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I noticed a few things while perusing the article. Maybe someone can address these without any research.

1. Under Organizations, the last sentence of the section refers to the previously questioned statement from the Deepak Chopra article about the Indian TM organization being centered around Maharishi's nephews. This was removed from another section of this article because it was believed to be inaccurate. Perhaps it should be removed from this section as well.

2. Under 1970 American foundation for the SCI, the last sentence says, One author described "it" as.... As I read this, "it" might refer to AFSCI or TM courses. If someone knows which "it" is, I can make the clarifying edit.

3. Under 1972 World Plan Executive Council, second paragraph, second sentence, the language at the end in quotes seems to be an incomplete idea and an incomplete quote.

4. Under 1993 MVED, fourth paragraph, regarding the first four sentences, this seems to be a different topic and there is no mention that MVED operated these facilities and activities. It looks like this should be a separate section or there should be some mention of MVED's connection to these activities.

5. Under 1993 MVED, fourth paragraph, regarding the first sentence, did the Raj offer "warm sesame oil", like a supermarket? Or was this some type of treatment using warm sesame oil that should be clarified?

6. Under 2001 GCWP, second paragraph, the second last sentence says GCWP would pay "1 percent of its money annually." Should this be 1 percent of its annual income (as opposed to 1 percent of the country's assets)?

Thanks to anyone who has info on these.Coaster92 (talk) 03:57, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Responses:

1. Per this discussion [4] in a thread above, it appears that you and I both feel the Chopra quote is out of context and misleading. I was waiting for input from other editors but it can be removed from the article as far as I'm concerned as it appears to misrepresent the source and no one else is commenting otherwise.

2. "It" refers to AFSCI

3. My fault, I fixed the WPEC sentence. Good catch.

4. Maybe it should be moved to the Health Centers section? Should the health center section be moved to Maharishi Ayurveda article? It seems a bit out of place here. Any thoughts on this?

5. I can't access that source But found this: "The Raj, located in Maharishi Vedic City, exemplifies this kinder, gentler new entrepreneuarial approach to MAV oferings—oil treatments, massages…………"---Modern and Global Ayurveda: Pluralism and Paradigms, edited by Dagmar Wujastyk, Frederick M. Smith page 321

6. Suriname: I found three sources:

"Yogi's disciples want to create new utopia", The Independent (London, England) (June 8, 2001)Jan McGirk Latin America Correspondent

DISCIPLES OF Maharishi Mahesh Yogi... They have offered the government of Suriname $1.3bn (pounds 935m) over three years to lease 3,500 acres for a rural utopia 25 miles north-east of the capital, Paramaribo. The proposed "Global Country of World Peace" would mint its own currency, maintain a central bank and its own legal jurisdiction. ........Suriname's President, Ronald Venetiaan, has ignored three requests since November to kickstart negotiations for this "country within a country". Winston Wirht, vice- president of the Maharishi Council for Economic Development of Suriname, promised to create 10,000 new jobs in organic farming and Suriname's Ministry of Agriculture seems willing to begin talks, but the President's approval is essential. He said: "It is unimaginable what Suriname will gain. It's a shame Venetiaan does not seem willing to even talk to us." The impoverished former Dutch colony would be rewarded with 1 per cent of the new country's money annually for 200 years, Mr Wirht said.

(June 5, 2001) "Mystic's followers wants own country", CNN News, Paramaribo, Suriname -- Followers of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi want to establish a 3,500-hectare (8,645-acre) sovereign state on rural land in the South American country of Suriname. The government of Suriname, a former Dutch colony, has so far not accepted the Maharishi International University of Management's offer to invest $1.3 billion over three years and provide 10,000 jobs. Followers of the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi...... want to lease the land in the district of Commewijne for at least 200 years to set up their agricultural society. The land, about 40 kilometers (25 miles) northeast of the capital, Paramaribo, had previously been used for farming by a now-bankrupt government agricultural foundation. The group wants to set up what it calls a "Global Country of World Peace," with its own currency, central bank and jurisdiction, said Winston Wirht, vice president of the university's Maharishi Council for Economic Development of Suriname. The Ministry of Agriculture in a recent letter to the council has offered to start negotiations. However, President Ronald Venetiaan, who would have to approve such a deal, has not responded to the Maharishi council's three requests since November. Officials in Venetiaan's office could not immediately be reached for comment. "This is something to help the Surinamese people out of poverty," Wirht said. "It is a shame that Venetiaan does not seem willing to even talk to us." The sovereign state's main industry would be organic farming and the export of produce, Wirht said. The Maharishi followers would reward Suriname each year by giving the government 1 percent of the money the sovereign state's central bank puts into circulation, Wirht said.

