Talk:Ultraviolence (album)/Archive 1

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Archive 1

'Ultraviolence' not 'Ultra-Violence'

Resolved

The album title is one word: Ultraviolence. Lana has used it in a Youtube comment from her 'LanaDelRey' channel recently. Although she typed it in all caps (ULTRAVIOLENCE) this doesn't really affect the entry title because Wikipedia ignores stylistic capitalisation (like ARTPOP/Artpop). There is /no/ evidence at all that the album title will be two hyphenated words. Many music websites and articles are already citing the album as 'Ultraviolence' on their 2014 album prediction articles. Mpwilliams (talk) 21:32, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

We should title the article based on reliable sources, not YouTube comments. I am not saying you are wrong for suggesting the article should be moved to Ultraviolence, just offering a reminder. What are reliable sources calling the album? --Another Believer (Talk) 21:40, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
For example, NME: http://www.nme.com/news/lana-del-rey/74237 I understand that we shouldn't any Youtube comment as a source but when the actual artist communicates via social media, it should count as the most accurate source. Lady Gaga's article is backed up by her Twitter all the time. Lana does reply to Youtube comments on her own videos. And like Littlecarmen says, it's a reference to the movie 'A Clockwork Orange.' Mpwilliams (talk) 20:29, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
YouTube comments should not be considered reliable. I would still argue that we should just wait for confirmation, but I am not concerned if someone chooses to move the article to Ultraviolence (album). --Another Believer (Talk) 20:34, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
Having just expanded the article slightly and formatted the references, I think there is a pretty even split between the two spellings. I think we should just wait until sources publish more detailed information. --Another Believer (Talk) 23:01, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
The title is taken from A Clockwork Orange in which the word is spelled "ultraviolence" so I think that spelling would make the most sense. We should at least consistently use one spelling in this and other articles mentioning the article. Littlecarmen (talk) 19:05, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Sources

--Another Believer (Talk) 18:12, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

West Coast (song)

I created West Coast (song) for when the time is right to start a separate article for the song. Someone else created West Coast (Lana Del Rey song), which I redirected, since her name is not required for further disambiguation. --Another Believer (Talk) 19:11, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

--Another Believer (Talk) 19:14, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

It's been officially released and there's already reaction, so there should be a separate page for it already. --Matt723star (talk) 15:32, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 1

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: (non-admin closure) Withdrawn—I agree with some of the concerns here. The page has not yet established itself as a primary topic and this move can be requested again if it meets the criteria, particularly by usage. —JennKR | ☎ 21:07, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Ultraviolence (album) → Ultraviolence – The band named Ultraviolence held the page until I moved it to Ultraviolence (band) to make way for the Lana Del Rey album (I thought I could move the pages w/o admin intervention) The band page hasn't seen much significant activity over the years, while this upcoming album is far more notable and will gain (and has) more usage as the second album of a notable singer. I believe the term, here, serves as the primary topic: "with respect to usage, if it is highly likely—much more likely than any other topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term." [Note: I also propose a hat note on this page pointing to the disambiguation page and the term where it originates from (A Clockwork Orange). —JennKR —JennKR | ☎ 16:31, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

  • It (should be) clear here: "will gain (and has) more usage as the second album of a notable singer"— this is criteria #1 of the primary topic guidelines. —JennKR | ☎ 18:35, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
Don't get me wrong, I do think this album is likely to be PT in the future, but this is too soon. Let's see what the page views are in 6 months and make an informed decision then. Zarcadia (talk) 18:52, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Redirects for songs

I created and collected redirects for songs:

These article titles follow manual of style and disambiguation rules. They serve as redirects and may be expanded in the future. Thanks! --Another Believer (Talk) 17:05, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

User:Another Believer - I notice that some of those songs are on other albums as well. Example Old Money (song) is on Old Money (album) by Omar Rodríguez-López. Why should they redirect to this album and not the other albums or dab pages? In ictu oculi (talk) 01:26, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
They could be disambiguation pages, if need be. --Another Believer (Talk) 01:34, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 2

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Jenks24 (talk) 15:29, 4 June 2014 (UTC)


