Talk:Ukrainians/Archive 5
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Take it to the Talk page? What?
The article says that Ukrainians "are an East Slavic ethnic group". The people in the collage are supposed to be members of this ethnic group. Karina Smirnoff is described in her own article as being of Greek and Russian descent, i.e. not an ethnic Ukrainian. In Archive 4, TaivoLinguist said that "When a person is born in Ukraine, speaks Ukrainian (all Ukrainians also speak Russian), and claims to be Ukrainian in the world's media, that person is Ukrainian." I certainly do not agree with this. It would only make sense if the person describes themselves as ethnic Ukrainian or at least says that they identify as ethnic Ukrainian, regardless of what their actual ancestry may be (though this last point is highly questionable, in my opinion). Otherwise, one couldn't identify as a citizen of Ukraine without also being labeled as an ethnic Ukrainian, and that's absurd. Milla Jovovich did not say that she is an ethnic Ukrainian, as far as I'm aware, so why is she being presented as one? It's actually kind of insulting to Ukrainians - what, you can't think of someone who is actually ethnically Ukrainian to put in there? Also, not all Ukrainians speak Russian, Taivo. Most do, most people in Ukraine do, but not all (certainly not at a fully fluent level).
I would also note Lyudmila Pavlichenko's father was an ethnic Russian Chekist from St. Petersburg (Pavlichenko was the name of her first husband, her maiden name was Belova). I don't know about her mother, but I do know that she herself referred to herself as a "Russian soldier" (русский солдат) in "the world's media" during the war, see this video (at about 28 seconds in): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjBsuCI_3no
So why is a person of Russian ancestry, who referred to herself as a Russian soldier, being presented as an ethnic Ukrainian? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.172.98.164 (talk) 23:53, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
- I was thinking the same thing for Smirnoff. Much of the whole bottom row is full of celebrities of non and part Ukrainians who aren't from the Ukraine/aren't really relevant to Ukraine. I propose removing Smirnoff, Werbowy, Farmiga, Palance, and maybe Jovovich. In place we should put the most relevant Ukrainian film figure Alexander Dovzhenko. Also thinking of switching Yevhen Konovalets with Symon Petliura because he seems to be the most important military figure from the time (I may be wrong). And Yaroslav the Wise should be added because he's such a relevant figure. Would be nice to be sure Pavlichenko's mother isn't Ukrainian, otherwise she could stay, but calling herself Russian means she should probably go. --Steverci (talk) 00:45, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
- I would leave someone like Palance, as he was actually of Ukrainian ancestry. Frankly, neither Vladimir the Great, nor Yaroslav the Wise should be in there as neither of them was an ethnic Ukrainian or even a proto-ethnic Ukrainian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.172.98.164 (talk) 07:47, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
- He's half Polish, has no real relevance to Ukraine, and isn't really that noteworthy. If we're going to keep any of the actors it should be Jovovich because she's the most famous. Can Danylo be considered Ukrainian or proto-Ukrainian? If we do remove Vladimir, the five actors, and add Dovzhenko, we'd be at a round number of 25 which I think is a good place to leave it. And please don't get in an edit war, I know Wikipedia rules can be stupid but it's best to leave it as it is for now. Since no one is objecting to removing Smirnoff or any of the others it will happen soon enough, but if you give an excuse to get blocked it won't. --Steverci (talk) 03:40, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
- You obviously haven't read Smirnoff's web page and her official DWTS bio, where she is clearly and unequivocally called "Ukrainian" ([1], [2]). An unverified tweet is not evidence. An official bio is. Palance should be kept and Farmiga since they are both children of Ukrainian immigrants. And instead of just shotgunning lists of people that you disagree with, it's been clearly the practice on this page to discuss each individual separately. Otherwise it's just a mess. And the reason we have contemporary celebrities on the bottom row is because this is the English Wikipedia, not the Ukrainian Wikipedia. We want people there that our readers will recognize, not obscure Ukrainians that no one knows in the English-speaking world. Smirnoff is famous because of her appearances on DWTS. Farmiga is starring on American and Canadian television in the series Bates Motel. Palance had a long and distinguished career in film. Jovovich also has had a long career in film. --Taivo (talk) 04:10, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
- He's half Polish, has no real relevance to Ukraine, and isn't really that noteworthy. If we're going to keep any of the actors it should be Jovovich because she's the most famous. Can Danylo be considered Ukrainian or proto-Ukrainian? If we do remove Vladimir, the five actors, and add Dovzhenko, we'd be at a round number of 25 which I think is a good place to leave it. And please don't get in an edit war, I know Wikipedia rules can be stupid but it's best to leave it as it is for now. Since no one is objecting to removing Smirnoff or any of the others it will happen soon enough, but if you give an excuse to get blocked it won't. --Steverci (talk) 03:40, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
- The first source just simply states she's from Ukraine, not Ukrainian. The second source is just some manager's words. Her Twitter account is verified so it's a legitimate source, plus she has called herself Greek and Russian in other places [3] [4]. I'd like to see a source where she calls herself Ukrainian. She hardly lived in independent Ukraine at all and is from a city at the Russian border. One would think the readers would come to this article to learn more about Ukrainians, not obscure celebrities they might have seen on TV once or twice. Still for varieties sake that's why I'd consider Jovovich, but the rest are too much, no one cares about the model of a random French perfume company. --Steverci (talk) 04:56, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
- Those two articles you cite about Smirnoff are 1000 times more reliable than a tweet, which is still not a reliable source. So I would be willing to remove Smirnoff since she specifically doesn't claim to be Ukrainian (the same reason that I've never advocated including Mila Kunis, because she never claims to be Ukrainian). But your claims that the other three I've listed are "obscure" is simply your own POV. I would argue that nearly every one of the other "celebrities" on the entire Ukrainian list are more obscure to our English-speaking readers. I had never heard of Shevchenko until I started encountering him in every town square when I lived in Ukraine. Jovovich, Palance, and Farmiga (I'm advocating for those three in the contemporary celebrity group, not the perfume model) are all recognizable to many American readers--they should not be replaced. --Taivo (talk) 08:05, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
- Alright then, but the collage after these changes will stand at 27. Two more should go to make it perpendicular. Do we really need three actors, from the same time range no less? I just found out Jovovich had a Serbian father [5] so she's out of the question. Palance or Farmiga, then? --Steverci (talk) 03:08, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
- Steverci, why is it that the moment there are arguments about galleries on talk pages, I know that you're somehow involved? While you are well aware of the fact that my position on galleries is that they are counterproductive because they contravene WP:NOR, plus are probably the single-most time and energy consuming aspect of "ethnic group" name spaces, where there are consensus-based galleries (and consensus was reached on this gallery only around a year and a half ago), please stop fiddling around with galleries because it's your personal obsession. Stop stirring up antagonism on article after article where there is a consensus gallery in the infobox, and trying to re-introduce a gallery where consensus was to get rid of it because of the energy sinkhole created by bickering over what constitutes a true representative of an ethnic group. Why do you persist in stuffing beans up your nose? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:19, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
- You should examine your own schnoz first Iryna. I could say the same about you in these kinds of discussions, you must have at least 30 beans from the Romanians article alone by now. And in case you didn't bother the read the discussion over, I'm not the one who called for a (now consensus) change, an IP user did and I simply joined in and helped achieve said consensus. --Steverci (talk) 03:08, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
- Jovovich has been agreed upon for over a year now (nearly two [6]). She, herself, says that she is Ukrainian. The references are above if you actually took the time to read the rest of the Talk Page and the archives. She stays, as does Farmiga and Palance. All have been the subject of discussion and agreement in the past. You are not the arbiter of "racial purity" here. Jovovich passes muster and claims to be Ukrainian herself. --Taivo (talk) 05:26, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
- And your reasoning that she can't be Ukrainian because her father wasn't Ukrainian is faulty. Yuliya Tymoshenko's father was latvian. Ivan Mazepa was half Lithuanian. Nikolai Gogol's mother was Polish. Roxelana might have been Polish or Rusyn rather than Ukrainian. Dmitry Bortniansky's father was Polish-Rusyn. Indeed, unless you have a legitimate DNA test and have results for each and every one of the individuals on the collage, you are simply pushing your POV through original research. All of these individuals have some level of Ukrainian ancestry and all claim to be Ukrainians. (Jovovich even spoke Ukrainian as an immigrant child in the US.) Ukrainians also claim Jovovich as theirs. When I was living in Ukraine, her movies were very popular and Ukrainians were always telling me, "She's Ukrainian." --Taivo (talk) 05:47, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
