Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Harmon Killebrew/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ucucha 00:51, 23 August 2011 [1].

Harmon Killebrew[edit]

Harmon Killebrew (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Wizardman 18:43, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I promised that I would bring a more notable person here after my last FAC, and I have done just that, nominating a member of the Baseball Hall of Fame. This is an article that has a rather unique history. Back in 2008, this became part of a WikiProject Baseball article improvement drive, as we saw a few Hall of Famers who had rather poor articles. It became a GA easily, and for the moment that was all.

In December 2010, I saw him back in the news again due to his cancer diagnosis, and restarted work on it to try and bring it here. I realized that the prose wasn't really all that good, and over the past several months have essentially rewritten the entire article. He unfortunately died last month, and further modifications were again done to the article. The article was made tougher to modify because he was known as a nice, quiet guy; it's a lot easier to write about someone if they are (at least a little bit) verbose or controversial, as there's more to sink your teeth into.

In any event, I don't think I'll be able to improve this more than I already have, and I do believe it finally meets FAC criteria. It's a WikiCup nom, though I'm more concerned with it being another notable figure whose article the baseball project and wikipedia can be proud of. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 18:43, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:21, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • "the Twins finished the 1968 season below .500 for the first time since 1961" - source?
  • "Killebrew led the best offense in the league and rookie manager Billy Martin's Twins won the new American League West division as a result." - source?
  • "He chose to be released" - source?
  • Source for career hitting stats table?
  • FN 2: page(s)?
  • Why not include both authors for shortened citations to Pahigian?
  • Official title of NYT is The New York Times
  • Sports Reference or Sports-Reference?
  • Compare formatting of FNs 37 and 43 - this inconsistency occurs more than once
  • What makes this a high-quality reliable source?
  • Be consistent in what is wikilinked when
  • FN 115: retrieval date? Nikkimaria (talk) 19:21, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    In progress, though noting that I'm not sure the he chose to be released needs a source. He was given those three options, and the fact that he signed with another baseball team the next year shows that he chose the release option. Everything else is done sans the wikilinking; I'll take a close look through the refs tonight and catch any of those issues. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 19:44, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Everything is now done sans my point above, though if others also think it should be sourced I'll go find one to add in. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 02:21, 1 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

comment - the legacy section seems a little repetitive to some of the rest of the article. And I know it's a product of this type of article but the career sections are kind of a dry this and then that sort of thing. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 23:26, 1 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Noted; if I were to move the legacy information into the article, it may be able to fix the dry prose, since anecdotes and the like would be mixed in. Not sure how well that would read but I could give it a shot. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 00:23, 2 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    That could hinder navigation. I envision people seeing a "Legacy" section title in the table of contents and clicking on that to skip the boring career part. That wouldn't be possible if the legacy section were absorbed into the career section. Wknight94 talk 03:01, 2 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    I went ahead and tried moving the legacy stuff into appropriate spots in the article, but it didn't read very well upon doing that, so I'll keep as is, though most repetition is out of the section now. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 14:41, 4 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I am not a fan of this sentence. Killebrew was a quiet, kind man who was not a fan of the partying lifestyle. Quiet and kind are subjective adjectives. Dincher (talk) 16:14, 4 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Added an extra ref for the adjectives. There are a myriad of refs out there that support and note Killebrew's quiet attitude, so I'd prefer to keep it in ideally. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 18:59, 4 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No problem. Dincher (talk) 22:07, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Source-checking – Articles that I can effectively spot-check for sourcing issues don't come around that often, but this is one of them. I went through around 20 cites and came up with the following concerns:

