Talk:Uppsala Mafia
ChinaUpdater[edit]
This information is well sourced, certainly notable, and independent of any problems with a banned editor. I will be making further modifications. I am working with other editors. Writer's Cramp (talk) 04:27, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
This Artilce Should Not Be Deleted[edit]
I am not a banned user. I am not ChinaUpdater. The contents of this article are well sourced by third parties. I am currently engaged in making substantial edits. Moreover, the ban is against a user, not against particular information. If this information can withstand scrutiny and stand on it's own, there is no legitimate reason for it being deleted. The people who use Wikipedia have the right to know about a documented entity like the Uppsala Mafia. Writer's Cramp (talk) 04:40, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
Reliable Sourcing and Verbatim Quotes[edit]
I have gone through every source cited in this article. I find that the article quotes the sources verbatim, making it impossible to edit without generating a misquote. If anyone has evidence that these verbatim quoted sources are wrong, they should present that evidence instead of deleting whole articles without due process.
Again, I must emphasize that what has been banned from Wikipedia is a user named ChinaUpdater, not any specific information. If Wikipedia is going to insist on deleting and banning notable, well sourced information, then it's safe to call Wikipedia a sham more akin to Orwell's 1984, than to any semblance of an encyclopedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Icouce (talk • contribs) 04:56, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
- I find it quite interesting that you, who claims not to be ChinaUpdater, can recreate this just as he had written it when you as a non admin don't have access to the deleted edits. How do you explain that? — Rlevse • Talk • 10:53, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
- 1. Where I got the data -
- 1a. I saved the FederalLibrarian Wiki source code on the edits.
- 1b. Many editors such as myself are saving source code of edits to pages on Wikipedia, in anticipation of mass deletion attempts by certain editors and admins.
- 1c. Wikipedia stores edits in a publicly available place if you know where to look, even after deletion, and even if they are not saved.
- 2. I and others are not MP or SP -
- 2a. I am legitimately editing on Wikipedia as a private citizen and systems expert, not in the capacity of a government employee or otherwise, and during my own private time.
- 2b. I am completely independent of ChinaUpdater and FederalLibrarian, with my own agenda to get the whole uncensored truth out there, and expose abuses on Wikipedia.
- 2c. One Federal Library (or other publicly available internet network) has a single computer and internet address.
- 2c (i) This does not mean that editors using it sequentially are the same person, nor that they are Mtpppts or Sckpppts of any single editor.
- 2c (ii) I always assume editor and admin good faith… at first.
- 2c (iii) Editors and Admins might have, understandably, erroneously argued WPSP and WPMP, because of a cursory investigation, and erroneously indefd multiple editors in the past on multiple occasions, then blocked the talk pages, so no one could respond, unless editors were in personal communication.
- 2c (iv) I assume editors and admins are acting in good faith, but given the clear bad faith repeatedly demonstrated by [admin] and [85 FTC] and [85 disambig], and the context of editing articles about internationally reported organized crime rings using computers to act, this stretches an assumption of good faith to its limit.
- 2d. Of course, with even their talk pages shut down, ChinaUpdater and others can not argue their own cases, and I do not know who all has been shut down.
- 3. Wiki Abuse by Editors and Admins -
- * 3a. It is clear to many, from “dis” - ambiguations like this [85 ] and this [gentleman], what is going on.
- * 3b. It is clear what is really going on from edits such as this delink, in which a single letter was deleted from “Kimball”, to make “Kimbal”, or to break a valid link. [KDR name delinked].
- 3b. Certain administrators and editors who are familiar with NRS, appear are using Wikipedia to advertise anyway, then cover up their activities when exposure is around the corner, like this [ admin deletion ], and this [ gentleman deletion], all out in very public view.
- 4. I am an eye witness to ChinaUpdater’s email, computer, and two cell phones being hacked, and the hard drive wiped.
- 4a. ChinaUpdater’s email was hacked during transmission of information on Wiki abuses and the Uppsala Mafia to senior investigators located at the US Office of the Secret Service, computer crimes and commercial crimes division.
- 4b. Immediately following the transmission, ChinaUpdater’s computer hard drive was blanked.