- I assumed you had looked at her article at some point, but allow me to point out her mother is Russian in addition to her father being a Serb. So she has no proven Ukrainian ancestry. Someone should have at least some in order to be passable. A shame because she's probably the most famous of the three, but rules are rules. She might have called herself Ukrainian a few times but she also calls herself Russian and can speak Serbian and Russian, can she speak Ukrainian anymore? Doesn't seem so. And before you say the same logic with Smirnoff again, it's you who is promoting original research by assuming Russians and Ukrainians must be the same people somewhere down the line, etc. And after we remove Smirnoff, St. Vladimir, and the model there will be two spots sticking out. We should keep it square by making it 5x5. So two need to go, and one will probably be Jovovich. --Steverci (talk) 06:31, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
- "Rules are rules"? Please point out these "rules". I'll tell you a "rule": WP:CONSENSUS. Ever read that one? There is a consensus for including Jovovich. I'll provide you the link one more time: [7]. And the consensus was overwhelming at the time. You are just grasping at straws. Jovovich self-identifies as Ukrainian and Smirnoff does not. Jovovich spoke Ukrainian when she immigrated to the US and was known as a "Ukrainian kid". Do you have a DNA test to prove "Ukrainianness"? No? Ethnicity is not solely based on genetics or even on language. It is also based on cultural identification. Ukrainians claim her as Ukrainian and the overwhelming consensus of Wikipedia editors is to include her. Your personal bias doesn't really matter. --Taivo (talk) 11:17, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
- Consensus is what he makes of it, Taivo. Following it would contradict his whole raison d'être. As you may note, consensus for not having a gallery on the Romanians article reached by about 7 regular editors who'd had enough of the edit wars and constant changes to the gallery is up for being tested for WP:CCC after 3 days to 3 months by trying to sneak a gallery back... as with the Russians article, etc. Naturally, I couldn't possibly understand what consensus means as I don't take a single edit or comment by an IP to be an indication of consensus having changed. Sigh. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:44, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- Taivo, do you understand what an ethnic group is? Because it doesn't seem like you do. You say that Smirnoff is "called Ukrainian" on her site, but this is not the same thing as being "ethnic Ukrainian". Any citizen of Ukraine is "Ukrainian" in that sense - what else would they be called? You're not leaving any room for someone to acknowledge themselves as being a Ukrainian citizen, but not an ethnic Ukrainian. A lot of people were born in Ukraine and/or have Ukrainian citizenship but are not ethnic Ukrainians. What is it that you don't understand about this? You claim that there is a "consensus" here to leave a person with no known Ukrainian ancestry as a representative of ethnic Ukrainians in the collage. I don't believe that there is any such consensus. I think that any reasonable person would agree that someone who has no known Ukrainian ancestry should not be described as an ethnic Ukrainian, period. Including such people essentially defeats the purpose of the article. And I would note that the only person talking about "racial purity" here is you. This has nothing to do with racial purity. I personally would not object to a mixed person with substantial ethnic Ukrainian ancestry, who identifies as ethnic Ukrainian, being in the collage. The problem is that I haven't seen any evidence that either Smirnoff or Jovovich has any Ukrainian ancestry, and I don't believe for one second that either one of them identifies as an ethnic Ukrainian. Again, there is a difference between identifying with Ukraine as a territory or state, and identifying as an ethnic Ukrainian. 104.172.98.164 (talk) 00:47, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
- We're not talking about Smirnoff anymore or are you unable to read the past discussion? And there is a consensus for including Jovovich. Your objections are simply your personal opinion and not based on any facts. While Smirnoff doesn't identify herself as Ukrainian, Jovovich certainly does. Read the archives (link above) and you will see the clear evidence from interviews that Jovovich has given. Your ethnic purity POV is simply irrelevant. There are more factors in determining ethnicity than just blood. --Taivo (talk) 05:36, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
- Taivo, you said that Mazepa was half Lithuanian and that Gogol's mother was Polish - that's plainly false. You claim that Jovovich spoke Ukrainian as a child. That's almost certainly false. Where would she even learn it from from back then? Most ethnic Russians and other non-ethnic Ukrainians in Ukraine do not speak Ukrainian among themselves. The only ones who speak Ukrainian on any kind of regular basis are those that live in predominantly Ukrainian-speaking areas - mostly in western Ukraine. Plenty of pure ethnic Ukrainians born in Ukraine did not grow up speaking Ukrainian. This is really basic stuff that anyone familiar with the area would know. But we're supposed to believe that Jovovich was speaking Ukrainian as a child while living in complete isolation from Ukraine back in the 80s? Ducktales. And the thing is, even if she was, it wouldn't make her ethnic Ukrainian. Even identifying with the country of Ukraine doesn't make one ethnic Ukrainian. You really think that Jovovich identifies herself with the likes of Bandera and Konovalets? That she considers them her "co-ethnics"? I mean, you don't find that comical yourself? 104.172.98.164 (talk) 09:44, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
- Just look at the articles on Mazepa and Gogol and you'll see that they have one parent who is not what you consider "Ukrainian"--a pureblood. But all of your assertions are just your own original research anyway. And your comment that the mark of being ethnic Ukrainian is support for Bandera is simply laughable. Do you honestly believe that all Ukrainians supported him? That's just a ridiculous "mark" of Ukrainianness and pushes your personal POV without being any measure of ethnicity whatsoever. But because Wikipedia runs on actual sources and not on your personal POV, here is a clear, unambiguous reference that Jovovich identifies as Ukrainian and spoke Ukrainian as a child: [8]. She also sings Ukrainian folk songs in Ukrainian: [9]. She also consistently identifies with "her people" in Ukraine: [10]. Her own words are definitive. We've talked about this before and have a clear and unequivocal consensus that she belongs here as a Ukrainian: [11]. Unless you can convince a consensus of editors of your POV in defiance of Ms. Jovovich's own words, then she stays. --Taivo (talk) 13:05, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
- For what it's worth, I agree with Taivo, above. Identifying oneself as a Ukrainian culturally regardless of "blood" ought to be enough. She wasn't just a self-identified Russian, Pole, etc. who happened to be born on Ukrainian territory (such as Joseph Conrad, or Mikhail Bulgakov), she actually speaks and sings in Ukrainian and has described herself as such. This is rather clear. Faustian (talk) 19:23, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
- Who says she identifies culturally as a Ukrainian? She's Russian Orthodox. Milla Jovovich celebrates her Russian heritage. She cannot speak Ukrainian anymore either. In fact I just found out her family moved to Ukraine just before she was born and left a few years afterward,[12] so there's no chance of any distant Ukrainian blood, as Taivo theorized. --Steverci (talk) 05:41, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
- She identifies herself as Ukrainian. You just don't seem to understand. And many Ukrainians also practice the "Russian Orthodox" religion. Do you honestly think that American media makes a distinction between the various and sundry varieties of Orthodoxy practiced in Ukraine? Or, like everything else, do they bundle everything together under "Russian Orthodox"? And if a Ukrainian speaker of Ukrainian parents living in Lviv converted to Presbyterianism, would you then claim that they were no longer Ukrainian? She doesn't speak Russian anymore either (my wife is a Russian-speaking Ukrainian and tells me that Jovovich's Russian is also very rusty). You are just continually trying to push your POV against a solid consensus that Jovovich should be here. And I haven't "theorized" anything. The facts are pretty simple--Jovovich claims to be Ukrainian, she was born in Ukraine, she spoke Ukrainian as a child, she sings Ukrainian folk songs in Ukrainian. --Taivo (talk) 07:26, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
- Unless you have a genetic test that you are willing to administer to everyone you think "deserves" to be listed here, then we have to take their word for it based on interviews. Jovovich has passed muster here time and time again on this Talk Page. Unless you can actually build a consensus, then you are wasting time here. --Taivo (talk) 07:35, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
- Taivo, you are theorizing, and your theories are plainly and embarrassingly wrong. "here is a clear, unambiguous reference that Jovovich identifies as Ukrainian and spoke Ukrainian as a child" - that reference is simply mistaken. It also mentions her "Ukrainian family" even though neither parent was from Ukraine or an ethnic Ukrainian. I think you yourself know that what they SHOULD have said is that she spoke Russian as a child, not Ukrainian. So you are stubbornly presenting this mistake as one of your main arguments, ignoring or dismissing all evidence to the contrary. It's also quite comical how you criticize me for bringing up identifying with Bandera and Konovalets (who are both in the collage) ethnically (not necessarily politically) while essentially arguing that some words of support for *it's not even clear who* in Ukraine mean that one identifies as an ethnic Ukrainian. Not just a native or citizen or even patriot of Ukraine, but an ethnic Ukrainian - which is NOT the same thing. Regarding her singing Ukrainian folk songs, in your own link it states that "she has a hard Russian accent while singing in Ukrainian" - which strongly implies that she did NOT speak Ukrainian as a child, but rather spoke Russian (as reason and common sense would suggest). Now you try to obfuscate her association with the Russian Orthodox Church with some nonsense about "well the American media just bundles everything together under Russian Orthodox". Here, read this:
- http://celebritybabies.people.com/2015/05/27/milla-jovovich-daughter-baptism-photos
- "Milla Jovovich has been giving her Instagram followers an inside look at daughter Dashiel Edan‘s traditional Russian Orthodox baptism ceremony, which took place Friday at the Holy Transfiguration Russian Orthodox church in Los Angeles."
