Talk:Vancouver/Archive 4

Featured Article

Vancouver has been nominated again to become a featured article. Go to Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Vancouver to view the review and submit your support. If there are comments for improvement on the review, help out and try to improve the article to meet their requirements. Mkdw^talk 05:50, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Demographics section intro

The discussion about densification in downtown as city initiative currently in the first paragraph isn't by rights a "demographics" topic; it belongs somewhere else but I'm not sure; unless Architecture is retitled Architecture and Planning. The blurb about Sullivan's pet policy seems like political bumpf; the densification of Downtown South/Yaletown, Coal Harbour and International Village/City Gate are more specific, and pre-date Smilin' Sam becoming mayor; a lot of this paragraph sounds like planner-friendly apologism, too; Vancouver's motive isn't to reduce sprawl, which is a suburban problem, but to generate more construction, hence via property value and increased population more tax revenues, and more pretense to seeming like a "world city". And I'm a bit stunned to see almost no mention of the diversity and range of backgrounds of those of British heritage, who are the historically most important of all groups in the city (whether seen pro, or fashionably con); or the Scandinavians and others who have been here from the beginning; there is, in other words, a fascination/confabulation with non-white demographics in this section, and in the demographics article. Both should be in terms of at least showing some interest in other groups; particularly the Brits, in all their diversity. That Vancouver also had the largest from-Europe component, and from-Britain components, than any other part of the country, ever since its founding - even moreso than the Prairies, should also be noted. Also the highest rates of interethnic and interracial marriage, despite the latter-day pretension that BC was the most racist part of the country (nobody else got the chance to be racist because of the relatively mono-ethnic nature of communities in other parts of the country; even in the Prairies certain ethnic groups dominate certain small towns, and non-whites were rare from the Rockies to the Atlantic, other than aboriginal and black Canadians in ON and NS.Skookum1 08:48, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Latin Americans - visible or invisible/non-visible?

The reason that they are both is that many Latin Americans here are ladino or criolla stock, i.e. upper-class, more white than mestizo; although there are lots of mestizos. I have several Argentinem, Chilean and Brazilian friends/acquaintances who are not "visible" as minorities, albeit they are certainly "audible" and recognizable; "visible" Latin Americans, i.e. of mestizo background, tend to be from Mexico, Central America, and northwestern South America, although many Mexicans living here now are definitely from the ladino/white upper class stock. In general I think "visible" and "non-visible/invisible" designation of minorities is unworkable in Vancouver; "audible" is far more relevant, since there are assimilated Chinese and Japanese as well as assimilated Scandinavians and Poles; i.e. trying to categorize people by colour just doesn't work, especially in complex cases like people of US or Latin American origin (many blacks in the city, for instance, are US in origin, others from Africa, others from Europe/Britain, others from the Caribbean and sometimes Latin America; so who's what?). Given the racial multiplicity of Vancouver now I think the term "minority" is also an unwelcome transplant from US civil rights jargon that has outlived its usefulness here; especially in Richmond and Vancouver where there is no clear majority any longer. BTW cites for the new British-stock mention at the opening of the demographics section are the various Canadian censuses (censi?) and also Strangers Entertained (cf. Talk:English-Canadians).Skookum1 20:52, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

