User talk:Nuvolet/Archive 2

Roussillon

Hey, Jaume!

Sorry for not looking for the pronunciation I deleted; it just didn't sound right at all to me, especially with the word-initial stress and the use of /ɒ/ (I have /ɑ/ instead, and we tend to map "foreign As" onto that rather than "foreign Os") and so I felt certain that it wasn't genuine, but as you've shown me, I was wrong!

As for other possible US pronunciations of Roussillon, I don't know, and since we don't really talk about Rosselló, I doubt there would be (barring idiosyncratic pronunciations and affectations, that is).

Also, you're welcome, and thank you for your attention and participation here.

Espreon (talk) 04:10, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

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Iberian peninsula

Greetings. Would you like to tell how you determined the area of the Iberian peninsula to 0.1 km² precision? On the talk page I argued that even the previous 10 km² precision did not make sense, but I don't see you addressing the issue. If you have a reputable source for precise boundaries and area, please cite it. Thanks! --Jmk (talk) 23:39, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Suggestions

Hey man, does this help you?--Luizdl ^Talk 15:11, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes it does thanks! I was struggling a bit to finish the vowel section. The falamos / falámos example is very good. I think I would replace tecnologia and sozinho with other examples. Do you think we should transcribe hospital with an open o in BP? — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 16:34, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Hospital is not pronounced with open o in BP, except in northeast dialects, the same dialects where t and d are not affricated before i for example. In most BP dialects, open o and open e happens only in primary or secondary stress, in a former orthography most of these secondary stress were signalized with grave accent as in sozinho (sòzinho) and cafezinho (cafèzinho).--Luizdl ^Talk 21:44, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

2 things

Hi. Do you still want to merge voiceless bilabial approximant and voiceless dental approximant with, respectively, voiceless bilabial fricative and voiceless dental fricative?

Also, your input on Help_talk:IPA_for_Astur-Leonese#Further cleanup (or at least some things that you feel you could comment on) would be greatly appreciated. Peter238 (talk) 17:13, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Valencian retracted [sʲ]

Hello. A section of Catalan phonology reads as follows: In some Valencian dialects, /s/ and /ʃ/ are auditorily similar such that neutralization may occur in the future. That is the case of Northern Valencian where /ʃ/ is depalatalized to [jsʲ] or [js] as in caixa ('box'). Central Valencian words like mig ('half') and lleig ('ugly') have been transcribed with [ts] rather than the expected [tʃ], and Southern Valencian /tʃ/ "has been reported to undergo depalatalization without merging with [ts]". as in passets ('small steps') versus passeig ('promenade') That's no proof that [jsʲ], [js] and [ts] are actually retracted alveolar - unless there are sources that explicitly say so. Peter238 (talk) 17:34, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

This is the description of Josep Saborit, an excellent Valencian linguist. In Valencian: /ʂ/ correspon a una realització avançada o alveolaritzada del fonema /ʃ/ que apareix en alguns parlars, especialment en posició final: peix, baix. També és la realització palatalitzada de la /s/ prop de vocals palatals, com en lleis o Vicent. Cal assenyalar que l’Alfabet Fonètic Internacional (AFI) utilitza el símbol ʂ per a representar un so retroflex que no correspon ben bé a la realització alveolaritzada del fonema /ʃ/. Segons la simbologia de l’AFI, l’articulació avançada de /ʃ/ en alguns parlars valencians es representa amb la combinació de /s/ més una /j/ xicoteta: [sʲ]. Nosaltres havem optat pel símbol ʂ per qüestions de simplicitat en la representació i pel fet que, visualment, eixe símbol idealitza molt satisfactòriament la relació articulatòria entre els fonemes /s/ i /ʃ/. A més d’açò, considerem que el símbol [sʲ] pot induir el lector a interpretar erròniament una seqüència de dos sons en la representació. — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 17:45, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

That'll do, thanks. Peter238 (talk) 17:55, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

You're welcome, I will add the reference now. — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 18:31, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

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Quinzena de la Qualitat de 2015

El 28 de desembre comença la Gran Quinzena Anual de la Qualitat. Et convido a participar, i a apadrinar, si ho creus convenient, alguna categoria específica. Si creus que hi ha coses a millorar, encara estem a temps! --Panotxa (talk) 06:43, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

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Valencian nationalism

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Valencianism

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A bit of wiki pedagogy

I appreciate that you did clean up after your mistake move of Casa de la Enseñanza, Játiva to better translation / Xàtiva is the official name. Unfortunately the end result was that the early history of this article got deleted, leaving you wrongly credited as its creator. Mistake now corrected but please be more careful in future. — RHaworth (talk · contribs) 14:15, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