- That church has a website and a Facebook page. It is definitely part of the Russian Orthodox Church. 104.172.98.164 (talk) 03:56, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
- Oh Taivo is in for a beatdown here. Straight from Milla's own instagram: millajovovichGood morning everyone! I want to thank the super talented @mariagraziabruna (also a fellow Russian) for documenting Dashiel Edan's baptism last Friday! When we speak Russian we call her "Dasha", so her Saint's name is "Daria" (Дария). Amazing fact, Dashiel was born on April 1st which is also Saint Daria's Day! Amazing, right? She was born on the day of her namesake patron saint! (The christening was held at a traditional Russian Orthodox Church here in Los Angeles and its respectful for women to cover their heads before entering.) She just sent me this pic and it's so gorgeous!!! 104.172.98.164 (talk) 05:28, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
- As I also mentioned above, it doesn't matter which Orthodox church she goes to in the US. You seem to think that Ukrainian nationality is tied to particular church membership when Ukrainians in Ukraine are members of several different Christian and Jewish organizations. You are simply trying to find any sliver of evidence that Jovovich hasn't identified as Ukrainian. But you simply refuse to admit that Wikipedia editors have overwhelmingly agreed that she was Ukrainian and there is no evidence here that you have changed anyone's mind. Ukrainians accept her as Ukrainian, she said that she spoke Ukrainian as a child, she sings in Ukrainian now, she calls Ukrainians "her people", etc. And your reference to a "beatdown" is childish to say the least. You have no new evidence to present and have failed to counter any of the evidence that presents her as Ukrainian. --Taivo (talk) 11:42, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
- Taivo, in the link above, Jovovich refers to another instagrammer as "a fellow Russian". Doesn't that mean anything to you? She talks about speaking Russian with her newborn daughter (not Ukrainian, why?), baptizing her daughter in a Russian church, refers to another person as a fellow Russian (not a Ukrainian). According to you, this means nothing? At the very least it calls into question her supposed self-identification as Ukrainian. One would think that a time like this, when Russia and Ukraine are in conflict, that a self-identified Ukrainian would at least mention something about Ukraine in there somehow, but no - there's nothing about Ukraine. I call for a new vote in light of new evidence. It's plainly obvious that she identifies as Russian more than Ukrainian. You claim that "she sings in Ukrainian now" as if that would make her ethnic Ukrainian. There are plenty of ethnic Russians and others, including famous singers, who have sung in Ukrainian at some point - it doesn't mean that they identify as ethnic Ukrainians. Regarding "my people struggling in the [sic] Ukraine" - that's not the same thing as ethnic Ukrainians.104.172.98.164 (talk) 20:20, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
- You have a very simplistic notion of what "Ukrainian" means obviously. My wife's mother's family has been Ukrainian since long before family memory, yet they speak Russian and have sometimes called themselves "Russian" even though they are thoroughly Ukrainians. It's not as clear-cut as you and other diaspora Ukrainians seem to think it is. They volunteer at hospitals, sing the national anthem with gusto, cry when they watch "Winter on Fire", give blood, and spit out putin's name when they are forced to mention it. They are Ukrainians. --Taivo (talk) 23:40, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
- 1. I am not a diaspora Ukrainian or any kind of Ukrainian. 2. At a time that is clearly important to her (the baptism of her newborn daughter), and in a public yet relatively intimate setting (her Instagram account), Jovovich effectually refers to herself as Russian, talks about speaking Russian with her newborn daughter and baptizing her at a Russian church. Nothing about Ukraine or Ukrainianness is mentioned at all. This is during a time when there is a serious conflict between Russia and Ukraine. The obvious implication is that the woman identifies as Russian more than Ukrainian. What more does she have to do to establish that - join the Novorossia Armed Forces? After this Instagram post, I have little doubt that most people here will agree that she does not identify as an ethnic Ukrainian. You bring up your wife's family but they have nothing to do with this. Jovovich is not volunteering at hospitals or singing Ukraine's anthem. You've invested a lot of emotional energy in this argument and I don't understand why. There are other people who could take her place. It's clear that she is not a good candidate for the Ukrainians collage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.172.98.164 (talk) 00:56, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
- IP, in my opinion you have provided evidence that demonstrates that Jovovich identifies as a Russian (her mother is an ethnic Russian, this is not surprising). However there has been plenty of evidence showing that she also identifies as Ukrainian. Once can certainly have multiple identities. It seems that she does.Faustian (talk) 04:39, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
- 1. I am not a diaspora Ukrainian or any kind of Ukrainian. 2. At a time that is clearly important to her (the baptism of her newborn daughter), and in a public yet relatively intimate setting (her Instagram account), Jovovich effectually refers to herself as Russian, talks about speaking Russian with her newborn daughter and baptizing her at a Russian church. Nothing about Ukraine or Ukrainianness is mentioned at all. This is during a time when there is a serious conflict between Russia and Ukraine. The obvious implication is that the woman identifies as Russian more than Ukrainian. What more does she have to do to establish that - join the Novorossia Armed Forces? After this Instagram post, I have little doubt that most people here will agree that she does not identify as an ethnic Ukrainian. You bring up your wife's family but they have nothing to do with this. Jovovich is not volunteering at hospitals or singing Ukraine's anthem. You've invested a lot of emotional energy in this argument and I don't understand why. There are other people who could take her place. It's clear that she is not a good candidate for the Ukrainians collage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.172.98.164 (talk) 00:56, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
- You have a very simplistic notion of what "Ukrainian" means obviously. My wife's mother's family has been Ukrainian since long before family memory, yet they speak Russian and have sometimes called themselves "Russian" even though they are thoroughly Ukrainians. It's not as clear-cut as you and other diaspora Ukrainians seem to think it is. They volunteer at hospitals, sing the national anthem with gusto, cry when they watch "Winter on Fire", give blood, and spit out putin's name when they are forced to mention it. They are Ukrainians. --Taivo (talk) 23:40, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
- Taivo, in the link above, Jovovich refers to another instagrammer as "a fellow Russian". Doesn't that mean anything to you? She talks about speaking Russian with her newborn daughter (not Ukrainian, why?), baptizing her daughter in a Russian church, refers to another person as a fellow Russian (not a Ukrainian). According to you, this means nothing? At the very least it calls into question her supposed self-identification as Ukrainian. One would think that a time like this, when Russia and Ukraine are in conflict, that a self-identified Ukrainian would at least mention something about Ukraine in there somehow, but no - there's nothing about Ukraine. I call for a new vote in light of new evidence. It's plainly obvious that she identifies as Russian more than Ukrainian. You claim that "she sings in Ukrainian now" as if that would make her ethnic Ukrainian. There are plenty of ethnic Russians and others, including famous singers, who have sung in Ukrainian at some point - it doesn't mean that they identify as ethnic Ukrainians. Regarding "my people struggling in the [sic] Ukraine" - that's not the same thing as ethnic Ukrainians.104.172.98.164 (talk) 20:20, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
- As I also mentioned above, it doesn't matter which Orthodox church she goes to in the US. You seem to think that Ukrainian nationality is tied to particular church membership when Ukrainians in Ukraine are members of several different Christian and Jewish organizations. You are simply trying to find any sliver of evidence that Jovovich hasn't identified as Ukrainian. But you simply refuse to admit that Wikipedia editors have overwhelmingly agreed that she was Ukrainian and there is no evidence here that you have changed anyone's mind. Ukrainians accept her as Ukrainian, she said that she spoke Ukrainian as a child, she sings in Ukrainian now, she calls Ukrainians "her people", etc. And your reference to a "beatdown" is childish to say the least. You have no new evidence to present and have failed to counter any of the evidence that presents her as Ukrainian. --Taivo (talk) 11:42, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
- Oh Taivo is in for a beatdown here. Straight from Milla's own instagram: millajovovichGood morning everyone! I want to thank the super talented @mariagraziabruna (also a fellow Russian) for documenting Dashiel Edan's baptism last Friday! When we speak Russian we call her "Dasha", so her Saint's name is "Daria" (Дария). Amazing fact, Dashiel was born on April 1st which is also Saint Daria's Day! Amazing, right? She was born on the day of her namesake patron saint! (The christening was held at a traditional Russian Orthodox Church here in Los Angeles and its respectful for women to cover their heads before entering.) She just sent me this pic and it's so gorgeous!!! 104.172.98.164 (talk) 05:28, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