  • The first reference doesn't say anything about his AL right-handed home runs record being broken by A-Rod. I'd imagine it was written before that happened, and I'd imagine the fact was mentioned in an RS when the record-breaking homer was hit.
  • It also isn't giving the figure for his number of games played in 1960, which is given in the article. Good news is that any stat site worth its salt should take care of it.
  • In reference 3, the quote is different than the one found in the lead. SI: "Just washing the dishes, I guess". Article: "Well, I like to wash dishes, I guess". Are you sure this didn't come from another source? For what it's worth, a later reference from ESPN that I checked agrees with the SI version of the quote.
  • First two words are missing from the title of ref 33. It also doesn't say that Maris broke the record, though this may be considered common knowledge for baseball fans.
  • Says in the article that Killebrew made every All-Star Game from 1961 until 1972, but the source says his streak (ref 80) was only nine in a row when snapped. Is it only referring to fan balloting?
  • Reference 110 doesn't mention anything about how Killebrew wasn't a partier; it just says he wasn't flashy. You'll definitely want to add another source to support that fact.
  • Reference 115 doesn't say that Killebrew spread rumors about his being the model for the MLB logo; it says an announcer was responsible. The information clearly came from ref 116, so that should be used as a source here as well.
  • While I'm here, please fix the use of Killebew after ref 85. Also, capitalize twins beforehand. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 00:40, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for that. Admittedly the source part was what I was a bit iffy about, given the multiple rewrites the article has went through while keeping many of the same refs. Fixed everything, just noting a couple things here. Maris's 61 home runs in 1961 is definitely common knowledge (a bit less so since 1998 but still). For the 1962-1972 streak, the nine in a row checks out (1963-1971 had nine games); the article says he was in every game from 1963 to 1971 rather than 1961, unless I somehow missed it twice (there were multiple all-star games in the early 1960s, but luckily that doesn't come into play here, even I get confused by that). I'll look around for a ref on the lack of partying, since I want to include that, but of course if there's no sources than I can't have it in. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 02:37, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Response on the All-Star Game issue: the article actually contradicts itself. The 1972 section has the apparently faulty 1961 date (it claims that was the last one he missed before '72), but the 1962 section indicates he missed the two All-Star Games that year. Looks like 1972 needs fixing. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 01:10, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Ah ok, looks like I just made a year typo there then, never a good one to make; all the uncrossed issues are fixed now. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 15:40, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Only thing I see left to comment on from the source review is that the partying stuff is still in the lead and should probably be removed since it's been taken out of the body. If it can be sourced and put back in the body, obviously this becomes a moot point. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 00:05, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Whoops, forgot it was in the lead. That's gone now. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 00:47, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Images: File:TwinsRetired3.png has improper licensing; If it was a symbol used by the team, then the uploader does not own the rights to release. File:MOA Killebrew Drive 080705.JPG could do with a cleanup. Other than that, it checks out. J Milburn (talk) 23:48, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed first and cleaned up second. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 00:49, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I've had a look to the end of the 1961-65 section, and intend to look at the rest. This article does look like it has been the work of several editors as the prose is slightly uneven, and the further into the article you look, the more awkward some parts become. I've copy-edited as I've gone along, but there are some parts that I cannot clear up myself and I have listed them below. I don't think the prose is up to scratch at the moment, but it fairly straightforward to fix and certainly it is not worth an oppose. It tends to lapse into sports-speak but it just needs a polish. If Wizardman has no objections (and I haven't mangled the article with what I've done so far) I'll try to copy-edit the rest as well. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:56, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • The article seems to switch between RBI and RBIs. I'm not sure which is correct.
