Template:Did you know nominations/San Francisco Historic Trolley Festival

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 23:54, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

San Francisco Historic Trolley Festival

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A trolley from Portugal in the San Francisco Historic Trolley Festival

or

Three trolleys in the San Francisco Historic Trolley Festival

• ... that the San Francisco Historic Trolley Festival featured streetcars (example pictured) from Australia, England, Germany, Italy, Japan, Mexico, Portugal, Russia and the United States? Source: "The old cars, from Mexico, England, Portugal, Australia, Italy, Germany, Los Angeles and St. Louis will run every 15 minutes from 10:30 A.M. to 6:30 P.M. every day except Tuesday and Wednesday until Oct. 1." (NY Times, 1984) and (for Russia and Japan:) "Other cars include three smooth-riding Presidents' Conference Committee streamliners dating from the 1940s and 1950s, and cars from Melbourne, Moscow, Milan, Hamburg, Hiroshima and Blackpool, England." (San Francisco Chronicle, May 13, 1987); another online source, listing every foreign country except Mexico (because the one Mexican trolley had left by then), is this July 1987 news report in Pacific RailNews, which lists the countries in a table (Portugal is below the table).

• Reviewed: Damiano Michieletto
• Comments: The hook fact appears in the first section after the lead, the "Overview" section. The terms trolley and streetcar are essentially synonymous (which I have also stated in the article, with source). I almost did not include "the United States" in the list of countries in the hook, because it's likely that it would be inferred; for that reason, I would not object to its omission.

Created by SJ Morg (talk). Self-nominated at 10:00, 25 June 2019 (UTC).

Substantial article on excellent sources, offline sources accepted AGF, no copyvio obvious. Sorry, I am not happy with the hook. Can we say many countries, picking some perhaps? The article is not about countries but a temporary tourist attraction. If we stick with the image, we could say (example from Portugal pictured), but I think File:1987 SF Historic Trolley Festival - Milano 1834 turning into Noe St wye from 17th St.jpg has more SF streets feeling ;) - In the article, the first para in the body (and at least one further down) has no ref at the end, and that will be checked by others ;) - The following are just recommendations, + take it to GA, please: "First season (1983)" looks a bit strange to me, these brackets for the main thing. Check numeric ref order when several refs are given for a fact. - Consider to not have an image disturb the display of the 1983 fleet. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:01, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Thank you! I had figured I would probably have to wait several weeks for anyone to review this nomination, because the article is so long. I have no objection to replacing the list of foreign countries with something shorter. The only problem is that, although the total number was eight (without USA), it was never more than seven in any one season, and I have not found a source for "eight" – which means a somewhat less-impressive "several" or "many" may have to suffice. Here are some alternative hooks, all of which are well under the 200-character maximum (even if "(example from Portugal pictured)" is counted, which supplementary guideline E5 says is not required):

• ALT1: ... that the San Francisco Historic Trolley Festival featured streetcars (example from Portugal pictured) from Australia, England, Japan, Russia and several other countries?
• ALT2: ... that the San Francisco Historic Trolley Festival featured streetcars (example from Portugal pictured) from several foreign countries, including England, Mexico, Japan, and Russia?
• ALT3: ... that the San Francisco Historic Trolley Festival, which took place in the 1980s, featured streetcars (example from Portugal pictured) from several foreign countries?

I remain open to suggestions for other wordings, but I will say that the reason I chose the 3–4 countries that I did, for the ALTs above, is that they are on three different continents (FYI: to Americans, Europe and Asia are separate continents; I realize that some Europeans consider Eurasia to be a single continent), and thus they represent very different parts of the world. That is also why I prefer a hook that lists 3–4 countries to one that (like ALT3) does not identify any countries. Also, of the four Western European countries, England is the one that was represented the most, in the five all Trolley Festival seasons, and that is why I suggest mentioning it, rather than Germany, Italy or Portugal.

Alternative image

A trolley from Milan

Regarding the photo, your comment is very welcome, but I have some hesitation to embrace it. You make a very good point that the photo of the Milano tram has a building that is much more evocative of San Francisco, and I had not thought of that. However, the F Market & Wharves tram line – the full-time, year-round, permanent streetcar service that runs in SF now – uses several of that exact type of Milano streetcar (see Commons:Category:Peter Witt streetcars of the San Francisco Municipal Railway), and that is the only type of foreign-built streetcar that is in wide use in San Francisco today. So, I wanted to use a photo of one of the several types of streetcars that operated only during the Historic Trolley Festivals. The Porto car 122 photo has buildings in the background which, although not distinctively SF or North American-looking, are very different from what one would typically see in Porto. Do have any opinion on the photo with three streetcars? I was concerned that it would be considered too dark, but it was my best photo with a variety and quantity (3+) of streetcars all in a single photo. Regardless of the above, I am willing to endorse the Milano photo as an alternative image, to improve the chances that whoever "promotes" the nomination will put it into the lead spot, and so I have added it at Main Page size here. When this review is concluded, you or I should leave a "Note to the promoter: If the alternative image is chosen (the orange Milan tram), "Portugal" in the hook must be replaced by "Italy"." I hope I am not asking you to spend an excessive amount of time thinking about the image!  ;)

