Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Eusèbe Jaojoby/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by GrahamColm 10:21, 3 November 2012 [1].

Eusèbe Jaojoby[edit]

Eusèbe Jaojoby (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Lemurbaby (talk) 04:21, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Discover Jaojoby, the "King of Salegy" music from Madagascar. Inspired like many of his young Malagasy peers by the American funk and soul stars of the 60s and 70s, he experimented with fusion of the genres with the traditional instrumentation, rhythms and vocals of trance singing from rural northern Madagascar. In doing so, Jaojoby became a main originator of the modern form of the ancient salegy musical genre and popularized it nationally and internationally. Salegy has since become emblematic of the island, and Jaojoby has gone on to become its undisputed king, touring internationally and producing albums for over 30 years. Lemurbaby (talk) 04:21, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments On a first scan through it looks pretty good :) some comments:

  • The lead is very short for the size of the article, and does not appear to summarise the article completely.
  • Thanks - I"ll take another look at that. Lemurbaby (talk) 05:54, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • They are both primary sources where secondary sources were not available. The Olympia source is the official website set up for his concert at the Olympia in Paris (kind of like a Carnegie Hall concert, a major achievement for musicians performing in France), and the other is the actual fundraising website set up by fans, as referenced in the narrative. Lemurbaby (talk) 05:54, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • A lot of reliance on RFI music for the source material - you might need to look into the diversity of sources.

More later --Errant (chat!) 07:59, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • There is lots of good information in the RFI source. It looks especially heavily cited because of how I break up information in the narrative. If I clustered together all the RFI info and followed it by one cite rather than inserting info from different sources into one sentence and putting the cite after each related piece of information, the RFI source would look less cited but the same amount of info from the source would be there. So don't let the numbers fool you. And I can confirm that I've dredged out every quality source on this artist available on the net or in major publications available on google books. Anything more would probably have to come from archival research in Madagascar itself, not doable at the moment. That said, I've still included the most important aspects of his life and career. Lemurbaby (talk) 05:54, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments by Maky:

  • "continued to light up dance floors and airwaves across the island" – This wording doesn't sound very encyclopedic to me. Hopefully I'm not being hypocritical...
  • It was bugging me too. I changed it to "received regular airplay". Lemurbaby (talk) 07:00, 13 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • As with the GAN I just finished reviewing, I don't think you should red-link the album names in the table until you can blue-link some of them.
  • I'm not sure about all the audio samples in the article. Personally, I like it. But with the anime article you're reviewing, I've learned that fair-use content must be very limited, and I'm not sure if you can defend the inclusion of more than one sample. Maybe someone else who is more versed on fair-use can chime in.
  • I chose these samples because one shows his very early sound (1970s), another shows his modern sound (1990s), and the other is a sample of malesa, a style he also pioneered. It's tough to pick between them but if I had to lose one I'd take out the malesa track, since it could be moved to the salegy article as a sub-genre (although that one also has quite a few non-free samples...). If I could keep only one, it would be the modern salegy track. I'll take out the malesa for now and let others weigh in. Lemurbaby (talk) 07:00, 13 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Personally, I see nothing wrong with samples. If anything, it helps advertise the product. It's more of a concern because of the people on Wiki who are anti-fair-use. – Maky « talk » 10:43, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • The lead seems a little brief given all that's written about his history and style.