– Although this article is experiencing heightened traffic because of its upcoming release, other articles with the term "Ultraviolence" in the title are pulling in consistently low numbers. Ultraviolence (band) and The Ultra-Violence respectively pulled in 168 and 1058 page views this month, while Ultraviolence (album) pulled in 110,859 page views in the same timeframe. While the page views will likely settle once the hype surrounding the record fades, it can be reasonably expected that a project released by a mainstream recording artist like Lana Del Rey will stand as the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC over the more obscure band and other album. In regards to the previous move request that was concerned that A Clockwork Orange was the primary topic of the term, I believe that a hatnote would be a more effective way of disambiguating between the two "big" articles that use this term, rather than having everyone fish through the existing disambiguation page. WikiRedactor (talk) 21:52, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

  • Oppose - nothing has changed since the previous, except that now the Lana Del Rey album is scheduled to be released on June 13, 2014 the WP:RECENT activity is at its peak. I do not understand how (album) requires that "everyone fish through the existing disambiguation page" - the majority of pop music article's readers in the US access on phones and iPads, on which the disambiguator is the infobox jpg, others access by Google search and top right search box. How can any of these readers walk past "Ultraviolence (album)" and instead select the dab page? The word "(album)" in fact helps these readers by explaining that it is an album. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:25, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose per IIO ; this album has not been released yet. -- 65.94.171.126 (talk) 05:30, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose nothing has changed since the last RM. — Status (talk · contribs) 05:50, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
  • Support but I guess we need to wait for the album to be released. WP:CONCISE is still policy, though. Red Slash 02:42, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
  • Support per WikiRedactor, the album article has 1000 times more views than the other articles with similar names. Even though the views will decline at some point after the album is released, it will still be enough to indicate this is the primary topic. 2Flows (talk) 07:03, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
Since it is scheduled to be released on June 13, 2014, it wouldn't be surprising if it had 100,000x more views during its peak sales/shopping period, but Wikipedia is an encyclopedia not a music retailer, to make something WP:PRIMARYTOPIC requires long term encyclopedic significance over all other topics (not titles) put together. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:12, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose I think we should wait at least a month or two before deciding whether to move the article or not. It may be very popular (and hyped up) now, but that could change if the album isn't well-received or just forgotten very quickly. I also think the term "ultraviolence" is more prominently affiliated with A Clockwork Orange. There's much more people who have read the book or watched the movie, than people who know about this album. Littlecarmen (talk) 20:52, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Support I've changed my opinion. In fact, I think we should move it to the above suggested name because the current article name is not consistent with the other Lana Del Rey album articles. All of the other articles have "..... (Lana Del Rey album)"/".... (Lana Del Rey (EP)" as the title, so why should this one just be ".... (album)"? We should have "Ultraviolence" or "Ultraviolence (Lana Del Rey album)" not the current title. Simply complying with WP:TITLE, it says at the top in the nutshell section; "Article titles should be recognisable to readers, unambiguous, and consistent" hence the consistent & unambiguous parts. --Limbsaw ~talk~ 21:36, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
User:Limbsaw, there's no reason why we can't move to Ultraviolence (Lana Del Rey album) given the existence of The Ultra-Violence, the first album by the band Death Angel. "the" and - are not greatly distinctive. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:03, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
@In ictu oculi: I understand, but as of now, WikiRedactor isn't nominating this page to move to the title I suggested... so I don't know? Unless WikiRedactor wants to suspend this requested move and change it to my suggestion? I just don't get why both Lana album pages are being requested to be re-titled... They're fine as they are! (Well except this one)... --Limbsaw ~talk~ 23:10, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
It's quite common to make counterproposals during an RM. As I understand it you're saying "first choice (Lana Del Rey album), second choice no brackets. Is that right? If so I'd also support (Lana Del Rey album) as first choice. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:13, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
@In ictu oculi: Yes, exactly. If anything, no brackets is out of the question for my opinion. First choice: "Ultraviolence (Lana Del Rey album)" to be constant with Born to Die (Lana Del Rey album), which is clarity at its highest. Second choice: "Ultraviolence (album)" which really makes no sense as there is two different albums & a band. Third choice: "Ultraviolence" again really makes no sense, because there isn't any clarity involved.
  • Oppose. If anything, the Clockwork Orange term is primary. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:54, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Writing credits

Status, how does "Lana Del Rey" being a stage name affect the way she is credited? All articles about her and her music use the surname part of the stage name, "Del Rey" (which is a real surname), to refer to her in prose, so why shouldn't we use it in the writing credits of the track listing?Littlecarmen (talk) 19:33, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

