Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/Rolaids Relief Man Award/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Scorpion0422 23:51, 6 June 2009 [1].

Rolaids Relief Man Award[edit]

Nominator(s): -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]]call me Keith 21:10, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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I found this page around less than a week ago, and felt like making it into a featured list. Of course there are some grammar corrections needed to be done, so any grammar issues can just go straight onto the list instead of posting it here. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]]call me Keith 21:10, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - the first paragraph has no references—Chris! ct 22:11, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It is referenced by the general. I'll try to find more that could fit into the first paragraph. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]]call me Keith 22:12, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"Because the first closers were nicknamed "firemen," a reference to "putting out the fire" of another team's rally, the trophy is a gold-plated firefighter's helmet."
"Unlike other awards such as the Cy Young Award or the MLB Most Valuable Player (MVP) Award, the Relief Man of the Year is based objectively on statistical performance, rather than subjective opinion."
These two in particular need reference; otherwise it constitutes original research.—Chris! ct 22:16, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It was on the site, but on another page. Done. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]]call me Keith 22:22, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It is also helpful to note those who win multiple times.—Chris! ct 00:48, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
What are you talking about...I already did... -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]]call me Keith 00:51, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I mean in the list, like Bill Russell NBA Finals Most Valuable Player Award—Chris! ct 01:54, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'll do that after the Lakers game. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]]call me Keith 02:27, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, never mind. The reason why there are no notes of multiple winners on the tables of MLB awards is because of the AL and NL. For example, Rollie Fingers had 1 from AL and 3 from NL; some readers will probably look at the table and be confused. i did though denote the BHOFs and active players. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]]call me Keith 04:12, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You can still do it within AL and NL. Rollie Fingers is really the only exception since he won from both AL and NL.—Chris! ct 20:09, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
So what do I do with Rollie Fingers? Lee Smith also has won the award in both leagues. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]]call me Keith 21:43, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Also, merged the two, and added a lot more stuff. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]]call me Keith 22:41, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Truco
Lead
  • 'Because the first closers were nicknamed "firemen," a reference to "putting out the fire" of another team's rally, the trophy is a gold-plated firefighter's helmet.' -- What are 'closers'?
  • 'Unlike other awards such as the Cy Young Award or the MLB Most Valuable Player (MVP) Award, the Relief Man of the Year is based objectively on statistical performance, rather than subjective opinion.' -- Comma before 'such'
  • 'Beginning in the 1987 MLB season, the statistic of a blown save has counted as negative two points.' -- 'in'--> with
  • 'In the 2000 MLB season, Rolaids began awarding four points for a "tough save" when a relieve pitcher enters a game with the tying run already on base and gets the save.' --> In the 2000 MLB season, Rolaids began awarding four points for a "tough save", which is when a relieve pitcher enters a game with the tying run already on base and gets the save.
  • 'Todd Worrell have won both the Relief Man of the Year and the MLB Rookie of the Year Award in the 1986 MLB season.' -- 'have' --> has
  • Its not clarified as to who were the first winners.
  • What do you mean? Do you want me to add who won the first awards? -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]]call me Keith 21:43, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Everything else checks out fine, good work =]

