Talk:Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol/Archive 3

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Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3

Aut??

In the Rhaeto-Romance, Adige is Ades, Trentino is Trentin (same pronouce, but without the -o). posted by 71.106.204.137 20:57, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I found the Ladin names in these sources:
There isn't really a standardized Ladin language, so that may explain some of the differences (Alt vs. Aut, for instance). I haven't seen the name "Ades" in Ladin texts, and the combination "Alter Ades" only shows up in wikipedia (removed from the South Tyrol article in 2004, see Talk:South Tyrol/Archive 1#Alter Ades vs Sudtirol, flagsonline and clones thereof. What Rhaeto-Romance language do you refer to? It's Etsch on Romansh wikipedia. Markussep 15:14, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Umm, I have to say that Adesc just doesn't sound correct to me. I believe the Adige is Ades. Anyway, we can put both for now I guess. I assume Ades(c) Aut or Alter Ades(c) are valid. Taalo 23:49, 10 March 2007 (UTC)


Well, this is wat I saw. And I really saw no usage of "Alter Ades" except in the two (unreliable) references I gave, and in Latin, with a completely different meaning ("alter" is the Latin word for different, I don't know what "ades" means in Latin). The word order is not so strange, it's usual in most Romance languages to have the adjective after the noun. I'm afraid this whole Alter Ades thing is a bad joke, I'll remove it until someone who actually speaks Ladin (and as you can see in the earlier discussion I linked to, it was not recognized by a Ladin speaker) confirms it. You don't speak Ladin, do you? BTW I think we should only give the official names in the infobox, not all possible variations. Markussep 01:12, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Read the first line under the title (Of course, different Ladin dialects may use different names). Tridentinus 03:18, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Markussep, there are just as many uses of Altes Ades as there are Adesc Aut, if you search Google. A whole 100 or so on each side. Why not just leave it for now, since the Adesc Aut is not that much more clear to be correct. Taalo 07:00, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Taalo, take a better look at the Google hits. The search results for Alter Ades are links to wikipedia and flagsonline and clones, people saying that they've never heard of the name, and Latin phrases (e.g. "Alter ades rursus praeclare Sabine poeta."), and what's more, none of it in Ladin. On the other hand, Adesc Aut and Adesc Alt give clear links to pages in Ladin. It's best to kill a hoax before it gets even more widespread. Markussep 10:02, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Taalo, stop adding "Alter Ades" to pages until there is evidence that it is actually used in Ladin! Markussep 16:22, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Markussep, there is no need to yell. I don't believe I have changed any since you posted your last message above, have I? I was going to thank you for doing the research you did actually. The only confusion I have is really the c at the end. I've been told by family that the Adige in the local language is Ades. Maybe in Ladin they add the c? Taalo 16:28, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Yup, the last time I added it was 7:00, 11 March. *Taalo gives Markussep some Monday-morning espresso*... ;} Taalo 16:31, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

this is NOT the way to do things

for a user to go to the German wikipedia and try to get people to come over and stuff the ballot box is just completely wrong [1]. This is simply adding bias on top of bias and is completely against the spirit of trying to work together to find a compromise.

wieder ärger in en.wikipedia [Bearbeiten] Diesmal soll en:Trentino-South Tyrol umbenannt werden, bitte beteiligt euch an der Abstimmung--Martin Se !? 12:35, 5. Mär. 2007 (CET)

annoyance again in en.wikipedia. they want to change the name of trentino-south tyrol again. please go and take part in the poll.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer_Diskussion:Emes posted by 71.106.204.137 08:15, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree. What Martin Se has done is very much political. Because of this, I have chosen to extend the same invitation to users within the Italian wiki. We will have to allow this time during the week for any and all interested to respond. Rarelibra 16:51, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I removed the links/invitations on both de. and it.wikipedia. It was not correct, but the consequence must be deletion and no more incorrect actions. --PhJ 18:25, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Actually I think it is too late. There seems to be an overabundant advertisement in the German wiki arena rather than the Italian wiki arena. This, by far, is most incorrect. So I do think that we need opinions from all ends. Rarelibra 18:34, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't think there is an overabundant advertisement in the German wiki. There are three German users taking part in this discussion, and all the three of us have been users of English wiki for at least some months. --PhJ 18:52, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
If I were you, I wouldn't count - because exacts here can quickly be proven incorrect, but there are more users appearing due to Martin Se's campaigning. We just need to keep this fair and impartial. Rarelibra 18:55, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
But I do. Ok, maybe it's four, but I don't believe you could prove any new users appearing due to campaining. --PhJ 19:11, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Official name in Italian

Rarelibra, this is too silly to argue about. The official name of the region in Italian is "Regione Autonoma Trentino-Alto Adige", without "Südtirol". The address you refer to is on the bilingual (Italian-German) official page of the region, [2]. Left half Italian, right half German. Obviously, the address below is meant for both Italian and German speakers. The street etc. are in Italian, because the address is in Trento. If you don't believe me, click on the link "sito italiano", or read the regional statute in Italian. Markussep 16:54, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

