User talk:Marjan Tomki SI

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I spotted this somewhere else and links on this template could still be usefull. I also intend to look into how this template is made. --Marjan Tomki SI (talk) 22:49, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Babel template problem

Languages

Problem

On my wiktionary user page Babel works, on User:Marjan_Tomki_SI currently does not.

On SI Wikipedia user page result is currently erratic:

It works anywhere on user talk page, and only when before all text on main user page.

Here I had let it stay even while it didn't work (because I might need to troubleshoot if I need to elaborate on computer languages I know), but recently did a bit of troubleshooting on si homepages, and intend to do that here also, and compare results.

Test and results

Part of the problem seem to be that {{[[Template:Babel|Babel]]|en-3|sl|hr-4|sr-4|it-1|de-1|fr-2}} somewhere got excess word Template in code here, which doesn't exist in Wiktionary where {{Babel|en-3|sl|la-2|hr-4|sr-4|bs-4|cnr-4|mk-1|cs-1|pl-1|ru-1|it-1|fr-2|de-1}} Babel works.
So there seem to be two things mixed in one: a link to documentation on Babel and actual use of it: {{Babel|en-3|sl|hr-4|sr-4|it-1|de-1|fr-2}}. Mixed together that doesn't work, when separated as here (before deactivation after succesful test) it does: the result was shown in section where template call was positioned.

Still not sure how it is done, and how it works, in detail; but {{Babel|en-3|sl|hr-4|sr-4|it-1|de-1|fr-2}} would execute, and show language proficiency info, where {{tl|Babel|en-3|sl|hr-4|sr-4|it-1|de-1|fr-2}} or {{tl|Babel}} would execute like this showing link to template documentation, for any template, in this case {{Babel}} (not executing or showing parameters even when those were set).

So {{tl|tl}} should, and does, show documentation about tl template like this: {{tl}}

Fix also works on main en userpage

So I am deactivating the test Babel template call here with noviki to remove unnecesary redundancy, but leave it to document the problem and solution.

I am not sure how exactly that two pieces of code got combiened, but suppose it got generated somehow, probably by a script that is now already fixed.

There is stil a different result in sl wikipedia, where babel seem to work only on top of user page, so I'll notify staff there and see what they'll say.

Fixed that at sl WP also late in previous year.

Problems still outstanding: some of languages not recognized in some language Wikipedias. Reason unknown at the moment.

Official languages in UK and Wales

@Martinevans123: - Talk:Wales#Semi-protected edit request on 26 March 2021 and official languages of UK:

Sorry for not replying earlier.

I am not regularly on interent, and even when I am I sometimes focus on task(s) at hand, and recover broad focus (sometimes much) later. When I wrote that comment I was at probably into 4 levels of blackbox troublehooting:

1. studying and documenting comunications/hw/sw behaviour on a system with random problems during normal use (for testing of which I used work on WP)
2. within that, documenting some inter language and wikidata anomalies (how it should be used, and what might be user, help/tutorial, or WD implementation related problems, when behavimg funny)
3. for that, studying Wales in WP and WD in paralel, to see how a good example of a geographic item works with WikiData when (hopefully) done right, and how Wikidata info should show in articles in other languages
4. that's why perusing en WP contents was quaternary (or so) level of focus at the time, but If I saw a link would be welcome/necessary in article, I added it
5. how what I wrote was writen, was low priority (and spell checker might be not working because of hw etc. problems, or even not installed in particular browser, and me with no free processing power to look over language would be not reliable there); see line below
6. that's why I also added info to talk page on what changes I did at Wales, so that someone else might check my work

At the time I was focussed on #1 and did the rest at descending priority of peripheral multitasking.

Official languages statement in Wales article

I later looked a bit into section Talk:Wales#Semi-protected edit request on 26 March 2021 and into langages of Wales and languages of UK and saw, that it seems (I didn't peruse sources) no oficial language is specified in regulations within UK in general, except in Wales.

When at high school about 1965-1970 (I hope I translated school type accordingly) my (now deceased) teacher of English, who was a polyglotte, told us about his problems in securing language materials for Basque, Breton, Welsh, Cornish, Irish, (Gaelic) Scotish and Mannsh. What I remember is, that you could get Basque and Breton dictionary and grammar with no problem in London, but could get beaten if you asked for the rest on the list in London, and could get materials for last five with no problem in Paris, but could get beaten if you asked in Paris for dictionary and grammar books for Breton of Basque.

I don't think getting beaten was codified anywhere, so there was probably no de iure official language, bat according to what I remember, there seem to have had been a de facto official language. Also, I am pretty sure situation changed with time a lot. I have also some experience with other historically (ocasionally deadly) problematic multilingual areas (Italy/Austria, Slovenia/Italy, Slovenia/Austria etc.), that currently mostly seem cooperating well. I also have available some WP reliable reference materal on how those things were before in some of those areas, but I don't think something like that directly applies to current UK situation (I am aware I lack current cultural UK context). That's why I just mentioned the sentence that was not clear to me.

After having read a bit around, the sentence I quoted is still misleading for a foreigner, and if that should be adressed in ...26 March 2021 section, I can move? copy? that statement and my observation form adding links there, to continue discussion.