--Truco 19:55, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support -- Previous issues resolved; article now meets WP:WIAFL.--Truco 20:17, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from KV5
Comments from KV5
  • I would make the numbers in the table small, but that's just me, for aesthetic reasons.
Somewhere in MOS says that you shouldn't make things small for appearance. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 01:10, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why the double dagger instead of single? Also, that should be superscripted because it looks cramped and ugly when it's normal-sized.
Because the original dagger looks like the guy died. Also, other baseball FLs use this one. For your second comment, ehh...doesn't matter. I like it when its normal. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 01:10, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Other baseball FLs use the single dagger too. The dagger doesn't have the editorial connotation of death here. The thing I worry about is formatting. This article is intended to be part of a featured topic eventually, which means they should use the same formatting. The Silver Slugger Award lists are the first completed part of the topic. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 01:33, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
So why not just change the Silver Slugger Award daggers to this version? This version won't have anything bad to blame about, as in the single one, looks like a death sign, said by one of the FL reviewers (forgot who). -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 01:38, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Change 9 promoted FLs or 1 candidate? The choice is relatively clear here. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 01:41, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I thought we were talking about the daggers? o.O -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 01:59, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Uh... I was... see above? KV5 (Talk • Phils) 11:39, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Let's just wait until Truco or Dabomb87 comments on this, since I truly believe that we should use ‡ instead of †. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 16:33, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think this is worth arguing about. Since we have a consistent trend, might as well use a single-cross dagger. Dabomb87 (talk) 20:41, 30 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Changed. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 20:40, 31 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The player(s)" - ambiguous, be clear, make the sentence all plural or all singular
Done. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 01:10, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Dan Quisenberry has won the award with five times; Rollie Fingers, Bruce Sutter and Mariano Rivera have won the award four times; Lee Smith has won the award thrice; Bill Campbell, Dennis Eckersley, Dave Righetti, John Franco, Éric Gagné, Randy Myers, Trevor Hoffman, and Francisco Rodriguez have won the award twice." - no reason at all to have three semicolons in the same sentence. Aside from making a run-on, it's very grammatically incorrect. Consider Dan Quisenberry has won the award five times, and Rollie Fingers, Bruce Sutter and Mariano Rivera have won four times. Lee Smith is the only three-time winner; two-time winners include Bill Campbell, Dennis Eckersley, Dave Righetti, John Franco, Éric Gagné, Randy Myers, Trevor Hoffman, and Francisco Rodriguez.
Done. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 01:10, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "MLB.com" isn't needed as a disambiguator in the references. This is only necessary if it's hosted by a subpage of MLB, like "Brewers.MLB.com" or "Angels.MLB.com".
Done. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 01:10, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hope this helps. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 14:04, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Giants2008
Comments –
  • "Dan Quisenberry has won the award with five times." What is "with" doing here?
I have no idea. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 20:27, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Lee Smith has won the award thrice". Why not just "three times", or "on three occasions" if you want to avoid repetition?
Both of these two were marked as done above in my comments and weren't completed. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 20:10, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
KV5, you're used your suggestion, but kept the thrice, since I kind of like the word. Since both of you want it to be changed, Done. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 20:27, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Todd Worrell has won both the Relief Man of the Year and the MLB Rookie of the Year Award in the 1986 MLB season." Remove "has".
Done. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 20:27, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Giants2008 (17-14) 20:05, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Weak oppose – One more thing is very close to the source: "when a relief pitcher enters a game with the tying run already on base and gets the save." Swap "reliever" for "relief pitcher" and you've got an exact copy of the citation. Normally I'd never oppose over one issue, but I don't want this to be promoted until this is re-phrased. Please let me know when this is done, because I'm ready to support otherwise. Giants2008 (17-14) 23:51, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • To be honest, I can't think of any other way to change that sentence, while having the same description. If you can, you're probably a genius, and I won't really care if you edit the article. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 05:12, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Though I did change the sentence while having the same explanation, I'm still not a genius. :D. Done. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 05:18, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Better, but the "Rolaids began awarding four points for a tough save" bit is still identical to the source. Also, I think the paraphrased part has had its meaning changed. The points are awarded when the tying run is on base when the pitcher comes in, not having the tying run on base on general. Giants2008 (17-14) 17:59, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support – There was another bit that was identical to the source, but I took care of it myself so as to not hold this up any more. Please ensure that a better paraphrasing job is done in future nominations. Giants2008 (17-14) 23:29, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support, all issues resolved. Dabomb87 (talk) 13:58, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved issues, Dabomb87 (talk)
Oppose from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs)
  • "The Rolaids Relief Man Award is an annual Major League Baseball (MLB) award given since the 1976 MLB season to the top relief pitcher of the regular season, one in the American League (AL), and one in the National League (NL)." Commas after "award" and "season".
Done. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 21:06, 30 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Can you explain in the article what a relief pitcher is?
Done. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 21:06, 30 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm concerned about the close similarity between the source text and the article. Here is an example (italics mine for emphasis):
    • Source:

    • "The Rolaids Relief Man Award® is based objectively on statistical performance, rather than subjective opinion."

    • Article:

    • "Unlike other awards, such as the Cy Young Award or the MLB Most Valuable Player (MVP) Award, the Relief Man of the Year is based objectively on statistical performance, rather than subjective opinion."

      This is much too close to the source text. Please see WP:PLAGIARISM and paraphrase.
Done. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 21:06, 30 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Rolaids began awarding four points for a "tough save", which is when a relief pitcher enters a game with the tying run already on base and gets the save." Too JARGONy: "tying run ... on base" will make little sense to those not familiar with baseball.
Linked run with Baserunning. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 21:06, 30 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Campbell went on to win another one the season after."-->Campbell also won in the following season.
Done. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 21:06, 30 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The most recent award winners were Rodriguez (AL) and Brad Lidge (NL)." "were"-->are
Done. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 21:06, 30 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Can you center the year column? I don't understand why some columns are centered and others aren't.
Ehh...you don't have too, but I centered the years anyways. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 21:06, 30 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Denotes the number of times the pitcher has won the award"-->Denotes winning pitcher and the number of times they had won the award at that point.
Done. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 21:06, 30 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Dabomb87 (talk) 20:41, 30 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sources look good. Dabomb87 (talk) 20:41, 30 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support I see no further problems. Reywas92Talk 16:05, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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