As to your comments that two paragraphs "have no refs at the end": End-of-paragraph refs are only required for Good Article candidates, not for DYK, which only requires at least one inline citation per paragraph (according to the reviewing guide). You acknowledged that your other comments are beyond the scope of the DYK process, but I welcome your suggestions. I have deleted "(1983)" from that heading, and I will address the numerical order of inline citations at some point (even though, personally, I do not care whether inline refs are in numerical order unless an article is nominated for GA, so I usually just let other editors "fix" that, if it bothers them). Thanks again! – SJ Morg (talk) 10:19, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for your again substantial comments. I try to take qpq literally, so if someone graced an article I submitted with a review, I try to do the same, - unless it's something I wouldn't want to see on the Main page ;) - I rather review a lengthy article by a trusted user than a short one with doubtful claims. Also, the motto of a local festival this year is Courage ;)

Of the ALTs, I like ALT2 best, enough so to strike the others.

The image is not there to show the best possible street car example but to be attractive in the literal sense. I recently had an opera singer, a topic which seems to bore readers and thus often with 3-digit page views, with an attractice image: 14k+. The Milan pic is brighter and more typical, and the "hooked" readers will get the other one anyway. I leave it to the prep builder. Here's a version for that image:

ALT2b: ... that the San Francisco Historic Trolley Festival featured streetcars (example from Italy pictured) from several foreign countries, including England, Japan, Mexico, and Russia?

I shortened the repetition in the caption.

As for the minor suggestions: I told you, and we'll see ;) - Again: go for GA! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:50, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Thank you. I am content with either ALT2 or ALT2b, which differ only in the image and image-related text. I endorse the use of the Milan-streetcar photo, based on your arguments, and I now recommend it. However, I still consider the Porto-car photo to be a suitable alternative, and it can still be used if the editor who promotes the nomination prefers it to the Milan image. – SJ Morg (talk) 08:05, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

Thank you, and asking image magician David if both pics could be cropped for the purpose, the Portuguese with less building, the Italian with less street at the bottom, to focus on the trolleys. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:35, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

From article's creator (and the photographer): That is OK with me, but any cropped versions should be uploaded under different file names, not replacing the originals. The photo with the Italian car, in particular, must retain the foreground at the original file name (so that the full image can still be displayed), because it is showing a distinctive track layout that is discussed in the article (a wye). SJ Morg (talk) 08:40, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

Also, please do not cut off the top of the building in the Italian-streetcar photo; but cropping at the bottom (especially) and at either side would be fine. SJ Morg (talk) 08:43, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

I should perhaps have told you that David retained the original in all cases I observed. Most successful crop I saw was this which is not even in the article, only for the stamp size of the Main page. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:10, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

That is good to know. Thank you. – SJ Morg (talk) 06:04, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt: If you are finished with your review, you need to leave a green check mark (green "tick" in British English) here, noting that it's for ALT2 or ALT2b, depending on the image chosen. If your intention was to wait until after David Levy carries out the image cropping you requested (17 days ago now), then I think you probably need to ask him again. If there is something else you were waiting for me to do, I am not aware of it. SJ Morg (talk) 06:40, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for the reminder! One more for David, but the images work also as they are. I prefer ALT2b with the Italian trolley. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:10, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

A trolley from Milan

Thanks. I have gone ahead and made a cropped copy of the Italian-trolley image myself, shown at right. To me, your shortened image caption seems a little too short, but I leave it to the prep builder to determine whether it should be expanded. – SJ Morg (talk) 04:05, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

I love the cropped image. Please supply an alt caption right here, keeping in mind that we have limited characters for the fact, and certainly don't have to repeat the name of the festival. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:57, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, but I don't understand your last statement, considering that is it common for DYK image captions to include the name of the new (boldface) article. The main argument against doing so in this case (and it's a pretty good argument) is that the name is so long – San Francisco Historic Trolley Festival. I have already indicated that, personally, I do not feel that that is a good enough argument, and I would include the name of the festival in the caption if I were writing it. However, shorter versions might be "A trolley from Milan in San Francisco" or "A trolley from Milan in the 1987 Historic Trolley Festival" (omitting San Francisco). I like the latter, which would still keep the caption on just two lines. – SJ Morg (talk) 09:18, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

I advise the prep builder to study the above. I don't agree, but that shouldn't influence. Examples: For a piece of music with a long title, I'd just say "Title page", not repeat that title. For a person, yes, their name would be repeated, but only because some caption should be there. Recently, the subject's portrait was the image, - the caption did not repeat her long name but had the title of the portrait, especially since her name was different when the portrait was made. - Summary: the subject doesn't have to be repeated in the image caption. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:18, 22 July 2019 (UTC)