- 4c. In anticipation of further mass deletions, many persons, such as myself, saved the Wiki source code of the edits on Uppsala Mafia, following FederalLibrarian’s edits, anticipated because of the above, and other reasons I will not disclose.
- 4d. My own email account was hacked in a manner identical to ChinaUpdaters. I have been contacted by the highest level of local government investigations regarding the ChinaUpdater transmission on Uppsala Mafia which followed the email hacking, and was immediately followed by ChinaUpdater’s computer hard drive data being lost.
- 5. As I will be putting in my own edits of Uppsala Mafia, Scottland Yard is investigating per publicly available info
here [1].
- 5a. One would certainly expect that when the Chairman of a Los Angeles para-“police commission” and “Chairman of the Board of Directors” of a para-“transit authority”, issuing “HOMELAND SECURITY” badges to cross Sheriff lines, in an international crime investigation, that other agencies are likely investigating to.
- 5 b. One would expect investigations when reliably sourced information on convicted felons and international crime rings is deleted, such deletions would be looked at with scrutiny from without.
- 5 c. Email correspondence between Wiki Editors requires court authority to monitor, (one would expect likely obtained, given the historic nature of the felony convictions, and overt “fraud by deletion” activities on Wikipedia that parallel the “schemes and practices” referred to in the now “deleted” pages on KDR.)
- 6. Because of the “disambiguation” which is really an “amiguation”, and other deletions of reliably sourced information, and acrtivies spilling out of virtual space, MANY people are now monitoring certain Wikipedia edits, and the editors and administrators who make them, the pages on the associations, and saving the source code information on pages with information that is anticipated to be deleted by possibly colluding administrators and editors.
- 7. For more, see “FTC Chat” here[ ] and here[ ], a clear NN and Advert and NRS situation, and also BurgerKingFinatic and his previous incarnation’s edits, and the overt advertisement by an associated Wikipedia administrator here [ ] .
- 8 I will fill out the links above, after returning from the federal library of conviction records in another city and county, and getting certain sentencing and probation reports, this morning. Please do not blank the page until I can fully respond with more information.Writer's Cramp (talk) 14:47, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
- Not a meatpuppet or sockpuppet of User:ChinaUpdater? Let's see:
- Icouce has 47 edits at the moment and has only edited June 20, almost all on China related topics, and Oct 21, 23, 29, focused almost exclusively on AAI and related pages, all in 2009
- ChinaUpdater has 343 edits from June 20 to Oct 23 (under that name, not counting known socks), about half in June-Sept on various topics with a heavy interest in China related pages and the rest btwn Oct 16-23 focused almost exclusively on AAI and related pages.
- You both are from the same metro area and edit at the same times of day
- Of the four mainspace articles you have edited (Yasheng Group, Silk Route Museum, ISO14000, and Uppsala Mafia), ChinaUpdater has two of them (Yasheng Group and Silk Route Museum).
- Icouce voted for "delete" TWICE at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Allied Artists International, [2] and [3], note that you used your sig block to visually sign as "Writer's cramp" one but it's actually another vote from you. Why are doing that? Plus ChinaUpdater voted once, plus there was IP action related to you both
- This comment from above "Many editors such as myself are saving source code of edits to pages on Wikipedia, in anticipation of mass deletion attempts by certain editors and admins." admits there is collusion going on offwiki amongst several editors in what is obviously a major debate/disagreement among two competing camps
- This comment from above "I am an eye witness to ChinaUpdater’s email, computer, and two cell phones being hacked, and the hard drive wiped." admits you know and have talked to ChinaUpdater
- You reposted his deleted article verbatim
- ChinaUpdater was indef blocked by another admin for disruptive editing and you reposted those edits
- All this reeks of meatpuppetry or sockpuppetry.
- ...More later. — Rlevse • Talk • 22:57, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
- Let's look at Icouce and ChinaUpdater's edits on 20 June 2009 (all of Icouce's edits and pertinetn ones of ChinaUpdater's)...