You are a strange bird, Markussep. You don't want to include the "South Tyrol" name respectively in the region article, yet you fiercely defend the "South Tyrol" name usage for the province. Like trying to have your cake and eat it, too. It will all work itself out in the polls. Rarelibra 17:07, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Information we give should be correct, that's all. Markussep 17:29, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
That's the whole point. The "South Tyrol" name for the province is incorrect, as the article should reflect the trend in the articles. Just strange to see you going in two directions. Rarelibra 18:05, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
It's not two directions if you look at it from a "most common use" point of view. You know my arguments, you've told us yours. Markussep 18:59, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
It is exactly two directions - one to say to use the "official name" as defined by the Italian government (even though there is a nod to the dual-lingual usage), the other for you to vehemently attempt to uphold the usage of "South Tyrol" as the name for the province (which is entirely incorrect). Rarelibra 19:11, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

It may not be strictly pertinent, but just what is the "Names" section supposed to refer to? I corrected a few glaring mistakes, but it seems so, eww. "Tiroler Etschland"... I don't think the German name was officially accepted into Italian constitution until this millennium, and even before, Südtirol was surely the most common name for the Germanic world. Tridentinus 04:05, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

The german name (1946-1972) was given to the region by the treaty of Paris (Degasperi-Gruber)
The section is probably not the best but the only one I came by. We cut also include the meaning in the first section (like it:Trentino Alto Adige/Südtirol) --Martin Se 06:10, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, I didn't know that. Tridentinus 18:31, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Order of Names

Deleting edits on talk page

User PhJ, I would recommend putting back the edits you have erased. It may be offensive in your POV, but you can't blank other's edits like this unless it constitutes a clear personal attack. Taalo 16:48, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Unless the removed content added a lot to the discussion, I'd recommend letting it go. But, in the future, please don't remove talk page comments.
Incidentally, I assume mediation has been attempted in this endless dispute? I'm amazed this is still going on since the one time I stumbled across it. —Wknight94 (talk) 03:34, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Yup, I was going to let it go, but User PhJ has taken it upon himself to go a big hog-wild on the Bolzano talk page now. Apparently saying, "hey ladin dude", is offensive to PhJ.. or otherwise vandalism, personal attack, this and that, I don't know anymore. LOL :} Taalo 16:38, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Wknight94 - mediation was started, but there was never any follow-through. I believe this time around we have some real traction in getting a viable solution with a combined name of "Trentino-Alto Adige/South Tyrol" or "Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol". There are several of us ensuring that things stay respectable and on topic, as we are using all efforts to avoid such things as Emes did with posting a POV call on German wiki. Rarelibra 12:56, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
How I wish Lar could of had the time to help us out. : / Anyway, for the rest of the T-AA/ST, I don't think we even touch them without him. Taalo 17:07, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
What do you mean? Rarelibra 17:08, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Like discussions on city names, rivers, places, etc.. i.e. a truly global set of rules. Taalo 17:16, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Trying to stir the pot?

I've noticed recently a few of the German-speaking editors (who happen to be part of this AA/ST debate) making interesting edits on pages related to the province of Trento. For example, [3], [4], [5], [6], I will assume good faith, but does anyone else get the feeling of a bit trying to stir the pot? Is this some crude attempt in playing tit-for-tat because of these debates? o_O Taalo 17:04, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

There is no pot-stirring. I think we need to address the naming of this region in a case where we following what is most official and accurate at the same time. Keep assuming that good faith and see about discussions that work towards a solution! :) Rarelibra 17:10, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Right on. Taalo 17:14, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

3-way referendum

In the straw poll those against the current title of the page won 6-2, in the survey those proposing Trentino-Alto Adige are winning 9-8 (but pleas note that between those 8, there are 2 users who explicitly said that they dislike any title not comprising both Alto Adige and South Tyrol, so they oppose the status quo too, making those against the current title win 11-6).

Thus there is a clear majority of users against the current title. This is a point of no turning back. From this point we won't need to discuss anymore about Trentino-South Tyrol, 'cos this option has been refused by 11 users out of 17.

Now we need to move the discussion on only 3 options: Trentino-Alto Adige, Trentino-Alto Adige/South Tyrol and Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol. If none of the 3 options reaches the majority, we'll have a second round with the 2 most voted ones. What do you think about it?