  • "He had his finest season in 1969…" Could this be more precise? Finest how? The most home runs and/or RBIs? Or the only time he won the MVP award. Or because everyone says it is?
  • "Killebrew was, in fact, a quiet, kind man…" Reads like POV; what about "Colleagues/friends/whoever regarded as a quiet, kind man". I think "in fact" is rendered unnecessary by "despite" at the beginning of the sentence.
  • "In his youth, he was a farmworker, where he lifted 10-gallon milk cans, each can weighing about 95 lb (43 kg).": Does farmworker really need linking? And "in his youth" is a little imprecise: the location of this information after his school career suggests a young adult at least and I think a date or something more specific would aid the chronology here.
  • "becoming the youngest player in the majors at the time": Does this mean he was the youngest player in 1954, or he was the youngest player who had appeared in the majors up until that point?
  • "Killebrew was called on to pinch run for Clyde Vollmer, who had drawn a bases-loaded walk off of Chicago White Sox starter Jack Harshman while pinch hitting for Senators reliever Chuck Stobbs." Jargon: pinch run, pinch hitting and reliever need linking at least. And I'm afraid "drawn a bases-loaded walk off of…" defeats my limited knowledge of baseball!
  • "…where he played behind veteran Eddie Yost": Er, does this mean he stood behind him in the field (forgive my ignorance!) or he was behind him in the "pecking order"?
  • "and a home stadium where hitting home runs to left field was difficult." Again with my ignorance, I assume this is where the majority of his hits would go as a right hander?
  • "…the only player to hit a home run over the center field wall at Engel Stadium…" Was he the first, or the only one to date? If the latter, unless the stadium no longer exists, this needs a "only one as of 2011" on it.
  • "had a slow April in 1959 … but he picked up the pace in May": Slow is unencyclopedic here, and so is picked up the pace. But I'm not sure what slow would mean in this context, so I can't suggest anything.
  • "He did not play in the second game, but in the first game, he hit a pinch hit home run to give the AL its first run." Awkward repetition of run.
  • "his speed began to decrease": Speed of running presumably, the implication of this following the mention of his triples season being he could no longer run fast enough to score triples? Or was it a fielding issue? Possibly spell it out.
  • "It was considered the most dramatic home run in Twins history…" Who considers it?
  • "the Twins went 28–19…" I think the win-loss thing should be spelt out on its first use.
  • "and Killebrew hit a World Series home run off Don Drysdale in Game 4…" Is a World Series home run different from another type, or does this simply mean he hit a home run in the World Series?
  • "Overall, Minnesota was shut out in three other games, twice by Sandy Koufax, and the Dodgers won the series in seven games." I'm not sure what shut outs are in this context. Why three other games? No other shut outs are referred to, so it would be better as just "three games". Also, I'm not sure if the info on Koufax in relevant here. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:56, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Your copyedits to the article look good. Changes made, though a few notes: RBI and RBIs seem to be interchangeable in the baseball community, but most prefer the latter given that runs is plural, so I've fixed those. In 1969, he led the league in HR, RBI, and got his only MVP; the latter in particular is why I wrote his finest. I could change it to finest statistical year, which seems to be true. I couldn't find anything more accurate on the farmhand note besides him doing that as a youngster, but I'll look around. On the Yost point, it's the latter; Yost was the starter and Killebrew the backup. Most right-handed batters would probably pull the ball to left field, since ironically they are on the left side of home plate from the umpire's point of view. I removed it though since even I had to double-check that since I was unsure if that sounded right. A professional team hasn't played in Engel Stadium since 99, but it still exists; I'll leave it as is for now, but if you're certain on adding in the as of then I'll do so. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 15:50, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