PS - and does anybody actually call West Broadway "Greektown" (other than city bureaucrats, that is)?? I don't know any Greeks that call it that, and I know lots of Greeks. Speaking of assimilation, here's a group that has maintained its language/culture in-family for the most part and, when they first arrived, were considered a "visible" minority (i.e. "not quite white", as were at one time Italians, Yugos and other Mediterranean peoples) but are now definitely placed in the "white" camp. Which is why I think it's high-time Vancouver got over the visible/invisible thing; it's never been a useful definition except for people with a "point to make" (claims for compensation).Skookum1 20:57, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you Skookum. I have many friends from South and Central America who are immigrants and still have their accents but most Canadians and they themselves would say they are Latin in culture but are White. The term Hispanic doesn't exist here especially and I've never really heard an educated person use it in Canada as I believe it is seen more of an American derogatory term. I have two women at work with a light complexion, and medium brown hair and one has green eyes and I would consider them White just as much as my blonde haired and blue-eyed self. Nowadays in Canada people of Iberian and Mediterranian descent are considered White, so therefore it makes perfect sense that Latin Americans of Spanish and Portuguese descent would be considered White. I also have never heard of anyone call West Broadway "Greektown". It does have a few Greek restaurants and shops, but over the last five years many have closed down and now there's a pretty good mix of shops from other ethnic flavourings. I'm in my mid-twenties though so maybe that's an older term used by those that were around when it was a full-out Greek neighbourhood. Although nowadays I see more Greeks living in Kerrisdale than I do in Kits and have lived in both neighbourhoods.Rapunzel In Van 11:54, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I think Skookum's comments came after I removed something about Latin Americans being a non-visible minority from the article. Certainly there are lots folks from Argentina elsewhere in LA that do not think of themselves and are not perceived by others to be minorities (in many areas, "whiteness" in Latin American is also a sign of economic class, which aint so much true here anymore, though Shaughnessy is still pretty white). I would hazard to guess though, that this represents a minority of Latin American immigrants in Vancouver; in any case, it's not a generalization that holds. "Canadianized" Latin Americans also complicate simple categorization. Also, the Greektown (Vancouver) article explains that the 'hood on West Broadway aint as Greek as it once was, and "Greek Days" has only recently been revived there. I think there was some violence in the 80s so they shut it down for a while, or maybe they were just having too much fun. But yeah, I don't think there's any one area anymore known as the place for souvlaki. The Little Italy (Vancouver) article claims that that title no longer holds for Commercial Drive, but IMO, it's arguable in that case, despite all the yuppies, bohemians, and all the rest that account for Drive "culture" along with the Italians (i.e., it's not monocultural as this article states).Bobanny 16:48, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I have to shout a resounding "who cares?" about the concept of visible minorities. At the extremes, it can be an objective (superficial) measurement. In the middle, it's constant debate. And even when it's objective... to what end? In Vancouver, of all cities, noting one as a visible minority accomplishes very little in terms of concluding what "status" the person holds professionally, socially, economically, or how they vote politically. I understand that federally, the Canadian government still holds onto the concept of a "visible minority"... but here in context... what does it actually contribute to the article about Vancouver? --Ds13 19:10, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Why, oh Why

...have people been mucking up the footnotes? After hearing many comments about how a lot of the footnotes were inconsistently and/or improperly formatted, and after dropping hints for someone else to do it, and realizing this was a major sticking point for the fac, I took on the tedious task of systematically going through them and fixing them. Now I see that the retreival dates have been removed from most (but not all) of the notes, same with the ISBN numbers (just the number, not "ISBN" for some reason), and other things (like changing the name of BC Studies to British Columbia Studies, which is NOt the name of that rag), and possibly other things. I can't imagine why these changes were made, perhaps it was some malfunctioning wikipedia "bot" turned evil and retaliating against its human oppressors, but if it was you, please fix 'em. Thank you. Bobanny 04:14, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I guess not. I went through and restored the citations. Please try and keep them standardized. Thanks, Bobanny 21:20, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Comments about the infobox

Nice article, but I think that the infobox is confusing. It is not clear if the Pop'n rank and the Metro rank is within Canadian cities or world cities. Plus, it is also unclear for someone who has no knowledge about Canadian politics wether the members of parliament and legislative assembly represent the city, the district or the province . CG 18:44, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

hmm...good points. IMO, these are more appropriately addressed in the article (I added the MP/MLA thing for clarity to the article). The info box can't realistically elaborate on the info it contains or else it's value gets muddled (others have complained that it's too big). That's my two cents anyway. Anyone else? Bobanny 19:16, 22 November 2006 (UTC) p.s., the MLA and MP thing is standard in British Commonwealth countries.

Vancouver Featured Articled

Vancouver is now a featured article. Thank you all for your tireless contributions in making Vancouver one of the newest Featured Articles. If you wish to help out with other Vancouver related articles, please visit the WikiProject Vancouver. Mkdw^talk 00:01, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Since this article has become a featured article, further contributions will be closely watched to ensure the quality and integrity are maintained to Featured Article criteria. Mkdw^talk 11:52, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Gung Haggis Fat Choy name discussion

Gung Haggis Fat Choy as a title would fail en.wikipedia as it is not the english-use name of the festival. It would be a suitable title on the Chinese Wikipedia. To comply with the English Wikipedia naming convention, the title should be the Dragon Boat Festival or Lunar New Year Parade and then mention its other names. On a side note this does not really have racial tension, just conflicts with Wikipedia's naming convention on non-english titles. Mkdw^talk 12:43, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

These are all different things. Gung Haggis Fat Choy is a combo Chinese/Scottish celebration and so far as I know, is Vancouver specific, so on that basis, I think it would be a good example. It's a local thing though, so it might need to take up some space explaining what the heck it is.Bobanny 21:25, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Just think of haggis as a giant wonton stuffed with...what the heck is it stuffed with again?Skookum1 01:42, 27 November 2006 (UTC) And what's the Chinese character for "Haggis", Mkdw, if it's a suitable title on Chinese Wikipedia. Do any Chinese lexemes even have a final /s/?