Say what option do you prefer of the 3 exposed (the 3 most voted in the straw poll), writing Support. --Checco 17:22, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Wait! There is still the option Trentino-Upper Adige/South Tyrol. I think I'm not violating any rules inserting this fourth option. --PhJ 17:33, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Actually, yes you are. Therefore, I am eliminating it. If you have any question as to why, the name "Upper Adige" is an incorrect translation. Even the region governmental website correctly translates the name as "Trentino-Alto Adige/South Tyrol". Rarelibra 17:38, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
The problem was that Trentino-Upper Adige/South Tyrol received 7 don't support and 1 5th option, so I reasonly eliminated it. --Checco 17:44, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

"Referendum", what is this? I think some are loosing how to differentiate between politics in the real world and Wikipedia. Give it a rest guys and calm down, let others do some talking as well not just our "Italians" Checco and Taalo. Gryffindor 17:50, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

If you don't like the word referendum you can change it, but the substance is that Trentino-South Tyrol is disliked by 11 users out of 17, so we need to find another title between the 3 most voted in the straw poll above. --Checco 17:53, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Please state only Support and not your 2nd and 3rd choices! --Checco 17:47, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

This is to make things clearer. We'll have first a first round and then a second round. Dear Rarelibra and Taalo, please make clear what is your 1st choice (the one you Support) and cancel the other comments. --Checco 17:51, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Let me repeat it: to make things clearer, I think it is better to write only Support under the preferred title, leaving out things like Do not support, Week support, 1st choie, 2nd choice, etc. Indeed, then we will have a second round. --Checco 17:57, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

First round

Trentino-Alto Adige

  1. Support Most commonly used English name. The full name can be discussed in the article text. john k 18:05, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
  2. Support and agree with John, although all three proposals are better than the current title. Olessi 18:33, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
  3. Support. Markussep 19:10, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
  4. Support. because a search with google USA today gives the following results:
    • "Trentino-Alto Adige" 2,290,000 hits
    • "Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol" 80,500 hits
    • "Trentino-Alto Adige/South Tyrol" 757 hits
    (Idea by user Taalo ) noclador 02:10, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
    Oi, don't say this is my idea! :P It is indeed very useful using Google to find out English usage, and I agree English usage is "Trentino-Alto Adige". My idea is to use that, along with a shared compromise (see below). Taalo 03:12, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
    Hi Taalo
    I’m completely against the use of the name combination “Trentino-Alto Adige/South Tyrol”. The Region Trentino-Alto Adige came into being in 1947 and the official name since then is just Trentino-Alto Adige. The name South Tyrol wasn’t even in use until 1919. Until then everything (North- East- South Tyrol and Trentino) were known under the name Tyrol. So historically and actually the name combination “Trentino-Alto Adige/South Tyrol” has and is nowhere used. Therefore I think that from an encyclopaedic viewpoint the inclusion of South Tyrol in the title is wrong. noclador 03:30, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
    Well, Martin Se is going to leave en.wikipedia then. :\ Putting the history aside, if we look at the present, Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol is a completely valid name. It is what is in the constitution of Italy. A valid English translation of this regional name is Trentino-Alto Adige/South Tyrol, no? If we feel we are inventing something here, and it is more rigerous to go with Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol, fine. Lets not just go with Trentino-Alto Adige though... :/ Taalo 04:05, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
    "Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol" is not a valid name at all! Officialy the German names are just tolerated but legally not even allowed. As in South Tyrol proper German names are common, we might use them there, but the Region of Trentino-Alto Adige is a political entity with the legal name "Region Trentino-Alto Adige" and if we start translating local names i suggest we start with Neues York and Edins Burg... Want that? There is no historical (it has never been named Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol or Trentino-Alto Adige/South Tyrol) political (it is Regione Autonoma Trentino-Alto Adige) or whatsoever reason to impose the name South Tyrol on the this article. noclador 06:38, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
    Actually Noclador, Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol is the official name of the region printed in the constitution of the Republic of Italy. It is printed exactly this way. The German names are all as official as they possibly can be. In the province of Bolzano-Bozen, German itself is an official language. The reason for Trentino-Alto Adige/South Tyrol is it is a valid English translation of the official name. Anyway, somehow your understanding is a bit stuck like around 100 years ago, or 200 years ago when the opposite was the case. :} I've said before that the region is quite relaxed and peaceful -- and even that is an understatement! Taalo 18:21, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
  5. Support This is the name of the full region, that have a LARGE Italian majority, because the German minority is just in the alto adige/s.t. area--Giovanni Giove 21:42, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Trentino-Alto Adige/South Tyrol

  1. Support: This is the proper name, correctly translated from the official name into English. Rarelibra 17:37, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
    It should be Trentino-Upper Adige/South Tyrol... why this half translation?--Giovanni Giove 21:46, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
    Giovanni, South Tyrol is English usage for Südtirol. Alto Adige is English usage for Alto Adige. regards, Taalo 17:49, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
  2. Support: Yes, I can put my full backing towards this one. It satisfies my two conditions: 1) English usage (Trentino-Alto Adige) 2) compromise/sharing solution: Trentino-Alto Adige/South Tyrol. I have no qualms with the length of the name or the uses of dashes, slashes, whatever! :} Taalo 17:44, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
  3. Support again.--Húsönd 17:54, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
  4. Support this is the name correctly translated from official name --Francomemoria 18:28, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
  5. Support this proposal 'cos I think that it is more complete and in order to have consensus on a good compromise. I hope that also German users are interested in compromise. Indeed, as said by Olessi, all three proposals are better than the current title. --Checco 18:46, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
  6. Support: Of course. Tridentinus 19:58, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol

  1. Support. PhJ 18:20, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
  2. Support. Ian Spackman 21:01, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
  3. Support, official name. If we don't use the English translation of "South Tyrol" for AA/ST, we should be using BOTH foreign words. —Nightstallion (?) 15:49, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
    Note: it is entirely your POV that the English translation of both Alto Adige and Südtirol is South Tyrol. Taalo 16:53, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
  4. Support. It is used in the constitution, sounds reasonable to me :-) Fantasy 21:05, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
  5. Support. A search with Google USA today gives the following results:
  • "Tirol" 22,400,000 hits
  • "Tyrol" 4,120,000 hits

A search with Google USA today gives the following results:

  • "South Tirol" 1,440,000 hits
  • "South Tyrol" 1,260,000 hits-- Hrödberäht (gespräch) 19:35, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
    • you have some very confusing logic. posted by 71.106.204.137 01:54, March 11, 2007 (UTC)
Wrong vote. We are talking of the Italian region "Trentino Alto Adige", and not of the South Tyrol/A.A. (that is just a part of this region)--Giovanni Giove 21:44, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Second round

It is clear that most voters prefer a solution including both Alto Adige and South Tyrol/Südtirol, but what? Thus we need to start a second round between Trentino-Alto Adige/South Tyrol an Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol.

Please state only Support and a brief explanation. --Checco 22:05, 12 March 2007 (UTC)


I would suggest that those who take part in the poll clearly and honestly state their mother tongue... This would make things much interesting... What do you think about that? --Adriano 19:47, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
I tried to include this info on the South Tyrol page, but Rarelibra recommended not to. I was basing info off user pages though, and your idea is more... voluntary. The South Tyrol page is very interesting indeed. German POV is South Tyrol. Anyway, for the vote below, I prefer the latter, but Wiki-rules seem to prefer the former. Taalo 19:52, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
We are NOT going to try to single out users due to "mother tongue". Let the polls fall where they may. Rarelibra 20:01, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Actually, if it is voluntary, I think it is fine, even just for curiousity. I'm personally more curious to see this on the South Tyrol debate.. LOL Taalo 03:27, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
If the name of this article is a mere language problem, mother tongue is important. It makes less sense that a German or Italian mother tongue vote on a purely English (language) matter.
If instead, the matter is a political one then, of course, everybody is welcome to have a say... But wikipedia is probably not the right place for politics... --Adriano 10:48, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Ye..es. But age, education and interests are also going to affect what ‘feels right’. English language usage of names for people or places has shifted quite dramatically in my lifetime. We translate much less than we used to. People primarily interested in pre-twentieth-century history are going to be used to Tyrol, while people wanting a holiday are more likely to have come across Alto Adige. Personally I am middle-aged (which doubles the value of my vote), like both holidays and history (ditto), am averagely educated (BA from Oxford, but only a third-class one: ditto), and have British English as a mother tongue (ditto). So I can only imagine that any reasonable person tallying the votes cast below will count mine as being worth sixteen of anybody else’s. —Ian Spackman 15:04, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
You made a good point, Ian on how our way of living affects the way we speak. But mother tongue is IMHO quite important, as it gives a common communication platform to all those who share the same language. This shared knowledge makes the difference with non-mother-tongues, even when they (we?) have quite a good grasp of a language - you can certainly realize when a text is written by a non English speaker, by some little "mistakes" on collocations, phrasal verbs or, more simply, by the non standard use of an expression or a verb. Quite often it is just a feeling, which makes you state "you just don't say so".
In this regard I think that mother tongue is important when discussing language problems. Regards --Adriano 18:45, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
And again, I disagree with you Adriano. I speak fluent Spanish - if I edit in Spanish wiki, does that mean my edits will count less? I speak Polish - if I edit in Polish wiki, will they count less as well? Mother tongue is not applicable here at all - it reaks of favoritism and prejudice. Otherwise, as Ian said above, someone like myself (native tongue American English) would cry to weigh much heavier in a vote - and that just isn't correct. As a geographer, I could then rally for 'bonus weight' above the native English tongues due to a more profound knowledge of the geographic world than the 'average' English speakers, correct? Let's just stick to voting. Rarelibra 20:14, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
The mother tongue of a user will not make their vote count less, it is more (as far as I can tell) simply for identifying inherent bias. Either way, I recommend all of you stop quarreling over small issures such as whether to inclu de your mother tongue or not. If no more people weigh in in the next few hours, I think I am going to close this discussion with 9 to 1 in favor of moving the page to Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol. —METS501 (talk) 20:44, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Trentino-Alto Adige/South Tyrol

Support As explained above. --Checco 22:05, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
  1. Support as English. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:46, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol

  1. Support (again) mother tongue: British English; but rather dyslexic and my Mac’s spell-checker is equally accepting of British English, American English, German and Italian.—Ian Spackman 17:47, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
  2. Support IMHO this is the best form to use. -Rarelibra 19:59, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
  3. Support I actually prefer this one too aesthetically, though really either will work for me. At least this should hopefully better satisfy Markussep with the issue of having a term that has some sort of Google hit factor. This name is official and contains the common English usage Trentino-Alto Adige. We would be missing the common English usage for Südtirol though... Taalo 21:35, 13 March 2007 (UTC) mother tongue: American English (with a dab of British English mixed in from time to time ;)
  4. Support I change vote, this is actually better. mother tongue: Venetian --Checco 11:51, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
  5. Support. PhJ 12:29, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
  6. Support I still think that the only logical term is "Trentino-South Tyrol". I am willing to compromise though and therefore support the official name as given in the Italian constitution. The other term is a nice compromise as well, however would border on "original research", sorry... hopefully we can give this issue a rest after we come to an agreement. Gryffindor 15:08, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
  7. Support it is best of Trentino South Tyrol and is the official name, is not English but with some redirects. mother tongue: Italian language for this purpose.--Francomemoria 17:46, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Please note Support votes from User:Fantasy and User:Nightstallion given previously as their second choice. Gryffindor 15:08, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Move proposal

I'm happy to announce that we have finally arrived at consensus on the name of this article (take a look at the 402-kilobyte archive if you wish). This article will be located at Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol. This is not everyone's first choice, but thankfully everyone thought this name was good, or at least satisfactory. I'm going to move-protect this article and ask that no further move requests be created, as this name has been the outcome of an enormous amount of discussion. Thank you very much for reading, and most of all, thank you to the many editors who worked so hard to arrive at this name. —METS501 (talk) 02:01, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Finally... --Adriano 09:29, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
As You You said not first but my II. choice, thanks (in the next days I'll load a picture of the first Italian stamp using this name!--Martin Se 10:25, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Martin, I really look forward to seeing a picture of the stamp! Just a note, I put Trentin-Adesc Aut first because of alphabetical order. But I agree with your edit, Trentin-Sudtirol seems to be more commonly used in Ladin to refer to the region. One question I had for you also when you got a chance. In Ladin do they really use the umlaut ü or not? thanks! Taalo 16:40, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

a copyrighted foto of the new stamp: http://www.stol.it/nachrichten/artikel.asp?ArtID=90286&KatID=da

Wonderful. This seems like the most adequate solution. john k 23:59, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Excuse me, but is this how we are going to do things?

It literally took months to push people into a compromise, and then you read stuff like this?? [7]

Hi, here (unfortunately) I am afraid it looks like the question has been settled. However, I think it will need to be soon posed again towards the contrary move. Now I will lobby a bit for South Tyrol. See you soon, --Clamengh 20:10, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

can you people not get it into your skulls to compromise/share? This isn't a continous battle to grab everything for one side. Surreal :( Taalo 06:36, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

The last edit

Hey guys (and gals, if there are any),

The last edit removed some stuff in a way which on talk pages can be construed as vandalism. Nevertheless I would like to support the edit. We have just achieved what seemed quite impossible, a general—almost a universal—agreement that Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol is not a bad name for the article. Hardly anybody’s first choice (except mine), but OK. Amazing! We just have to congratulate each other and ourselves on being thoughtful, flexible and reasonable. Meantime, I think that earlier in the discussion I moaned that everyone was insistently editing the talk page while letting the article itself languish. I was wrong. It is much better than it was. Let’s be a little circumspect for a while before saying things which are a bit of tease!

I am taking an early vodka, and raise it to say ‘Prost’, and ‘Salute’ to everyone here. Do please correct my German and my Italian, and add in the Ladin! —Ian Spackman 10:45, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

If someone can add the Ladin I shall be particularly happy because it will require me to raise my glass again. Do not hesitate! —Ian Spackman 10:53, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to re-add the Ladin bit that Gryffindor keeps deleting. I'll dig up and cite the reference Markussep produced. Taalo 22:17, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
It wasn't easy, but compromise is what it's all about on Wikipedia, isn't it? I'm raising my glass. Gryffindor 20:37, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, it sure wasn't easy. But we still have some ways to go. I'm quite curious regarding your attempt to close the offer of mediation from Lar. We only got as far as one name so far. That mediation offer was specifically written to help with the overall regional names. Taalo 21:41, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
I think we can close out the mediation and go with the consensus - we have plenty of participation at this point. I think the neutral solution for South Tyrol will be to split the article... even with a reduced article on the province proper will help. Rarelibra 17:46, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Which is fine with me, because this would give us a chance to have AA/ST and Trentino have there own pages and still allow for P of TN/BZ pages for the province proper. I do have one question though. Will the page be moved from South Tyrol to Alto Adige/South Tyrol or Alto Adige/Südtirol? If we do a split, could we have the Province of BZ listed as it is in Brittanica as Province of Bolzano-Bozen? Appending AA/ST just doesn't look right to me, considering basically every Province in Italy is simply and objectively named after the largest city. Taalo 18:06, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

more questions

Gryffindor, why do you insist on blanking out the Trentin-Adesc Aut? Markessup did a very good job to even find sources for this. Just as well, it was found that the most common English usage is Trentino-Alto Adige. If you insist on adding back your Trentino-South Tyrol -- there should be clarification based on facts. Taalo 21:44, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Cognate categories