- Unless you have a genetic test that you are willing to administer to everyone you think "deserves" to be listed here, then we have to take their word for it based on interviews. Jovovich has passed muster here time and time again on this Talk Page. Unless you can actually build a consensus, then you are wasting time here. --Taivo (talk) 07:35, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
- She identifies herself as Ukrainian. You just don't seem to understand. And many Ukrainians also practice the "Russian Orthodox" religion. Do you honestly think that American media makes a distinction between the various and sundry varieties of Orthodoxy practiced in Ukraine? Or, like everything else, do they bundle everything together under "Russian Orthodox"? And if a Ukrainian speaker of Ukrainian parents living in Lviv converted to Presbyterianism, would you then claim that they were no longer Ukrainian? She doesn't speak Russian anymore either (my wife is a Russian-speaking Ukrainian and tells me that Jovovich's Russian is also very rusty). You are just continually trying to push your POV against a solid consensus that Jovovich should be here. And I haven't "theorized" anything. The facts are pretty simple--Jovovich claims to be Ukrainian, she was born in Ukraine, she spoke Ukrainian as a child, she sings Ukrainian folk songs in Ukrainian. --Taivo (talk) 07:26, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
- Who says she identifies culturally as a Ukrainian? She's Russian Orthodox. Milla Jovovich celebrates her Russian heritage. She cannot speak Ukrainian anymore either. In fact I just found out her family moved to Ukraine just before she was born and left a few years afterward,[12] so there's no chance of any distant Ukrainian blood, as Taivo theorized. --Steverci (talk) 05:41, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
- For what it's worth, I agree with Taivo, above. Identifying oneself as a Ukrainian culturally regardless of "blood" ought to be enough. She wasn't just a self-identified Russian, Pole, etc. who happened to be born on Ukrainian territory (such as Joseph Conrad, or Mikhail Bulgakov), she actually speaks and sings in Ukrainian and has described herself as such. This is rather clear. Faustian (talk) 19:23, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
- Just look at the articles on Mazepa and Gogol and you'll see that they have one parent who is not what you consider "Ukrainian"--a pureblood. But all of your assertions are just your own original research anyway. And your comment that the mark of being ethnic Ukrainian is support for Bandera is simply laughable. Do you honestly believe that all Ukrainians supported him? That's just a ridiculous "mark" of Ukrainianness and pushes your personal POV without being any measure of ethnicity whatsoever. But because Wikipedia runs on actual sources and not on your personal POV, here is a clear, unambiguous reference that Jovovich identifies as Ukrainian and spoke Ukrainian as a child: [8]. She also sings Ukrainian folk songs in Ukrainian: [9]. She also consistently identifies with "her people" in Ukraine: [10]. Her own words are definitive. We've talked about this before and have a clear and unequivocal consensus that she belongs here as a Ukrainian: [11]. Unless you can convince a consensus of editors of your POV in defiance of Ms. Jovovich's own words, then she stays. --Taivo (talk) 13:05, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
- Taivo, you said that Mazepa was half Lithuanian and that Gogol's mother was Polish - that's plainly false. You claim that Jovovich spoke Ukrainian as a child. That's almost certainly false. Where would she even learn it from from back then? Most ethnic Russians and other non-ethnic Ukrainians in Ukraine do not speak Ukrainian among themselves. The only ones who speak Ukrainian on any kind of regular basis are those that live in predominantly Ukrainian-speaking areas - mostly in western Ukraine. Plenty of pure ethnic Ukrainians born in Ukraine did not grow up speaking Ukrainian. This is really basic stuff that anyone familiar with the area would know. But we're supposed to believe that Jovovich was speaking Ukrainian as a child while living in complete isolation from Ukraine back in the 80s? Ducktales. And the thing is, even if she was, it wouldn't make her ethnic Ukrainian. Even identifying with the country of Ukraine doesn't make one ethnic Ukrainian. You really think that Jovovich identifies herself with the likes of Bandera and Konovalets? That she considers them her "co-ethnics"? I mean, you don't find that comical yourself? 104.172.98.164 (talk) 09:44, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
- We're not talking about Smirnoff anymore or are you unable to read the past discussion? And there is a consensus for including Jovovich. Your objections are simply your personal opinion and not based on any facts. While Smirnoff doesn't identify herself as Ukrainian, Jovovich certainly does. Read the archives (link above) and you will see the clear evidence from interviews that Jovovich has given. Your ethnic purity POV is simply irrelevant. There are more factors in determining ethnicity than just blood. --Taivo (talk) 05:36, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
- Taivo, do you understand what an ethnic group is? Because it doesn't seem like you do. You say that Smirnoff is "called Ukrainian" on her site, but this is not the same thing as being "ethnic Ukrainian". Any citizen of Ukraine is "Ukrainian" in that sense - what else would they be called? You're not leaving any room for someone to acknowledge themselves as being a Ukrainian citizen, but not an ethnic Ukrainian. A lot of people were born in Ukraine and/or have Ukrainian citizenship but are not ethnic Ukrainians. What is it that you don't understand about this? You claim that there is a "consensus" here to leave a person with no known Ukrainian ancestry as a representative of ethnic Ukrainians in the collage. I don't believe that there is any such consensus. I think that any reasonable person would agree that someone who has no known Ukrainian ancestry should not be described as an ethnic Ukrainian, period. Including such people essentially defeats the purpose of the article. And I would note that the only person talking about "racial purity" here is you. This has nothing to do with racial purity. I personally would not object to a mixed person with substantial ethnic Ukrainian ancestry, who identifies as ethnic Ukrainian, being in the collage. The problem is that I haven't seen any evidence that either Smirnoff or Jovovich has any Ukrainian ancestry, and I don't believe for one second that either one of them identifies as an ethnic Ukrainian. Again, there is a difference between identifying with Ukraine as a territory or state, and identifying as an ethnic Ukrainian. 104.172.98.164 (talk) 00:47, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
- Consensus is what he makes of it, Taivo. Following it would contradict his whole raison d'être. As you may note, consensus for not having a gallery on the Romanians article reached by about 7 regular editors who'd had enough of the edit wars and constant changes to the gallery is up for being tested for WP:CCC after 3 days to 3 months by trying to sneak a gallery back... as with the Russians article, etc. Naturally, I couldn't possibly understand what consensus means as I don't take a single edit or comment by an IP to be an indication of consensus having changed. Sigh. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:44, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- "Rules are rules"? Please point out these "rules". I'll tell you a "rule": WP:CONSENSUS. Ever read that one? There is a consensus for including Jovovich. I'll provide you the link one more time: [7]. And the consensus was overwhelming at the time. You are just grasping at straws. Jovovich self-identifies as Ukrainian and Smirnoff does not. Jovovich spoke Ukrainian when she immigrated to the US and was known as a "Ukrainian kid". Do you have a DNA test to prove "Ukrainianness"? No? Ethnicity is not solely based on genetics or even on language. It is also based on cultural identification. Ukrainians claim her as Ukrainian and the overwhelming consensus of Wikipedia editors is to include her. Your personal bias doesn't really matter. --Taivo (talk) 11:17, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
- I assumed you had looked at her article at some point, but allow me to point out her mother is Russian in addition to her father being a Serb. So she has no proven Ukrainian ancestry. Someone should have at least some in order to be passable. A shame because she's probably the most famous of the three, but rules are rules. She might have called herself Ukrainian a few times but she also calls herself Russian and can speak Serbian and Russian, can she speak Ukrainian anymore? Doesn't seem so. And before you say the same logic with Smirnoff again, it's you who is promoting original research by assuming Russians and Ukrainians must be the same people somewhere down the line, etc. And after we remove Smirnoff, St. Vladimir, and the model there will be two spots sticking out. We should keep it square by making it 5x5. So two need to go, and one will probably be Jovovich. --Steverci (talk) 06:31, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
- And your reasoning that she can't be Ukrainian because her father wasn't Ukrainian is faulty. Yuliya Tymoshenko's father was latvian. Ivan Mazepa was half Lithuanian. Nikolai Gogol's mother was Polish. Roxelana might have been Polish or Rusyn rather than Ukrainian. Dmitry Bortniansky's father was Polish-Rusyn. Indeed, unless you have a legitimate DNA test and have results for each and every one of the individuals on the collage, you are simply pushing your POV through original research. All of these individuals have some level of Ukrainian ancestry and all claim to be Ukrainians. (Jovovich even spoke Ukrainian as an immigrant child in the US.) Ukrainians also claim Jovovich as theirs. When I was living in Ukraine, her movies were very popular and Ukrainians were always telling me, "She's Ukrainian." --Taivo (talk) 05:47, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
- Jovovich has been agreed upon for over a year now (nearly two [6]). She, herself, says that she is Ukrainian. The references are above if you actually took the time to read the rest of the Talk Page and the archives. She stays, as does Farmiga and Palance. All have been the subject of discussion and agreement in the past. You are not the arbiter of "racial purity" here. Jovovich passes muster and claims to be Ukrainian herself. --Taivo (talk) 05:26, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
