Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Tom Crean (explorer)

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 19:41, 15 November 2008 [1].

Tom Crean (explorer)[edit]

Nominator(s): Zatoichi26 (talk), Brianboulton (talk)

I'm nominating this article for featured article because I believe it meets all the criteria. It has been further improved by a peer review. Zatoichi26 (talk) 03:06, 6 November 2008 (UTC) Also, Brianboulton has graciously offered to co-nominate. Zatoichi26 (talk) 03:21, 6 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments
  • Sources look good; links check out with the link checker.
  • One of ten children, he attended the local Brackluin Catholic school until the age of twelve, leaving school to lend much needed help on the family farm. - Numbers above ten are spelled out, per MOS. I see this a couple of times in the article.
  • Nonetheless, his assignment to the Ringarooma was to change the course of his life. - The word "nonetheless" should generally be avoided.
  • Crean soon established himself as one of the most consistent man-haulers in the party, with only seven of the 48–member party logging more time in harness than Crean's 149 days. - Change the en dash to a hyphen.
  • These included the 12–man party led by Barne which set out on 30 October 1902 to lay depots in support of the main southern journey, undertaken by Captain Scott, Shackleton and Edward Wilson. - Again.
  • During the first winter Discovery became locked in the ice, and consequently Crean and the rest of the men did not leave the Antarctic until the ship was freed again in February 1904. - I'm slightly confused as to when the Discovery became stuck.
  • Indeed, Crean's experience was relied upon as he would be one of the few men in the party with polar experience. - "Indeed" is a slightly POV-ish word.
  • During the night the ice broke up, leaving the men adrift on an ice floe and separated from their sledges. - Could you link ice floe?
  • When they arrived, the men, led by ship's carpenter Harry McNish, rebuilt one of the lifeboats—the James Caird—so that Shackleton and a crew of five could sail to South Georgia and arrange a rescue. - "That" is redundant.
  • He and Eileen opened up a small pub in Annascaul called the South Pole Inn. - Remove "up".

A fascinating read overall. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 03:36, 6 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 14:26, 6 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have seen to the above minor fixes, and also fixed one dablink. Brianboulton (talk) 11:47, 6 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • You're trying to express too many ideas in one sentence. Take for example: "One of ten children, he attended the local Brackluin Catholic school until the age of twelve, leaving school to lend much needed help on the family farm." The first part of the sentence has nothing to do with the rest, so these should be separated. - 131.211.151.245 (talk) 08:50, 6 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks for the suggestion. The elements in the sentence actually flow quite naturally together; I think this preferable to staccato prose. However, I have tweaked the sentence a little, to make it more concise. Brianboulton (talk) 11:47, 6 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • That above anon was me: Let me rephrase it. You're not suggesting the school had just 10 children in it, are you? Because that is what the current sentence implies. - Mgm|(talk) 12:46, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • I would respectfully disagree that this is how people would read the sentence, but I've given it one more tweak for clarification. Brianboulton (talk) 12:56, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • It takes a few more words, but I like the rewrite. It's totally clear what is meant here and the sentence is grammatically correct. - Mgm|(talk) 18:21, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:56, 6 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • Image:Crean statue.jpg - Who took this photo? The uploader?
    • We have assumed so. I have sent the uploader a note asking him for confirmation of this - he is not too active at the moment, so he may not respond. Brianboulton (talk) 10:50, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • I have had a swift response from the uploader, who has confirmed that he is the author of the image, and has added this info to the image page. Brianboulton (talk) 16:19, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The images that were scanned from books should have complete publication information for the sources (author, title, publication location, publisher, publication date) - just as if they were a reference in a bibliography.

These concerns should be easily addressed. Awadewit (talk) 02:09, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support I peer reviewed this and rotated an image. I find it meets the FA criteria. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 04:04, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thank you, & for helping to straighten the image. Brianboulton (talk) 10:50, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Provisional support - This is a clearly written, comprehensive, and well-researched article. This series on Antarctic explorers and expeditions is really fascinating - thanks! Nitpicks:

  • Crean had caught Captain Scott's attention with his ability and work ethic on the Discovery Expedition, and in 1906 Scott requested that Crean join him on HMS Victorious - What ability?
    • I've change "ability" to "attitude", which seems more apt in relation to Zatoichi's text on the Discovery Expedition. Brianboulton (talk) 10:50, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Shackleton is centre picture. - Perhaps this sentence could be fixed up a bit?
  • What is the difference between the Smith book in the "References" and the Smith book in the "Further reading"? Do we need to cite both?
    • I'll leave this to Zatoichi - perhaps this edition had more images or something. I don't know, though. Brianboulton (talk) 10:50, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Apparently the second Smith book was added without Zatoichi's knowledge. There's no purpose in having it as further reading, so it has been removed. Brianboulton (talk) 09:39, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I will fully support as soon as the image issues are resolved. Awadewit (talk) 04:35, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • I have struck the "provisional" bit as the image concerns have now been addressed. Awadewit (talk) 16:23, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Support after rereading. Karanacs (talk) 14:53, 14 November 2008 (UTC) Comments. This is a very interesting article! I did find a few minor things that I'd like to see fixed.[reply]

  • "Crean's would be relied upon as one of the few men in the party with polar experience" - not sure what this is trying to say... There is either a missing word or an extra possessive
  • There are comma issues throughout the article. I fixed a few but I see more. There does not need to be a comma after "and" unless both halves are complete sentences. For example, there should not be a comma in "he did this and then did that" but there should be for "he did this, and then he did that."
  • Small point: This is optional. One can use commas to separate "and" clauses if one so desires, even if the "and" does not precede a complete sentence. I personally do not use this style, but it is legitimate. Awadewit (talk) 17:29, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Ick. I was taught that it was a pretty hard and fast rule, but I guess things have changed. Thanks, Awa. Karanacs (talk) 18:13, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • when I first read this I thought it took him two months to cry - "Displaying uncharacteristic emotion, and after two months of effort, Crean broke down and wept at the prospect of having to turn back, so close to the goal."
  • "has also been suggested that Surgeon Atkinson, '...suggested by whom?
  • There seem to be a few POV words/phrases strung throughout. For example, "Worse was to follow,"
  • POV? As long as its NPOV, that's fine. It's hardly "Better was to follow". I may be snowblind but at least now I've got scurvy! Whoopee! Yomanganitalk 20:33, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I removed "worse was to follow" and changed a couple of other POV phrases as discussed with Brian on our talk pages. Zatoichi26 (talk) 18:34, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think all possible POVs have now been removed, now Brianboulton (talk) 22:04, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is a lot of passive voice that could be converted to active voice. That usually helps the prose flow better. For example "The hope was..." could be "The men hoped",
    • Rephrased as suggested, however this was the only passive voice I could find. Zatoichi26 (talk) 18:34, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • I found a few other passive voice instances, and have rephrased them. See Article history edit summaries for details. Brianboulton (talk) 18:17, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • His wife is listed variously as Ellen and Eileen
    • Ellen is correct (Eileen was his daughter) - fixed Brianboulton (talk) 18:06, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Smith uses "Eileen" throughout, so I just made a note of that, and left it at "Ellen" in the article. Zatoichi26 (talk) 18:31, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Karanacs (talk) 17:23, 7 November 2008 (UTC) Thank you for these comments. I have done the simple fixes, but I'll let Zatoichi look at the other points, since most of the prose work was his. Brianboulton (talk) 18:06, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support - Only briefly skimmed it, but it looks fairly good. A bit unhappy with the breaking down and weeping when he's left out of the Polar party. Scott says the three were "disappointed", Bowers that "Crean was half in tears". Does Smith mention his source for the more dramatic version? Yomanganitalk 19:47, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • What Scott says (diary entry 4 January 1912) is: "Poor old Crean wept". Admittedly, this was when the returning party said their final goodbyes to the polar party, but it's within the sense of what's written here, and is a reasonable source for Smith's version. Brianboulton (talk) 21:42, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • "Broke down" is a bit of an embellishment (although Caroline Alexander makes exactly the same embellishment in her version of the story in Endurance). Bowers is the master of understatement I admit, but "half in tears" doesn't suggest Crean broken down. Also I'm not sure he display of emotion was uncharacteristic: Teddy Evans reports Crean crying a few days later and Shackleton mentions he took the shooting of the pups on the Endurance expedition "badly". Yomanganitalk 01:00, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • I agree with you about the "uncharacteristic" label - in fact, I think he was a right old crybaby - and I'll discuss with my co-nom (who is the main author) whether this description should go. Brianboulton (talk) 01:33, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • I agree "uncharacteristic" should go. From what I've read in Smith and Alexander about Crean, he was quite emotional. I reworded it. Zatoichi26 (talk) 04:30, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