I hope that you are all as bored with voting as I am. However there is a vote taking place here as to the question whether the categories relating to Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol should have their names changed to match the newly agreed name for the region. Do express your views! —Ian Spackman 17:35, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Ian, you need to add some witty new version we can move that categories to again.  :-) The region of chaos? boh. Taalo 22:48, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
How about Austro-Italian territory of Taalo/Gryffindor? At first sight it’s a dull suggestion because it’s so obviously an impressive name that no-one could possibly vote against it. Current google-hits zero, but tomorrow’s google-hits will be counted in googols. However it does leave scope for argufying. Should it rather be Italo-Austrian region of Gryffindor/Taalo? I think we could debate that between now and September and fill up the pre-Christmas months by bickering over slashes and hyphens. —Ian Spackman 23:16, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
P.S. No-one has come up with the Ladin for ‘cheers!’ Are they all tee-total? —Ian Spackman 23:28, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Yikes, I'm sorry I asked. :P I'll agree, only if Austrian/German goes first. ^_- Taalo 17:24, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


'cheers' in Rumantsch (a language similar to Ladin) is 'viva!' [8] But, it seems that it's too early for a toast... :-( --Adriano 09:36, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Then ‘Viva!’, at what is a very appropriate time in Buckinghamshire, where we do UTC. —Ian Spackman 12:49, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Name change

Is it possible that every month we have a discussion about the name of this region? Unfortunately I read about the change only today but I think South Tyrol is universally accepted in English. Well, if the bilingual name Alto Adige/Südtirol with the slash is admitted here i will ask for changing again the local names policy for South Tyrol's places re-introducing Bolzano/Bozen instead of Bolzano. User:Skafa/Sign 20:48, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I wrote this before reading the article about Bolzano. That's ok, sorry. But please change also Meran-Merano and other places! User:Skafa/Sign

Please read Talk:Communes of South Tyrol and the survey on it. There are good arguments against bilingual names for towns, I won't repeat them here. See for instance Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)#Multiple local names. Markussep 21:57, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Latin name

We discussed this some on the Trento talk page. I added German at Trento because of a good argument made by Tridentinus, and also put back the Latin word Tridentum. How does it possibly hurt this article to be comprehensive and also include the Latin name Tridentinum et Tirolum Meridionale?? Note that besides on Trento, I made a similar format on Merano-Meran, Brennero-Brenner. I find it interesting, I imagine a few others do as well. After all, it is just a few characters of text... Taalo 01:52, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Discuss here before blanking valid edits. Taalo 02:32, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Historic official names are commonplace in Wikipedia at the start of an article. See Lviv, Kaliningrad, Nice. Not to mention that Trento was part of the Holy Roman Empire, and at one point had a sizeable German population (30% at least); Goethe coming to Italy, and arriving in the German district, still heard enough German to write he didn't really feel he was in Italy yet. For all these reasons I feel that the German name should be in. Tridentinus 16:38, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

  • and an excellent argument, and why I have added both Trient and Tridentum to Trento. Are only a couple of editor's contributions valid now? Taalo 02:36, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
No, Taalo. It's ok to add Tridentum to Trento, Bauzanum to Bolzano and Londinium to London, as well as Hispania to Spain, which used to be a Roman province. Tridentinum et Tirolum Meridionale was never a Latin name or Roman province, so - please excuse my following words - it's nonsense. Therefore I'll blank it (but only once). If there is anyone who supports your opinion, we can discuss it further. PhJ 10:13, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Tridentum is a historic name (the city was foundet in roman period)
The region was created 1948 the latin name was never officialy used (ACK PhJ)--Martin Se 11:52, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Not only are PhJ and Emes correct, but Taalo - you violated 3RR. Once an edit is disputed, you cannot continue to push the edit through, instead, you discuss on the talk page (and, mind you, it is not a "blanking of the page" as you claim it to be - it is a revert of the edit). Latin has no bearing on this article - if that is the case, we would have to go back through all the articles with history to the Roman Empire and insert latin names - and that just isn't relevant. The relevance is for the articles already mentioned. So please - stop. Rarelibra 12:55, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

User:Volapuk2

User:Volapuk2 is repeatedly making huge changes which are completely vandalistic. I hope that an administrator can intervene to stop him. The only thing I can do is to rollback his edits. --Checco (talk) 23:23, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Can someone block him? --Checco (talk) 23:30, 29 March 2008 (UTC).

User:Volapuk2 is just changing the false historical facts reported by previous editors and is reporting the history to the true facts quoting the true name of South Tirol.