WP:LASTNAME: "People who are best known by a pseudonym should be subsequently referred to by their pseudonymous surnames, unless they do not include a recognizable surname in the pseudonym (e.g. Sting, Snoop Dogg, The Edge), in which case the whole pseudonym is used." 2Flows (talk) 21:52, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
On a second thought, "Del Rey" is actually a distinct surname, so this proves your point. 2Flows (talk) 21:57, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
(Forgot to reply to this but) excellent find. If seems as if I've had the wrong impression of stage last names for a while now. — Status (talk · contribs) 02:19, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 June 2014

Regarding the production of the album, producer Dan Auerbach said, "Her demos were so good, her songs were so strong that I wanted to get my musicians in who I love and get my sound that I get here with her songs and that's it. I didn't want to mess it up. She sang live with a seven-piece band. That's the whole record – a seven-piece band with her singing live. It was crazy." [1] GregorMcGee (talk) 07:31, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Thanks, Older and ... well older (talk) 19:21, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/dan-auerbach-on-working-with-lana-del-rey-it-was-amazing-20140507

Full names

After re-editing my version with the German bonus tracks [1], you have to write out Dan Auerbach and Harmony Korine at Deluxe edition bonus tracks (→ Florida Kilos) ... and to pay attention concerning deleting versions to prevent belated worsening of the article. --79.240.129.212 (talk) 15:03, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

 Done Littlecarmen (talk) 16:14, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
Excellent! :D --79.240.186.185 (talk) 08:44, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Alternative album cover

Urban Outfitters is offering an exclusive vinyl edition of Ultraviolence that comes with a different album cover, should this artwork be added to the infobox as an alternate cover? I wanted to ask here because I've never dealt with alternate covers before and would like other editors' opinions. Thank you in advance. Littlecarmen (talk) 21:43, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Per Template:Infobox_album#Template:Extra_album_cover, I would say the extra cover is appropriate. --Another Believer (Talk) 23:41, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
Okay, thank you! I'm going to add it now. Littlecarmen (talk) 08:26, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Latest singles

Are the latest releases like ̈"Brooklyn Baby", "Ultraviolence" and even "Shades of Cool" are the regular singles? It became a common practice to release such pre-album "countdown singles" which are released only digitally without any radio streaming. I thought it was a closed chapter for Wikipedia to categorize such releases as the promotional singles, since even the time span between them is very untypical for regular singles — a week instead of a couple of months.--demistalk 18:27, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Multiple articles I've read have called them promotional singles, and none have been sent for AirPlay yet. Giacobbe talk 18:33, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

— Status (talk · contribs) 19:53, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 June 2014

Universal Music Group should be added to the labels this album is released by. In the release history on the same page, it is shown that it is released by Universal Music Group. Semitolerable (talk) 20:06, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Done Thanks! Older and ... well older (talk) 04:09, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Reviews

Logging the first reviews that are coming in, both of these Guardian sources could be useful. I'll add more if I come across them:

Semi-protected edit request on 15 June 2014

| Genre = Pop[1], alternative [2] Novell sx (talk) 08:47, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Partly done: The second reference doesn't mention "genre" or "alternative". The first does say that this album is pop, so I've made that change. The current source says the artist's genre is "Pop/Rock, Adult Alternative Pop/Rock, Alternative/Indie Rock", but it seems to me that this article is about the album, not the artist. Thanks for the improvement, Older and ... well older (talk) 18:19, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20824995,00.html
  2. ^ http://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/jun/12/lana-del-rey-ultraviolence-review

Nadsat

The term "ultraviolence" in nadsat, originatin from A Clockwork Orange, means "rape." Since that's its main application, should it be mentioned? Mrmoustache14 (talk) 20:20, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 June 2014

The genre on ULTRAVIOLENCE can easily be described as Baroque pop, Pop, Alternative

108.81.128.153 (talk) 01:06, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

 Not done You need sources to back that statement up. Littlecarmen (talk) 08:02, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 June 2014

You need to put it as universally positive reviews when talking about the album. A 81/100 on Metacritic is something to take pride in. 131.128.73.6 (talk) 13:33, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