- You should examine your own schnoz first Iryna. I could say the same about you in these kinds of discussions, you must have at least 30 beans from the Romanians article alone by now. And in case you didn't bother the read the discussion over, I'm not the one who called for a (now consensus) change, an IP user did and I simply joined in and helped achieve said consensus. --Steverci (talk) 03:08, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
- Those two articles you cite about Smirnoff are 1000 times more reliable than a tweet, which is still not a reliable source. So I would be willing to remove Smirnoff since she specifically doesn't claim to be Ukrainian (the same reason that I've never advocated including Mila Kunis, because she never claims to be Ukrainian). But your claims that the other three I've listed are "obscure" is simply your own POV. I would argue that nearly every one of the other "celebrities" on the entire Ukrainian list are more obscure to our English-speaking readers. I had never heard of Shevchenko until I started encountering him in every town square when I lived in Ukraine. Jovovich, Palance, and Farmiga (I'm advocating for those three in the contemporary celebrity group, not the perfume model) are all recognizable to many American readers--they should not be replaced. --Taivo (talk) 08:05, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
- The first source just simply states she's from Ukraine, not Ukrainian. The second source is just some manager's words. Her Twitter account is verified so it's a legitimate source, plus she has called herself Greek and Russian in other places [3] [4]. I'd like to see a source where she calls herself Ukrainian. She hardly lived in independent Ukraine at all and is from a city at the Russian border. One would think the readers would come to this article to learn more about Ukrainians, not obscure celebrities they might have seen on TV once or twice. Still for varieties sake that's why I'd consider Jovovich, but the rest are too much, no one cares about the model of a random French perfume company. --Steverci (talk) 04:56, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
Actually, IP, your assumption that Jovovich has taken Russia's side in the current conflict is utterly laughable. You clearly haven't read Jovovich's comments in support of Ukraine ("my people", referring to Ukrainians, not Russians, is a common refrain) since the beginning of the conflict.[13], [14] And while Jovovich isn't volunteering at Ukrainian hospitals (it would be difficult since she lives in the US), she has, indeed, helped to raise money for the victims of violence in Kyiv. You might also note that her mother actually grew up in Dnipropetrovsk. --Taivo (talk) 05:45, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
- Taivo, from your own link, she said, referring to the Maidan violence: 'I cannot jump to conclusions, there are always such grey areas in power struggles and the only “side” I will take is the one that will try and get help to the people who have nothing to do with all this, the mothers, their children and the elderly.' That's a rather interesting "expression of support" for Ukraine, to say the least. Furthermore, why are you even bringing up links from February 23, 2014? There was no open Russia-Ukraine conflict then. She's had plenty of time since then to make clear that she has taken Ukraine's side and to emphasize her supposed Ukrainian identity - but she hasn't done that, has she? Again, in describing moments that are clearly dear to her, she talks about Russianness, rather than Ukrainianness. And this is at a time when there is a serious conflict between Russia and Ukraine. No one who really identifies as an ethnic Ukrainian and a Ukrainian patriot does that. You can't get around that, Taivo. 104.172.98.164 (talk) 06:36, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
- Faustian, if that is true (and I don't think it is; I think she was just being politically correct for the media at times), then she shouldn't be "privatized" by the Ukrainians collage alone like this. I also want to make clear that I have no intention of including her in any Russians collage or anything like that. My "agenda" here is to prevent the kind of thing I mention in the "Ethnic map" section of this Talk page. What's funny is that neither Smirnoff, Jovovich, nor Pavlichenko is on the Ukrainian wiki version of the Ukrainians collage - though it's not particularly surprising. 104.172.98.164 (talk) 06:48, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
- IP, obviously you have collapsed months of history of Euromaidan into a single moment of time and applied it to the moment of time that Jovovich made her "neutral" comment. Ethnic Ukrainians were, indeed, lining up on both sides and in the middle of the action at the Maidan. It was only after the Russian invasion of Crimea and the Donbass that unanimity began to develop. That was after Jovovich made her comments. But support for or against a particular political point of view has never been a valid mark of ethnicity. Jovovich's comments, if you actually read them, clearly show that she calls Ukrainians "my people" at different points and that her actions were clearly in support of Ukrainians--both morally and financially. You're just nit-picking now and trying to establish marks of ethnicity that would elicit gales of laughter from any scholarly ethnologist. And since you don't seem to have convinced anyone of your point of view concerning Jovovich, you are becoming repetitive and wasting our time. You seem to have a personal crusade going on here that is, in the end, pointless and is not directed at improving Wikipedia. And it doesn't matter what the Ukrainian wiki does--there are different goals for the Ukrainian site than there are for the English language site. One of the goals of the English language site is to inform English speakers by including people that English speakers would recognize. The Ukrainians don't include anyone that readers from the English speaking world would recognize. But we include them here because they are of interest to English speakers, even if they are not of interest to Ukrainian speakers. You seem to be determined to ignore every bit of evidence that Jovovich has called herself Ukrainian and that there is evidence that she can legitimately do that. Ethnicity can be chosen and ethnologists have recognized that. A good example are the captives of the Comanche in the 19th century. While they remained, of course, genetically Anglo or Mexican, the majority of them learned the Comanche language, adopted the Comanche lifestyle, and remained with the Comanche for the remainder of their lives. They became Comanche. While ethnographers might mention that they were captives, they are still included as part of the description of Comanche people and lifeways. They were considered by the tribe to be fully Comanche. --Taivo (talk) 10:29, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
- Taivo, it is you who brought up political views as a valid marker of ethnicity, not me. It is you who brought up "singing the anthem with gusto" and "spitting out" Putin's name - not me. I simply pointed out that her political views aren't what you claim they are. Right after the Maidan shootings, she failed to come out in support of the Maidan vs the evil Yanukovich, instead talking about "I cannot jump to conclusions, there are always such grey areas in power struggles..." and so on. As for "my people in the [sic] Ukraine" - it wasn't just ethnic Ukrainians on the Maidan, on both sides. Therefore you can't use that statement to prove that she identifies as ethnically Ukrainian - and you know that. You say that I'm determined to ignore evidence - but that's exactly what you're doing. You've brought up her singing a song in Ukrainian, but she's also sung in Russian - which you've ignored. I've brought up evidence that, frankly, outweighs yours by a lot: her own recent comments surrounding moments that are clearly dear to her, during a time of conflict between Russia and Ukraine, where she effectually calls herself Russian, while not mentioning Ukraine at all. That's not a minor little detail, Taivo. It's the elephant in the room right now. You say that I haven't convinced anyone - based on what? I seem to have at least partially convinced Faustian, and no one else has commented yet. 104.172.98.164 (talk) 19:58, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
- Actually, it was you who brought up politics, but nevertheless, I never said that she was singing the national anthem with gusto, you need to actually read what I wrote. But your "evidence" still doesn't outweigh or negate mine. The consensus from last year hasn't changed and you haven't changed anyone's mind about excluding her from this page. The one person besides the two of us who has said anything still accepts her as Ukrainian although pointing out that claiming multiple ethnicities is not uncommon. Without a new consensus, then the old one still stands. So far all the effort you've expended at pushing your POV has yielded you nothing. --Taivo (talk) 23:25, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
- Taivo, it is you who brought up political views as a valid marker of ethnicity, not me. It is you who brought up "singing the anthem with gusto" and "spitting out" Putin's name - not me. I simply pointed out that her political views aren't what you claim they are. Right after the Maidan shootings, she failed to come out in support of the Maidan vs the evil Yanukovich, instead talking about "I cannot jump to conclusions, there are always such grey areas in power struggles..." and so on. As for "my people in the [sic] Ukraine" - it wasn't just ethnic Ukrainians on the Maidan, on both sides. Therefore you can't use that statement to prove that she identifies as ethnically Ukrainian - and you know that. You say that I'm determined to ignore evidence - but that's exactly what you're doing. You've brought up her singing a song in Ukrainian, but she's also sung in Russian - which you've ignored. I've brought up evidence that, frankly, outweighs yours by a lot: her own recent comments surrounding moments that are clearly dear to her, during a time of conflict between Russia and Ukraine, where she effectually calls herself Russian, while not mentioning Ukraine at all. That's not a minor little detail, Taivo. It's the elephant in the room right now. You say that I haven't convinced anyone - based on what? I seem to have at least partially convinced Faustian, and no one else has commented yet. 104.172.98.164 (talk) 19:58, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
