User talk:RedskinsFanHTTR

Edit warring on gender neutral pronouns

Wikipedia widely uses "they" as a singular pronoun to avoid "he or she". This is a well established practice for Wikipedia, especially for video games with characters of selectable gender. Continuously editing against established consensus could lead to being blocked. Please stop making your edit and use the article's talk page to discuss what you want done and why. If you're unable to change the consensus, you'll need to accept how it currently is. Please read WP:BRD for more information on how we make edits, how they get reverted, and then discuss the changes. Continuously making the same edit is edit warring. -- ferret (talk) 11:24, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

My response: "There is no Wikipedia consensus either for or against the singular they. Though some uses of they with a singular antecedent or referent are well established, some uses remain contentious, and style advice varies." Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Gender-neutral_language

According to the manual of style, this usage is controversial and there is not a consensus on this point. "He/she" is preferable, because it is biologically accurate and less controversial grammatically. You are trying to enforce an inaccurate and ungrammatical construction where no consensus exists. The "singular they" should be reserved for future instances where a video game protagonist is gender non-binary or where the character's gender is unclear. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RedskinsFanHTTR (talk • contribs)

In the same guideline, it warns that "dense" use of "he or she" is not preferred, which is exactly what happens with Prey's plot. --MASEM (t) 15:25, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Copying my reply to you from Masem's talk page: Within video game articles, and the widespread availability of characters with selectable gender, singular they IS widely accepted. Essentially, as the MOS says, some uses are well established, and this is one of them. You're making this change to one video game article when essentially every video game article falling into this category uses singular they. Please undo your edit, you are editing against the established practices for video game articles. Even after being warned about edit warring and the BRD process you made your edit again. -- ferret (talk) 15:26, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

August 2017

Your recent editing history at Prey (2017 video game) shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war. See BRD for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.

Being involved in an edit war can result in your being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.
Now that you've reverted three times I have to warn you about 3RR. -- ferret (talk) 15:28, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

My response: I've attempted a compromise by replacing the singular they / "he or she" with Morgan and Morgan's. This is in line with, for example, the Fallout 4 article where great pains are taken to avoid the singular they whenever possible (it is used sparingly, perhaps once or twice). This practice is far less controversial, and any insistence on the singular they would driven by ideology rather than readability, in my opinion.— Preceding unsigned comment added by RedskinsFanHTTR (talk • contribs) 17:19, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Sentences like "As Morgan makes Morgan's way through the station, Morgan comes across other survivors, whom Morgan may choose" are not improved like this. "Morgan morgan morgan" Please simply revert back to the original, since you've been informed that singular they is the accepted practice for video game plots featuring selectable gender. -- ferret (talk) 17:59, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

My response: I agree that the one sentence you pointed out was awkward and I have changed it to avoid the pronoun altogether. This rephrasing is better than the original, so I think the edit should stand.— Preceding unsigned comment added by RedskinsFanHTTR (talk • contribs) 18:12, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

That was only one example. This is an issue in multiple spots, include the lead sentence of the section. I've asked you to restore the original and use the article's talk page to discuss (and draft) the changes you want, per our guidelines at WP:BRD. I'm asking one more time that you self-revert. If you won't, then I'll consider reverting it myself to restore the much more easily read version that matches our typical standards, and if you continue to edit war we can go to dispute resolution or the EW notice board. -- ferret (talk) 18:17, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

My response: List other examples and they can be reworded. The singular they is an abuse of the English language that should be avoided at all costs. Fallout 4 is a good example of how rarely it should be used.— Preceding unsigned comment added by RedskinsFanHTTR (talk • contribs) 18:46, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

So could you confirm for me? You refuse to follow WP:BRD and discuss the changes you want, BEFORE making them? You've been reverted by three editors now and violated 3RR by making the same or similar changes repeatedly. -- ferret (talk) 19:11, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

My response: I'm sorry I am new to Wikipedia and it sounds like you would rather ban newcomers than engage with the substance of their arguments. Rather than simply revert the changes, I've suggested a different compromise three times. The first was "he or she" but you rejected that. The second was "Morgan" but you rejected that too. The third was rewording the synopsis to avoid the use of pronouns/Morgan altogether. Why are you so committed to the singular they? Do you think it represents a major civil rights victory for the transgender movement or something to pretend that a male or female character is gender nonbinary? I seriously don't understand this rabid and totalitarian demand to use this highly unnatural and universally rejected (outside of an obscure, isolated corner of Wikipedia) abuse of the English language. It's not "more readable" to the vast majority of English speakers internationally.— Preceding unsigned comment added by RedskinsFanHTTR (talk • contribs) 19:19, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

I've linked and explained policy and guidelines to you. Have you read any of them? I've very much tried to guide you on this to avoid any chance you get blocked. I've repeatedly asked you to discuss the changes BEFORE making them. When you continuously make edits when you are being reverted (By several editors), that is edit warring, which is against our policies. Singular they is an established practice on Wikipedia in many areas. The MOS makes it clear that while not uniform, in some areas it IS the accepted practice. When you bring up something like civil rights and transgender movements, it sounds like you're here to fight some perceived wrong, and that is also frowned on as well. Singular they has a long history of usage in English, and is hardly some rejected or unnatural usage. -- ferret (talk) 19:37, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

It is a deviant and extreme usage that falls well outside of the norm and one that the overwhelming majority of professional writers would find ridiculous. I'll stop editing and let you win this stupid battle, but you should know that you are being an enemy of the English language and proper English usage. Read this entire section before you embarrass yourself with claims that the singular they is widely accepted: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they#Usage_guidance_in_American_style_guides . It is frowned on and strongly discouraged by most usage guides and writers mentioned in that section.

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