 Not done - whist I agree 81/100 is a very good score, the New York Daily News only gave it 2/5 so "universally positive" would not be accurate. Arjayay (talk) 14:08, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Album ratings

Only 10 album ratings are supposed to be listed in the critical reception section, we currently have 12. Two need to be removed. Littlecarmen (talk) 15:23, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Genre and their sources

I don't think putting genres based on a single guy's review is not so fair and so solid. Because even Billboard puts albums like Pure Heroine in Top Rock Albums list. Yeah. An album can contain guitars and not-pop vocals but it doesn't make it a rock albums I think. Above all when they have heavy synth or hip-hop/trip hop (like Born to Die) elements And Dream pop? Source says "Building on her signature dream pop sound...". It's not like it directly says "Her album's genre is Dream pop." It's more like talking about Born to Die and she's building some stuff on it. Yes it's better than labeling it Pop (as if Lana is freaking a Madonna or something) but I don't know... Maybe we don't need any genre, huh? I know I'm more like a edition+tracklisting+bonus track monster but it bugs me a little... Any thoughts about it? Dkisnis (talk) 16:38, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

I think the album does fall into art pop and dream pop with some chamber pop elements. That's also what RateYourMusic users have voted as the top genres. It's very hard to ever source a genre for an album because reviewers very rarely explicitly say which genres an album belongs to, it's even harder to find several reputable sources that agree on a certain genre or a set of genres. This is the most explicit mention of a genre the album is supposed to belong to that I have been able to find which is why I added it. Littlecarmen (talk) 16:51, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, you're right as well. It's the best pain-in-the-ass thing for the music articles. Thanks for responding by the way. Edit: How about Alternative Rock as Amazon says? Because on Video Games page Pop reference is from Amazon.com. I believe that album is Alternative+Rock as well as Art/Dream/Chamber pop. Because it's obviously have tons of Alternative/Alternative Rock and Rock when it's compared to previous releases. Dkisnis (talk) 21:14, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
I think the album does have rock elements but I wouldn't describe the album as a whole as alternative rock. I also don't think Amazon should be used as a reference for genres, in general, because they're too vague. Just my opinion. Littlecarmen (talk) 21:30, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
Consequence of Sound and Entertainment Weekly both classify it explicitly as pop. Pitchfork also say "Lana is a pop music original full-stop" in their review, and Rolling Stone state "She has introduced previously untasted flavors to pop music". So I'd put pop music as a genre. 2Flows (talk) 19:00, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
The genre section of the infobox is supposed to give the reader an idea of what the album sounds like, I don't think pop would give a reader who knows nothing about Del Rey, her music, and this album, the right idea. It's very vague and general, I think dream pop fits much better. Littlecarmen (talk) 19:22, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
Yeah Littlecarmen's right. If you can directly put Pop to infobox of Lana Del Rey and pure pop artists like Britney Spears I think in that way Pop loses its feature. It may not be that (Alternative) Rock but it's not that Pop too. I can't see ANY material's genre on "Lana is a pop music original full-stop" sentence by the way... Dkisnis (talk) 12:23, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, Pitchfork predominantly covers indie rock, I can see them not being so specific and just categorizing everything that's in the charts and isn't hip hop, as pop. People see her as a pop artist, too, even though her music really isn't that poppy. Littlecarmen (talk) 12:38, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
Pop music is a very broad genre and may not be the best choice for this album. However, it is backed by sources and will give the reader an idea about which type of music the album is (it is not hip-hop, EDM etc.) The source about "dream pop" doesn't explicitly state that as a genre of the album, but I agree it would fit better, so if there is a consensus here to add it, I'm fine with that. 2Flows (talk) 17:46, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
This record is very clearly derived from alternative rock with slight influences from jazz fusion (a la Nina Simone) and the blues rock contributed by producer Dan Auerbach. Dream pop is a correct genre as it is a form of alternative rock, but pop would look quite silly as a genre choice, IMO. Yes, Lana Del Rey is a "popular" artist, but the genre does not belong to the "pop" realm. As far as credible sources go, most have called attention to the shift to rock, from alternative pop and trip hop of Born to Die, in this album. I think many users here need to understand the distinction between the genre of pop and popular artists as well as the difference between rock and alternative rock. Edit: Not sure how to conclude this edit and sign it as my own as I am a guest. 14 September 2014