- Icouce 21:36, June 20, 2009 (hist | diff) Yasheng Group
- Icouce 21:24, June 20, 2009 (hist | diff) Silk Route Museum
- Icouce 21:21, June 20, 2009 (hist | diff) Silk Route Museum
- Icouce 21:17, June 20, 2009 (hist | diff) Yasheng Group
- Icouce 21:16, June 20, 2009 (hist | diff) Yasheng Group
- Icouce 21:15, June 20, 2009 (hist | diff) Yasheng Group
- Icouce 21:13, June 20, 2009 (hist | diff) Yasheng Group
- Icouce 21:09, June 20, 2009 (hist | diff) Yasheng Group
- ChinaUpdater 20:57, June 20, 2009 (hist | diff) Yasheng Group (→Chemical Operations)
- ChinaUpdater 20:45, June 20, 2009 (hist | diff) N Gansu Yasheng Group (←Redirected page to Yasheng Group) (top)
- ChinaUpdater 20:23, June 20, 2009 (hist | diff) Silk Route Museum
- Icouce 20:16, June 20, 2009 (hist | diff) Silk Route Museum
- Icouce 20:10, June 20, 2009 (hist | diff) Silk Route Museum
- ChinaUpdater 20:01, June 20, 2009 (hist | diff) Yasheng Group
- Icouce 19:59, June 20, 2009 (hist | diff) Silk Route Museum
- Icouce 19:55, June 20, 2009 (hist | diff) Silk Route Museum
- Icouce 19:51, June 20, 2009 (hist | diff) Silk Route Museum
- Icouce 19:51, June 20, 2009 (hist | diff) Silk Route Museum
- Icouce 19:49, June 20, 2009 (hist | diff) Silk Route Museum
- Icouce 19:48, June 20, 2009 (hist | diff) Silk Route Museum
- ChinaUpdater 19:48, June 20, 2009 (hist | diff) Mei Ping Wu
- ChinaUpdater 18:30, June 20, 2009 (hist | diff) Mei Ping Wu
- Icouce 18:00, June 20, 2009 (hist | diff) Yasheng Group
- ChinaUpdater 18:02, June 20, 2009 (hist | diff) User talk:Wuhwuzdat (→Please help with new editor)
- Icouce 17:58, June 20, 2009 (hist | diff) Yasheng Group
- ChinaUpdater 17:58, June 20, 2009 (hist | diff) Yasheng Group
- ChinaUpdater 17:57, June 20, 2009 (hist | diff) Silk Route Museum
- Icouce 17:56, June 20, 2009 (hist | diff) Yasheng Group
- ChinaUpdater 17:56, June 20, 2009 (hist | diff) User talk:Wuhwuzdat (→Please help with new editor: new section)
- Icouce 17:33, June 20, 2009 (hist | diff) Yasheng Group
- ChinaUpdater 17:32, June 20, 2009 (hist | diff) Chinese art
- Icouce 17:18, June 20, 2009 (hist | diff) Yasheng Group
- Icouce 17:17, June 20, 2009 (hist | diff) Yasheng Group
- Icouce 17:12, June 20, 2009 (hist | diff) Silk Route Museum (40mins after created by ChinaU)
- ChinaUpdater 17:05, June 20, 2009 (hist | diff) Gansu
- ChinaUpdater 16:57, June 20, 2009 (hist | diff) N Silk Road Museum (←Created page with 'Go to Silk Route Museum') (Tag: very short new article)
- ChinaUpdater 16:56, June 20, 2009 (hist | diff) Silk Road Project
- Icouce 16:55, June 20, 2009 (hist | diff) Yasheng Group
- Icouce 16:53, June 20, 2009 (hist | diff) Yasheng Group
- ChinaUpdater 16:51, June 20, 2009 (hist | diff) User talk:Sparkit (→Silk Route Museum: new section)
- ChinaUpdater 16:48, June 20, 2009 (hist | diff) Silk Route Museum
- Icouce 16:40, June 20, 2009 (hist | diff) Yasheng Group
- Chinaupdater 16:32, June 20, 2009 (hist | diff) N Talk:Silk Route Museum (Note the N means "NEW")
...So Icouce, a new account edits several of the same articles as ChinaU on his very first day, then later admits he knows him, and reposts a deleted article of ChinaU's verbatim.... — Rlevse • Talk •
Note: another ChinaUpdater sock has been found, User:FederalLibrary, by Checkuser Alison and she has blocked and tagged it. — Rlevse • Talk • 00:07, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
As it is quite obvious that there is meatpuppetry, editing on behalf of an indef'd user, and Socking going on in this matter. I have blocked User:Icouce for one week with a stern warning to cease activity and postings that violate wiki policy. Note that two checkusers have verified the confirmed socking going on here. Also note that CU evidence does not rule out Icouce being ChinaUpdater, some would even call them being the same user 
Likely. — Rlevse • Talk • 00:27, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
- I concur with this, and have carried out a followup check. This one's
Likely - Alison ❤ 00:33, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
Feds' findings of fact[edit]
Here we are again. First off, this sockpuppetry has got to stop—it is getting rather ridiculous. So continues the Allied Artists International saga....