We're talking about Haggis as part of the name of an event in Vancouver and not the Scottish food Haggis. I do not understand your point about Mandrin or Cantonese having the letter 's'? 春节, or 农历新年|t=春節, or 農曆新年, or Gung Hei Fat Choy are all ways to write the same thing. Gung Hei Fat Choy in this case is an example of Pinyin, a very common and officially accepted form of writing Mandrin or Cantonese words. Mkdw^talk 05:55, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Are there Chinese syllables that end in "s", is what I meant; "dos", "was", "brass" and so on in English; Chinese syllables certainly start with 's', but in all my years of exposure to transliterated Chinese (and Japanese) I've never seen a word ending in 's'. And "hei" has nothing to do with "haggis"; the name Gung Haggis Fat Choy is meant as a jokename, as instigated by its founder (a Chinese member of the SFU pipe band; it began as a conversion of Robbie Burns Day into an intercultural event, as SFU always had a "piping in of the haggis" on Robbie Burns Day (Jan 25)); and it's not held on Chinese New Year, except when the Lunar New Year coincides with Robbie Burns Day or thereabouts; the event includes readings from Burns, including I think some translated into Chinese; e.g. "wee slikkit" (or "wee sleekit"?) is "tiny mouse" in Scots English (it's the opening words of one of Burns' most popular rhymes).Skookum1 06:02, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

• I suppose it is a term that is in common use here, but keeping in mind that Vancouver is still a part of Canada, an English and French speaking country. Our best idea would be to try and find an official travel guide either from the B.C. Government (B.C. Tourism) or the City of Vancouver that describes the event to see which name they use. The comparison would be Spanish in Vancouver use call España, but by Canadian standards everywhere and in the English-speaking world, Spain is the word used and written. Mkdw^talk 22:48, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry to disagree with you, Mkdw, but the name of the event is "Gung Haggis Fat Choy". There's no conflict whatsoever with WP:UE, as there is no "translated" name. The "Use English" conventions are intended for cases like Turin and Torino, where there is the possibility of confusion - the idea being that if there is a common English version, use it as opposed to a non-English version. --Ckatz^chat_spy 00:34, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, how do you say "Gung Haggis Fat Choy" in French anyway?Skookum1 01:34, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't see the relevence of this. Firstly, Gung Haggis Fat Choy would most likely borrow the use of the English (Canadian) spelling of it as described in WP:UE as per the second paragraph. However, if there is more than one name used for it, an English and Pinyin spelling of it, then stated under WP:EU you would use the english spelling. In the case of other festivals with common names: Chinese New Year (English), 春节 (Mandrin), and nouvelle année chinoise (French). Technically in this case you could use Gung Hei Fat Choy but that's just a step from 春节, so why aren't we using 春节? For the same reasons we should be using Chinese New Year over Gung Hei fat Choy. Just my opinion. Mkdw^talk 05:55, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

As explained above, but here for good measure, it's not the same as Chinese New Year, although I think it may be that its "first time out" was in a year when the Lunar New Year did coincide with Robbie Burns Day (or nearly; the 27th vs Burns Day's 25th). I have a "degree of separation" to the event's founder via SFU so I'll see what I can found out if he's come up with a Chinese translation for the name of the event; but I repeat - it's NOT the same as the event for which "Gung Hay Fat Choy" (as it's traditionall been transliterated into English, at least here in Vancouver until recently).Skookum1 06:07, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I think you're misreading my comments. I in no way stated Gung Haggis Fat Choy was remotely related to Gung Hei Fat Choy. If you read above I said, "In the case of other festivals" and then went on to use the Chinese New Year as an example of how in Canada, festivals have three names: their mandrin, Pinyin, and english names. I'm well aware of their differences in the festivals. Mkdw^talk 10:25, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, Toddish McWong must have come up with a Chinese name for the event, then, as he's been interviewed in the Chinese media; are you sure there's no Chinese-language web entries on it...of course I guess you'd have to know which character to google it with, wouldn't ya? Hmmm.....Skookum1 01:50, 28 November 2006 (UTC) Makes me wonder, further, if anyone's ever tried translating Lewis Carroll into Chinese ('Twas brillig, and the slithy toves...) or James Joyce for that matter; it's the tradition of those sorts of neologistic puns, which don't have to make sense (or not the usual sense) that the Gung Haggis Fat Choy name comes from, though not intentionally perhaps. But mostly this postscript is to observe that neither Mandarin nor Pinyin are "standard" in the historical Chinese culture in British Columbia, which used a different system to transliterate thet Vancouver dialect of Cantonese; which is why your Hei is usually seen here (historically) here as "Hay" and likewise other more-modern "new spellings" of Chinese transliterations. In this case that word is supplanted by "Haggis" so it's not an issue; "oat-and-barley-stuffed sheep's stomach with miscellaneous guts, pepper and salt" probably doesn't have a single word that could sum it up (?), so would there maybe be something like how Vancouver becomes Ban-ku-ba, i.e. hak-i-su or something? (using the -u ending which seems common in Japanese adapation, if not Chinese), e.g. naihu - knife.Skookum1 02:09, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