And as dream-pop album, it contains elements from indie pop, chamber pop (sympho-pop + pop rock) and pure pop rock sounds (http://luxeth.ru/album/0000122) like her first record. Yes, this one is less poppy and more "dreamy" but facts are facts. This album is pop album (https://play.google.com/store/music/album/Lana_Del_Rey_Ultraviolence_Deluxe?id=Bsjadrdmqfh77d3tyrnnogweuuq) with alternative rock influenced pop sound. Maybe, pop rock. But "Contemporary Pop/Rock" genre is a part of pop music too. Albums which have an "alt-rock" tag also have more aggressive guitar playing with untraditionally effect (distorions etc.). And albums which has another "Alternative music" genres can be different. Even electronic. Mr. LuxeTH (talk) 13:50, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
That's actually incorrect. Dream pop does not usually have "pop elements" and the "dreamy" sound is only a small fraction of the sound. It is often paralleled with shoegaze as subsets of alternative rock. Chamber pop, also called "chamber rock." (artists such as Beach Boys, Beatles, Rolling Stones) is also a form of alternative rock. Pop-rock is an entirely different entity. And there's no "fact" that UV is anywhere in the pop spectrum. Wikipedia is not the place for hyperbole. The indie rock-esque guitars feature quite heavily in this album and warrant the title. You're also incorrect in saying that alternative rock must have "aggressive" guitars. Indie/alt rock usually feature very melancholy, subtle guitar riffs. Please freshen up on music genre terms before making generalizations that could affect articles and readers. I sense a bit of sexism here in not wanting to acknowledge a popular female artist's true genre. Her exact sound with male vocals would be called, well, The Black Keys. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.26.193.181 (talk) 06:37, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
Oh man, what do you wanna talk to me? I know alternative music and I live with it. On this Lana's album I see only one song which CAN be described as alternative rock, "Pretty When You Cry" it calls. This album MAY contains elements of alternative MUSIC, but this isn't alternative ROCK album. Cinematic pop music may well characterize this album. It's a pop album and never mind what iTunes and fans telling are. Many reviews also agree with me. Should I find all of them i put a "Pop" tage on the page? Yes. But I prefer to see "Dream pop" cause this one describes album so well. And if you want to see your "alternative rock" here, find reliable REVIEWS where people talks about this one. Okay? Mr. LuxeTH (talk) 14:46, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
I don't mean this in a rude way, but I think you may be missing my point if English is not your first language. The reviews you highlighted-I've read and re-read them all- utilized "pop" to reflect Lana's place in "popular" culture/music, not the genre of "pop." Every song on the album, save for the orchestral Old Money, are considered to be alternative/indie rock tracks. Cruel World is a 70s desert rock piece that dabbles in psychedelia, Ultraviolence is indie rock, Shades of Cool is a mixture of 70s desert rock and soft rock, Brooklyn Baby sounds identical to a Lou Reed track, West Coast is psychedelic rock and soft rock, Sad Girl is blues rock, Pretty When You Cry sounds like a psychedelic rock, Pink Floyd outtake, Money, Power Glory is indie rock/dream pop, FMWUTT incoporates drum beats and wailing guitars in a desert rock track, and The Other Woman is a jazz and blues rock fusion. Most of the musical analysis focuses on Lana's shift from trip hop in Born to Die to the rock sound of Ultraviolence, contributed by Dan Auerbach. This album really could not be more anti-pop in sound and this is continually emphasized in many of the reviews because of Lana Del Rey's stature in popular music. I think this is where you become confused. You've also mistakenly stated that dream pop is a form of pop. While it contains that name, it is a sub-category of alternative rock (as stated in the Wikipedia article as well). Good examples of dream pop are Mazzy Star (which was often cited in Ultraviolence reviews) and Beach House. Both are considered to be alternative and indie rock bands. I actually think the genre of indie rock is a better choice as alternative rock is so broad, although appropriate as well considering the various forms of retro-rock that Del Rey explores in the album. Also, a quick look at your profile reveals that you actually listen more to punk and post-punk forms of rock rather than the more psychedelic, indie rock genres that are closer to Ultraviolence on the alternative rock spectrum, which also explains your confusion about different forms of alternative rock. I hope that you found this to be informative and constructive criticism. What I love about wikipedia is that you learn new things every day and I hope that you will see this in that way rather than a form of aggression. I've enjoyed the music debate. Be well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.26.193.181 (talk) 01:29, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