            • I'd still like "broke down" to go ideally. It is too dramatic in this phlegmatic world. Yomanganitalk 12:13, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Having had a better read, it looks good. The balance between the Terra Nova and Endurance expeditions is a bit off in my opinion: we get full details on Terra Nova and very much a summary on Endurance. A couple of other very minor points:
    • Looking at the article again, I think you're right on the balance thing. My impression from reading 3 or 4 books on the subject, and Brianboulton can jump in here with his opinion, is that the Endurance related books don't have too much detail on Crean's involvement specifically, they more concern Shackleton's activities, or the group's activities. I think the books on Terra Nova, like the diaries or Cherry-Garrard's book, have more detail on Crean specifically, so this section is longer. Doesn't make it right but that's my explanation... I mean we can expand on the Endurance section with general information but then we risk treading into Imperial Trans-Antarctic Expedition territory. Zatoichi26 (talk) 05:03, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Crean was very much a minor figure on the Discovery Expedition; Scott's account hardly mentions him, Wilson's just once. On the Terra Nova Expedition he was much more to the fore in several major aspects, and his activities are well documented. On the Endurance Crean, a modest man, was again more or less in the background until the James Caird voyage and the South Georgia crossing. I think these episodes are adequately covered, and don't see much point in writing more about the earlier parts of the expedition where Crean was less prominent. But please let us know if you believe there are episodes on this expedition which are important to the Crean story that are either omitted or inadequately covered. Brianboulton (talk) 10:58, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • I think the Discovery coverage is fine (as you say, he was a minor figure). Endurance could perhaps mention: Crean's role as dog handler in the absence of an expert on the expedition, his accident early on where he was crushed while chipping ice, his selection to scout out a better camp site on Elephant Island as one of the 4 fittest men on the group's arrival, his tuneless singing on the James Caird (for a little light relief).
          • Alexander's book says Crean was put in charge of training the 4 pups (see lead photo), and him being placed in charge of one of the dog teams, but I could not find reference to him being the main dog handler. Brian, maybe you can comment. I'll get to the other suggestions directly above, when I get more time. Zatoichi26 (talk) 18:54, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
            • I've added bits to the text explaining Crean's role re the dogs, his narrow escape from being crushed, his being one of the four fittest men, and his tuneless singing. I have to agree with Yomangani that this slight filling-out enhances the Endurance episode. I have cited all these details to Shackleton's account, which doesn't name Crean as the main dog handler, but does mention the non-arrival of a dogs expert—a Canadian, would you believe? Brianboulton (talk) 21:55, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
            • Come on now, don't let the deliquency of one tarnish the reputation of all us Canucks! Zatoichi26 (talk) 23:56, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
              • I meant to suggest he was a dog handler rather than the main dog-handler (though he probably did more in this area than any of the others what with caring for both the pups and his assigned team), so that's fine. The Canadian possibly dropped out to enlist, so he may not have been a bad apple. Sir Daniel Gooch stepped into his shoes until South Georgia as a favour to Shackleton (he's the bloke sat down next to Shackleton in the crew photo). Yomanganitalk 01:42, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I think Crean was invited on the Quest Expedition but declined (haven't a source for that to hand but it is an important point in his Antarctic career if you can verify it).
    • Crean suffered snowblindness on the return journey with Lashly and Evans as well which might be worth mentioning.
    • Any reason why Farthest South has been piped to furthest south? Seems a bit pointless. Yomanganitalk 02:44, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • The term "furthest south" is used throughout this article, and that's OK provided it's consistent. "Farthest South" happens to be the name of the wiki article on this subject, hence the pipe. Brianboulton (talk) 11:10, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments This article is almost there. Definitely an interesting person. I did some minor copyedits. Here's a bunch of other comments I wrote down as I was reading the article:
  1. You say fifteen in the lead and later 15 in the text. Use of numbers should be consistent throughout. Not sure if the MOS prefers 15 to be written out or not, but one of those is incorrect.
MOS says numbers over 10 should be numeric unless starting a sentence. I've made the lead figure numeric. Brianboulton (talk) 00:46, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  1. "...led to the award of the Albert Medal." I suggest something along the lines of: "...led to him receiving the Albert Medal." (without -ing this construction is grammatically incorrect)
Adjusted, per your suggestion. Brianboulton (talk) 00:46, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  1. "...probably lying about his age to get in." This is speculation and needs to be sourced or removed. He could have special permission. Also The Boy Seaman article states: "Boy 2nd Class - A boy aged 15 to 17 rated as such on entry to a training ship of the Royal Navy.