- IP, obviously you have collapsed months of history of Euromaidan into a single moment of time and applied it to the moment of time that Jovovich made her "neutral" comment. Ethnic Ukrainians were, indeed, lining up on both sides and in the middle of the action at the Maidan. It was only after the Russian invasion of Crimea and the Donbass that unanimity began to develop. That was after Jovovich made her comments. But support for or against a particular political point of view has never been a valid mark of ethnicity. Jovovich's comments, if you actually read them, clearly show that she calls Ukrainians "my people" at different points and that her actions were clearly in support of Ukrainians--both morally and financially. You're just nit-picking now and trying to establish marks of ethnicity that would elicit gales of laughter from any scholarly ethnologist. And since you don't seem to have convinced anyone of your point of view concerning Jovovich, you are becoming repetitive and wasting our time. You seem to have a personal crusade going on here that is, in the end, pointless and is not directed at improving Wikipedia. And it doesn't matter what the Ukrainian wiki does--there are different goals for the Ukrainian site than there are for the English language site. One of the goals of the English language site is to inform English speakers by including people that English speakers would recognize. The Ukrainians don't include anyone that readers from the English speaking world would recognize. But we include them here because they are of interest to English speakers, even if they are not of interest to Ukrainian speakers. You seem to be determined to ignore every bit of evidence that Jovovich has called herself Ukrainian and that there is evidence that she can legitimately do that. Ethnicity can be chosen and ethnologists have recognized that. A good example are the captives of the Comanche in the 19th century. While they remained, of course, genetically Anglo or Mexican, the majority of them learned the Comanche language, adopted the Comanche lifestyle, and remained with the Comanche for the remainder of their lives. They became Comanche. While ethnographers might mention that they were captives, they are still included as part of the description of Comanche people and lifeways. They were considered by the tribe to be fully Comanche. --Taivo (talk) 10:29, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
- Faustian, if that is true (and I don't think it is; I think she was just being politically correct for the media at times), then she shouldn't be "privatized" by the Ukrainians collage alone like this. I also want to make clear that I have no intention of including her in any Russians collage or anything like that. My "agenda" here is to prevent the kind of thing I mention in the "Ethnic map" section of this Talk page. What's funny is that neither Smirnoff, Jovovich, nor Pavlichenko is on the Ukrainian wiki version of the Ukrainians collage - though it's not particularly surprising. 104.172.98.164 (talk) 06:48, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
Vladimir the Great was of Swedish ancestry
Vladimir the Great was not of Slavic ancestry and in the age in which he lived there were only Eastern Slavs, no Ukrainians, no Belarusians, no Russians and no Ruthenians.--Rochus Hügler (talk) 12:03, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
- I agree. He shouldn't be listed as a Ukrainian (or as a Russian for that matter). But the two of us probably don't make consensus.Faustian (talk) 14:47, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
Replace Karina Smirnoff with Maksim Chmerkovskiy
Both are famous for being on the same TV show, Dancing with the Stars (U.S. TV series). The former is half-Russian, half-Greek from Kharkiv and doesn't seem to feature her Ukrainian ancestry much. The latter is Ukrainian-Jewish from Odessa and has featured his Ukrainian heritage on the show. Having both of them on the table would be excessive, but Maksym would be a much better fit.Faustian (talk) 14:53, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
Proposal for the deletion of all the galleries of personalities from the articles about ethnic groups
Seemingly there is a significant number of commentators which support the general removal of infobox collages. I think there is a great opportunity to get a general agreement on this matter. It is clear that it has to be a broad consensus, which must involve as many editors as possible, otherwise there is a big risk for this decision to be challenged in the near future. I opened a Request for comment process, hoping that more people will adhere to this proposal. Please comment here. Hahun (talk) 07:14, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
This Article is about ethnic Ukrainians
Vladimir the Great was a Swede, Khmelnytsky was a Ruthenian, Yulia Tymoshenko and the Klitschko Brothers are partly of Jewish descent and Smirnoff is of Russian and Greek descent.--Arensnuphis Huitzilopochtli Argi (talk) 16:06, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
- And until you provide genetic testing and a 100% foolproof, exceptionless measure of what constitutes an "ethnic Ukrainian", then we still work on consensus and you have not built a consensus. The only consensus that has been formed is to replace Smirnoff with Maksim Chmerkovsky, not just delete without replacement. --Taivo (talk) 17:41, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
(edit conflict)::Ruthenian was an old word for Ukrainians and Belarussians, being of partial Jewish descent does not make one not an ethnic Ukrainian. Agree about Yaroslav, but there doesn't seem to be a consensus for such a change. Achieve consensus on the talk page before removing stuff, please.Faustian (talk) 17:44, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
- TaivoLinguist please replace Smirnoff with Chmerkovsky amd delete Vladimir the Great, who as Ukrainian as Katherina the Great was Russian.--141.19.228.15 (talk) 17:32, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
- Faustian, Khmelnytsky was probably a Belrusian or even a Pole, so it doesn't make sense call him Ukrainian.--141.19.228.15 (talk) 17:34, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
- I'm not interested in doing the work to replace Smirnoff with Chmerkovskiy, but I don't oppose someone who does. And I oppose deleting Vlad the Great because there is no consensus for it. In addition, I oppose your criteria for deciding that Khmelnytsky (and Vladimir for that matter) are not Ukrainian. --Taivo (talk) 18:44, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
- Indeed, there is currently a discussion going on that would remove these pointless galleries of famous people from the infoboxes of ethnicity articles like this one entirely so spending time working on them right now will eventually be pointless (since the overwhelming census is to remove them). --Taivo (talk) 18:46, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
- I'm not interested in doing the work to replace Smirnoff with Chmerkovskiy, but I don't oppose someone who does. And I oppose deleting Vlad the Great because there is no consensus for it. In addition, I oppose your criteria for deciding that Khmelnytsky (and Vladimir for that matter) are not Ukrainian. --Taivo (talk) 18:44, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
- Faustian, Khmelnytsky was probably a Belrusian or even a Pole, so it doesn't make sense call him Ukrainian.--141.19.228.15 (talk) 17:34, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
Photo gallery removed per Wikipedia-wide consensus
After a Wikipedia-wide consensus was reached at [15] to remove photo galleries in infoboxes and replace them with photos of typical members of the ethnic group, I have replaced the photo gallery with a photo of typical modern Ukrainians in contemporary Ukrainian dress clothing. This is a Wikipedia-wide consensus so it applies here and at all articles concerned with ethnicities and nationalities. The point is to eliminate the eternal and time-consuming edit wars and discussions trying to hone the minutiae of who is, is not, and might be a famous Ukrainian. It was affecting articles throughout Wikipedia and the new consensus will help to alleviate the problem. This is simply a nice photo I had from my time living there and I'm not married to it if anyone has a better one. The photo should show typical Ukrainians. --Taivo (talk) 11:10, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
- Good job. It's unfortunate that silly arguments led to having to remove photo galleries, but it's for the best.Faustian (talk) 16:17, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
- What is "typical Ukrainians"? Cathry (talk) 00:19, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
- This is common traditional dress for Ukrainians. Of course, they go to work and school in tshirts and business suits, but this is the contemporary version of traditional styles. --Taivo (talk) 01:04, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
- No it is not. It is neither traditional neither modern. Tratidional Ukraininan dress is like that https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:HorodenkaFamilyOld.jpg , modern is the same with all other world. I don't like picture you adding, it is like add some man in cowboy hat and the tuxedo to demonstrate "typical American" Cathry (talk) 03:45, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