What NONSENSE is this entire genre 'dispute' regarding this album... There shouldn't be any at all. Ultraviolence is very blues rock, and soulful and pop rock/Adult contemporary. Not so much indie rock, but Indie by itself in the sense it's independent. There's solos and blues in literally every song, maybe just call it blues so these admins can get off their damn high-horse confusing people. Damn. At this moment in time even the first album is tagged under 'Trip-hop' are you kidding me? This is laughable, and I'm entirely unimpressed with these articles someone clean this up. It's POP. It is ALTERNATIVE. It is also BLUES and DREAM POP (a more appropriate title, than shoegaze). 82.44.56.179 (talk) 00:52, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Singles

Should "Ultraviolence" and "Brooklyn Baby" be considered singles? To me, they seem like typical examples of promotional singles that are released through iTunes in anticipation of the parent record. (I purposely did not include "Shades of Cool" in this discussion because I have seen examples of the song being specifically called a single. [2][3][4][5]) WikiRedactor (talk) 21:11, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Many sources explicitly call both of them singles:
  • "Brooklyn Baby" - Music Times: "Lana Del Rey Releases New 'Ultraviolence' Single 'Brooklyn Baby'" [6]; Huffington Post: "'Brooklyn Baby', the fourth single from the forthcoming album "Ultraviolence." " [7]; Complex: "Lana Del Rey has released a new song called "Brooklyn Baby." The single appears on her upcoming sophomore album, Ultraviolence". [8]
  • "Ultraviolence" - Rolling Stone: "Lana Del Rey: new single "Ultraviolence" in the stream", "The third single release" [9]; United Press International: "Del Rey released new single "Ultraviolence" on Wednesday." [10]; 2Flows (talk) 22:03, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Genre again

Looking at the concensus given in the previous talk page, there was no citations really given. Despite consensus, you still need to have sources backing up claims. Currently, we do not for a good amount of them. I've tagged them in the article. Feel free to add sources here that follow WP:RS and WP:OR. Andrzejbanas (talk) 21:07, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

There were a dozen, or so, sources posted after the consensus was achieved and the page subsequently edited. They can easily be found in past edits of the page. A couple of sources were chosen by the user, Little Carmen, in order to make the page look tidier, and have already been posted to the page along with references to the genres listed by critics: dream pop, indie rock, blues rock, psychedelic rock, desert rock. The first three were referenced the most frequently, chosen as a consensus, and posted on the lower portion of the page along with their sources (where those belong). There really is no dubious quality to these genres. I must agree with the user in the discussion above that noted that there is a sexist vibe given off by the constant denial of the album's true indie rock genres. I have found this to be prevalent on most pages for female indie/alternative rock singers and it is just not acceptable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.85.228.129 (talk) 16:57, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
"I must agree with the user in the discussion above that noted that there is a sexist vibe given off by the constant denial of the album's true indie rock genres." what?
My issue is currently with the sources is that they don't every say the album belongs to the said genres. Let's take it one step at a time. Of the three sources there is no mention of blues rock (for reference: Triple J, NME, Fact says "As a songwriter, Del Rey’s Badalamenti-does-Disney compositions are still masterfully crafted, with an instant-vintage quality that looks back on decades-old folks, blues, and rock traditions.", but "looking back" on folk, blues and rock doesn't mean it's blues rock. I don't know where that came from. Could you show me where blues rock came from? Andrzejbanas (talk) 17:40, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
I'm gonna say it again. It is ALTERNATIVE. It is both POP and DREAM POP. And it is BLUES. Same with Born To Die... why is there a discussion. Her music is just indie music. Not indie rock! 82.44.56.179 (talk) 00:55, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
In past edit (that an above user referred to) cleaned up by Little Carmen, I provided 10 sources. All of which referenced the - indie, blues, psychedelic, desert - rock sound of Ultraviolence. I cannot see them anymore, but I am sure they are on a past version of the page. And yes, the many denials of this album has having an indie "rock" sound are pretty silly when that is clearly a genre. Here is one: http://prettymuchamazing.com/reviews/lana-del-rey-ultraviolence (referring to the album as blues rock). This is a reputable source that counts for MetaCritic. Someone will have to go through the past versions of the page to find the rest. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.26.197.138 (talk) 04:53, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
"Ultraviolence, a collection of mid-century ballads spiked with blues-rock," being "spiked with blues-rock" doesn't make an album blues-rock, just like how if a song had a "reggae tinged guitar" wouldn't make it a reggae song. Not strong enough. Also, whoever removed the tags, please don't remove tags until a source is found and is discussed here.Andrzejbanas (talk) 08:02, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
"Spiked" has a much stronger connotation than "tinged." It's explaining that the songs are composed as mid-century ballads, formatively, and this is manifested sonically through the blues rock production. I have read countless reviews that highlight the blues rock element of the album, derived from the production of Black Keys' frontman, Dan Auerbach. Many of these aren't for page citations, but they exhibit how this is an accepted genre for the album (along with dream pop...which is also a form of rock which is explained in the genre discussion above).