Otherwise, everything looks pretty good. Good work. – Maky « talk » 01:53, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Cassianto
Lead section
  • "He is considered one of the originators of the modern salegy style that emerged in the 1970s and has been credited with transforming the genre from an obscure regional musical tradition into one of international popularity. He is also considered the originator of two genre offshoots, malesa and baoenjy."
Although it's the lead, I think we should still say who considers him to be so good.
  • It's cited in the body, which the lead summarizes. Since this is a general fact rather than an opinion statement, I'm adding a couple more sources to this in the body.Lemurbaby (talk) 07:12, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Jaojoby has been called the most popular singer" - Again, by who?
  • The year range (1998-1999) - needs have its hyphen deleted in favour of an endash.
  • Do you know the coding for an endash? The coding I used to use has been replaced by bots in other articles by the actual endash itself, but I don't know how to put that into my articles without using the old coding. Lemurbaby (talk) 05:31, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Copy and past this – for the date range dash.
  • Strange use of "full-length album" here. As opposed to what, half the length album?
  • Instead of the 45 rpm albums he had released prior to that point. Lemurbaby (talk) 05:31, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • It took an explanation for me to understand that.
Early years
  • "He began to perform at nightclubs..." at nightclubs or in nightclubs? Also, "whenever the opportunity presented itself" seems a bit lazy. Maybe lose that in favour of intermittantly or occasionally.
  • "At nightclubs" gets more results according to Google, so I lean toward keeping it as-is. Changing the current wording to "intermittantly" or "occasionally" loses a part of the meaning (his eagerness to seize every opportunity), and it more accurately reflects what the source material says, so I'd prefer not to make changes here either. Lemurbaby (talk) 05:31, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I just think "in" flows better than "at". For example, a choirboy sings in church, not at church. Singing at nightclubs conjures up an image of someone facing a nightclub and singing at it. -- CassiantoTalk 05:53, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...to the young man's parents" -- "to the young singer's parents" sounds better IMO.
  • "Although no single individual can be credited with creating the modern salegy genre, Jaojoby ranks among the earliest originators of the nascent musical style." - This is a bold claim and could do with a citation all by itself. Who ranks him?
  • This is a general fact, so I'll provide more sources in the body. Lemurbaby (talk) 07:12, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...before accepting an offer to work for the national radio as a journalist at the end of 1980" - is that the station's name, national radio? If not then maybe replace "the national radio" with "Antananarivo's national radio station".
  • I'll use "the national radio station" as it wasn't limited to Antananarivo. Lemurbaby (talk) 05:31, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, I think it was the missing "station" which I think this needed.--CassiantoTalk 05:53, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Before the song had finished, the owner offered Jaojoby a contract..." What, he stopped him mid-song?
  • "For the next three years the young man..." - I would omit calling him "young man". His surname would be preferable.
King of Salegy
  • "The 1992 release of Jaojoby's first full-length album, titled Salegy!"- Full-length album again.
  • "professional-quality" - or just professional?
  • Professional quality, because the previous album was produced by professionals, but using a local studio with less than the highest quality equipment. A small nuance but worth capturing. Lemurbaby (talk) 05:31, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Jaojoby's success and popularity attained new heights with the 1998 release of E! Tiako." - "Jaojoby's success and popularity attained new heights in 1998 with the release of E! Tiako."
  • "semi-live conditions" What are these?
  • That's the term used in the source to describe the fact that it was performed "live" before an audience of his friends only, as stated in the article. I suspect it may be technical, music industry terminology. Lemurbaby (talk) 05:31, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The March 2008 release of Donnant, Donnant celebrated..." - Is there a comma between the Donnant title. If so, it's mention in the table below is missing this punctuation.
  • Good catch. It seems to vary depending on the sources. I've decided to go with a hyphen between both instances, since that matches the French expression. Lemurbaby (talk) 05:31, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Style and legacy
  • "Jaojoby has been called the most popular singer in Madagascar and the Indian Ocean islands and is widely referred to as the "King of Salegy"." - by who and who?
  • For the first I will identify the source, but for the latter as it's a general fact I will provide several more cites. Lemurbaby (talk) 07:12, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "His voice has been described as a "supple tenor"[4] that is "clear, powerful and energetic... his trademark, which makes him stand out in the Madagascan musical panorama"." Again, by who?
  • It makes sense to me to cite the latter, but providing the name of the person that indicated his vocal range seems unnecessary as it's mainly objective (the "supple" part being subjective). Breaking it up makes for what, in my opinion, would be clunky prose. It would look something like this: The artist sings in the tenor range. His voice has been described by X as "supple"[4] and Y considered "clear....". See my general comments on citing the names of reviewers below.Lemurbaby (talk) 05:31, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep in mind that statements are not "weasel words" when they are properly cited. "Views which are properly attributed to a reliable source may use similar expressions if they accurately represent the opinions of the source." When appropriate, I'll provide more sources to illustrate that these are not my opinions, or the opinions of particular reviewers/writers, but general facts that are being described. Otherwise, if they really are just the opinion of the writer, I'll identify the source of that opinion. Lemurbaby (talk) 07:18, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Kept in mind thanks. The cite is not the problem here, it's the non-attribution within the text where the critical quote is. Maybe I'm wrong. A lot of FA's adopt this attribution before the text as you state below. Otherwise it leads the reader to ask "I wonder who said that?" etc, and then we click away to the cite to find out who it was who said it. No hurries for this so please don't feel pressured :-) -- CassiantoTalk 15:47, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've made the changes - what do you think? Lemurbaby (talk) 19:23, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes much better. Per Sarastro1, avoid the cite clutter for this paragraph. Sorry, I was reviewing from the edit screen so this was not obvious to me at the time. -- CassiantoTalk 22:23, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Family and personal life
  • "lineup" or "line-up"
  • "Jaojoby and his family were involved in a road accident that left the singer severely injured. Four broken ribs, lung damage and a fractured pelvis" - perhaps say "He suffered four broken ribs, lung damage and a fractured pelvis"
  • "Fans of the singer organized through mail and internet communication" - organized what?