- Funny enough, there is a degree of connection between Kim Richards↔Ashley Posner↔Yosuf "Yo" Maiwandi↔Bo Stefan Eriksson. (The first three are Facebook friends, and Allied's press releases put Posner with Richards. Media reports also link the latter three.)
- Ashley David Posner is a real attorney. There is a disciplinary note on Posner's Bar Association record. According to IMDB (i.e. possibly user-contributed content) Richards and Posner worked together on films in the 1980s (e.g. this).
- We know from before that Richards had some trouble with the law. (Documented at the former Allied Artists International talk page, but basically, he was convicted for frauds in the late 1980s resulting from business deals through Allied.)
- Eriksson, Posner and Maiwandi were involved in the San Gabriel Valley Transit Authority/Police Department (incorporated, now defunct: [4], [5]), which was itself wrapped up in the crash of a Ferrari Enzo—which was very widely reported, everywhere from Wired (very thorough article), to local news, to all the major news outlets.
- Eriksson is a known criminal, as attested by numerous media reports. (See sources in his WP article, for example.)
- But that's no reason to bring the whole Allied Artists situation into this—I could find no media reports linking Allied or Richards to Eriksson's criminal enterprises in Uppsala (the "Mafia") or the failed Gizmondo venture, or the Ferrari Enzo crash, or the SGVTA.
So let's make this short and sweet:
- We can't reasonably talk about Kim Richards or Allied Artists in this article, just because they're mutual acquaintances. We need reliable sources to verify an actual criminal association. Unsourced accusations of criminality are very clearly contrary to the WP:BLP policy.
- This "article" isn't even about the real Uppsala Mafia—that was Eriksson's criminal operation dating back to his days in Sweden. They're very notable as major criminals, and have been covered extensively. This article should be rewritten completely to cover that, and until that happens, redirected to Stefan Eriksson.
- The Ferrari crash is notable (huge media coverage), and there's a summary at Stefan Eriksson. The SGVTA/SGVTPD can be mentioned, along with Maiwandi, because news reports (see Wired, for example) clearly link them to the case.
Moreover:
- Why bother talking about Richards' "knighthood"? (In the context of this article who cares where it's from, or whether it's real?)
- When you write "According to the Washington Monthly, Posner’s Police Commission antiterrorist unit has not outsourced to Dubai. [44], but According to Posner and Richards’ Allied Artists International website, they have hired “Dean” Dahab, (not the “Dean” of Kimball Dean Richards), a “monitoring” expert associated with Northrop Grumman, to operate out of Dubai. [45] [46]", it makes you look crazy. That paragraph says, in effect: "SGVTA has nothing to do with Dubai. Allied Artists hired someone to work from Dubai." Non sequitur.
You can't just assume that every little connection between these people is material to the article, and disgorge them into a mess like this. You've got to substantiate things. You started with things that are accepted and verifiable, but then constructed elaborate webs of conspiracy from nothing but the fact that they know each other, and have unrelated, but checkered pasts. (That tendency to link facts in improbable ways is a hallmark of some conspiracy theorists I've encountered. Please don't be like them. They actually are crazy.) TheFeds 01:33, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
THE Tautological TRUTH[edit]
- I am using a public computer on a shared open wireless, and am no ones MP or SP, and will do the appropriate notifications per WP:SP and WP”MP, etc.
- The five flesh editors, none MP or SP, share public library computers, and share open access wireless, but do not known how to properly announce this per WP:LAW on avoiding accusations of WP:SP and WP:MP. I will show them how in the flesh, as long as everyone agrees not to accuse me of WP:Puppeteer-ing as a result.
