Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Freida Pinto/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Graham Beards via FACBot (talk) 22:48, 4 October 2015 [1].

Freida Pinto[edit]

Nominator(s): —Vensatry (ping) 17:40, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about an Indian actress who shot to fame with Slumdog Millionaire. I'm nominating it for FAC because I believe it's well-written and well-researched. After taking this article to GAN in April 2013, I opened a PR which was closed without receiving any substantial comments as some felt she has had a short career until then. After a brief phase, I started working on the article as it received a major face lift during this period. Suggestions, criticisms, in any form are welcome! —Vensatry (ping) 17:40, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Poorly written article. Stand out 'ok' to be GA(which it isn't). Not a FA. Thanks. Daan0001 (talk) 23:02, 13 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comprehensive review. Please quote some specific examples. —Vensatry (ping) 04:39, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comment In lieu of BLP main images, that image of Freida in the infobox is simply atrocious. Commons has much much better images that can actually be used for identification purpose rather than the current one. She is cross-eyed, her face is in the opposite direction of the light and the picture is in poor composition. —Indian:BIO [ ChitChat ] 07:22, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I respectfully disagree. The current image is a VI. —Vensatry (ping) 07:33, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The article does need to have better writing. For example, there are three issues with the second sentence: "Hailing from a Mangalorean Catholic family, she wanted to become an actress from a young age." First, the second part of the sentence does not follow from the first part. How does her being Catholic influence her idea to become an actress? Second, "hailing from" is colloquial and not encyclopedic language. Thirdly, it's a needless passive sentence. For clear writing, an active voice is generally preferred. That's just the second sentence, unfortunately I do not have time to review the entire article. Mattximus (talk) 17:12, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Mattximus: The article has had a thorough copyedit. It would be really nice if you could offer a full review sometime later. —Vensatry (ping) 19:35, 20 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from JM

It does strike me that the writing falls short of the standard expected at FAC. Here are a few of the issues which jump out at me:

  • "she worked as a model, a television presenter, and acted in amateur plays" She didn't work as an acted in amateur plays.
  • "Pinto continued modeling" It's not clear what the "start point" of the "continuation" is.
  • There's inconsistency as to whether you put speech marks around award names.
  • "she won the "Breakthrough Performance Award" at the Palm Springs International Film Festival and Screen Actors Guild Award for Outstanding Performance by a Cast in a Motion Picture" Grammatically ambiguous as to whether Screen ... Picture is another award or another awarder of the Breakthrough award. In addition, she was only one of the recipients- the prize was not her, but the cast.
  • "Despite criticised by" This doesn't make sense
  • "She is also known for voicing opinions about women empowerment." Do you mean "the empowerment of women" or "women's empowerment"? "women empowerment" sounds like a made up term.
  • "St. John's universal School" Why the lowercase u?
  • "When Sushmita Sen won the title of Miss Universe in 1994, Pinto recalled of having taken inspiration from her." At the time of the award she recalled being inspired by the award being given?
  • "joined the Elite Model Management" Why "the"?
  • "and continued to model for two-and-half years.[7] During this time, she was featured in several television and print advertisements endorsing products such as Wrigley's Chewing Gum, Škoda, Vodafone India, Airtel, Visa, eBay, and DeBeers.[5] She continued to model for four years" I'm struggling with this
  • "in runway shows and magazine covers including Femina and FNL." Clumsy. How about "in runway shows and magazines, appearing on the covers of Femina and FNL."
  • "In a 2015 interview with Daily Mirror," It would typically be referred to as "the Daily Mirror", or even "The Mirror"
  • Are FNL or Full Circle worth linking? Don't be scared of redlinks!
  • "Following a series of unsuccessful attempts" Of what?
  • "Pinto received a call from Danny Boyle in 2007 to play the female lead in his upcoming film Slumdog Millionaire, which was supposed to be shot in India.[17][10] After six months of extensive auditions, she managed to land the lead role" Is this chronological? "She managed" strikes me an non-neutral
  • The description of Slumdog Millionaire strikes me as a little overly laudatory. I appreciate that it was a successful and well-regarded film, but this could be presented in a more neutral way
  • "Set in the backdrop of war-ridden Jerusalem, she played" This doesn't work- the film was set, but she played.
  • "reviews, however, Pinto's performance received positive reviews" Repetition
  • Do you really not have a more reputable critic/newspaper to cite than an anonymous review in the East Bay Express? I'm sure that this isn't what happened, but readers may be led to believe that you've delved into the most obscure papers to find someone who said something nice about her!
  • "while The Independent wrote" This is unwarranted personification- you've got the critic's name- use it! There are a lot of other examples of this- it strikes me as a little informal for an encylopedia article.
  • "played by alongside Riz Ahmed" ??
  • "The film was universally acclaimed as it was nominated for the Best Film Award at the 55th BFI London Film Festival and Grand Prix at the 24th Tokyo International Film Festival" This is not a reasonable claim- the fact that it was nominated at these festivals does not imply that it was universally acclaimed
  • "However, MTV described the act as "one gloriously cinematic scene", while James Montgomery of the channel further added "Thanks to Pinto's wattage"." You've overcomplicated this to the extent that it's become slightly deceptive. It's not clear what is "thanks to Pinto's wattage", and your syntax makes it sound like there are two separate reviews. All of it is from Montgomery, who was writing for MTV.
  • On a more general note, I'm not convinced by the subsection titles in the acting section. They sound a little non-neutral, and "the future" will rapidly go out of date. Honestly, you could just remove them at this time.
  • You're inconsistent on whether you use "name ending in s-apostrophe-s" or "name ending in s-apostrophe" for possessives. I'd recommend the former, but both are acceptable. Anyway, choose one, stick with it!
    • Can you point out those? —Vensatry (ping) 17:54, 21 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • You have "of Bruno Mars's single" but "on Andy Serkis' Jungle Book: Origins". Josh Milburn (talk) 20:49, 21 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "in which she stars opposite Mickey Rourke" stars opposite implies (I think) that she's one of the two leads- is that the case?
  • "former publicist Rohan Antao" Do you mean her former publicist?
  • "who is six years her junior" So what?
    • This was publicised in the media when the two started dating each other. Further, Pinto claimed in an interview that her mother initially had reservations about their relationship because of the age factor. —Vensatry (ping) 19:33, 20 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The same year, she collaborated with UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon and World Bank President Jim Yong Kim for the Call to Action – Girl Rising campaign. The documentary film Girl Rising made by Academy Award nominee Richard E. Robbins, showcases the power of education in transforming girls' lives around the globe." This needs copyediting. I'm not quite sure what Pinto's relationship with this campaign/documentary are.
  • "on India's Daughter, a documentary based on the 2012 Delhi gang rape" Is it based on or about? Or perhaps it is in response to? It seems unusual for a documentary to be "based on" an event.
  • "Pinto garnered immense popularity" What's your source for this?
  • "was frequently included in the "Most Beautiful Women in the World" list" What list?
  • "spokesmodel" strikes me as a neologism
  • "A controversy arose when she appeared in a TV commercial promoting L'Oreal, as many thought it to be racial discrimination from countries that are possessive about fair skin. The commercial showcased Pinto in what many perceived to be a lighter skin tone due to make-up or editing." This needs to be reworked
  • The mention of The Mindy Project is apparently unsourced. It should probably be included in the career section.
  • Perhaps, for the sake of completeness, the filmography should include music video appearances.

I've not looked into the sourcing yet, but these comments will hopefully give you some bits to work on for now. Josh Milburn (talk) 13:44, 19 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@J Milburn: A majority of your concerns have been addressed. Agree with your views about SM, will try to trim down the praise. Thanks for your copy edits. —Vensatry (ping) 19:33, 20 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Please let me know when you are "finished" with my comments and I will try to find time to take another look through. Josh Milburn (talk) 23:12, 20 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Milburn: Think I'm done with all except the SM part. I'm unable to find out anything that is more particular to Pinto. —Vensatry (ping) 17:50, 22 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Milburn: Any update yet? —Vensatry (ping) 09:46, 2 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@J Milburn: Think I'm done with all except the SM part. I'm unable to find out anything that is more particular to Pinto. —Vensatry (ping) 06:36, 3 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'll try to find some time to take a look. Josh Milburn (talk) 09:25, 3 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Kailash[edit]