CassiantoTalk 09:49, 13 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks, Cassianto, for taking the time to provide this detailed review. Your comments help to polish this article. Your remarks on the need to cite who has made certain statements about Jaojoby prompted me to look at other FA articles of international musicians as models. Similar claims and descriptions in these articles were handled in a variety of ways within each article. In some instances only the sources were provided as citations (the way I have it now), in others the publication was mentioned, and in still others the name of the reviewer (often in conjunction with the publication) was mentioned. I'll apply the same logic here and look forward to your feedback on the changes. Lemurbaby (talk) 06:24, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - per my comments. A nice little article, congratulations. -- CassiantoTalk 07:39, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments: Overall, this looks good. Although I know literally nothing about the man or his music, I followed this article easily, and it seems comprehensive enough. My main nit-picks are over prose; nothing major, I think the article just needs a last little bit of polishing here and there. The only other point I noticed is that the article is very positive about Jaojoby. Has there ever been any criticism of him, or are there any critics who do not like him? In fact, criticism generally is a little light in the article; what do critics say about him? Also, any information on sales? Sarastro1 (talk) 20:51, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • There has been almost no criticism of him in the press, as he's something of a national institution and hero. Only one album met less that universal acclaim, and that was the only one what wasn't done in the salegy style (Donnant-Donnant). I'll try to find some review that states as much. Lemurbaby (talk) 21:27, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

  • To echo Cassianto, the phrasing of the first paragraph of the lead is a little weak; using the passive voice in ways such as "is considered" and "have been attributed" sounds vague and weakens the prose slightly. Given that there is no doubt that the information is correct, a simple rephrasing such as "critics consider…" or adding a name (e.g. X describes him as…) would easily solve this.
  • The challenge is he is viewed this way by critics, musicians, fans... there isn't any group or particular writer who disputes this. So it doesn't strike me as accurate to provide a name or single out one group when the reality is he is all but universally viewed this way. Do you recommend I use "Critics consider..." regardless, in the interest of keeping this simple? Lemurbaby (talk) 21:27, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • My personal preference would be to use "Critics consider..." but I appreciate that not everyone likes this. In my view, it just makes it clearer who is saying it, as it could refer to fans, journalists, critics, or anyone really. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:03, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • All right, since this is what's supported later in the text, I've made that change. Lemurbaby (talk) 14:02, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Inspired by the American soul and funk musicians of the 1960s, in 1972 Jaojoby began singing with bands in the northern coastal town of Diego-Suarez that were experimentally blending these sounds and modern rock instrumentation with the Malagasy musical traditions of the region": This is a long sentence and probably should be split. It may also require rephrasing of "these sounds" as that is a little vague.
  • "After a short hiatus from singing in the 1980s while pursuing a career in journalism…": Maybe better as "After a short break in the 1980s to pursue a career in journalism, Jaojoby resumed his musical career and rose to national prominence in 1988 with "Samy Mandeha Samy Mitady".
  • "He then reoriented his career toward music": A little awkward. Maybe "He decided to concentrate on music; he recorded his first full-length album in 1992 and became a professional musician"? [I think full-time is implied by professional].
  • In this case, given that he had already recorded, toured and achieved prominence without being a full-time musician, I think it's an important distinction to make. I prefer to keep the original wording here. Lemurbaby (talk) 21:27, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "who perform in the band with him": Maybe "with whom he performs in the band"?
  • This puts the emphasis on the wife and children, as if he is the one joining them and not vice-versa. I'd prefer to keep the original wording in this case as well. Lemurbaby (talk) 21:27, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • OK, but I personally feel that the phrasing is a little awkward. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:03, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Noted. I'm open to changing it if a better phrasing is found. Lemurbaby (talk) 14:02, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Early years