January 2016

Please do not remove maintenance templates from pages on Wikipedia, as you did to Catalans, without resolving the problem that the template refers to, or giving a valid reason for the removal in the edit summary. Your removal of this template does not appear constructive, and has been reverted. Thank you. Elizium23 (talk) 02:16, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

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Comment

You are acting as POV warrior including a binary symmetry it is not in the sources (as if País Valencià and Comunitat Valenciana were equal terms, which they are not, not in Catalan, not in Spanish and the important thing here: Not in English). Further discussion about this does not need to be in the lead but in the body of the entry (and ), pertaining mostly the catalan and spanish several terms to refers to this, not english. You are also mistaking what "official name" actually is (and what an informal term is), and are trying to cringefully force a point bringing <!- arguments -> which shamefully include political spam (caretas fuera):

The official name, "Valencian Community", was a neologism created by the Spanish Constitutional Court in order to suppress the will of the Valencian people (see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERDtrb6QNUk).

No comment.--Asqueladd (talk) 10:31, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

That's what the video says ;) — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 13:01, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

So you are fine with inserting url links to political propaganda in the lead of an entry about a region talking about "will of the people" to force a particular status in the entry? Whatever floats your (identitary) boat, mate, that is not the purpose of the entry.--Asqueladd (talk) 13:26, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

That's what our government says, the video url and the description could go in another section. — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 13:44, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

You've been reported

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Peter238 (talk) 21:20, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

Good but I haven't (really) insulted anybody — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 21:25, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

Report withdrawn, apology accepted, let's just move on. Peter238 (talk) 00:29, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Thanks Peter238, and don't worry about it - I will help you to create Murcian, but I'd like to solve the neutrality problem at IPA for Spanish, would you help me as well. You can also delete the talks if you don't anything I said, I was upset — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 00:48, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Erm... yeah, but I already told you I can't really create a guide for Murcian. I don't know enough about it.

I'm not sure what's the problem with neutrality of Help:IPA for Spanish.

I don't touch other's messages unless they're spam or they violate WP rules, because that itself is forbidden. Peter238 (talk) 00:51, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

No problem. The source we're talking about says that it describes "formal Spanish spoken in Castile (central Spain)" spoken by "educated middle-aged speakers", but you probably know that (you have the pdf). It's probably up to debate whether that's "Standard European" or not, but I'm not going there (I probably don't know enough about that). Peter238 (talk) 01:16, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

That says it all, it is also incomplete, as it lacks certain vowel centralisation (in certain speeches) and perhaps other punctual things. Los Fruittis use open allophones of /e/ and /o/, optional final /s/ devoicing, certain assimilations with variable/intermediate realizations, and many more phonetic features. — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 01:41, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Edit warring

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Valencian community. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.

Please be particularly aware that Wikipedia's policy on edit warring states:

1. Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made.
2. Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.

If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes; work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing. Lectonar (talk) 19:37, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

I've been collaborating, and we have a consensus; in my opinion he is the warrior plus he is not using the right nomenclature — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 20:30, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Continuing our discussion (from Talk:Valencian Community#Maps)

Accusing me of "being biased" when the only thing I did was providing you access to an article (actually, two articles, if you count the one before that) for which you'd otherwise have to pay 25 euro is... well... I won't even comment that. You might want to set your priorities straight.

Also, I've already explained you nearly two months ago why it seemed that I "tracked you" (I actually didn't), so I don't know why you're bringing that up either (it's not even forbidden).

About the Valencian thing: first of all, I did back off after you reverted me. Remember about WP:BOLD, and the fact that almost the entire section was (and still is) unsourced! The fact that you consider yourself a "professional speaker" of Valencian, is no proof that you know anything about its phonetics/phonology. This needs to be proven with actual citations, both inline citations inside the text and full citations on the bottom of the article. Not doing that and then asking me to explain myself to you after performing edits on Valencian is monumentally hypocritical. Peter238 (talk) 05:29, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

You're biased because you've manipulated things (like the Tuscan gorgia) and you're trying to distort Spanish with the usage of wrong "labels". With respect to the Valencian phonology, it is sourced, the only problem is I haven't added the pages yet because I've been working in other projects which are vital for my nation. Your opinion about how I'm directing this project is irrelevant to me so I won't comment on your last statement. Farewell! — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 07:07, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

PS you should take some relaxing herbs and stop threatening me and saying you're gonna report me, like you did to an anon

- "You're biased because you've manipulated things (like the Tuscan gorgia)" - you're being dishonest. I've already told you (twice! - here's the second time) that I didn't do that on purpose.

- "you're trying to distort Spanish with the usage of wrong "labels"." - that's another instance of dishonesty. The only time I mixed up "Standard European Spanish" and "Castilian Spanish" was exactly when I gave you that pdf that you otherwise would have to pay 25 euro for. I did that solely so that you could read it for free and maybe use it as a source for your future edits. You, instead, started going on and on how I misnamed it. Ludicrous... and ungrateful. You're clearly looking for anything, even the most ridiculously minor or irrelevant thing to accuse me of (I believe the term "kitchen sinking" fits that kind of behaviour fairly well). Not good.