You are simply vandalizing the article. This article is about a region of Italy and all the information you are inserting is simply false. Please stop vandalizing this page. --Checco (talk) 23:39, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Dear Checco, ist is true historical fact, that South Tirol belongs to Austria and that Italy is just administrating the Land. I am not vadalizing anything! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Volapuk2 (talk • contribs) 23:43, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

The article is about a region of Italy and what you call South Tyrol is only a part of it. There is no doubt about the fact that this region is part of Italy and you are simply vandalizing the page. History is different from the current situation and the current situation is that this region is part of Italy. You can dream that one day the Province of Bolzano will be attached to Austria, but you can't write that it is Austria now. --Checco (talk) 23:49, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Thisd pae wil need to be longer. Jberkeley (talk) 05:00, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Checco, you are right in this matter. But with i.e. Franco Frattini's latest statements, we will experience more and more radicalism, even here all over Widipedia. It's just policital. Sad but true. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.28.24.173 (talk) 21:29, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

What statements? What is sad but true? Probably I missed th point... --Checco (talk) 22:02, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

South Tyrolean parties

There is a lot of work about South Tyrolean parties in en.Wiki... who wants to give a hand?

It would be very useful to translate into en.Wiki articles:

Morever, there are other parties without an article both in de.Wiki and en.Wiki (Partei der Unabhängigen, Freiheitliche Partei Südtirols, Soziale Fortschrittspartei Südtirols, Wahlverband des Heimatbundes and Tiroler Heimatpartei), while Social Democratic Party of South Tyrol and Democratic Party of South Tyrol need expansion. Can anyone write at least a line or two on these parties: having an article with the name of the party translated would be incredibly useful.

Help, help! --Checco (talk) 20:28, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Possible move

Considering WP:ENG and WP:NCGN, I propose that this page be moved to the English title of Trentino-Alto Adige/South Tyrol. ChrisDHDR 19:20, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Trentino-Alto Adige: 3,760,000 hits
Trentino-South Tyrol: 30,400
Trentino-Südtirol: 12,200
Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol: 11,700
Trentino-Alto Adige/South Tyrol: 556.
"Trentino-Alto Adige/South Tyrol" doesn't seem the most common name in English. Of course, given these results I would support a move to "Trentino-Alto Adige" anyway.--Supparluca 20:41, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I strongly disagree because it would be very strange and unusual to have Alto Adige in Italian and Südtirol in English (South Tyrol). Better to leave the title as it is now. --Checco (talk) 22:37, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, in English we also commonly use the loaned word Alto Adige (just as we use Los Angeles and San Francisco -- loaned to us from Spanish). For Südtirol we use the more direct translation of South Tyrol. So, he is technically correct that it would be Alto Adige/South Tyrol in English. But I also agree that it is probably best to just leave it as Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol, since it is official usage in the Italian constitution. I believe at the time of consensus many Austrian/German-based editors did not want to use Alto Adige/South Tyrol, because they (strangely enough) didn't want to imply that Alto Adige was also an English word. LOL. To be utmost correct, common English usage simply uses Trentino-Alto Adige (as Supparluca points out), but we know the flamewar and accusations this causes on our dear Wikipedia. :) Icsunonove (talk) 03:14, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Actually, you guys should play this German game of just erasing everything they don't like. In English we use Trentino-Alto Adige, Province of Bolzano and either Alto Adige or South Tyrol (though I see the use of the former much more often in the United States). I'd ask, why did we ever make compromises with such people over names that are not even used in English. We don't use Bozen either. Icsunonove (talk) 10:36, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Official English name

I think that the current title of the article is a sensible compromise and that it is useful for readers to have both "Alto Adige" and "Südtirol" in the title. However I was very interested by the fact that the English version of the Special Statute of the Region, available in the website of the Province of Bolzano (see http://www.provinz.bz.it/downloads/autonomy_statute_eng.pdf), mentions "Südtirol" only once and never mentions "South Tyrol", but speaks always of "Trentino-Alto Adige". Really interesting. --Checco (talk) 09:46, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