What do you suggest: copy? move? link(can/how can I link inside a page on arbitrary part of text/without making a section)?

If I can help I shall. --Marjan Tomki SI (talk) 22:37, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Remark

You wrote by WP criteria not notable people.... Well, neither opera singers nor bankers are notable by default. tgeorgescu (talk) 11:38, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

@tgeorgescu: I can't find the text you quoted on this talk page; or to be precise, the browser's find function can't find any "non notable people" pattern outside this section. Can you give it's context (article or other location), please? Marjan Tomki SI (talk) 12:21, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

User:Marjan Tomki SI#Troubleshooting policies. tgeorgescu (talk) 12:39, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

@tgeorgescu: Thanks, and thank you for opportunity to get an opinion on this. During waiting for your answer I also skimmed a bit through your user page, e.g. What Wikipedia is, so I have a bit of a reference point. If you looked a bit more through my subpages, I'll be able to (hopefully) not repeat things already there.

1 Notability

• notability is literally worthy to get noted (written down, not forgotten), like legenda sunt (notes that should be read) developed into he's a legend, legendary this or that etc.
• people that influenced people around me (and whom I set as examples to follow to young people) several times are not discussed by Ivy league universities, but are IMO notable, and worthy of being read about - because knowing about them makes people better (more able, more wise, more ethical...).
• It's not only who or what is included, it is also what info about the subject or object is notable. I am less interested (and kids I influence while teaching sailing, too) for dry data, but also why, and how, something was done, discovered, created, achieved - so we can all try similar methods. Michael Faraday's lectures about The Chemical History of the Candle were such, and Carl Sagan's Cosmos, and Neal de Grasse Tyson etc. - the best info was not quite (or only) encyclopedic. Aleš Strojnik - I knew him personally when I was about 14 - didn't give us data, he helped us find the methods to develop the data ourselves (but I didn't see that story ever published, even if I told it countless times, so I'll probably write it to WikiSource).

2 my actions in Wikipedia (not exhaustive)

• I won't unnecessarily write such info about notable entities (people, or objects, contexts etc.), without WP:RS, into wikipedia. Whenever possible, I'll propose, and help, creation of bona fide sources that can support such info, before I include it into Wikipedia articles
• If (hopefully: when) I find out how without unwanted side effects (regarding self-promoting etc. contents) I'll propose relevant amendments/changes to WP policies in question
• I have a set of such info about IMO notable people waiting to be included into sl biographies and similar publications that can be used as WP:RS. For several of those people WP stub articles already exist (they are agreed to be notable), and I am waiting with expanding until sources to be cited for that get published, but people working on those sources are doing the best they can, and it may not be done before I die (and when I do, it probably won't bother me, but if my generation dies and that info is not noted, that info might be lost).
• You are probably familiar with stories about the end of Library of Alexandria, but it seems most of the contents got lost because funds to keep scribes fed (etc.) transcribing contents to new wela and papyri became insufficient, and we can ascribe that to entropy. And I like Asimov - maybe you know his The Last Question for an excellent point of view on that
• The same would very probably happen to all our digitized info if (when) funds for keeping it running vanished

I am not sure about god, or gods (you can call me agnostic - that I know I don't know), but can't see any way that what happens does what it does without something like entropy (however we call that), but I am not sure of that. So I suppose (but am not sure of that, as you like to write of being sure of a lot of things), that loosing info in reality I experience is a given (see The Last Question above), even if loosing some things - that I feel are precious - with our generation's passing away, makes me sad.

• When I see a problem (or several problems of the type) I try to address that by changing the agreed rules for better, not breaking them. If/when I find, or am shown, a solution for that within existing rules I am (more than) happy with it.
• If the problem is serious (deadly...), and time is of essence, I'd be bold and obey WP:IAR

3 On your Ivy League Criterion, and POW on financing science problem, etc.

• Isaac Asimov Biographic Encyclopedia of Science and Technology lists several mistakes "science" made, and often adhered for a pretty long time
• WP:POV within science:
  • It studies mostly things that are financed, and hardly things that are not, because scientists have to live from something, and in current civilization that includes money
  • Health industry doesn't like to finance research that could (theoretically) make people healthy enough to not needing them, so they would loose profits, and get obsolete. I suppose MBA would teach managers about laws, that forbid such management of investments those managers are paid to manage.
  • See what was the history with Tobacco industry and science, and now (2024 AD) that classic smoking tobacco abuse is limited by law, they are moving to electronic cigarettes with same nicotine abuse (conspiracy theorist? paranoiac?)
  • Probably similar was with lead tetraetil in gasolines and science (was in use half a century or more - paranoiac again?)
  • Reasons behind religious wars through history (was there religion? Or science? Or greed, hate etc.?), which we can discuss, when and how those could (and can) add to ability to survive of individual or small group, and are detrimental to civilization (and species...), and try to see it as not hopeless; or maybe you don't believe in those concepts (conspiracy theorist again? But I fail to try to be ironic, mostly sad).
• WP:POV on Ivy League only
  • Several linguists and historians of my area are non-Ivy League.
    • One of their discussion (and around French Annales) included that history is dead without sources, and that no source can be guaranteed to be valid; a generation of students seemed to derive from that, and accept, that history is a story they are paid to tell (public relations historians), and we have several such influential documented through history
  • Between others I was trained in methodology to improve information systems, with emphasis on statistical, and for several months worked with (already passed away) Bo Sundgren from Statistics Sweden , and I also trained other people to troubleshoot and improve info systems developing their own similar methods, and see him (and his methods) as no doubt notable, but can't add info about those because literature and documentation I used didn't survive at Statistics offices of Yugoslavian republics, so I can't make necessary citations. en Wikipedia has no article about him, and Swedish one has most of things (that I think would be useful to know) missing.