To heck with it; I just sent their website a query as to what name they use for it in Chinese, and what characters if any. They/he may answer here, as I linked him to the section/page for reference as to why we're asking.Skookum1 02:23, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Can I move this debate over the name of Gung Haggis Fat Choy to Talk:Gung Haggis Fat Choy? It certainly doesn't belong here as it's a total digression from my original question below. -TheMightyQuill 04:32, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

St. Pat's Parade, Greek Days and other intercultural happenings

Would Gung Haggis Fat Choy which already has its own article be a good example of harmony, either replacing or adding to the Dragon Boat Festival and Lunar New Year's Day Parade? -- TheMightyQuill 05:41, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

A side note, which might make MightyQuill grimace a bit given my edits elsewhere ;-) but it struck me when seeing this section that non-Asian events aren't mentioned, e.g. the St. Patrick's Day Parade, which also has a multi-ethnic flavour/context (especially since Vancouver's not known as an Irish ghetto). As with the demographics section, the self-fascination of Asian topics re Vancouver is more than a bit tiresome, and indicative of a certain prejudice/cultural egotism; I'd have added the St. Pat's Parade by now but I don't know enough about it to write even a stub, other than of course what day it's on. Canada Day, you'd think, would also be mentioned in the multicultural-events context. The flip side of the "tradition" of the Dragon Boat Races is that the REAL tradition in canoe-racing in BC was the old War Canoe Races on Dominion Day, which were a highlight of the city's annual calendar until they were forbidden as a result of the anti-Potlatch laws of 1922; although the audiences were from all backgrounds, all participants were the First Nations of the Coast and Fraser only.Skookum1 01:33, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Here's another event, although since it's held in Burnaby (but for Greater Vancouver) maybe it doesn't count: EurofestBC, which is on the May weekend (or thereabouts) at the Scandinavian Centre near Eight Rinks in Burnaby (in the angle of land between the freeway, Sprott and Kensington). Watching Serbs and Croats glare at each other from their respective baking booths is more than half the fun....Skookum1 01:45, 27 November 2006 (UTC) Diwali, also, seems to becoming more cross-cultural in recent years....Skookum1 01:45, 27 November 2006 (UTC) One more: the emergence of "fusion cuisine", which is a globaliing step up from normal "West Coast Fusion"....Skookum1 01:46, 27 November 2006 (UTC) Ooops - Greek Days is increasingly multicultural also, or rather I'm meaning "cross-cultural" as "multicultural" tends to also have a monoethnic meaning....Skookum1 01:47, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Awesome, when/where are Greek days? I think the increasing prominence of Diwali [1] can be backed up with references, and highlights the large South Asian population. Dragon Boat festival is pretty huge, so I wouldn't ignore it. I'm not sure St. Patrick's day parade is a display of racial tolerance anymore than celebrating Halloween is a sign of religious tolerance for Wicca. =) Besides, it hardly sets Vancouver apart. I've never actually heard of the Lunar New Year's Day Parade but I'd never heard of Gung Haggis Fat Choy (lit. trans: Congratulations and Best Wishes for Offal, oatmeal and stomach) outside of wikipedia either. On the other hand, the latter demonstrates the kind of fusion ocurring in Vancouver, and since it has an well referenced article already... -- TheMightyQuill 02:18, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

