Talk:Wernher von Braun/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Nazi, not German

Referring to von Braun as a "Nazi, later American" in the lead vastly improves the understanding of the article. Von Braun was born in the German Empire, not the nation of Germany. His hometown is in modern-day Poland. Not only that, but he was a Nazi scientist before he was an American scientist. German-born American sounds like he was only an American scientist, which is flat-out wrong. And not only that, but von Braun wasn't ethnically German he was ethically Polish, just as Hitler was ethnically Austrian.

Hitler was ethnically German, but Austrian by Nationality, right? Maybe someone with a more precise command of language can address this? Jokem (talk) 00:32, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

For other German higher-ups, we call them Nazis in the lead. There is no good encyclopedic reason to not do that here. RobotGoggles (talk) 23:33, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

I don't know. Have a look at Ernst Schäfer, Ernst Heinkel, Eugen Sänger, Karl Heinrich Emil Becker. These are other scientists (and similar) involved with Nazi Germany, but where their nationality is not conflated with being a Nazi. I'm not set on any of this, but right now, I'm a bit unenthusiastic about your change to the article. Attic Salt (talk) 01:39, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Von Braun was on the level of the Nazi higher-ups, he literally created missiles for the war effort, and his missiles killed English civilians. Those other articles are good examples of other individuals who should also be referred to as Nazi instead of German.

Besides that point, "German-born American engineer" is inaccurate. My mother is from the Soviet Union, but you wouldn't say she's a "Soviet-born American laboratory technician," since her career started in the USSR. "Soviet, later American lab tech" is more accurate.

Regardless of the consensus on German/Nazi, that grammatical issue was my initial edit here. RobotGoggles (talk) 02:37, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Even the article on Adolph Hitler does not describe him as a "Nazi, later German". I'm going to revert your change, but will accept consensus developed from other editors. Attic Salt (talk) 03:55, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

That's absolutely not the point. Nazi, later German? He literally died in Nazi Germany. RobotGoggles (talk) 06:52, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

• Nazism is a politiical party, not a nationality or ethnicity. No one is born a "Nazi", so there is absolutely "no good encyclopedic reason to" identify 'anyone biographically as "Nazi" instead of German.
• RobotGoggles, you are pushing a point of view by insisting on branding von Braun as a Nazi. He joined the party simply because that was required in order for the government to pay him to develop rockets, which was his life's passion (not killing Brits or Jews). This is not fair. There is no credible evidence that he sympathized with the Party's aims (despite the fact he was observed assenting to the harsh punishment of a worker who committed sabotage). JustinTime55 (talk) 17:28, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Plus, he was arrested by the Gestapo for disagreeing with the 'official' government policy. A dedicated Nazi would not have done that. Jokem (talk) 00:28, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Do all Republicans support building the wall? Do all Republicans support caging children away from their parents? No, but they are still members of the Republican Party. Von Braun was a card-carrying Nazi. His factories used slave labor, and he build weapons for the the Third Reich to kill the English. He did all this with the aim of space travel, yes, but his means to that end were Nazi. You are pushing your bias by hiding that fact. RobotGoggles (talk) 19:21, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

@RobotGoggles -- why are you bringing American politics into this like that? You are also wrong, Democrats were the ones who began caging babies to begin with under Obama, and Biden is still doing it even now. About a border wall - most nation's on the planet defend their borders so that's crazy to make it sound bad. 2600:1700:1EC1:30C0:7C3E:1517:2B7B:BCE2 (talk)

Besides, an encyclopedia is about facts, not fairness. Von Braun was a Nazi. That is a point of fact. There is no room for sympathy here. RobotGoggles (talk) 19:23, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

You claim to only care about facts when the subtext behind your own words clearly shows you care not about facts but only about your feelings at worst; subjective principles at best. You're not fooling anyone, Robot.Jersey John (talk) 18:33, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

The subtext of your above statement is nazi apologism and simplistic black/white dualism. Wernher was a Nazi and deserves no sanitation under the pretext of objectivity. But this is the MO of factbot shapiroists? Podfarming (talk) 11:19, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

Very neat, tidy, and sanitized article as befits an American regardless of past. Well done. 85.224.25.146 (talk) 11:05, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

Citations

There isn't a source given for the footnotes to West 2017. They were added starting with this diff [1]. We need the full citation. Graham Beards (talk) 12:05, 28 December 2021 (UTC)