http://kdhx.org/music/reviews/album-review-lana-del-rey-enchants-darkly-on-ultraviolence http://www.redeyechicago.com/entertainment/music/redeye-lana-del-rey-ultraviolence-review-20140618,0,1771585.column http://www.radioutd.com/2014/06/24/lana-del-rey-ultraviolence/ http://www.billboard.com/articles/review/6121485/lana-del-rey-ultraviolence-album-review-song-by-song-track-by-track http://evigshed.com/lana-del-rey-ultraviolence-album-review/

Still waiting on someone to go through the past versions of the page to find my original source list for the "rock" sub-genres. These denials are becoming a bit monotonous and absurd considering how heavily attributable to indie and blues rock that the album is. I've been seeing these same arguments on various other alternative rock albums by women as well, but never when the album is sung by a male. Every single track for this album (aside from the orchestral Old Money) has been identified as belonging to a sub-genre of rock. All four of the singles are cited as such on their pages. NME refers to the album as "desert rock," which I agree with because of the Californian vibe. http://www.nme.com/reviews/lana-del-rey/15401. Maybe that would be the best choice to accompany dream pop and blues rock. Indie rock seems to confuse people that think it has to do with the label. The genre of "indie rock" has nothing to do with the artist's label. In fact, many artists signed to large labels, such as Lana herself, have been bringing the genre back to the mainstream. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.26.197.138 (talk) 20:09, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm not really convinced by that. If you want to call it a blues-rock album, you have to find someone saying that per WP:STICKTOSOURCE, "Passages open to multiple interpretations should be precisely cited or avoided.".
WItht that note, the "unhurried cadence of blues rock, jazz and funk" ignores the other said genres and since it's just a mixture, we can't just pick and choose the ones we want. Not even sure if the KDHX website should be used as a source as it appears to be "run by volunteers". Ditto for the Chicago one which says "The result is a haunted Hollywood landscape that nods to James Bond theme songs and bluesy rock styling." Having "nods" to it, is just a reference point and not specific. Same here with mentioning of things being "bluesy" and having "blues guitar", but that's like my reggae example above. Billboard's is just discussing one song specificly, and calls it "bluesy" but not "blues". I'm not sure why we are translating "bluesy" to "blues" either, because that's against WP:OR. Ditto again with this site with it's mentions of either "bluesy-jazz" and "jazzy-blues". which is it? I don't have anything against what genre you choose or the gender of the person (view my edit history and you can see it's all over the place, I find your accusations of me doing this against good faith. If you don't have citations that specificly back up what you are saying, please remove them. If you want to find these phantom sources you bring up, I'd stop waiting for someone to do it as [[[WP:UNSOURCED|that burden is yours]]. Andrzejbanas (talk) 21:44, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
Like I said, I knew most of those weren't eligible, but I was trying to exhibit how the genre seems to be accepted. I guess we can agree to disagree about the meaning of that PMA quote about bluesy rock.

