Talk:Zimbabwe/Archive 1

Worthless

Please rewrite this in a more neutral tone! This article is worthless as it is.

Zimbabwe is a very troubled country, and sometimes the truth is hard to take.

What are you really talking about? Be specific in telling us which part not neutral.

I agree -I live in South Africa and keep a close eye on the situation. And worthless is probably too strong a word. But the convention here is a neutral point of view. Neutrally recording the facts in Zimbabwe will not minimise the effect of the article. Nor will recording some of the positives from the early days (for example mentioning literacy did increase dramatically at first). For someone not involved in Zimbabwe, the article is not that useful.

For example, the statement:

"Many observers believe the country is now on the verge of genocide, particularly as the ruling Zanu-PF elite continues with its controversial Land Reform policies." is not clear. There is no logical connection between the two points. Perhaps explain that food aid is being witheld from MDC supporting areas, that the land reform is supposedly being aimed at landless blacks but in practice it's a free for all for ruling party supporters. Also statements such as "By starving people to death you avoid the gory images that came pouring out of Rwanda." may be true, but do they contribute anything to a readers understanding of the situation? It's an interpretation, and rather let the facts allow the reader to make that interpretation than force it down their throats.

It's an important story, ignored by most of the world, and a good article can help, but it needs to be done in a more neutral way, that which you'd expect to find in an Enclycopedia.

Decimate

Sentence Did read: The destruction of much of Zimbabwe's agricultural base through the seizing of mainly white-owned farms throughout 1999 and 2000 has decimated the Zimbabwean economy replaced decimated with ruined. I do wish people would use Decimate correctly! Dainamo

I believe that the old meaning of decimate (in the Roman sense, of killing one man in ten in a legion) is somewhat lost, and the new meaning (to kill many or reduce highly) is strong enough that it is now the language. I too mourn the passing of the old, but languages are alive, and changing. LoganT

Zim Links

Tempted to remove http://www.zimbabwe.8m.com/ on grounds that it is a very poor and neglected links site, not worthy of inclusion here. Would anyone oppose this action? --Mount Pleasant 14:07, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Is this NPOV?

I am no expert, but this article seems much to soft on the current government. Does NPOV mean toothless? [[Paul, in Saudi 14:38, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)]]

• This article is not NPOV on many points, but its not even worth discussing since this is Wikipedia and experts are never right.

Shona/Bantu confusion?

The History/Iron Age subsection of the article starts with "Iron Age Bantu-speaking peoples began migrating into the area about 2,000 years ago, including the ancestors of the Shona". Unfortunately Bantu seems to be an ethnic group (rather than language) and Shona appears to be a language.

I'm only going by the linked articles, so someone who knows their stuff should sort this out. JamesHoadley 12:52, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Not an expert, but Guns, Germs, and Steel refers to Bantu as a general language-family. If you read through the entirety of both the linked articles, it's clear that both Bantu and Shona refer to both ethnic groups and the languages spoken by those groups. Kkatastrophe 5 July 2005 05:35 (UTC)

The original text is to my knowledge by and large correct. "Bantu" is used for both the language-group and for the people. The same is "Shona" - which is one of many Bantu languages and ethnic groups. Regards, Sigurd J.

Anthem

My knowledge of Shona is pretty limited, but Ilizwe means land, so I'm guessing the old anthem name (Kalibusiswe Ilizwe leZimbabwe) was the correct one, and the anonymous change to Simudzai Mureza WeZimbabwe was vandalism. If you believe the change to be valid, please discuss on the Talk page first. Greenman 08:43, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

• It's the same song - Kalibusiswe Ilizwe leZimbabwe is the Ndebele title, and Simudzai Mureza WeZimbabwe is the Shona title. I suggest that either both titles are given, or the entry sticks with Simudzai Mureza WeZimbabwe as the language reflecting the majority of the Zimbabwean population.Humansdorpie 09:54, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
• I think you are thinking of Kosisikelele Africa, Ishe Komborerai Africa.