- I am an edit warrior of the Sarah Palin edit wars, who was made to disappear “through the looking glass” by McCain/Palin’s Wiki editors, after I sourced the Muthee thing on Palin funding witch hunting in order to become governor.
- I write about para-“homeland security” ops like Chairman Posner’s SGVTA “homeland security”, which slipped by Sheriff’s secured areas.
- Wikipedia is being used to commit internet Fraud – See edits of WarriorBoy85, TechnicalExcellence, BurgerKingFinatic, and two Admins (both currently under investigation by the Federal Library gang, and the real “the feds”. (One of the admins deleted his longstanding ADVERT page, and check out the FTC Chat history and follow the edit history and links, and it will be clear.)
- The frauds and adverts continue on other pages (follow the early edit histories, e.g., FTC Chat), and you will find two Admins involved in the current situation, and follow edit histories (including of deleted pages) of the above editors, and their “supporters”, and all will be clear, with an NRS and COI check.
- There are five INEPENDENT “lumps of flesh”.
- None are MPs.
- There are two SPs at the Federal Library, Buster.
- There are FIVE “Lumps of Flesh” in one city, in the “Federal Library gang”.
- NONE are MPs of the other, as they argue and bicker constantly about the content of each others edits at Wiki; ChinaUpdater, Hong Kong John, Writers Cramp, FederalLibrarian, and FederalLibrary; and there are four more fleshies, in the Federal Library gang, one in Shanghai, one in Gansu province, one at Stanford University, and one at Massachuset Institue of Technology. Many more fleshies edit at Wiki, and are all affiliated through the real Huxley Family and the Thomas Henry Huxley X Club, est. 1864.
- But stopping fraud at Wiki, and
- User:TheFeds is correct about Dubai, but only partially so: Posner’s SGVTA para-police “Homeland Security” and Kimball “Dean” and Posner’s “Northrop Grumman” “Director” from “IATA”, the Dubai-Uppsala Fleshies, are all under investigation by “Scotland Yard” for more bank and internet fraud, per LA Times and others, and one might expect similarly by the real homeland security they impersonated, as can be seen by a simple google of the right combinations of their aka’s.
- User:Rlevse is in good faith, but incorrect about who he thinks are MP and SP, as there is only ONE SP, still unused and undiscovered by Wikipedians, but who can now be turned off, Buster.
- Many use the same computer, and same wireless, at the Federal Library, but none are MP or SP, as they are always arguing in the flesh about the stupidity of each other’s edits/
- You might check that ChinaUpdater and Writers Cramp (ICouce)
- Icouce did NOT Vote twice.
- Icouce wrote something about ISO400, which no one else understands, and wrote a bunch of lightweight trivia on Yasheng Group and Silk Route Museum, and was laghed at by the other Fleshies.
- Icouce and ChinaUpdater
- Remember, there is no Flesh version of a WP:Cabal, as most of the X Club are now dead, and the rest are all in disagreement, certainly not MPs, with only one SP, Buster.
- This Allied Artists thing is - a branch of our Sara Palin wars, and all are X Clubbers, and none are MP or SP, but disagree on and off Wiki, except one, Buster.
- A reliably sourced article about Ashley Posner, Chairman of the SGVTA (there should be a Redirect of SGVTA to San Gabriel Valley Transit Authority), Chairman of the SGVTA para-“police commission” and its “homeland security”, and counsel to KDR and “Allied Artists”, can and should be written
- : Posner’s article can have branches, links, to Eriksson, SGVTA, Kimball Dean Richards, etc. articles.
- All of these can be written as branches under Ashley Posner with reliable sources: 1) “Sir Knight Kimball Dean Richards III” (and his and Posner’s “Consolidated Allied”, Allied Artists, Allied Artists International, etc. under this article) 2) “SGVTA” should be redirected to San Gabriel Valley Transit Authority, and 30 Chairman Posner’s SGVTA Board of Directors and Chairman of its “Homeland Security” para-police force “police Commission, should be named per sources), Uppsala Mafia.
- KDR should be taken out of Uppsala Mafia, and put under Ashley Posner, and under IATA, and under his own article.
- The “Dean”-Dubai-IATA thing should only be under Posner, KDR and IATA articles, as User:TheFeds correctly points out.