However, after re-reading the NME (mixed) review, I think desert rock may actually be the best choice for a second genre. The genre embodies elements of the other genres that seem to be favored as consensus (psychedelic rock, blues rock, indie rock, cinematic rock) and it reflects the West Coast vibe of the album. It's also much more specific than something like indie rock. I've also seen the term in several UV articles (often drawing comparisons to Mazzy Star). The album needs something more rock-oriented to add to dream pop (as most reviews focused on the shift from trip hop to nostalgic, itar-driven rock). Desert rock would be perfect for this and there are sources for it. I will make the edit when I get home later. Thanks for your help in properly sourcing the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.237.12.236 (talk) 16:35, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

You need to find sources for these genres and not deciding based on what's most "accurate" to you. We don't go by truth on wikipedia, we go by what reliable sources. Andrzejbanas (talk) 18:43, 30 October 2014 (UTILITIES
I didn't add those...I only added desert rock and kept dream pop since both had definitive sources. Little Carmen added blues rock, psychedelic rock, and indie rock to the composition section based on my old sources but she narrowed them down, so those need to be properly sourced still. A different user is still adding blues rock though the source is disagreed upon by you. I'm inclined to believe his deciphering of the source, though. Seems pretty clear to me as well.
Yes, it's pretty explicitly stated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.26.197.138 (talk) 02:14, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
Two anonymous commments don't make it belong to a genre, I'm not convinced. Andrzejbanas (talk) 15:11, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

We should not be inserting a genre based on only one reviewer, or based on the term "spiked with". The infobox genres should be stated in multiple sources. Binksternet (talk) 19:12, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

"Black Beauty" as a single

The release of Black Beauty was announced on an for November 21, but it doesn't seem to have been released anywhere. Should we remove it from the article? Littlecarmen (talk) 17:27, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Pretty When You Cry (song)

Pretty When You Cry (song) was recently expanded from a redirect, but contains little information. Is this song notable enough for its own article? ---Another Believer (Talk) 16:30, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

New York Daily News review

Has anyone read the New York Daily News review? It is a complete load of rubbish. Is it a reliable source? A P Monblat (talk) 02:04, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

I've replaced that tabloid-ish "review" from the infobox in the critical reception section, but I'll wait for consensus before removing the thing entirely. That isn't a review, it's a Rupert Murdoch-type smear-piece. It's a positively awful piece of journalism. The entire thing needs to be replaced with something less blatantly hostile ASAP. Homeostasis07 (talk) 03:15, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
It has been nearly a week now. No-one has said we should keep the smear-piece, so I suggest we delete the whole thing. Are NYDN reviews often used in music articles here? If so, I hope they're not all like this. A P Monblat (talk) 03:50, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
Removed. And I don't know how often NYDN is used as a source on Wikipedia, but I hope it isn't very often. Looking at the sites Music Reviews section, it seems this Jim Farber is their only music correspondent. And within the first three pages of the link I posted above, he makes it perfectly clear what he likes and what he doesn't: lots of 4/5 star reviews for random teen-orientated pop, lots of 2-star reviews for everything else. A basic prerequisite to reviewing music of differing genres is having the ability to put your own fandom aside, and disseminating a release on its own merits. He clearly lacks this ability. He basically seems like a blogger who bluffed his way in to writing reviews for a tabloid. I hope his stuff isn't used on many other Wiki articles. Until NYDN expands its roster, I'd suggest putting this site on a blacklist. The tabloid clearly wouldn't be used as a reliable source for much else, other than music reviews. And it's music section clearly isn't cutting it. Homeostasis07 (talk) 01:37, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Good article status?

Does anyone have a sense of whether or not this article meets Good article criteria, or have an interest in nominating it? Looks pretty solid to me. ---Another Believer (Talk) 05:34, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

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Singles

"Shades of Cool" and "Brooklyn Baby" had no promotion outside of being available from download separate from the album, unlike the other three 'singles' of the album....this naturally leads me to believe that Ultraviolence had three official singles ("West Coast", "Ultraviolence", and "Black Beauty"). Thoughts? I am happy to rework the corresponding pages if need be, though the Lana Del Rey discography page might need to be edited by someone else, as I am terrible with charts. Aleccat 02:48, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

@Aleccat: I am unsure about this as well. "Shades of Cool" may have had a single release as a music video was filmed and released, but "Brooklyn Baby" almost seems to be exclusively a promotional single. Carbrera (talk) 03:14, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

I'd argue more for "Shades of Cool" actually (source 1), I have found two sources citing it as one (source 2). "Brooklyn Baby" does seem like one, but I can't truly credible sources for it (singular, possibly uncredible source). I am willing to change "Brooklyn Baby" if others would help this 'discussion' come to a consensus. Aleccat 03:50, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

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