  • "led him to recognize his vocal talent": Seems slightly unusual; usually someone else would "recognize his vocal talent" rather than him do so himself. Maybe "made him realize that he possessed vocal talent"? Or maybe realise that he loved music?
  • "who in the 1960s became the first to use an electric guitar to perform coastal Malagasy musical styles": Became the first what?
  • "and managed to win over the many other contestants despite singing [although he sang] unaccompanied and without a microphone"
  • This edit is an improvement - thank you Lemurbaby (talk) 21:27, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Huh, this and the next must not have saved properly. It's been changed now, although I kept "and" (it stresses both distinct "winning factors" more clearly, in my opinion). Lemurbaby (talk) 14:02, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and performing at night for the next several years"
  • "Although no single individual can be credited with creating the modern salegy genre, Jaojoby ranks among the earliest originators of the nascent musical style.": Perhaps this should be attributed in the text (e.g. "according to X…") or it looks like editorial voice, and that this is the opinion of wikipedia!
  • I hope now this has been sorted out by providing more references that explicitly make this point. Lemurbaby (talk) 21:27, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't see any changes here either. Also, my point is not about the references, and I'm sure the references are fine. My issue is with the text. If we say "Although no single individual can be credited with creating the modern salegy genre, Jaojoby ranks among the earliest originators of the nascent musical style", I'm sure that is correct and can be attributed to several critics. But the reader who looks at this (and who may not follow the references) may believe that it is wikipedia giving this as an editorial opinion. This is why we need in-text attribution so that the reader knows whose opinion this is without following the link. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:03, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I struggle with the justification for needing to provide attribution for a fact beyond the citation provided. It's not an opinion ("J- is the best musician..."), but a fact, like saying he performs salegy music. Do we need to provide a name of a critic who states that fact too? Why would I include the name of one critic as opposed to another to prove that he performs salegy, when so many sources will repeat this same fact? Why should one critic be credited with the statement, as if s/he was an original contributor of this information, when any number of other sources confirm it (including sources that don't have authors)? How much does it add to spell out that X source (cited) states XYZ fact? "According to X Magazine, Jaojoby plays salegy music." Why does this cited fact need to be attributed when none of the other cited facts are attributed? Lemurbaby (talk) 14:02, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • We'll agree to disagree on this one, and it is not nearly enough to hold up this FAC any further. Sarastro1 (talk) 16:44, 27 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "another regional band that was less well-established but more willing to take risks": Maybe "a less well-established regional band more willing to take risks"?
  • That alternative wording is a little tighter but but it feels a little unnatural. I'll retain the original wording here. Lemurbaby (talk) 21:27, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The band toured for the next four years to increasing success": Maybe with increasing success. Also, how is this success measured? Critical acclaim? Attendance at performances? Number of performances?
  • Unfortunately the source doesn't provide that detail. Lemurbaby (talk) 21:27, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • OK, but still not sure about "to increasing success". Sarastro1 (talk) 22:03, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "A chance encounter between Jaojoby and a Hilton hotel manager at a bus stop in Antananarivo the following year produced an invitation to audition that evening at the hotel's Papillon bar": Why did this encounter lead to the audition? Did they know each other, or did Jaojoby mention that he was a singer?
  • The source doesn't provide this detail either. Lemurbaby (talk) 21:27, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • This may be a slight problem as it is an obvious question for the reader to ask "why"? Assuming that the source can be trusted, maybe rephrase to "A manager of a Hilton hotel invited Jaojoby to audition that evening..." as this removes the ambiguous meeting and does not leave hanging the question of what actually happened in the bar. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:03, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've rephrased it in a way that I hope is clearer, without going beyond the source information. Lemurbaby (talk) 14:02, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

