Talk:Yagyū Munenori

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guys. why is the The Book of Family Traditions on the Art of War not listed or talked about. question mark. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.179.108.53 (talk) 05:10, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

There are number of historical discrepancies in the article. First, though Munenori did indeed found the Edo Yagyu line of Shinkage ryu, he was never given the inka indicating inheritance of the school. Which leads to the second discrepancy. Toshiyoshi was not Munenori's brother, he was his nephew, the son of Munenori's oldest brother Yoshikatsu. Toshiyoshi did receive the inka of full transmission and inheritance from his grandfather Muneyoshi, making him the third headmaster of the ryu, after Kamiizumi Ise-no-kami and Yagyu Sekishusai. I'll edit the article to fix these discrepancies and add info on Munenori's Heiho Kadensho. 219.209.107.16 20:29, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your extensive help with this. I assume the inka you refer to is 印可, a formal transmission from master to student? I don't know much about the details of this sort of thing, but I would not be surprised if it came to be an element of the school's formalities at some point after the first generation. Not all martial arts rituals or formalities stretch back to the beginning. ... I changed the phrasing of Munenori "learning" the school from his father. Firstly, one does not learn a school; one learns the techniques and philosophies of a school, one trains in a school, but one does not learn a school. Secondly, he was far more than just a student - he took over as head of a branch of the school, thus, a word like "inherit" becomes more appropriate. Thanks again for your contributions. I'd encourage you, if you are interested, to register an account, so you can start editing under a proper user name. LordAmeth 13:47, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

In this case, "school" refers to Webster's definition 4a - "a group of persons who hold a common doctrine or follow the same teacher (as in philosophy, theology, or medicine) <the Aristotelian school>; also : the doctrine or practice of such a group". This, as much as anything IMO, gets closest to the meaning "ryu". "Tradition" would also work. In Muromachi period ryu were not institutions and organizations, and "learn the Shinkage school of swordsmanship" is perfectly acceptable English that matches the idiomatic Japanese 新陰流を習う. But, this falls under semantics, which I doubt either of us really care to argue.

As far as 印可, I do know a bit of the details of this sort of thing, at least as far as Yagyu Shinkage-ryu is concerned. And what is historically verifiable is that the founder Kamiizumi Isenokami Hidetsuna gave to Yagyu Sekishusai Muneyoshi the ichi-koku, ichi-nin (一国一人) inka densho signifying complete transmission of the school. As far as Yagyu Shinkage-ryu believes today, it also signified exclusive inheritance from Hidetsuna, though others disagree. What is certain, however, is that Sekishusai did not pass this on to Munenori, he passed it on to Toshiyoshi, his grandson. Further, yes, at the time Munenori joined Ieyasu's service, he was just a student of the school. He never received a license of complete transmission from Sekishusai. He did indeed found his own branch of the ryu (and made some modifications to the kata), but he never inherited the school or its leadership. If one believes that at the time 印可 only meant complete transmission of the school, and not inheritance of leadership (宗家), then Munenori still did not receive full transmission. If one believes that 印可 signified both transmission and inheritance of leadership, then it clearly went to Toshiyoshi, and not Munenori. Even the modern descendants of Edo Yagyu trace their line back to Munenori, not Muneyoshi. Thus "Yagyū Munenori was head of the school of swordsmanship called Yagyū Shinkage-ryū" is misleading. "was head of a branch of the Yagyu Shinkage-ryu school of swordsmanship" would be more accurate. "was the founder of the Edo branch of Yagyu Shinkage ryu" is probably more concise.

You make a very good point that at the time, ryuha were not so strictly organized as they would later become in the Edo period. In which case, "head of the school of swordsmanship" is even more misleading, suggesting that there was one school, and that Munenori was it's head. Historically, and in the ways the lineages are looked at today, this was never the case. For more information on the subject, I suggest you read Wilson's translation of Heiho kadensho, titled The Life-Giving Sword, and if you can read Japanese, 正伝新陰流 by 柳生厳長. Also, check out 武芸流派大事典 by 綿谷 and 山田. 219.209.107.16 05:52, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your quick and detailed response. You definitely do seem to be quite knowledgeable on the subject. Thanks for your efforts - I'll leave you to it then. LordAmeth 13:45, 30 August 2007 (UTC)