose, there is a slight implication that the people killed in the air-raid died in the cathedral, which of course was not so.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:35, 3 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I have just read Brian's comment above and will hold off on the remainder for a few days. My time may be limited over the next few days, I do not know yet (it is a holiday weekend in the States) so it might not be until sometime the middle of next week that I return.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:41, 3 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I have heard it rumored that today is a holiday in the US. A very proper honoring of Brian B's birthday, meseems. Shall enjoy dealing with your and SchroCat's comments over the next few days. Tim riley (talk) 16:10, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
All these points are spot-on, and I've acted on every one. Thank you, Wehwalt. Tim riley (talk) 12:47, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Ssilvers[edit]

  • The serial comma is not used consistently. You need to decide whether or not you are going to use it and then do so consistently. I recommend not using it, because I think it tends to add clutter and it is generally not needed for clarity. Where there is ambiguity in a complex list, a comma can still be added for clarity. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:15, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the "Lowestoft" section, you have: As well as scrupulous attention to the technical craft of composing ... Bridge impressed on Britten, "you should...." Please reconsider the structure of this sentence. How about: Bridge impressed on Britten the importance of scrupulous attention to the technical craft of composing and the maxim that "you should...." -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:32, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the same section, you write: Donald Mitchell writes of Bridge's influence on the cycle. What, pray tell, does he write of it? -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:35, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I put quotation marks around the names of a couple of pieces that had none -- please review my changes to see if you agree. -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:07, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • All dealt with. Thank you for these points. Heaven knows what I was doing shovelling Oxford commas in by the ton. Now amended. Tim riley (talk) 12:47, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Further note to reviewers: I have finished my contributions to the Music section, which can now be reviewed along with the main biographical material. Brianboulton (talk) 11:09, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Gerda Arendt[edit]

This is already an impressive article, supplying facts and getting close to the person!

  • I miss mentioning of the Melos Ensemble, many members close friends, he conducted them in the premiere of the War Requiem.
    • Hmm. It's sometimes a question of what to leave out rather than what to put in. I have, for instance, only mentioned the Amadeus Quartet once, and that fleetingly. Similarly, I haven't had room to mention the Vishnevskaya/Harper business at the premiere of the War Requiem.
      • Look and think about it, one link would open many names of the instrumental soloists who played for him, Aronowitz and many more. Gerda Arendt (talk)
  • Lead
    • I am not happy with the overly general "Britten's other works range from orchestral to choral, solo vocal, chamber and instrumental, as well as film music." Can we have two examples for genres not linked before?
      • I'm not good at leads. What you say sounds attractive, and I'll ponder. Tim riley (talk) 16:14, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • I will look again after reading to the end. Entering the article, it seems to say not much, Gerda Arendt (talk)
        • I added two examples, they and others would need to be mentioned more elegantly. I would try to avoid film at the end, as one of the early works. Think about "range from ... to", what else could we say? Mention also that for specific performers? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:20, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • "important muse" - this may be my language problem, but a muse is female for me ;) - "inspiration"? I don't know a better word for important, but there may be one.
      • Well the Muses were undeniably female, but I think with lower case it is probably gender-neutral. I think this sentence is probably OK. Interested to know if anyone else has a view on this point. Tim riley (talk) 16:14, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • "as well as works by Bach, Mozart, Schubert and others." seems also very general, no surprise.
      • Once you've read the article (sorry how long it's got – it seemed to write itself, and I couldn't stop it) perhaps you'd ponder on what specifics we might mention here. I thought this was pretty much covered by the mentions of works in the first para. Tim riley (talk) 16:14, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • Again, first I will read to the end. At this moment, links to Bach and Mozart seem to lead elsewhere, not focus. Gerda Arendt (talk)
        • Covered, sure, but no help for the reader entering the article. I tried to be a bit more specific, change/revert to your liking, Fairy queen and Gerontius would also be good to mention there. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:31, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Together with Pears and the librettist and producer Eric Crozier, Britten founded the annual Aldeburgh Festival" - takes very long to get to the festival.
      • Whisper it softly, but though the Festival was of immense cultural importance in Britten's lifetime, I don't know that it is now generally thought of as his most important legacy. I think mention after we have summarised his importance as a composer is probably about right in the lead. I am not dogmatic on this point, though, and would welcome other editors' views. Tim riley (talk) 16:14, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • What I meant was rather the construction. How about "Britten founded the annual Aldeburgh Festival together with Pears and Eric Crozier, a librettist and producer. ..." Gerda Arendt (talk)
  • Early years: in the end some "first" and "he" in fast succession
  • Lowestoft: pic cap "Frank Bridge, Britten's greatest influence as teacher" almost sounds as if Britten was the teacher
    • Good point. It does rather. I'll think up a better caption. Tim riley (talk) 16:14, 9 July 2013 (UTC) And now done. Tim riley (talk) 16:37, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Early professional life: I would pipe-link the song ""A thousand gleaming fires"" to the work it is part of, or even mention The Company of Heaven.
  • Please don't get excited: I think a miniature infobox just giving times and locations of birth and death, no more, would help people who don't already know where and when to locate him.
    • Et tu, Gerda! I am most definitely not attracted by the idea, and I doubt very much if I could get a consensus among all the interested editors even if I were. Gerda Arendt (talk)
      • No problem. I simply don't like our MOS putting place of birth away from the date, and the info on death even further away. Talking attraction: prend garde a toi ;) Gerda Arendt (talk)
To be continued, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:38, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Return to England: "... his most often played and popular work", - how about "his most popular and often played work" (frequently performed?)
    • I agree, and now I look, I even wonder if I should drop "often played" altogether. If it's his most popular work, then it follows logically that it's the most often played. What think you? Tim riley (talk) 22:01, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • 1960: I don't understand the "nowiki" around the last line. It's in this section that I could imagine the Melos Ensemble, something like: His text interspersed the traditional Requiem Mass with poems by Wilfred Owen, written in the First World War. Britten scored the Latin text for soprano, choir and orchestra, the intimate poetry for tenor and baritone soloists and chamber orchestra. In the premiere, he conducted the Melos Ensemble accompanying Pears and Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau. (mention anti-war poetry?)
    • I have no idea where the "nowiki" came from, and have removed it. (It was mucking up the italics in Owen Wingrave, too.) I'm still not keen to add more detail such as the Melos here, though. I'll ponder. I wonder if Brian B has any views, as he has taken the article under his wing. Tim riley (talk) 22:01, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Last years: "...into a libretto. This was Thomas Mann's novella ..." - how about "into a libretto, Thomas Mann's novella"?
    • Wouldn't this make the sentence rather long? I think I'm happy with it as it stands. Tim riley (talk) 22:01, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Links: some people are linked more than once, fine in a long article. When I wrote the above on the War Requiem I was not aware that more on its music and links to DFD would come.
    • There seems to be an unwritten understanding among WP classical music editors that in big life and works articles like this it is helpful to treat the music section pretty much as if it were a separate article so far as blue links are concerned. But though a blue link seen in the Life section can be duplicated once in the Music section it shouldn't be further reduplicated. Any comments on how I have put this precept into practice will be most gratefully received. It's the sort of thing one can never properly see in something one has written oneself. Tim riley (talk) 22:01, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sections: how do you feel of first Music, then awards and commemoration, then Britten 100? in order not to end with recordings ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:53, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • I am attracted to that suggestion, and had already been pondering along similar lines. Before we get to FAC I think a pow-wow between interested editors about the final structure of the article will be useful. More on this anon. Tim riley (talk) 22:01, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much, Gerda, for these comments. All very much to the point, and I'm grateful, as usual. Tim riley (talk) 22:01, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for making changes, - I am all pleased, and learned again, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:31, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Sarastro[edit]