King of Salegy

  • "where he recruited former bandmates from Los Matadores and Les Players to form an eponymous band": Not quite clear to whom the eponymous band refers! Maybe just name the band.
  • "The excitement of this rise to international celebrity was offset in 1995 by the death of the band's original drummer, Jean-Claude Djaonarana, who had first performed with Jaojoby as a member of Los Matadores.": Excitement seems an odd word unless it is directly quoting Jaojoby. And maybe a little POV?
  • "In the wake of its success, Jaojoby performed to an audience of 50,000 partisans of candidate Marc Ravalomanana less than a month before the deeply divisive 2001 presidential elections." Was he supporting this candidate explicitly by performing to these people? Was he politically involved? And maybe explain in a brief sentence why the election was divisive; most readers will not know, and this leaves us hanging slightly.

Style and legacy

  • "The roots of Jaojoby's musical style begin with his childhood exposure to the Western-Malagasy syncretism of local church hymns…": Maybe "began with"
  • "As a singer with Los Matadores, Jaojoby would occasionally fill the instrumental breaks of rhythm and blues covers…" Better to say "…Jaojoby occasionally filled…"
  • "to the jubilation of the young Malagasy listeners gathered outside the club's doors": Not sure jubilation is the correct word here, unless it made them very excited. Appreciation or acclaim may work better.
  • The way the source describes it, jubilation is accurate - celebration, cheering, dancing. Lemurbaby (talk) 21:27, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd still prefer something more neutral, but would not insist on it. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:03, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The adaptation of the salegy rhythm to the modern drum kit was invented by Jean Claude Djaonarana, drummer of Los Matadores, who would go on to rejoin Jaojoby's band from 1988 until his death in 1995." Maybe "The salegy rhythm was adapted to the modern drum kit by Jean Claude Djaonarana, drummer of Los Matadores, who later rejoined Jaojoby's band from 1988 until his death in 1995."
  • Good rephrasing - I've used your wording. Lemurbaby (talk) 21:27, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He is widely referred to as the "King of Salegy" by his fans and the press.[1][5][10][11][14]": Five refs seems excessive. It may be better to find a source which explicitly says "he is widely known as the king of salegy", or this becomes (slightly) WP:SYNTHESIS. The other way around is to say "Many critics, refer to him as the "King of Salegy" and use WP:CITEBUNDLE to say who says what.
  • Not sure this solves the problem of possible synthesis: do the sources explicitly say that he is widely referred to, or are you quoting several sources which call him this? If the latter, using the citebundle may be a better way, and then say "many critics say..." Sarastro1 (talk) 22:03, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • The sources say he is widely referred to or widely known as the king of salegy. Lemurbaby (talk) 14:02, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In addition to the creativity of his compositions and willingness to experiment, the quality of Jaojoby's voice, characterized as a "supple tenor" by Zomaré magazine, helped to distinguish the artist from his peers": Again, this needs in-text citation or it looks like editorialising by wikipedia.
  • The reference for the whole sentence is Zomare magazine, which is cited in-text; an author name is not provided. Lemurbaby (talk) 21:27, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • But this looks like the article is judging him. Maybe move things around to say "Zomare magazine suggests that, in addition to the creativity of his compositions and willingness to experiment, the quality of Jaojoby's voice, which the magazine characterizes as a "supple tenor", helped to distinguish the artist from his peers" Sarastro1 (talk) 22:03, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Jaojoby has been credited with popularizing the salegy genre both within Madagascar and on the international music scene.": Credited by who? I think we need a name here (i.e. "According to X, Jaojoby popularised the salegy genre…")
  • This was also raised above. I looked at other FA level musician articles and in any given article there are a variety of ways to attribute this kind of information. When it's a general fact and not one person's opinion, as is the case here, then citing one or two sources that make the same statement seems to be adequate, and would be more appropriate in my view than providing a name, which implies that the individual or source cited is the only one holding this view (i.e. that it's a personal view, not a universal perception or belief). Lemurbaby (talk) 21:27, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • OK, but see above about "critics say...". Sarastro1 (talk) 22:03, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The popularity of two derivative versions of salegy – malessa and baoenjy – have likewise been attributed to him.": And again, needs attribution in text. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:51, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • OK, but see above about "critics say...". Sarastro1 (talk) 22:03, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