About Halloween in Vancouver: true enough it's not unique to Vancouver, but the city is known for being one of the North American cities which takes the night "more seriously" than most others; San Francisco and New Orleans supposedly celebrate it in high style, and I think New York (which does everything in high style, needless to say); but there's an "edge" on Vancouver's that's more than a bit "gothic" and grand guignol (as also San Fran and the Big Easy), including more adult involvement; in the UK for example and in most American cities it's more of a kid's thing, or heavily commercialized as the new trend in Haunted House events has turned into Big Business ($50 million this year, or more; saw it on a news special); but in Vancouver it spills over into the streets as an adult event (again, as also in San Fran and the Big Easy). Detroit has "Devil's Night", the 30th (my b-day, BTW), which is a regular nightmare - not as bad as it used to be, but at one time Detroit would see upwards of 300 major arsons on the night before Halloween...thankfully that doesn't happen here, although there's an extremely high rate of "tricks" of the vandalism variety. Not sure where to cite that but it's part of North American Halloween lore for years,Skookum1 07:16, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Greek Day is on West Broadway in the summer (I was there this year but can't remember which weekend), and while the vendors and entertainers are predominantly - and only predominantly - Greeks, there just aren't as many Greeks in Vancouver as there are people who throng West Broadway; actually it's only one day now so it's probably only "Greek Day"; it used to be the whole weekend before it was cancelled due to booze riots back in the '80s (as was also the fate of the old Sea Festival). It's one of those things where everyone's Greek for the day, as is the long tradition with St. Pat's, when everyone's Irish. And St. Pat's Parade, now only a few years old but one of the most popular and lively things in the city, is tantamount to Carnaval due to its timing and the "spring thaw" in the Vancouver psycho-bipolarity which is now set in, thanks to the last miserable month of rain and dark (one day I'll write a book featuring "the Vancouver syndrome", aka "Vancouveritis"); not quite as wild as Carnival or Mardi Gras, sadly enough, but turning into an all-round good time. And it's not so much about racial tolerance as cultural fusion; Chinese/Filipino step-dancers (i.e. Riverdance style in traditional Irish costumes), multiracial bhangra troupes bhangra, Finnish fiddle waltzers, Capoeira and samba outfits, West Indian bands (calypso and steel band), Irish and Scots and Welsh organizations, dance troupes and bands (it's pan-Celtic, unlike New York's or Chicago's, which are both pointedly Irish in flavour); I think the "Munin" Viking longship run by the Scandinavian Centre is towed through the parade - which runs down Granville but I'm not sure from where to where, and there's more of that kind of thing (floats of various kinds, but all non-commercial; i.e. no tacky bigbox-store advertising dorkiness like Toronto's Santa Claus Parade, which for those of us limited to broadcast TV was inflicted upon as by Global last Saturday morning - Vancouver's Santa Claus parade, or any parade here, doesn't of course rate being broadcast to Toronto...but for some reason they think we want to watch theirs, or should); I think St. Pat's also including some notable original bands/pop music, though no really big names (yet); IIRC the Yale Hotel has a blues-band float, for instance. It's easily the most cultural polyglot and crossover event of the year, despite being brand-new and in spite of the federal government's efforts to repaint Dominion Day that way (now named Canada Day, which always struck us old-timers as tacky). I think the Shriner's Gizeh Temple Band is also in the show, which in and of itself is intercultural (and I've heard a real Ottoman military band or "Mehter band" and the Shriners aren't that far off the real meal deal; I think I also recall seeing a salsa outfit, and there's definitely various high school brass bands, including some of the top-notch ones from the US; I'm pretty sure the HMCS Discovery brass band makes the show as well and so on it goes...postscript: belly dance troupes and Hawaiian dance troupes, all multiracial/multiethnic in composition; there's also a Lion Dance or Dragon Dance in the parade. It's quite the show, and if I'm in town I intend to get there in person this year (I hate crowds, as you might guess).Skookum1 05:42, 27 November 2006 (UTC) Postscript: just reviewing the Gung Haggis Fat Choy and Dragon Boat Races pages, I submit that the emergence of the St. Pat's Parade qualifies as far more intercultural/multiethnic than either the Dragon Boats or Gung Haggis, which are more bicultural in character.Skookum1 07:47, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Gung Haggis Fat Choy, on the other hand, is more pointedly Scots and Chinese, and IIRC the founder's name is also intercultural (Todd Wong aka "Toddish McWong") and he's of fifth generation Chinese origin; started by invitation to Wong by the SFU pipe band, it's also intercultural in nature although entirely Scots and Chinese in repertoire, and historically authentic in a couple of ways - the Scottish being the predominant non-First Nations ethnic group here pre-World War I, and there also being a long tradition of pipe bands in Hong Kong (and with Chinese pipers, although I think pipe bands in HK had Gurkha or Sikh or other South Asian British military as members also) due to the British military and cultural presence there; but pipe bands here have always had Chinese, Ukrainian, Scandinavian, German, Japanese and other flavours in their corps, as also in the main military bands. Be fun to see a pipe band try some bhangra sometime, maybe ;-).Skookum1 05:42, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Not sure where to put the Polar Bear Swim here, as it's just indigenous - although, contrary to popular folklore, it wasn't the first (see [[2]], although that currently redirects to Coney Island Polar Bear Club but should instead be a disambig; Coney Island's dates to 1903, ours only to 1920 (see [Polar Bear Swim google search] for others worldwide); what's interesting about ours is that it was founded by the Pantages family of theatre-circuit fame, who are still part of the city's upper-class social whirl; and there used to be a Pantages - a very nice Pantages - a Pantages Theatre, that is, down on the old theatre row, the Great White Way (Vancouver) (see Talk:Great White Way), which was from Main to Abbott/Cambie before it turned into what it is now (ahem) (needs an article, obviously). But the Polar Bear Swim is getting pretty colourful, other than the usual pornographic reindeer and other fun costumes; and it always was, as Vancouver's beach was never segregated in any way (hard to consider doing that when the boss lifeguard Joe Fortes was from Barbados or wherever). I think there was a dragon dance or lion dance that plunged into the water this year; I didn't go, although somewhere in all the junk in my house I've got eight or so participant buttons from the late '80s/early '90s; I'm not sure if it's the cold or the hangover (from the chocolatized vodka we used as prep) that keeps me from going anymore; maybe I'm just getting old.Skookum1 05:42, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