- "With respect to the Valencian phonology, it is sourced, the only problem is I haven't added the pages yet because I've been working in other projects which are vital for my nation. Your opinion about how I'm directing this project is irrelevant to me so I won't comment on your last statement." - you mean "inline citations", not "pages"? There are almost no inline citations on Valencian#Phonology, so please read e.g. WP:INCITE ad WP:IC, neither of which are my opinion. Also, remember that Wikipedia:Anyone can edit the page Valencian, and that nobody owns it, including you. Peter238 (talk) 08:07, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

You know I'm not being dishonest, and I think you're just trying to excuse yourself.. And btw directing a project is not owning it! and also don't try to raise your voice in my talkpage again, it's very rude — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 09:13, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

So that's the level of debate we've reached. Your only arguments left are "no, I'm not" and "look - he's justifying himself". Congratulations. Peter238 (talk) 09:18, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Thats not what I said, and I just think your full of excuses. Tbh I can't be bothered with all this nonsense (with bad labels, corruption, authoritarianism, etc.) I'd prefer to speak about other stuff with more neutral people. I think as from now on I'll call you Pedro, el aprendiz diabólico, because you're interested in a diabolic nation and btw there's a votation now at the Basque Country, you might be interested to say your opinion de chulaco de tres al cuarto hehe — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 10:42, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Wanting to end this conversation is one thing we agree on. Goodbye. Peter238 (talk) 11:04, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

You have no right to reject anyone's vote. Peter238 (talk) 17:35, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

No but your vote doesn't match with your proposal and your previous messages as you contradict yourself; therefore you've nullified it — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 17:53, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

I would've fixed it if you had notified me. That's how people solve problems on this planet... Peter238 (talk) 18:28, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Misuse of templates

Hello J. Please do not place a protection template on any article as you did here. Only an admin can protect an article and you need to place a request at WP:RFPP if you want that done. Your cooperation in this will be appreciated. MarnetteD|Talk 22:45, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

Thank You

I don't know why people aren't willing to accept Catalunya as being part of Europe, but thank you for all you've done on the map page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alcibiades979 (talk • contribs) 22:52, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

You are welcome. And well, I think the main problem is it [the green map] doesn't have a zoom with the Iberian Peninsula. — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 16:17, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

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Vandalism on Valencian from over a year ago

Do not remove citation needed tags from articles. It is an extremely disruptive behavior. When asked to provide a citation, the WP:BURDEN to do so is always on you. Mr KEBAB (talk) 18:49, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

(Redacted) On Wikipedia, we care about what reputable sources say, not what languages do certain users speak. Mr KEBAB (talk) 18:57, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

Removing duplicate and triplicate tags which are already displayed on the top of an article is not classed as vandalism. So I would suggest to modify the statement of your accusations. — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 14:16, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

I don't disregard your level of Valencian since that's not my nature and you're very welcome to collaborate in the Catalan phonology project, however I'd suggest you to change your (proud/haughty) tone if you think you can't contribute with a positive attitude and a basic knowledge of the language (note your level in phonetics and linguistics in other languages might not be transferable to Catalan). — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 14:15, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

The tags were not duplicate/triplicate. It's essential to specify which sentences require citations for verification. To remove such tags can certainly be classified as vandalism.

Questioning the level of Valencian was not the point, the point was bringing it up at all. It's irrelevant. This is not about one's "knowledge of language" but following reputable sources. (Redacted)

Funnily enough, you made the very same mistake a few hours later in your message on Talk:Valencian. Mr KEBAB (talk) 20:29, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

They are triplicate because there is already a citation tag at the beginning of the article. On my previous message I didn't clarify which tags they meant, but I wasn't talking about the "inlane tags" you're mentioning but the headline labels you added on several sections, which IMO are repetions of the tag placed at the top, therefore your accusations are not veracious.

Regarding your last statement, I don't consider Wikipedia a personal blog, and I'm just trying to explain that I don't understand your issues with diacritics and why you keep bringing up a subject you already gave up in the past... — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 08:37, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

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Avoiding redirects

Why are you changing [[Valencian]] to [[Valencian language|Valencian]]? Per WP:NOTBROKEN, there is nothing wrong with the former. Sol505000 (talk) 17:22, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

It's the mains article name (without redirect), also the parameter in use on the infobox uses "language" (that's for towns).