General: Otherwise looks good, but is there any other information on:

  • Critical opinion?
  • There really isn't any out there that I can find. He's too much of a national hero for the national press to critique him, evidently (also, critique is culturally inappropriate). The international press only reports on those albums deemed internationally appealing enough to be distributed overseas, so it's unsurprising that there are no negative critiques of albums selected for distribution on the basis of their anticipated popularity with foreign audiences. Lemurbaby (talk) 22:09, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sales?
  • This kind of data isn't tracked in Madagascar. The market for most international artists in Western countries is too small to track, unless it's the occasional rare artist that crosses over into the mainstream. Lemurbaby (talk) 22:09, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not really, no - none that I can find. Lemurbaby (talk) 22:09, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support: With the qualification that I have not checked sources and that I am completely unfamiliar with this topic, I'm happy to support. There are one or two bits of prose which jar a little for me, but that may just be stylistic preferences, and nothing major. A little further polish may help, but I think this article meets the criteria. Sarastro1 (talk) 16:44, 27 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Media review - not sure either sound sample is adequately supported at present. The FUR claims the article "specifically discusses the song from which this sample was taken" - it doesn't specifically do so. You could probably justify one sample as representative of his sound and style, but you'd need to update the FUR to reflect that, and two would be a stretch. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:09, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • I've updated the justifications. For the most popular artist across the Indian Ocean islands whose career has spanned 40 years, I would argue that two samples are justifiable. His sound has changed significantly with the maturation of the salegy genre from the time when he first helped develop it to the time when it became mainstream and professionally produced. The two samples I think serve as a useful contrast, as explained in the fair use rationales. Lemurbaby (talk) 22:04, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from DavidCane