Such entry was conditional on a boy's adequate physical height, weight and medical fitness and evidence of being of 'good character'. The boy's parents or guardians would sign a declaration that the boy would serve in the Navy for a minimum period (usually 12 years)." If that is true, nothing is wrong with his age at all.

I'll have to ask Zatoichi to deal with this, as he wrote it. I'm pretty sure the "lying about his age" comes from Smith, but Zatoichi will sort it out. I'm most impressed that you took the trouble to consult the Boy Seaman article. Brianboulton (talk) 00:46, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Seemed like the logical thing to do. - Mgm|(talk) 19:07, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Biographer Michael Smith says it "appears that Crean had a major row with is father" and "swore he would run away to sea", setting off to the Royal Navy station at Minard Inlet and signing up. He further writes that "Officially the lowest enlistment age was sixteen and the assumption is the fifteen-year-old lad will have either forged his papers or lied about his age" Putting this together with the Boy Seaman article, the "lying" part is plausible due to his being 15-17 and not having his parents' consent. I updated the article in this vein. Zatoichi26 (talk) 02:51, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  1. "...and faced a three-day detour around the large icefall..." You didn't specify a specific icefall. Shouldn't you say "a large icefall" instead?
Done. Brianboulton (talk) 00:46, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  1. "By early February he was in great pain, his joints swollen and discoloured, and passing blood." Was he passing blood or were his joints? You probably mean he did, but the sentence can be read to mean either.
Prose adjusted to get grammar right and meaning clear. Brianboulton (talk) 00:46, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  1. " In the early efforts to free her, Crean narrowly escaped being crushed by

a sudden movement in the ice, but was pulled free." Was it Crean or the ship that was pulled free? If it was Crean, you can leave the bit after the final comma altogether because that was what the word 'escaped' already implied. If it was the ship, the sentence needs to be changed for clarification. - Mgm|(talk) 18:18, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

On your last point, I've removed the redundant phrase per your suggestion. Thank you for all your helpful comments. Brianboulton (talk) 00:46, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • This information was in an earlier version of the article. The Guinness ad was dropped on the grounds of being trivial. There is a possible case for including information about the play in the final section, and I am discussing this with the other nominator. Brianboulton (talk) 17:03, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Provided the play the play gets in. Having a play based on (part of) your life is definitely not trivial and should be mentioned. Depending on the background of the ad, it might be worth including too. It might be trivial in the general scheme of things, but that's why it would get appropriate weight (a tiny bit compared to the entire article). I haven't heard of real polar explorers being used in commercials so it's quite uncommon. (I removed one duplicate word in the lead) =- Mgm|(talk) 19:07, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • OK, I'll put the film in. As to the ad, there have been adverts using polar explorers in the past. Captain Scott's Terra Nova expedition had heavy commercial sponsorship. I personally don't like seeing genuine heroes' names used in this way; such is media power that the person becomes associated with the product rather than their deeds. It's a personal view, I know, but I hold it strongly. Brianboulton (talk) 23:59, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Personally I would leave the play out; it seems to be a very minor (indeed one-man) play, too minor to include. But I don't feel too strongly about it. The beer ad I feel should definitely be left out, since it would end the article on a very trivial and superficial note, considering the man's life accomplishments. Zatoichi26 (talk) 03:01, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • I agree with that. The best reason for mentioning the play is that it enables the article to end on a dignified note, with his daughter's remarks, which I think do proper credit to the man. Brianboulton (talk) 09:27, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • From what I found the play did a national tour through the UK. That doesn't sound superficial to me. - 131.211.151.245 (talk) 11:43, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
            • The "superficial" description refers to the advert, not the play. Brianboulton (talk) 17:02, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Could Image:Pic2ponys.jpg be a bit enlarged. It's hard to get a clear view of its subjects at the current size. - Mgm|(talk) 19:08, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • MOS recommends that image sizes should not be forced, i.e. made larger than the default size. MOS:IMAGE lists exceptions, e.g. lead image, maps, but these don't cover our pony picture. The ideas is that readers use the thumb to get an enlarged image. Brianboulton (talk) 23:35, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do we have a verdict? I think all comments have been addressed. Zatoichi26 (talk) 23:28, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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