The Special Statute of the Region, available in the website of the parliament of the Province of Bolzano-Bozen calls the region correctly Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol. Interestingly, though, it calls the Trentino “Trentino” and not “Province of Trento” as now the WP article has.
The official homepage of South Tyrol calls South Tyrol in English “South Tyrol”. It also calls South Tyrol, next to Alto Adige, Sudtirolo. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 15:15, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
Two official websites, two different translations. Strange. However, as I said there is no need to change the current title of the article, which is fine and possibily the most neutral. Regarding Trentino, what you said is not correct: the statute speaks of "Province of Trento" and not "Trentino". Provinces in Italy are named with the "Province of XXXXX" format, differently from regions and that is why we decided to name this article "Province of Trento" and the other one "Province of Bolzano-Bozen". --Checco (talk) 15:21, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
This may well be correct usage in Italy, but the WP guidelines are quite clear that the most common name in English should be given preference and that is certainly not the administrative term "Province of Trento", which means nothing to most English speakers, but "Trentino". Gun Powder Ma (talk) 15:46, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
Yes, but that was chosen for uniformity with all other provinces. We already discussed about this before and that was what was decided. Moreover we should change many titles of provinces (the Province of Sondrio will be "Valtellina", the Province of Treviso the "Marca", the Province of Lecce the "Salento", ecc.) and there will be a lot of controversies on naming. Better to leave things as they are. --Checco (talk) 15:53, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
Yup, and obviously having a redirect from Trentino to the Province of Trento, and Trentino bolded in the body of the article takes care of any unlikely confusion. Give some credit to our readers. It is the same situation as was done with Province of Bolzano/Bozen, considering in English we commonly use both Alto Adige and South Tyrol. Regularly BBC will interchange terms. Regularly, however, in maps, simply Trento or Bolzano will be shown. Icsunonove (talk) 06:42, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
That's true. It is what I was able to see by examining geographical atlases in the Library of Congress of Washington, DC: almost all of them put simply "Trento" and "Bolzano" (not "Bozen", actually, as "Bolzano" is used in most cases in English). --Checco (talk) 07:14, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
Yes, and there is no conspiracy, believe it or not. :] I remember you getting slammed one time Checco for merely stating your American experience! :) Basically most sources will use the national language of the country (Standard Italian, i.e. Tuscan, in this case). It may be difficult for some to take that their local languages not be primary in each respective region, but come on already. We already go a long way within Wikipedia to include names upon names. Icsunonove (talk) 08:29, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
There is no official English name as you claim in the headline. --Mai-Sachme (talk) 14:51, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
That's why I won't see any need to put "Trentino-Alto Adige" or "Trentino-South Tyrol" in the headline of the article. Moreover we would need third party publications, as geographical atlases in Enghlish could be. For now, anyway, let's leave things as they are with double names. --Checco (talk) 09:10, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
I agree with you about the headline. I have moved it out of it and put it right underneath, I hope that should make things less complicated. Gryffindor (talk) 12:39, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Tourism

I was wondering how much of South Tyrol's tourism is from the German-speaking countries. I'm surprised that this article does not mention that. I remember seeing advertisements for Südtirol in Germany that said "Warmes Wasser und flie —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.61.102.223 (talk) 02:12, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

You didn't finish your question... but anyway here's part of the answer: in 2008 46,5% of the tourists were from Germany, 2,6% Austrians, 3,6 Swizerland, and 3,6 from BeNeLux (which also mostly speak german); only 0,6% from USA and 0,6% from France, 5,5% other countries and 36,6% Italians. Thus in total about 56% were German-speaking. (source: ASTAT)--Sajoch (talk) 17:20, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Demographics

Can someone explain the Demographics for me?
The text says that 35% of the region speak German, yet the map shows a majority in 103 out of 116 municipalities; Trento is said to be majority Italian except for 5 municipalities (and at least one Ladin) while the map shows far less than that. Moreover, Bolzano (city) is said to be 73% Italian, though the map doesn’t seem to show this up at all.
Which is right? Moonraker12 (talk) 11:19, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

OK, I can see the problem now; the map only shows Bolzano/Bolzen, not the entire region. Which now makes me think it’s misleading as it stands; does anyone have a language map of the whole region? Or one for Trento? That might make it look less weighted. ( I was about to say biased, but it’s too early for that.) Moonraker12 (talk) 11:28, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
Hi Moonraker12, I did the map for the province of Bolzano - it was done to show how the Italian/German distribution has changed over the last century History_of_South_Tyrol#Linguistic_and_demographic_history - as for Trento: I do not even know if in Trentino they go around and ask everyone about their language - in South Tyrol they do it every 10 years. So there is plenty of linguistic data and on that a map can be drawn. As I said - I do not know if such data even exists for Trento... --noclador (talk) 22:26, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
Thank you for replying, and for the explanation; but I think the objection still stands
If the map is specific to Bolzano province, then it should be there (as, I notice, it is). And if it is to illustrate a change in distribution, it would need another map for comparison and an explanation in the text, (again aready done at the page you indicated). But as this page is on the region as a whole, what would be appropriate here is a map of the whole region; anything else is just misleading. Moonraker12 (talk) 14:22, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
there is a little misunderstanding here: i do not care if the map is here or not - i just wanted to give an explanation for the reason it is only about the province of Bolzano; if the map stays on this page is irrelevant to me, as i specifically did it for the Province of Bolzano-Bozen article; and any other use is not really of my concern. --noclador (talk) 14:30, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
(Looks like this has been done already; You can't turn your back around here, can you? Moonraker12 (talk) 10:19, 2 June 2009 (UTC))

I propose that all official place names always be labeled in Italian and German in that order in regards to the Province of Bolzano/Bozen. Ladin could be added in the context of the valleys where is still spoken. German speakers do form the majority population in the north after all. I think the situation in the Spanish Basque area is a good example to follow. This should keep things neutral. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.82.147.122 (talk) 12:13, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Move?

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page not moved. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 21:36, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol → Trentino – Alto Adige/Südtirol —

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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