Conclusion on Ivy League Only:

• They cover a lot, but miss even more
• They have made mistakes (i don't keep lists, not even on paper, less in my memory, but some are that several of those people like to prophesies ex cathedra that something is impossible without researching it, which is far from scientific)
• At my troubleshooting work (see user page) I never gave general ex cathedra opinions. I told where what piece of info was detected at particular moment, and how, and what a piece equipment looked at particular moment (with photographic evidence, that could not yet be easily convincingly faked up like they can be now), and how it behaved. I proposed tests, and actions, based on results of available data.

I got some pretty incredible situations (but it seems my documentation didn't survive my retirement, so I can't cite it) - e.g.:

• Official statistics was calculated wrong on a particular computer, and software (subject matter specialist was using MS Excell macros) was not to blame (software set was cloned and no differences were found, and results were wrong just at that machine - on the others there were no complaints). We didn't have free available computers, so I exchanged two, moved the problematic one to a task where floating point aritmetics was not used. But I didn't know, or prove the fault there - didn't have tools or time for that, but the problem was solved based on hypothesis only; and I followed both comps for a while (looking into log files, and doing compares of expected and actual results from time to time) and both consistently gave correct results at changed positions
• On a mainframe computer (FACOM M180 II/AD) system programs (e.g. JBBGENER, equivalent to IEBGENER from IBM OS VS/MVS, relatively simple, and more then well tested as reliable) started failing from time to time. The reason was that both air-conditioning units were not maintained correctly, so humidifiers failed, and low humidity allowed static electricity charge to build, which caused random memory errors. I couldn't prove the error (or it's exact location), but Japanese HW engineer who flew in from Spain and visited our machine switched on air-condition related sensors so computer didn't start up if environment parameters were out of range.

Air conditioning units got repaired and mainframe got on working for a decade more - but I didn't have WP:RR sources to cite then, and don't have them now (and Ivy League is not financed to learn about random error troubleshooting, as far as I know). Tom Shanley - if you were hacking with hardware and didn't encounter his books, borrow some and come back to discussion here[1] I already mentioned not only discussed that in his books, - he also trained HW people, including from Intel and other HW makers - possibly still does - but I don't have Ivy League sources about that, and I even could not find any sources to base creation of article about him on, yet (because his firm published those books even if I had them to cite, might not be WP:RS).

Jan Hruska,[2] one of the founders of Sophos might be another such - I have worked with their tools from about 1990-ies and am still to a point up to date with malware problems. He did lectures at university in Oxford, but those lectures were not published in Ivy League, and I have still to find sources for his biography. Well...

Let me conclude for the day:

• I am not sure about god no matter who says what
• I am not sure about what I see (i know some things about biologic vision processing and illusions where one sees what that part of brain expects, not necessarily what is there). I'll tell you what I think I saw, weasel words or no.
• I'll put weasel words into the article, when I'll (be allowed to) discuss method of original discoverer, or creator of something, if he used them describing his methods in WP:RS (Feynmann with his speech when he got Nobel Prize, comes to mind, but he is far form the only one, Newton is another), and in discussing that I would use primary sources (latin for Newton), not somebody who misunderstood (I have found such an bona fide misunderstanding example today in wikipedia, that two editors in different ways didn't understand a cited source correctly - but I'll deal with that later).

In such a case, i'd also obey the rule WP:IAR (but I don't intend to abuse it, and wouldn't without consent of other editors - possibly including you for a particular case)

• I intended to try to translate en article Air Tractor to sl Wikipedia - our country has some terrain where it is hard and dangerous for firemen access, and AT-500 Air Boss airplanes were found suitable (so info on Air Tractor enterprise evolution is notable here), but I'll do it another day, and if you return constructively to this discussion my time writing this was well used
• If you answer, I'll not be around comp for a week - tomorrow I race a sailboat on Bohinj Lake, next week I am a fulcrum for moving 20 one person sailboats from that lake to another, where shall be another three day race, where I shall be both a competitor and support, and aftert that to move those back to lake Bohinj, so please don't expect instant reply.

And if you conclude I am not quite a lunatic, but only modestly slapped by a wet sock around the ears, we could discuss notability (or else) case by case when I would be in doubt. Regards, Marjan Tomki SI (talk) 17:07, 16 May 2024 (UTC) Corrected and clarified a bit --Marjan Tomki SI (talk) 04:17, 22 May 2024 (UTC)