"Haggis" maybe could be represented by an ideogram - an neologistic ideogram maybe - of the character for a stomach overlaid by the characters for oats and "stuffed"; just speculating, if there's not already something in Chinese cuisine that's close to the concept (and I wouldn't be surprised...). Re Halloween and Wicca: Halloween, like Carnaval and Christmas, is more about the survival of ancient pagan traditions into the new calendar (unlike Carnaval and Christmas, it doesn't have directly Christian overtones; its importance forced the church to place All Saints and All Souls on the successive two days of the calendar, though); and I don't think Wicca should get the credit - holistic mother-earth touchy-feely-feelgood nature religions don't quite fit the bill if you know the history of druidic and pre-druidic worship (human sacrifice and all that); Wicca's a soft-core version of ancient Celtic paganism in my estimation, and has no a priori rites to Halloween; just as Christianity has coopted Yule/Jul as a Christian feast (when the poor little blighter was actually a Pisces, not a Capricorn...). 'Nuff for now, but all food for thought, huh?Skookum1 05:42, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Suggestion: as per the old War Canoe Races, and the Sea Festival in its original form, there are historical events in the city that are no more that should maybe have articles one day; same with old buildings like the original ExPark exhibition structures, the Orillia; the Birks Building and the Second Hotel Vancouver have articles now, but there are others. I'll put my sig on the end of all the paragraphs preceding so people can intersperse replies.Skookum1 05:42, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

One last shot though: the role of places like the Croatian Cultural Centre, which hosts non-Croatian events right and left, also the [ http://www.italianculturalcentre.ca/Italian Cultural Centre] and others, e.g. Cambrian Hall; but the Croatian Centre is notable for its Latin American and African events and music. I think perhaps the "racial tolerance" phrasing might be better re-termed "ethnic tolerance", as it's not always about race ("invisible minorities" and all that). A listing of all the various ethnic community clubs does seem a propos, e.g. the German and Polish Halls on Fraser, Cambrian Hall (Welsh), the Irish Community Centre on Prior, and so on).Skookum1 05:42, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

How could I forget - the Powell Street Festival (in Oppenheimer Park, which is a lot more than just Japanese culture meets junkie culture (though it's a lot of that). There's also the role of interdemoninational and universalist religions in the city's history, such as the Unitarian Church and others on "Religion Row" (south Oak).Skookum1 05:46, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

The Lunar New Year Parade was predominantly Chinese during its existence; it was on the opening day of the big Chinese New Year thing held in the PNE buildings, the Forum mostly I think, but word in the paper last week is it's not going to be held this year. Diwali is generally still South Asian (inherently multiethnic as Sikhs, Hindus and South Asian Muslims all celebrate it); but this year it seemed that there were a lot of non-South Asians hitting the stores for deals on Diwali sweets and specials on saris and silk/lamé and other specialty fabrics.Skookum1 05:58, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Maybe a useful link for all events: Links to Events Pages In and Around Vancouver, B.C.Skookum1 07:32, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Flag Wars

I've noticed the occasional dispute over whether to use Scotland's flag or the Union Jack's flag for the sister city section, so I checked out what the standard is for other cities on Wikipedia. I discovered that there is none. To the person who insists that sovereignty is the correct measure and therefore it should be the Union Jack, check out: Florence; Alexandria, Virginia; Sarasota, Florida; San Diego; Nice; Xi'an; Munich; and Tokyo for examples that use the Scottish flag instead of the Union Jack. Other cities don't mention sister cities at all. My guess is that the closest thing to a compromise is to use both flags (since both places are mentioned anyway), for which there are also plenty of precedents, such as: Sarasota, Florida; Havanna; Washington D.C.; Turin; Yantai; and Dunedin. Bobanny 17:15, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

just to note St. Andrew's Cross, without the lion shield, is found within the Union Jack. I think there's also some issue as to what the actual national flag of the UK is; the Union Jack, which is emblematic of the union and the state, or the monarch's standard, which is the embodiment of the state. A technical heraldic issue, truly, but an interesting aside. My sentiment's with the St. Andrew's flag...what's used for Cardiff or Swansea, if their sister cities have flag-links. Do they use the Welsh gryphon or the Union Jack?Skookum1 07:47, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Television and movie industry in Vancouver

I was surprised to see no mention at all about the growing television and movie industry in and around Vancouver. Several U.S. television shows are filmed in the area. Some even call Vancouver "Hollywood North." I think there should be a new category titled "Hollywood North" in quotes, along with a description of the industry and its history in Vancouver. There could also be a link to a more detailed article about the industry, as well as a section that lists all the TV shows and movies that have been and are being filmed in the Vancouver area.