More comments: Done up to 1970-74, still copy-editing as I go. Sorry this is taking so long. --Sarastro1 (talk) 22:58, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Killebrew's home run prowess was on display during the 1967 season when..." Not too sure about this; it reads a little like sports journalism and I wonder if it is needed at all? I've reworded it slightly, but ... Maybe lose the prowess part and keep the rest?
  • "Killebrew made a bold prediction at the beginning of the 1968 season. He was serving as a prosecution witness in a case where his name was being used to sell stocks, and when the defense attorney asked him how the Twins would do this year, he replied, "I hope it's a great one."" Not too sure here. Who says the prediction was bold? The court case is not really that important to the story unless more details are given (it sounds quite interesting) and the quote is a little underwhelming. It is not actually a prediction and is not really bold, it's more a case of "I hope we do well". Maybe I'm missing something or maybe the story needs a little more bite.
  • "At the time, the injury was considered career-threatening, but he returned to limited action in September, having missed the six to eight weeks originally projected": I don't think we need the projection; how many weeks was he out?/
  • "again defeating the A's..." I assume this is Oakland Athletics? Should it have an apostrophe?
  • "while playing in all 162 games": Is this "in all" meaning in total, or in all meaning he played in every possible game?
  • " the Baltimore Orioles used the league's best pitching staff to shut down Minnesota and sweep the series..." I'm a bit lost here in terms of "shut down" and "sweep the series" (presumably win all the games? A number of games may help here). "Used the league's best pitching staff" sounds awkward and suggests they borrowed them from somewhere else. What about "used their pitching staff, the best in the league, to ..."
  • "Baltimore avoided Killebrew by walking him six times in the three games..." I think walking is already linked, but maybe expand this a little: am I right in thinking this tactic is to eliminate the risk of him hitting lots of runs because he was a dangerous hitter? For the uninitiated, it may be worth spelling this out here as it would give a bit more impact of his reputation.
  • "He spent most of the season's first half..." This is odd as it suggests the second half was less successful. Yet after mentioning the close race in the All Star voting (were they direct rivals for one place, or more generally in terms of the most votes?), nothing is said about the second half except he was third in the MVP.
  • Was there any reaction to his 500th home run? Presumably it was a big deal. --Sarastro1 (talk) 22:58, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Issues fixed. The 1968 anecdote was originally very interesting when I found it, but when I found a ref that actually noted everything, the quotation shifted to a rather mild form. I took out the "prediction" but left the case in. The A's are the short form of the Athletics; I wrote it out since that was around the time they changed locations so it could have been interpreted as a new team. There's 162 games in a year, so Killebrew did in fact play in all of them. You're right on the walking; generally if players are intentionally walked then the pitcher/manager is afraid of their run-scoring ability, so either they didn't want to pitch to him or the pitcher had no control; since the rest of the Twins weren't walked I'd say the former, so I tweaked that a bit (I have no way of knowing if the walks were intentional, but that's getting into a whole new section of strategy; that'll be for another day). Surprisingly, I found nothing aside from the usual batch of references for his 500th home run; I figured I would have found something big. I'll keep looking though. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 16:23, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Final comments, inclined to support: Sorry this has taken so long! The article looks very good and I will be delighted to support once these final concerns are addressed. --Sarastro1 (talk) 19:27, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • The second paragraph of the Kansas City Royals section is currently a career summary. It includes a lot of "currently". This really needs "as of 2011" but to be honest it would look dreadful if each record had a "as of 2011". I'm not too sure how to fix this; possibly stick in a note which says all of the records are current in 2011, or possibly (my preferred option) would be to join all the records together, such as "as of 2011, he is the fifth XXX". I'm not too bothered either way, but it needs something.
  • Later life: could a note or explanation be added about how the voting works for the hall of fame; reading that he had 59% and 71% of the vote is a little odd to someone who has no idea how it works!
  • When he was a commentator, for which station(s) did he work?
  • His divorce and remarriage are mentioned, but not his first marriage.
  • The first paragraph of "legacy" does not really fit here as it is not about his legacy. Maybe it could be moved to the end of his career in the Kansas section? Or if the section was re-titled (see below) it would work better.
  • The picture of the chair in the flume ride is presumably the one mentioned in the text, but this is not immediately clear. Could something be added to the caption to help here?
  • Maybe I'm missing it, but there is an excellent "technical" analysis in the lead which discusses why he was good; this does not seem to be replicated in the main body. This kind of "style and technique" is the one thing missing, even if it is just a word or two. I might put it in the legacy section and rename this "Character, technique and legacy" although this is not the catchiest title.--Sarastro1 (talk) 19:27, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Did what I could here; moved the career summary in KC down to the legacy section and modified the title. I didn't add much else in the way of technique details just because they tend to be subjective and sensationalized in sports sources, though I did move it with the legacy stuff. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 02:43, 19 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • I put in one "as of 2011" which I believe gives the others context. --Sarastro1 (talk) 18:35, 19 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: Most of my concerns are addressed. The prose would probably stand further tightening in places, but there is nothing too bad and I think this meets the standards comfortably. An excellent piece of work. (Copy-editing disclaimer) --Sarastro1 (talk) 18:35, 19 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I keep meaning to review, but haven't found time. But I read the lead and spent a lot of time trying to untangle the sentence about the longest home run, going through several steps. At first, I was going to ask you to review for "as of" dates, because of his longest home run at Metropolitan Stadium, but then I realized that the article never mentions that record stands for eternity since that stadium is no more, and then I realized that we mention the longest home run:

During the 1967 season, Killebrew showed his ability to hit long home runs when, on June 3, 1967, he struck the longest home run recorded at Metropolitan Stadium, a shot that landed in the second deck of the bleachers.[54]

early in the article, including the lead, but don't state how long it was until later:

On June 3, 1967, Killebrew hit a 520-foot (160 m) home run, the longest measured home run ever hit at Metropolitan Stadium and the longest in Twins history.

This all needs to be disentangled somehow, and it reminds me that you may need to check for as of dates. An as of date isn't needed here because Metropolitan Stadium is no more, but the article should clarify that early on, and state how long the home run was earlier in the article, on first mention perhaps. I will try to read more later. The "longest in Twins history" does require an "as of" date. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:06, 22 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I added the distance for both home runs in the lead; if I should add it in the body in 1967 as well I can do that. I added an as of for the Twins record itself, Thome almost broke it a few days ago so that's probably good to have. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 17:19, 22 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Any other comments for me to address? Wizardman Operation Big Bear 16:47, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Lead looks good! from Cryptic C62 · Talk:

  • I've made a few minor adjustments to the lead. Please look these over and let me know if there are any changes with which you disagree.
  • "striking 40 homers in a season eight times." I would advise against the use of "striking" in this manner, as it has a specific meaning in the context of baseball and may thus be somewhat confusing. Also, I would prefer to see "home run" instead of "homer".
  • "He hit the most home runs for any player in the 1960s." There are a number of different ways that this statement could be interpreted, and I'm not sure that it adds a whole lot of substance to the lead. I suggest removing it, particularly since some extra space will be needed to address the next issue.
  • I believe that the lead does not adequately summarize the Later life section. This section seems to be full of information that doesn't directly relate to baseball, whereas the lead section currently only mentions baseball-related factoids. At the very least, I think it would be appropriate to summarize the manner of his death at the end of the lead.
    I went ahead and added a paragraph on some later life stuff to the lead, and made the other changes. I think the home runs in the 60s is a nice touch, but it's probably not lead-worthy, so I'll find somewhere in the body to put it instead. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 02:56, 4 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Cool beans, thanks for that. I've switched the order of the last two lead paragraphs; it seemed odd not to have the paragraph describing his death at the end of the lead. Do you grok my jive, me hearty? --Cryptic C62 · Talk 00:14, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Ten-four. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 03:50, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Comments - on prose grounds, and it appears well-rounded. I'll jot some queries below and copyedit as I go (revert if I change meaning accidentally). Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:02, 4 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
During his 22-year baseball career, he played for the Washington Senators.. - the mention of the team renders the "baseball" redundant as it is implied. I think we can remove the adjective which is a tad repetitive...?
In 1965, he reached the World Series... - hmmm, I'll pay "The team reached." or "He played in...", but "He reached ..." sounds a little odd to my aussie ears...
The Kansas City Royals section seems a bit slim - is there any other info? Was everyone surprised he signed with the Royals? Was his old team annoyed? Did he have any interesting encounters that year palying his old team?
While still an active major leaguer, Killebrew converted to Mormonism, joining The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and never smoked or drank - why the need to mention his conversion twice? Why not just " While still an active major leaguer, Killebrew became a Mormon, and never smoked or drank"?

Otherwise looks good on prose grounds. Very keen on semicolons...Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:50, 4 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Fixed. I didn't find much on his Royals tenure aside from statistical notes in game logs, but I'll look a bit more for anything extra. Since the Twins released him, I don't think his joining another team was a surprise. He did homer against the Twins in his first appearance back against them, so I added that in. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 16:15, 4 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah that all helps. No other deal-breaker prose guffs remain so I am happy to green-light on prose grounds. Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:03, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - link check. No broken external links, no DAB-links. Earwig's tool shows no results (source check already done - see above). GermanJoe (talk) 08:15, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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