- I lived in Ukraine and I saw this style of dress all the time in western Ukraine and since the current troubles it has spread to eastern Ukraine as well. Indeed, there is now a national day of celebration of this style. I got married in this style. I didn't say it was "traditional" in the sense that it exactly replicates the old style. I said it was a "contemporary version" that is common in modern Ukraine. Few people wear the traditional pants, but the traditional style of shirt is very common. The photo, by the way, was taken on a Sunday afternoon in Ivano-Frankivsk and these young people had just finished a pleasant meal after a wedding. --Taivo (talk) 03:53, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
- No it is not. It is neither traditional neither modern. Tratidional Ukraininan dress is like that https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:HorodenkaFamilyOld.jpg , modern is the same with all other world. I don't like picture you adding, it is like add some man in cowboy hat and the tuxedo to demonstrate "typical American" Cathry (talk) 03:45, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
- This is common traditional dress for Ukrainians. Of course, they go to work and school in tshirts and business suits, but this is the contemporary version of traditional styles. --Taivo (talk) 01:04, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
- What is "typical Ukrainians"? Cathry (talk) 00:19, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
- I think your photo is suitable for Culture section, and there is no consensus to replace gallery with photos of typical members of the ethnic group because it is impossible to find photo of "typical member" and it is obviously original research Cathry (talk) 04:48, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
- I'm predisposed to leaving the image parameter blank for the moment. Even looking at the photo Cathry suggested, I recognised what region in Western Ukraine they were from immediately. There are dozens of regional folk costumes which are quite different from each other. I've conveniently happened on a set of regional folk costume cards I owned as a girl: see this page. I don't believe that selecting one regional photo is the solution to illustrating 'typical' Ukrainians. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:20, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
- I'll defer to User:Iryna Harpy. --Taivo (talk) 06:36, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
- Cheers, Taivo. Considering that there are discussions underway as to the merit of images for ethnic group infoboxes (potentially encompassing a far broader scope of image galleries, as well as individual images as being representative of the subject of the article), I suspect (and hope) that the default may become no image. Let's see how it evolves as a process of elimination. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:30, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
- I'll defer to User:Iryna Harpy. --Taivo (talk) 06:36, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
- I'm predisposed to leaving the image parameter blank for the moment. Even looking at the photo Cathry suggested, I recognised what region in Western Ukraine they were from immediately. There are dozens of regional folk costumes which are quite different from each other. I've conveniently happened on a set of regional folk costume cards I owned as a girl: see this page. I don't believe that selecting one regional photo is the solution to illustrating 'typical' Ukrainians. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:20, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
- I think your photo is suitable for Culture section, and there is no consensus to replace gallery with photos of typical members of the ethnic group because it is impossible to find photo of "typical member" and it is obviously original research Cathry (talk) 04:48, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to 10 external links on Ukrainians. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/20070706003257/http://www.ukrcensus.gov.ua:80/eng/results/general/nationality/ to http://www.ukrcensus.gov.ua/eng/results/general/nationality
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100111042053/http://belstat.gov.by:80/homep/en/census/2009/main.php to http://belstat.gov.by/homep/en/census/2009/main.php
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/20050207175738/http://ucrania.com:80/article_read.asp?id=69 to http://www.ucrania.com/article_read.asp?id=69
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/20131227233709/http://www.ucrania.com/Articulos/tabid/57/ctl/Details/mid/388/ItemID/1/language/en-US/Default.aspx to http://www.ucrania.com/Articulos/tabid/57/ctl/Details/mid/388/ItemID/1/language/en-US/Default.aspx
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/20120105155543/http://www.ukrinform.ua/eng/order/?id=168280 to http://www.ukrinform.ua/eng/order/?id=168280
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/20061128150638/http://www.zerkalo-nedeli.com:80/nn/show/420/36833 to http://www.zerkalo-nedeli.com/nn/show/420/36833/
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/20060420062241/http://www.britannica.com:80/eb/article-9074133 to http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9074133
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/20101130221837/http://www.ukrcensus.gov.ua:80/results/general/language/ to http://www.ukrcensus.gov.ua/results/general/language/
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/20091012050902/http://www.ukrcensus.gov.ua:80/eng/results/general/language/ to http://www.ukrcensus.gov.ua/eng/results/general/language/
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/20110727082859/http://worldmusic.nationalgeographic.com/view/page.basic/country/content.country/ukraine/en_US to http://worldmusic.nationalgeographic.com/view/page.basic/country/content.country/ukraine/en_US
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External links modified
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http://web.archive.org/web/20051125025057/http://www.zerkalo-nedeli.com:80/ie/show/555/50610/
http://web.archive.org/web/20051112171542/http://www.zn.kiev.ua:80/ie/show/555/50610/
http://web.archive.org/web/20051104020412/http://www.zn.kiev.ua:80/ie/show/543/49862/
http://web.archive.org/web/20051125043717/http://www.zerkalo-nedeli.com:80/nn/show/328/29376/
http://web.archive.org/web/20051106071949/http://www.zn.kiev.ua:80/ie/show/328/29376/
http://web.archive.org/web/20051201052452/http://www.zerkalo-nedeli.com:80/nn/show/378/33582/
http://web.archive.org/web/20051105214750/http://www.zn.kiev.ua:80/ie/show/378/33582/
http://web.archive.org/web/20080227100652/http://www.coletta.de/kolonien/Die%20Voelker%20Europas%201914%20xxl.jpg
http://web.archive.org/web/20080303112904/http://cla.calpoly.edu:80/~mriedlsp/History315/Maps/map2.html
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Note that failed capture (only 404 captures existed) was replaced by active link to same file. Thanks, Cyberbot II. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:32, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
Genetics
It won't do, as happened a few times now, that users add their own opinions to sourced text, if the material added is not in the sources given or in contradiction to what is in the sources given. No matter what you personally may think about the matter at hand. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 17:10, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- I have now repeatedly reinstated the sentence "Early migrations could give equal rise to groups like J and E" in the genetics section. As that sentence is stating the obvious. I'm no fan of these sections on pages on ethnic groups. The data are manifold while testgroups are small and dna locusses investigated are few. The data can either be nitpicked to express the obvious or to associate or dissacociate your ethnicity of choice with others. I'm not saying it is of no interest at all but I'm not happy with them and I will start an RFC on the project page for these types of articles. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 14:54, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
- Hello User:Blucdgl. You now write in your edit summary “I made a mistake; I thought that the two J-carrying men were from the yamna culture rather than Georgia”. From the sources you provided I understood that they came from Georgia but were ancestral to elements within the Yamna culture and carried the J2 haplogroup. And now the whole episode has disappeared from the section. While J2 has now returned to mark the earlier immigration of the first agriculturalists… (which were decidedly not the Yamna culture nor Georgian hunter gatherers) while you (and the sources you provided earlier but have now removed) earlier associated it with early Georgian hunter gatherers. What are we supposed to make of that? Also we now read that “Haplogroup R1a marks the migration patterns of some of the early Indo-Europeans” instead of an earlier text that associated the said haplogroup with them outright. Which the source provided clearly indicates as well. J2 (instead of just J) is now associated with agriculturalists instead of with Georgian hunter gatherers? I wasn’t all that glad with this stuff anyway, but it’s not getting any better. I restored an older version of this….. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 21:52, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
- So you use this dispute over one or two sentences as a non-sequiter excuse to vandalize the entire section by blanking it. That is highly dishonest of you. If you have a dispute over a sentence, then edit the sentence; don't vandal-blank the whole section. Blucdgl (talk) 16:59, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Blucdgl: Please use this talk page before any more editing is undertaken. I've restored the version where the genetics section has been removed until such a time as WP:CONSENSUS has been established regarding the development of an already contentious section. 1) DNA research is in its infancy; 2) interpretation of DNA research by amateur enthusiasts will and does overstep WP:NOR on this and other articles on ethnic groups. Much of such content is dependent on WP:PRIMARY sources and it inevitably results in convoluted, potentially misleading content that the reader can't wade through. At best, it meets with WP:ITSINTERESTING or WP:ITSIMPORTANT... but, fundamentally, it is beyond the scope of ethnic group articles because we're not specialists and only WP:POV is served with sweeping generalisations.