In order to avoid confusion we should specify the difference between language and people, thus having Valencian and Valencians split into different articles should be corrected, as it's confusing. In my opinion Valencian should be a disambiguation page, like other other cases. — Nuvolet ^(dis-me)

Valencian should be turned into a disambiguation page first before you change those links. As of now, these changes are pointless and just add unnecessary text into the articles. Sol505000 (talk) 17:41, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

It's the main redirect in use and less ambiguous than just Valencian. As far as I can see there is ambiguity in the usage of the term alone, so the best is to specify what it refers to. There's also the aspect that some infoboxes needed reparation, and a better standardization, e.g. avoid valenciano, decide between alcalde or mayor, etc. — Nuvolet ^(dis-me)

Valencian language is the article that Valencian (which is a redirect) leads to, not a redirect. Because of that, there is no ambiguity as far as the English Wikipedia is concerned. Sol505000 (talk) 19:09, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

Yes, that's it, but there's ambiguity since Valencian also is meant to include the Valencian people and other related topics. The best to do here is the same than in similar articles, so there's 0 ambiguity and the links are properly used. — Nuvolet ^(dis-me)

I feel like we're going in circles here. [[Valencian]] is a proper way to link to Valencian language. Unless you convince other editors that Valencian should be turned into a disambiguation page, your changes are pointless. Sol505000 (talk) 05:27, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

It is ambiguous in certain cases where it may refer to another topic... Also, if we have a disambiguation page for Galician, Catalan, Portuguese, etc. I don't see any reason to not have one for Valencian. As I said, it may refer to the Valencian people, the language or the whole community or territory of Valencia (in the past or present) among other topics. I don't think your reversions are positive. Linking without a redirect is more straightforward than using possible ambiguous terms. — Nuvolet ^(dis-me)

@Sol505000: While I am also not a friend of "fixing" redirects (and even less of edit-warring about it), I am with @Nuvolet here. One main rationale of WP:NOTBROKEN is to avoid "wrong" links once a redirect changes to a better a target or is expanded to a full article. In the case of Valencian, it's quite the opposite: like all adjectives which are demonym and name of a language at the same time, it has all potential for a dab. So in this case, it is an improvement, even though at the current state just in relation to an eventuality. That said, it don't think it's worth an edit-war (nothing is) for either side. –Austronesier (talk) 11:00, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

Fair enough, I'll stop reverting him then. Nuvolet could've waited until the discussion he opened on Talk:Valencian yielded a result. The edit warring in the main article (that is, the redirect) doesn't look very good either. Sol505000 (talk) 11:32, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

Seconded. If the article was at Valencian and someone had been changing links to [[Valencian langauge|Valencian]], I would have found it undesirable in regard to WP:NOTBROKEN, but since the article is currently at Valencian language I don't see a problem in bypassing redirects.

That said, I see that Valencian language was boldly moved from Valencian last year at the request of a now-banned user, who had a history of opening spurious RMs and RfDs, so perhaps that bold move needs to be evaluated by the community first, especially given (as I understand it) the status of Valencian as a language is controversial. Nardog (talk) 11:48, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

Nuvolet, my mistake. I apologize. Try finding a bot that'll mass-re-revert my reverts, which have turned out to be incorrect. If that fails, I'll do it myself. Sol505000 (talk) 11:53, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

It's OK Sol505000, thanks for your offer. As I said, I was trying to be more specific (with the infobox language parameter and the current label of Valencian) and correct mistakes. I thought the moved from Valencian to Valencian language was ok with other users, I don't oppose it as it's another way to call the same language in a different area (than Catalan) that has its own tradition, and an owned standardized form. I can see Moldovan language is a similar case to Valencian. — Nuvolet ^(dis-me)

Valencian should be a disambiguation page. Indeed. Nuvolet, why don't you create it yourself? --Jotamar (talk) 20:49, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

@Jotamar: It's not as if Nuvolet hadn't tried[1]...there's three now who think it makes sense. –Austronesier (talk) 14:03, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I tried to create it myself but I was reverted by two users. They mentioned there was an error with the links, so I started correcting them until Sol505000 reverted me as well. So it's not that I haven't tried. Now I would like to get a consensus to proceed to have a disambiguation page for Valencian, in the same way that other similar cases. I appreciate the interest you've shown here and think we'll solve the problem soon. Thanks. — Nuvolet ^(dis-me)

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Speedy deletion nomination of Valencian (disambiguation)

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A tag has been placed on Valencian (disambiguation) requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G14 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is a disambiguation page which either

• disambiguates only one extant Wikipedia page and whose title ends in "(disambiguation)" (i.e., there is a primary topic);
• disambiguates zero extant Wikipedia pages, regardless of its title; or
• is an orphaned redirect with a title ending in "(disambiguation)" that does not target a disambiguation page or page that has a disambiguation-like function.

Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such pages may be deleted at any time. Please see the disambiguation page guidelines for more information.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the deleting administrator. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 15:42, 10 December 2021 (UTC)