- Allied Artists Pictures should have an article, with Monogram as a section, not the other way around, like some distorted Cabaret. Even admins contributed.
- No mention of ANYTHING “following the dissolution of Allied Artists Pictures” in 1979, (like the “successor in interest” nonsense), should be in the Allied Artists Pictures article.
- Papillon should be let out of solitary confinement.
- Sean Connery’s comment on Allied Artists Pictures should be included, but NOT with NRS IMDb sources, since, after all, as Sgt. Brooks says,
- “It’s like a James Bond Story”!
- ChinaUpdater, Ms.W, should be unblocked after two weeks, which should give her time to cool off and slow down.
- User:FederalLibrarian, Ms.P, should be unblocked after a month, and immediately on her talk pages.
- FederalLibrary, Mr.R, should not use his librarian as MP, as it is sexist for a male to use a female like that.
- WritersCramp, Mr.C, must be immediately unblocked, per Wiki law, but SHOULD be blocked for a week, going outside Wiki law, to cool off from the effect of the incorrect block, and RLevse’s good faith, but incorrect, edit listing, in which Mr.C and Ms.W did simultenous edits (same minute even) from different cities, and even undid parts of each others edits, because they are the OPPOSITE of MP’s.
- Buster, Mr.RealFedsSenatorFeinstein’s guy, is busted, (as MP?), but should be forgiven because of a good faith Necessity defense, as an attempt to stop Wiki from being used to commit further internet fraud, and there still is FTC Chat on Wiki.
- WarriorBoy85, Mr.R, should be allowed to leave a virtual paper trail, and sing on the talk pages, but not put in NRS stuff, but the two (or more) Admins behind him should be permanently banned.
- No one likes to be blocked, as I was for so long, from the Sarah Palin (and related Thomas Muthee) edit wars (my CBS news story source on Palin’s rise to Governor and power came from her watching a Muthee video, after which she funded Muthee’s witch hunting in Kenya, and this is still Wiki:Censored and deleted, and I was blocked without a chance to reply on my own talk page, or anywhere at Wiki, so I did not.)
- Using bullet points, as was argued above, does NOT make User:Icouce (WritersCramp). NOR User:Rlvese, NOR User:TheFeds a MP or SP of ChinaUpdater!
- Editors who know each other in the flesh, or share some overlapping edit interests, does not make them MP’s, and certainly not SP’s.
- Editors should have a chance to respond prior to a block, especially if they are accused on a talk page, or elsewhere, and can not defend themselves or respond in any way. A new Wiki law on this should be considered, as Wiki is not The [[Inquisition], and all editors who are discussed should have a right to “face” their accusers, and respond.
- There is no Federal Library / Sarah Palin / Thomas Muthee / Kenya / X Club, Wiki:CABAL.
- But there is an interesting Uppsala “coincidence”, as my flesh girlfriend at the time, Ms.A, won the Linnaeus Lectureship in 2008, and I was to go to Uppsala with her, but my own flesh mother got bad symptoms from her multiple myloma blood cancer, just before the ceremony in Uppsala so I could not go. Uppsala in February is a poor choice of seasons for an award anyway. My own flesh mother died shortly after the Uppsala ceremony. (ChinaUpdater and WritersCramp, don’t worry, this was not another plot by the Uppsala Mafia, nor something coming out of the IATA in Dubai or Gizmondo.)
- There is no Federal Library / Sarah Palin / Thomas Muthee / Kenya / X Club, Wiki:CABAL.
signed – through the glass darkly, User:Tautologist, Mr.D. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.126.128.184 (talk) 15:22, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
- Since here you admit you are evading your block of Icouce as an IP, and also admit you're a sock of the indef'd Tautologist, you are indef'd now also. Furthermore you are wrong on several points, such as Icouce, you, did vote twice at the AFD, and this stmt of yours is as rambling and incoherent as the article. — Rlevse • Talk • 20:05, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
Error Correcting Previous Version[edit]
I accidentally edited a prior version that existed before the redirect was placed. I didn't realize it until after I saved the edit. I performed an undo to correct my own error. My apologies. Atama was completely correct in redirecting to the proper article with no WP: BLP violations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TechnicalExcellence (talk • contribs) 15:48, 9 November 2009 (UTC)