There could also be links to TV-related sites like Hollywood North Report and official sites for shows that are filmed there, like Battlestar Galactica, Smallville, Stargate Atlantis, Stargate SG-1, and The X-Files (which was filmed in Vancouver during its early seasons). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123home123 (talk • contribs)

The article currently says "In recent years, Vancouver has become an increasingly important centre for software development, biotechnology and a vibrant film industry." Maybe you can add supporting details to the existing Hollywood North article. Though considering how poorly received nicknames are in Wikipedia, a Film industry in Vancouver article might be more appropriate. There's also a list of filming locations in and around Vancouver. --Ds13 16:26, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Hollywood North Report] is filmed here? Looks very Toronto...oh, I'm thinking of Entertainment Tonight Canada. Which brings to issue the fact that while Hollywood North is very much a Vancouver term, and originated here and within the non-Canadian industry (i.e. the non-Toronto-based film sector) it still means Vancouver/Greater Vancouver and its branch locations (including Calgary and Victoria, interestingly). But in Toronto-speak Hollywood North is all about T.O. and as we all know in Toronto show biz Vancouver is a blip except for its nice restaurants and the chance of running into stars in Yaletown bars; they've coopted Hollywood North as if it were only about them, just as they have also done with The Big Smoke (used also in the UK for London and Manchester, but from what I understand was genuinely coined here). The Hollywood North article when I found it barely mentioned Vancouver, but obsessed over T.O. based shows and the Mock Walk of Fame on Yonge Street (look, T.O....there's only one Hollywood Boulevard, OK? And only one Broadway...and I don't mean ours). Whatever; just a heads-up about the Hollywood North thing and the associated article; it needs monitoring because earnest types from the Centre of the Universe insist on writing it to up-play their version of reality. Since they are the only reality, that is, at least if you listen to the media in this country....Skookum1 07:42, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

City of Vancouver or Greater Vancouver Area?

The classification box should read "City of Vancouver" instead of simply "Vancouver" since it appears to be the Wikipedia standard to use the "official" name of any country, nation-state, American state, etc. in such classification boxes. Further, I notice alot of articles about Vancouver's neighbouring municipalities that do not mention the official names of such municipalities. Why simply say "Delta" when one should be saying "The Incorporation of Delta" when the government website of that municipality uses such as a legalistic title? I know that lawyers are the only type of people who really care about municipal boundaries and official names, but this is still Wikipedia and all the technical and legalistic details should be mentioned. After all, municipalities, whether a city, town, township, village, etc., are merely creations of the law of incorporation.

I was wondering if any person living in the Greater Vancouver Area had a hand in writing this article because there is lack of distinction being made between the City of Vancouver (i.e. Vancouver proper) and the surrounding municipalities such as the City of Burnaby, City of Richmond, etc. Until the Greater Vancouver Area undergoes the type of municipal amalgamations as seen in the Toronto, Ottawa and Hamilton areas, this important distinction must be made. This article should not use the simple word "Vancouver" to mean the larger metro area that includes Burnaby, Richmond, etc. Doing so would be very confusing to a reader in view of the Greater Vancouver Area map with all those municipal boundaries drawn in.

--User:Alf74 17:35, 04 December 2006 (UTC)