MaShona are a people, chiShona means the language. It's entirely correct for Shona to refer to a people. Dave

Politics

Is it just me or is the Politics section rather small, for what is such a controversial subject, rarely out of the news in the western world? Also, anyone know which British Minister it is that he keeps shaking hands with? Bastion 07:43, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

• The hand shaking controversy was about Jack Straw, the UK Labour Party's current Foreign Secretary, shaking hands with Mugabe. On the politics section as it stands is small but it covers the whole National political situation and its neutral, though Morgan Tsvangirai isnt mentioned. I'll add something saying that he leads the MDC. Fadamsxii 04:39, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

PatRoly's edits

Were reverted because of POV, and mangled grammar and spelling.

Borders

The top section mentions a border with Namibia, but the Geography section does not mention a border with Namibia. On most maps it looks like there is a Zimbabwe-Namibia-Zambia-Botswana quadripoint in the Zambezi, but, detailed maps of the area show a near miss. In fact, I noticed on one that there is a road that directly links Botswana and Zambia without touching either Namibia or Zimbabwe. I shall fix the top section accordingly. --Canuckguy 02:14, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Southern Rhodesia

The article begins talking of 'Rhodesia', then goes to 'Northern and Southern Rhodesia' without explaining how Southern Rhodesia came about or that Northern Rhodesia is Zambia.

"In 1889, Cecil Rhodes obtained from the British government a charter for his BRITISH SOUTH AFRICA COMPANY permitting him to set up a colony in Southern Africa. Rhodes obtained a treaty from illiterate Matabele King LOBENGULA (1888), who virtually signed the sovereignty over Mashonaland over to Rhodes. Rhodes had FORT SALISBURY established (1890) and took steps to take control of the country. Salisbury became the administrative center of the BSAC territory of Mashonaland, and, after 1901, of the merged territories of Mashonaland and Matabeleland. In 1911 the territory was transformed into the SOUTHERN RHODESIA PROTECTORATE, still under the control of the BSAC." (http://www.zum.de/whkmla/region/southafrica/bsaprot.html)

" In 1889 the British South Africa Company ... obtained a charter to promote commerce and colonization in the region. Leander Starr Jameson , an associate of Rhodes, led a column of South African and British pioneers deep into the interior, where they founded (1890) Fort Salisbury. Fighting in 1893 resulted in the defeat of the Ndebele and the takeover of their territory by Rhodes's company. Both the Ndebele and the Shona staged unsuccessful revolts against the British in 1896-97. The settlers pressed the company for political rights, and in 1914 the British government renewed the company's charter on the condition that self-government be granted to the settlers by 1924. In late 1922, settlers voted in a referendum to reject proposals for incorporation into the Union of South Africa, electing instead to make Rhodesia a self-governing colony under the British Crown—a status that became effective on Sept. 12, 1923." (http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/section/Zimbabwe_History.asp) There is more detail on the Rhodesia (disambiguation) page Makewa 03:24, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

AIDS

I think thereought to be a section treating the health situation in Zimbabwe, especially the status of AIDS in the country. This is a very serious issue facing sub-saharan Africa right now, and I think the national articles should cover it. What are the government's official policies? What do WHO and other int'l health organizations say about it? I don't know enough to do it myself, but it should be there.

Chinese

"Much of the country's much-diminished foreign currency is being sent home by Chinese immigrants making a potential foreign currency crisis beginning in late 2003."

Is there any truth in this? There are a number of chinese contractors working on building dams but I never noticed much of a chinese business cabal.

The hard currency shortage has been around since the Rhodesia days and became a 'crisis' before 2003.

Request for review

I recently added a mention to this article, of the destruction of the remains of Great Zimbabwe. Could someone review it for encyclopedia phrasing etc? (And then delete this note is fine.) Thanks. LoganT

No evidence of human rights abuses and election tampering

"In the aftermath of Mugabe's handling of the land crisis, which moved to redistribute land to blacks, Zimbabwe was suspended from the Commonwealth of Nations on charges of human rights abuses and of election tampering in 2002 of which there was no evidence to prove such. Later, Zimbabwe withdrew from the Commonwealth."

I think the imprisonment of opposition politicians, beating of opposition politicians, few polling stations in opposition areas counts as tampering.

Effect of land distribution

There is little to discuss how redistibution There is little to discuss how redistribution effectively crippled export and food production. Now with little export crops Zim has little way to gain foreign exchange and pay for fuel and imports.