User talk:Esowteric/Archives/2010/June

Sufism: Preeminent Sufis

Hi!

We seem to have once again an outbreak of people adding their favorite lesser-known Sufi saints to this section. I deleted the last two additions , referencing the previous Talk page discussion in my edit summary. The guy who added one of the saints reverted this edit, calling it "intended vandalism". Wonder if you'd care to take a look at the additions, and see what you feel?

Thanks! --Sarabseth (talk) 14:24, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Berns

Hi Eric, remember that over the next four or five days, you can take the Berns article to WP:DYK for a main page appearance per Wikipedia:Dyk#Selection_criteria. All you have to do is think up a suitable hook. Best, --JN466 18:21, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, Jayen. I'll give that some thought. Have just spent over an hour trying to find a place and date of birth: not uncommon amongst academics to offer no personal profile. Esowteric+Talk 18:32, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

He has at least one personal home page you could add as an external link: http://www.ccnl.emory.edu/greg/ (unfortunately, I couldn't find a birthdate in his CV there) --JN466 21:16, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Ah, silly me: I put that in the infobox, but forgot to add it as an xlink. Thanks, eric. Esowteric+Talk 21:29, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

<grin> There is also this page: http://www.emory.edu/PROVOST/greatscholars_old/GregoryBerns.htm (might strike some as a bit promotional, though; dunno) --JN466 22:56, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks again, J. Have pulled out a couple of uncontroversial snippets from it and ignored the "Great Scholars" theme. Esowteric+Talk 09:47, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Hi Eric, would you mind if I nominate the article for DYK today? I thought a hook like this might work:

Did you know

... that according to neuroeconomist Gregory Berns, the novel experiences we have while we pursue an aim bring us more pleasure than the achievement itself?

As the article author, you'll get a credit on the talk page from the DYK people once it has appeared on the main page. --JN466 06:51, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Hi J, yes thanks, that would be fine. Good hook. Please feel free to make any changes you feel necessary. Esowteric+Talk 07:31, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Great. I'll tweak it a bit. Perhaps ... that according to neuroeconomist Gregory Berns, the challenges and novel experiences we undergo in the process of pursuing an aim bring us more pleasure than the achievement of the aim itself? --JN466 07:36, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Yep, that sounds great J. Many thanks, Esowteric+Talk 07:39, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Change the text, too, to fit the refs and the DYK if you want. Esowteric+Talk 07:43, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Nominated. The article text looks fine, but I'll read through it a few more times over the next few days. --JN466 07:52, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Muchus grasias. Esowteric+Talk 07:55, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, have just woken up. Can you just do a mental double check on whether the key here is "pleasure", [true] "satisfaction" or "fulfilment", J? Fresh eyes and all that. Some of what I wrote involved my interpretation of what was written. Esowteric+Talk 08:07, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps we should change it to "fulfilment". "Happiness" might do too; while I haven't read the book, according to the CNN review, Berns 'has spent his academic career investigating happiness, or as he puts it, the circumstances under which the brain releases the "pleasure chemical" dopamine. Sex, drugs, or a good meal can increase dopamine levels. But startling noises and electric shocks can too. Berns concludes, then, in the book's central thesis, that pleasure is derived not from so-called "pleasant" experiences but from novel ones. "The sense of satisfaction after you've successfully handled unexpected tasks or sought out unfamiliar, physically and emotionally demanding activities is your brain's signal that you're doing what nature designed you to do," Berns notes.' So in a way he is till talking about pleasure; he is just saying that the way pleasure comes about is not necessarily what we would have associated with the word pleasure. The "fulfilment" wording is used in the Great Scholars Great Work page that's also cited. --JN466 09:16, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Ta, am happy to leave the matter to your good judgement, J. Esowteric+Talk 09:22, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

BTW, as an aside: it's popularly thought that Shangri-La is traceable back to James Hilton's Lost Horizon (1930s). Yet having just parsed the 1911 edition of Roget's Thesaurus from Project Gutenberg text files (for a theasurus search engine), I found the word under "pleasure". It's also on-line here. Of course, the text files may have been augmented. Esowteric+Talk 09:22, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Mystery solved: "Roget's Thesaurus, 1911, version 1.02 (supplemented: July 1991)". Esowteric+Talk 09:45, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

They do that just to trip us up. :) I've changed the hook to "fulfilment". In a way though, it seems, Berns isn't really arguing that we don't seek pleasure; he just says that if you equate pleasure to dopamine release, then it is interesting to note the things that lead to such a release. And he himself writes a guide on how to achieve the pleasure of that release. All interesting stuff. --JN466 10:24, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

• I think Beard's Scientific American review is the one that amazon quotes a bit from [1]; it seems the review was somewhere between neutral and unfavourable. I'm a bit hesitant to source it directly from the amazon page (although I think we presently are doing so for the Publishers Weekly review). There are also a few other reviews quoted on amazon that might be useful if we can get our hands on them. --JN466 23:54, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
• Just as a heads-up on the amazon editorial reviews issue: there was an earlier discussion at RS/N about this: Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_20#Citing_unverifiable_Amazon_.27editorial_reviews.27_as_book_reviews --JN466 00:04, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

• Yes, I'm with you on that, J. That's why I didn't expand on the Scientific American review except to say that it's out there. I can see this subscription lark is going to get worse as more agencies reduce their free content. They could always make money on new and recent articles, yet offer an archive of older content free as a public service. Esowteric+Talk 05:50, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
• Thanks for sprucing-up the article, J. It's appreciated. Esowteric+Talk 05:59, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

DYK for Gregory Berns

— Rlevse • Talk • 18:02, 29 June 2010 (UTC)