Lede
  • This section needs no sources per WP:LEAD.
    • Agree, but since I've not included the ref. in the infobox it should be fine. —Vensatry (ping) 17:23, 21 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why is the studio within quotes?
  • "Pinto is credited with breaking the stereotypical image of an Indian woman in foreign films" - will replacing "foreign" with "non-Indian" comply with WP:NPOV?
    • Some films of her's are Indian co-productions, so "non-Indian" would be wrong. What is the NPOV issue here? —Vensatry (ping) 17:23, 21 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Outside acting, she is" - Which would be a better option - "In addition to her acting career" or "Alongside her acting career"?
Early life
  • The date of birth can be kept here with the same source used in the lede section.
    • The DOB is already mentioned in the infobox and lead. So repeating it in the body adds little value. —Vensatry (ping) 17:23, 21 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "turned out" - sounds idiomatic, and hence unencyclopedic. Can be replaced with something more formal. Eg: "Pinto auditioned for numerous cinematic roles, including the part of Camille Montes in Marc Forster's Quantum of Solace (2008). However, all attempts turned out to be unsuccessful." Over here, you can write that her attempts were unsuccessful.
Acting career
  • "in his upcoming film Slumdog Millionaire, which was supposed to be shot in India" - his then upcoming film would be better as the film has already released.
  • "winning eight of the ten nominations, including major categories such as Best Picture, Best Director, and Best Adapted Screenplay" - everyone knows that these three categories are part of the Academy's Big Five, so the phrase "including major categories" seems redundant.
    • You're quite right, but it did not win the other two awards – Best Actor and Best Actress. —Vensatry (ping) 17:23, 21 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why is "Latika" quoted? I don't see the necessity.
  • "Woody Allen's comedy-drama film You Will Meet a Tall Dark Stranger" - WP:SEAOFBLUE. You can put "film" outside the link.
  • "She played the central character in her next venture Miral, a biographical film based on a novel by Rula Jebreal" - what is the name of the novel?
  • "Pinto's next release was the science fiction film Rise of the Planet of the Apes (2011), a reboot of the Planet of the Apes series ... but the performance of the lead actors were criticised. A review from Slant Magazine stated that the lead characters, played by Franco and Pinto, are "stand-ins for moral platitudes"." - How can a single review determine her overall performance? Either an additional review can be added, or remove the sentence "the performance of the lead actors were criticised", or merge it with Slant's review. In fact, if this film was her first release of 2011, it can come under "2011–present".
  • "Pinto's second release of 2011 was Michael Winterbottom's British drama film Trishna. She played the titular character in the film" - Merge the sentences, and remove "film".
  • "Unlike some of Pinto's previous films, Trishna gained positive response from critics. The film was universally acclaimed and was nominated for the Best Film Award at the 55th BFI London Film Festival and Grand Prix at the 24th Tokyo International Film Festival." I think you can remove "universally acclaimed", as the film's Rotten Tomatoes score is 65%, based on 56 positive reviews and 30 negative reviews. I don't think that is anywhere near "universal acclaim".
    • A source is there for the 'universal acclaim' part. Do we go by review aggregators to decide on the extent to which a film was acclaimed. Since I'm not an expert in this regard, I'd like to have a second opinion. —Vensatry (ping) 17:23, 21 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The same year, she played "Princess Lailah" in the 1930s-set period drama film Day of the Falcon" - Again, why is the name quoted? And I think a better sentence would be "The same year, she played Princess Laihah in Day of the Falcon, a period drama set in the 1930s."
  • "Pinto's final release of 2011 was the fantasy-action-drama film Immortals" - I think "drama" can be removed. Always keep the genre limit to two.
  • "As of September 2015, Pinto is working on Andy Serkis' Jungle Book: Origins, a live action adventure fantasy film based on Rudyard Kipling's The Jungle Book." - When is it scheduled to release?
    • Not sure about the release date. We don't document about future events. 17:23, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