Encyclopedias attempt to avoid jargon or other types of inaccessible, esoteric language because they are written for a general audience, not lawyers. Wikipedia is not a legal dictionary. Lawyers and the Law do not define the world, and Vancouver has an authentic existence outside of the legal imagination. Most people involved in the article live in Vancouver. No one here calls it the "Greater Vancouver Area," and when people say "Vancouver," you can usually tell by the context, same with the article, when it matters. The distinction between Greater and regular Vancouver is clearly spelled out in the first paragraph, and thereafter when it's relevant. When Frank Sinatra sang "I love New York," was he referring to Manhattan, or all five Borroughs? Was anyone confused by that? Doubt it. Bobanny 04:03, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I assume you mean he meant all five boroughs (sic) which he did (what with Brooklyn and the Bronx esp.) And yeah, generally we know by context when it's Vancouver or Greater Vancouver that's being talked about; for purposes of the universe, Burnabyites like myself are from Vancouver; for local purposes we're not - even if we work there. I agree with the previous poster on some aspects- it's a given in this article, as previously decided (I think?) that matters such as census figures, neighbourhoods, parks, people from Vancouver, night life/culture, and so on, this article is limited to the city boundaries; in terms of general history I notice it's also limited largely to the city boundaries, such as with the First Nations history section where we don't bother (so far) mentioning the Tsawwwassen, Kwayquitlam, Kwantlen, and Katzie (all in the GVRD; Squamish and Tsleil-wau-tuth are included so far because their traditional territories include the CoV, even though their existing reserves and villages are all on the North Shore (not CoV, obviously). Anyway, I think for the purposes of the encyclopedia it's mandatory that certain things are specified; we're not writing only for locals who already know what we mean re context.Skookum1 07:37, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay, you got me on the spelling, but the POV in the song is of someone from nowheresville, USA, fantasizing about going to NY to make it big in showbiz - that could be Manhattan, or NYC writ large. But what small town guy's imagining when he thinks New York is Manhattan, which is like our CoV. As with most big cities, it's a hub, a downtown core that services the entire metro area. Saying "Vancouver" is not just a matter of local pride or arrogance, like when we say "back east" and piss off the Newfies because we mean Toronto. The entertainment, financial, and red light districts for you people in Burnaby are in CoV, even if sometimes you do those things closer to home. When you say, "I'm going downtown," I'm guessing you usually mean downtown Vancouver. Being ultra-specific would only confuse outsiders even more, and it wouldn't necessarily be more correct, because Burnaby, for example is in Vancouver, which is short for Greater Vancouver (it would be the same to demand specificity on what neighbourhood we're talking about, i.e., often irrelevant). As the article is now, Van proper or Greater Vancouver are specified where that distinction is relevant. My concern is that legalistic or official definitions are sometimes taken on Wikipedia as the ultimate authority (something you've taken issue with before, Skookum) when the reality that we live in is often something quite different. For the First Nations history, in the main article anyway, it refers to the Sto:lo, which I thought encompassed the GVRD territory. If not, perhaps there's a broader group that could be used? Coast Salish, maybe, though that extends well beyond GVRD. But that's not something I know a lot about, so I'll shut up now...Bobanny 18:11, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Sto:lo ("People of the River") is a latter-day amalgam of the communities of the Upriver Salish and Downriver Salish-speakers; Musqueam is Downriver. i.e. the other Sto:lo bands - in Mission, Matsqui, Sumas, Chilliwack, Hope, Yale (Chehalis speaks a dialect of Upriver but is not part of the Sto:lo federation) do not have territorial claims on GVRD turf; but if GVRD is the defining parameter the Tsawwassen should be mentioned, and also the Kwantlen and Katzie and Kwayquitlam; there's a New Westminster Band that's tryint to be revived after dying out a hundred years ago but until it's got more substance it need not be mentioned). "Coast Salish" is not a people, although quite often it's used as if it were in the press and here also in Wikipedia; but it's a language/ethnographic group; sometimes natives use it as shorthand rather than trying to explain the difference between a Penelakut and a Pentlatch and a Tsawout but the preference is for the individual nation-names. The Musqueam and Tsawwassen and Tseil-wau-tuth all speak the same language (any of them that speak it, that is), but they're not the same people/nation.

Other than that agree with your comments about Burnaby; except Burnaby's red light district is south Kingsway (nearly anywhere)....and yeah, Maverick's doesn't qualify as nightlife, nor "Pub Med"; the happening nightlife places in the 'burbs are in Port Coquitlam and Surrey, as it happesn (;gaaah!).Skookum1 19:35, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Pauline Johnson

I've requested a peer review for this article. If you're interested in giving some feedback, click here. Thanks, Bobanny 00:22, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Port

Vancouver's port exports more cargo than any other port in Norht America...what about New York or Los Angeles?? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by TotallyTempo (talk • contribs) 21:23, 7 December 2006 (UTC).

Do you have numbers for those cities that cause you to doubt Vancouver's status? From the reference in this article: "The Port of Vancouver is North America's gateway for Asia-Pacific trade. It is large by world standards. In North America, it ranks #1 in total foreign exports. On the West Coast, it ranks #3 in total cargo volume and #3 for full foreign containers. In Canada it ranks #1 in total cargo handled and #1 in total container throughput." The link also gives numerical stats for comparison. Those are 2005 numbers. --Ds13 22:39, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Also, reference #6 in the article, predates this comment by about 8 months, gives the source of that fact. The source is the Vancouver Port Authority in relation to the City of Vancouver government and Statisics Canada. Both of which are the most credible sources. Mkdw^talk 22:51, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

It's also a bit of a PR game. I believe the ref states that Vancouver exports the most by weight, which in economic terms isn't the important consideration, value is. It probably also is indicative that the Canadian economy is still largely resource-dependent (those trees are heavy!) despite the growth of the service and information sectors, whereas the Yanks likely ship out more value-added stuff. I'm guessing China probably has impressive numbers by volume, but that a lot of that volume would be things like Hello Kitty pencil cases. But for our purposes, it's less to sound impressive than a convenient way to concisely emphasize that it's a heckuvva busy and lucrative port.Bobanny 23:39, 13 December 2006 (UTC)