General
  • I think it might be useful to state somewhere in the article what his primary language for singing is - presumably it is Malagasy. It says that on Donnant-Donnant he sings in French, Malagasy, Creole and English, is that his usual approach?
  • I've now made it clear that his cover songs were in French and English, but the salegy is generally in Malagasy. Lemurbaby (talk) 14:02, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Early years
  • What are "coastal musical styles"?
  • Earlier in the article I linked to the Music of Madagascar article, which describes some of these. They're too numerous and diverse to explain in depth in the article. That would be like explaining what American musical styles are. Lemurbaby (talk) 23:21, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "managed to win over the many other contestants". Presumably, you mean he beat the other contestants, "win over" usually means to persuade or gain support.
  • "young singer's", usual to just use the subject's surname.
  • "word of Jaojoby's activities to Jaojoby's parents" is repetitive, and since he's not an "artist" or established "singer" yet I don't think it's right to use those either. "Him" is too vague (could be Jaojoby or his uncle) - "young singer" was the best compromise. Lemurbaby (talk) 14:02, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is/was the Saigonais nightclub in Diego-Suarez?
  • "among a number of northwestern bands". His home town Sambava is in the north-east, Diego-Suarez is at the northern tip of the country, are these north-western bands in Diego-Suarez or somewhere else?
  • Diego is considered the northernmost end of the northwest coast - I reworded the paragraph afterward in a way that hopefully helps to clarify the region in question. Lemurbaby (talk) 14:02, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Where were the Players based?
  • Is there a name for the band's manager?
  • The chronology needs a bit of clarification. He performed with the Players until 1979, then briefly with Kintara before moving to the capital. He then studied sociology for two years before becoming a journalist in 1980. It is just about possible to fit two years in between the move to the capital and the beginning of his journalism career, if one was at the very beginning of 1979 and the other at the very end of 1980, but this seems unlikely. Was there an overlap somewhere?
  • This is the chronology as it was described in the sources - it must have been that he left the Players early 1979, studied most of 1979 and 1980, then right at the end took the job. Lemurbaby (talk) 14:02, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Calling the country's primary university the "local university" seems a bit odd.
  • How did a chance meeting at a bus-stop lead to an audition?
  • Reworded - I hope it's clearer now. They just had a conversation at the bus stop, and during the conversation the manager asked him to audition. Lemurbaby (talk) 14:02, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the Rabeson family, popular jazz performers in their own right". "in their own right" seems a bit disparaging, why not "a popular jazz band."
  • "necessitating his relocation back to the northwest coast and what appeared to be an end to his musical career". It appeared to whom that it would be the end?
  • Changed to reflect the facts (he stopped his cabaret performances). Lemurbaby (talk) 14:02, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
King of Salegy
  • Was the eponymous band called simply "Eusèbe Jaojoby"? That rather seems to make the rest of the band just a backing group.
  • Clarified that the band was called "Jaojoby" - the rest of the band is indeed a backing group. Lemurbaby (talk) 14:02, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In the meantime, he continued to work as a press attaché for the Ministry of Transport, Meteorology and Tourism". "continued" does not seem right here as it has not been mentioned as his job previously. I suggest that this is change to just "he worked as a press attaché"
  • "two years prior" should be "two years previously"
  • During which period did he perform at the various festivals you listed. Was it in a single year or over a number of them?
  • Until the present. I've changed "performed" to "has performed" to reflect this. Lemurbaby (talk) 14:02, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "This rise to international celebrity was offset in 1995 by the death of the band's original drummer". "Offset" in this context would normally mean countered or neutralised the rise to international celebrity. Presumably Djaonarana's death did not do this.
  • Good catch - a previous edit resulted in this; I believe the rewording now more accurately reflects the source information. Lemurbaby (talk) 14:02, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Was it his performance at the rally or was it the presidential election that nearly lead to the secession of the coastal provinces? Presumably it was the latter, so I'm not sure why this needs to be mentioned.
  • Rephrased in a way I hope makes it clear that he tried using his music for political purposes but wound up regretting it and swore it off. Lemurbaby (talk) 14:02, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • You gave a translation for the fairly obvious Les Grands Maîtres du Salegy, but haven't given ones for Velono, Mila Anao or E! Tiako. Are these translatable? Donnant-Donnant could presumably be translated as Give and Take or something similar.
  • You're right, it seems best to translate all or none consistently. If I translate all, should I limit translations to album titles only, or include song titles as well? Lemurbaby (talk) 14:02, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Style and legacy
  • "Singing with Los Matadores provided the artist" In the context of the previous sentence which refers to Freddy Ranarison, this could be misconstrued to mean him rather than Jaojoby.
  • "Les Players" previously and later you call them "The Players".
  • Again, good eye - changed all to "The Players". Lemurbaby (talk) 14:02, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Mondomix and Zomaré should be italicised.
  • What are the characteristics of malessa and baoenjy music that make them distinct from salegy?
  • Malessa I know - it's slower, the "romantic" version; I'm not sure about Baoenjy. I haven't found references that would allow me to include that kind of information into the article for either one. Lemurbaby (talk) 14:02, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Discography
  • You discussed the musical styles on Donnant-Donnant in the King of Salegy section, specifically mentioning the track listing, but don't seem to have any details for it here. It also has a sub-title here not given earlier.
  • Removed Le Grand Bal (this was the title it was released under in France). The sources I have don't provide specifics on the track listing beyond what's mentioned in the article. Lemurbaby (talk) 14:02, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
References
  • Most of the references use MDY formatting, but reference 11 uses DMY formatting.

--DavidCane (talk) 23:54, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks for pointing this out - there are actually quite a few dates in the notes section that use DMY. That seems to be caused by the formatting in the templates. I don't know how to override that - can you or others explain to me how to do it so I can make the corrections? Lemurbaby (talk) 14:07, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I couldn't spot any inconsistent DMY dates among the citations except for #11, which I've corrected (just by writing as MDY, not through any black magic with template parameters!) Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:45, 3 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]


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