- Hello User:Blucdgl. You now write in your edit summary “I made a mistake; I thought that the two J-carrying men were from the yamna culture rather than Georgia”. From the sources you provided I understood that they came from Georgia but were ancestral to elements within the Yamna culture and carried the J2 haplogroup. And now the whole episode has disappeared from the section. While J2 has now returned to mark the earlier immigration of the first agriculturalists… (which were decidedly not the Yamna culture nor Georgian hunter gatherers) while you (and the sources you provided earlier but have now removed) earlier associated it with early Georgian hunter gatherers. What are we supposed to make of that? Also we now read that “Haplogroup R1a marks the migration patterns of some of the early Indo-Europeans” instead of an earlier text that associated the said haplogroup with them outright. Which the source provided clearly indicates as well. J2 (instead of just J) is now associated with agriculturalists instead of with Georgian hunter gatherers? I wasn’t all that glad with this stuff anyway, but it’s not getting any better. I restored an older version of this….. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 21:52, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
- You've leapt in and started developing the section too enthusiastically. Other regular editors haven't even had a chance to look over sources or evaluate the relevance of new content being added. In short shrift, I'm asking for consensus for a moratorium on the genetics section until the matter has been thoroughly discussed here first. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:01, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
RfC: Should sections on genetics be removed from pages on ethnic groups?
If you're interested, participate and write your comment here: RfC: Should sections on genetics be removed from pages on ethnic groups? --Zyma (talk) 06:48, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
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What does it mean?
"Population of those whose mother tongue is Ukrainian in Ukraine (2001)" What does it mean? I'm confused. --TheDFPL (talk) 17:27, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
Magyarization
Discussed already Talk:Ukrainization#Magyarization, why not appropriate here.(KIENGIR (talk) 19:23, 29 March 2019 (UTC))
The Joshua Project as a source for statistics
I've just removed a minor figure in the infobox in the Russians article for Venezuela (being estimated at 4,600). Please check the Reliable sources noticeboard over the years regarding the Joshua Project. Common consensus has been that they are an interest group who are not a reliable source for census type statistics and demographics. There is no transparency of process for any of their information, and it they are not used for other ethnic group (and diasporic) articles. If they are, the figures have been snuck in or undiscussed in long standing, fairly much abandoned articles.
If no other contributors voice their objection in the next couple of weeks, I will go WP:BOLD and remove the single instance usage in this article. I note, also, that there was protest over using their estimate way back when in the archived talked here. I can't see what happened to change this. Yes, consensus can change, but not without discussion... Iryna Harpy (talk) 06:57, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
Proposed deletion of Category:Slavic countries and territories
It is currently being proposed that Category:Slavic countries and territories be deleted. This article is related to that category. The relevant discussion is located at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2020 January 8#Countries and territories by language family. The discussion would benefit from input from editors with a knowledge of and interest in Ukrainians. Krakkos (talk) 11:12, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
Languages
Hi, let's summarize and formalize criteria for adding languages into "Languages" section of "ethnic group" template of this article. What are these criteria? Manyareasexpert (talk) 08:50, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
- So the proposal is. As the article is about ethnic group, and the template is about ethnic group, the "Languages" section of "ethnic group" template should contain ethnic group's languages in ethnic sense, i.e languages as an ethnic property of an ethnic group. Applied to this article, the section should contain Ukrainian's languages as described in ethnology sources describing Ukrainians and their languages. Not the languages of citizens of Ukraine, not Ukrainian's mother languages or languages they use. Manyareasexpert (talk) 13:24, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
Changes made. Manyareasexpert (talk) 18:43, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
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A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
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The whole premise of this page is dubious
This page suggests a unity between the nationality and ethnicity of Ukrainians, and this is nonsense. What about the Tatars? Can we not consider ethnic Hungarians or Russians to be Ukrainian if they are committed to living in Ukraine? http://2001.ukrcensus.gov.ua/eng/results/general/nationality/ also mentions Belarussians, Moldavians, Poles, Jews, Armenians, Gypsies and others, and says "the representatives of more than 130 nationalities and ethnic groups live on the territory of the country." The idea that they are not Ukrainians is dangerous.Gwaka Lumpa (talk) 09:55, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
- Note the difference between citizenship, and nationality/ethnicity - that there is a Ukrainian nation is beyond dispute. Ukraine is not a nation-state, however, in that there is a large number of ethnic Russians in the eastern part of the country, and to a much lesser extent the other nationalities you mentioned. Virtually all those living in the country of Ukraine are Ukrainian citizens, however. There is nothing "dangerous" about this article [with the exception of unreferenced material], and Wiki is not the place to 'change great wrongs' anyway. 50.111.34.214 (talk) 22:45, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
Why is this article being automatically redirected to "Russians"?
Is there a rational explanation for this, or are we dealing with a certain state-sponsored vandalism? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8070:AB0:9800:E1C0:453D:E3A4:8C87 (talk) 15:03, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
- I've fixed it; an anonymous user had redirected it on the premise that "it'll happen", which makes no sense since this article is about the ethnic group. eviolite (talk) 15:06, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
Definitely vandalism. Any articles related to Ukraine, Russia, Belarus, Donbass, Crimea or the ongoing war should be locked as soon as possible. Else we'll have a vandalism competition from both sides. 88.4.56.70 (talk) 15:05, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) @2A02:8070:AB0:9800:E1C0:453D:E3A4:8C8: It seems to have been fixed. The article itself is a full page and there's no reason to redirect it like that, so we are dealing with vandalism here. I will request page protection if it is a continuous problem. ☢️Plutonical☢️ᶜᵒᵐᵐᵘⁿᶦᶜᵃᵗᶦᵒⁿˢ 15:07, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
As I said before, I'd suggest articles related to the ongoing war be protected. Vandalism will happen for such a hot issue and, while ones like these are obvious, some others may be more subtle or come from people with good intentions but a massively biased perspective. Not to mention the troll wars that we see are already happening. 88.4.56.70 (talk) 15:50, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
Editrequest
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Please indicate the disambiguation page
Please add the hatnote
{{other uses}}
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Discussion at Talk:Odessa § Requested move 11 July 2022
You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Odessa § Requested move 11 July 2022. Rei (talk) 00:31, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
Ukrainian ancestors
The lead contains a sentence (not really followed up in the body of the text), saying: "Archaeological evidence suggests that the Ukrainian people and their ancestors have lived in area of Ukraine since the 5th millennium BC" with four citations to articles in science/archaeological magazines on the Trypillia megasites. However, none of these sources provide evidence to support the claim that the habitants of those sites were the ancestors of the Ukrainians. Chapman et al. say "We are not, of course, suggesting that Trypillia megasites were in any way reflected the development of Ukrainian nationalism." The other sources are (probably judiciously, given that we're talking about 6200 years ago) completely silent on the issue. Furius (talk) 18:41, 16 August 2022 (UTC)