That's it for now. I'll come with more if necessary. Kailash29792 (talk) 05:47, 21 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Kailash29792: Thanks for the comments. Hopefully, I've fixed all of them. —Vensatry (ping) 17:50, 22 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Jungle Book Origins is scheduled for 2017. You can add this claim with a source. Otherwise, the article looks good, and has my support. Kailash29792 (talk) 17:38, 24 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Kailash29792: Thanks for the review. I'm slightly against adding scheduled dates because these films initially would be screened at some film festivals. After a year or two, they will be theatrically released. —Vensatry (ping) 17:46, 24 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Cirt[edit]

  • Comment (having stumbled here from my FAC). There's a lot of sentences that use too much commas, and sometimes semicolons, but overall commas, and I'd suggest, at least even during this FAC process, nominating the article for WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors review, and maybe, if it doesn't work out this time, also going for a Peer Review, and, during that process, trying to find, some good quality copy editors, who can go through the article, to improve its sentence structure, with an eye for making the writing quality succinct, and also, a bit more concise. Good luck, — Cirt (talk) 01:20, 30 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Cirt: Agree with you on the semi-colon thing. Since the guild seems inactive at the moment, I myself will try to c/e the article. Thanks, —Vensatry (ping) 09:46, 2 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • Okay, good luck. But an outside viewpoint as copyeditor is better than doing it yourself. Suggest putting this article up at the list for WP:GOCE requests. And also going for Peer Review as next step if it doesn't work out here during this process. And during the peer review, posting to all relevant WikiProject talk pages with a neutrally worded notice saying you are asking for copyeditor help. You can even try asking a non-Wikipedian friend who is very good with professional English to read over the article. Hope these suggestions are helpful, — Cirt (talk) 18:02, 2 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
        • FYI, J Milburn, a native speaker of English, did some copy-edits early on as a part of his review. —Vensatry (ping) 06:31, 3 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - needs eyes and a thourough copyedit. Parts are balanced, but some others read like snippits from favorable promotional press. The third lead paragraph is espically so, opening with "Despite being criticised", and ending with a littany of charitable, "humanitarian" efforts. The writing is dull and repeditaive, but not so much that an hour or two hard work could not sort out.

Random:

  • "Pinto actively participated in plays and amateur theatre while attending college.[9]" - actively?
  • you could just say "participated in..." Ceoil (talk) 09:19, 3 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "she joined Elite Model Management, a modeling agency" - needless clarification
    • "she joined Elite Model Management, a modeling agency"
  • "She studied acting at a studio run by Barry John, whom she considers her mentor.[13][14]" - breathless
  • "After a period of six months, she landed the lead role.[16]" - drop "a period of"
  • In response, Pinto claimed that she is unable to find roles that suit her in Bollywood while stating that she enjoys watching Bollywood films and is keen to work in the industry in future. - sounds like press release stuff
  • Outside of the lead, those are the sentences I read. I appreciate the amount of effort gone in here, and its certainly comprehensive enough, but needs work yet. Vensatry I will keep an eye and look forward to outside help. Ceoil (talk) 08:28, 3 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Ceoil: A native speaker of the language might want to do a copy-edit as you say. The issue is finding someone to do that. Nevertheless, I'd requested a user to copy-edit the article. Not sure if they'll find time for this one though. Another problem, outside the prose, is she's had a relatively short career. So finding sources for critical commentary/analysis on her acting style, and roles played by her thus far is nearly impossible. Since you've read the article in bits-and-parts, can you please guide me in improving the prose? Time shouldn't be a constraint. —Vensatry (ping) 08:57, 3 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Vensatry, as I say this was a scan, and there were issues throughout. I appreciate what you are saying, and am reading since I posed. The difficulty for non-native speakers/writes is of course huge, and I do commend that you have brough it this far - the level of coverage and citation is to your credit. Will post back later. Ceoil (talk) 09:12, 3 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Given recent chat on my talk, I'm not sure Vensatry understands the difference between promo and bio and I am doubtful this ARTICLE will be allowed to be repaired; my oppose stands. Ceoil (talk) 15:37, 3 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note to the delegates – Sorry to say, but the article was butchered by some bad-faith editors, albeit under the cover of making "improvements". I do not think the article has really benefited from the recent copy-edits. Requesting withdrawal of the candidate. Thanks, —Vensatry (ping) 15:54, 3 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Graham Beards, Ian Rose, and Laser brain: Requesting to archive this nom. —Vensatry (ping) 05:29, 4 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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