Venturing outside of sport, and drawn by the mention of cricket twice early on, here are some comments from a definite non-specialist. I've read down to the end of "America" so far.

Lead:

  • We use "genre" twice in the lead. Not a huge problem, but coming up in a short space like this makes it vaguely noticeable.
  • "Among the best known of these is his 1954 The Turn of the Screw": Another minor one, but "these is his" sounds like a tongue-twister if read aloud! Perhaps swap around a few words to avoid this? But not a big deal by any means.
    • Done. Never even thought of that till you mentioned it, for which thank you! Have you tried "Are you copper-bottoming those pans, my man?" "No, I'm aluminiuming 'em, Mum" Tim riley (talk) 21:26, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Britten's other works range from orchestral to choral, solo vocal, chamber and instrumental, as well as film music.": Maybe it's just me, but something seems slightly off here. I would expect another "to" somewhere, and the "as well as" seems a bit lost at the end. But it could just be me.
    • This seems to be a US-UK thing. Whenever I've done "from xxx to yyy to zzz" in earlier articles one or other of the American editors I hugely respect and look to for input takes exception to it. I have pusillanimously followed the line of least resistance. Tim riley (talk) 21:26, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Life and career:

  • "Robert Britten's youthful ambitions to become a farmer": Plural ambitions?
    • No reason for the plural. Now pruned.
  • "who was musically talented but interested in ragtime rather than serious music": Perhaps make clear that it was her who considered ragtime not to be serious, before fans of that music attack us for denigrating it!
    • This was vaguely nagging me at the back of my mind. Now redrawn. Thank you for prodding me. Tim riley (talk) 21:26, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He started piano lessons when he was seven years old, three years later began to play the viola.": This may have been a stylistic choice but it looks like a word is missing such as "and".
    • Mere negligence on my part. Conjunction duly added. Tim riley (talk) 21:26, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Another Ireland pupil, the composer Humphrey Searle, said that Ireland could be "an inspiring teacher to those on his own wavelength"; Britten was not, and learned little from him;[32] he continued to study privately with Bridge.": Perhaps a semi-colon too far here? Particularly as we have another three semi-colon sentence in the previous paragraph. Sarastro1 (talk) 17:19, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Remaining sections: Other than minor points below, I can find little to fault. I found the music section a little harder to follow, but I understood enough to know what was happening. The balance looks right to me; there are a few details repeated in the "biography" and "music" sections, but this is necessary to give context. An admirably detailed and well-written biography. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:18, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • "awakened in him such longings for England that he knew he must return": Is the prose here perhaps shading towards the purple?
    • You are assuredly right, but I think I'll chance my arm and see if I can get away with it at FAC, as I'm rather fond of this sentence. Tim riley (talk) 21:26, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and became an annual event that, at 2013, continues to the present day": Should this be "as of" or "in" instead of "at"? There is another of these later. It sounds odd to me, but perhaps it's just me...
    • This is Riley doing his damnedest not to use Americanisms. I can't be having with "as of", and I hope my version isn't too obtrusive. Tim riley (talk) 21:26, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "It is sometimes believed that Britten had earlier been offered and had declined a knighthood": (note 10) Can it be sometimes believed? Perhaps something along the lines of "It is believed by some…" or "Some believed that…". Sarastro1 (talk) 19:18, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Sarastro, for these comments. As I hope you find when I comment on your cricket articles, a spot of input from the layman can be salutary. Yours certainly has been here. Hope you survive Trent Bridge day three with health and sanity intact. Best, Tim riley (talk) 21:26, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Closing the peer review, with grateful thanks to everyone who has contributed above. On to FAC next! Tim riley (talk) 10:25, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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