"The TM trip: Yogi bears Hindu-based faith to America" Church & State (June 1, 2009)|Boston, Rob----Other TM projects have been less successful. In 2001, devotees offered to pay more than $1 billion for 3,500 acres in the South American country of Suriname to create their own sovereign "Global Country of World Peace." The president of the nation ignored the request.

The current WP article says the GCWP "made overtures" to Suriname President..... but this source(s) say MIUM made an "offer". So I think the article text needs to be cleaned up to more accurately reflect the source and to include only that material relevant to GCWP but I'll leave it to you to decide how to handle it. Thanks...

-- — Keithbob • Talk • 17:34, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Coaster92, the GCWP section was unduly weighted towards a few minor items and so I have replaced it with the lead from the article Global Country of World Peace which gives a more balanced overview and summary of the topic. I have parked the content I've removed over a the [GCWP talk page and posted the Suriname sources there too. So if you'd like to follow up on the specifics of the Suriname evet\nt, everything is there. Sorry for this untimely change. I had forgotten that this was a topic that is possibly still under discussion.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 20:57, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Responses to responses:

1. I went ahead and removed the sentence per discussions.

2. I changed "it" to ""AFSCI" for clarity.

3. Thanks for fixing that.

4. Are you able to clarify/confirm that MVED has a connection to the Raj and the Lancaster health center, whether as a founder or operator of these? That is the question I have because if MVED does not have a connection, these few sentences do not belong under this heading. It doesn't seem this discussion belongs under the Maharishi Ayurveda section but it might work under the health centers section. Knowing MVED's connection to the two centers would help answer the question.

5. The reference doesn't clear up the question. Should I just take out the reference to warm sesame oil?

6. Regarding the GCWP question, it seems more accurate to say "1 percent of the money he sovereign state's central bank puts into circulation", quoting from the source you mention. I could make the change in the GCWP article if you think it would be appropriate.Coaster92 (talk) 07:13, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

More responses to responses:

4. I moved the text in question from the MVED section to the Health centers section.

5. I took out the reference to warm sesame oil.

6. I made the change to the GCWP article.Coaster92 (talk) 05:57, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

I'll at the GCWP article and comment there but I think these changes you've made here are good. Thanks for the help and collaboration.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 18:08, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Bold edits to re-organize

I have made some bold edits to re-organize the sections of the article into what I feel are more coherent and reader friendly, groupings. If editors are unhappy with these changes I will self-revert to the prior version. Or.... we can discuss and make modifications as needed, based on the consensus here. Please let me know what you think and thanking you in advance for your patience.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 00:17, 18 November 2012 (UTC) PS I would still like to move the Health centers section to the Maharishi Ayurveda article [see above thread] and I left the Promotions section where it was because it appears to me to be a coatrack conglomeration of things that should be moved to other articles such as the Maharishi 's BLP or the Beatles in India article or to the Marketing section of the TM technique article etc. Anyway just some thoughts. Peace out!-- — Keithbob • Talk • 00:24, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

Move Health Centers section

I'd like to move the Health Centers section to the article on Maharishi Ayurveda. Any comments? objections?-- — Keithbob • Talk • 22:32, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

I agree, that makes sense, but I would leave a general mention about the health centers in the Maharishi Ayurveda paragraph.Coaster92 (talk) 22:23, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

That sounds like a good move. And yes, leave a brief summary in this article. TimidGuy (talk) 12:09, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Combine duplicate info in TM movement and Maharishi Sthapatya Veda articles

I've moved the text on Health Centers to the Maharishi Ayurveda article per consensus above. Now I would like to suggest moving the subsections called Settlements and Monastic Communities that are subsections to the Maharishi Sthapatay Veda section in this article........ to the Maharishi Sthapatya Veda article since this info is already covered there in depth. [5] I don't see the purpose of having in depth duplicate content in several articles. I feel its better to have summaries here and there as needed with a link to the main article. How do editors feel about this proposal to move content from here to the article on MSV?-- — Keithbob • Talk • 17:29, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

It looks to me that the discussion of monastic communities in this article focuses on the activities of the people, rather than the buildings. Offhand, it does not seem the section is the best fit with the MSV article. Unless I am missing something.Coaster92 (talk) 23:10, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Good point. TimidGuy (talk) 12:17, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

OK, maybe I approached this wrong.... if its about people..... does it belong in an article about architecture? I don't see the purpose of it being in both articles. Maybe the content from the MSV article on monastic communities should be moved here? Thoughts? Comments? -- — Keithbob • Talk • 19:03, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

These don't look duplicative to me. Each discussion seems to be in the appropriate article.Coaster92 (talk) 07:35, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

The Lead Again

Keithbob has mentioned several times the need to expand the lead to cover more topics from the article. Here is some proposed text summarizing Publishing, TV and radio and Organizations. I think that about covers the topics. I look forward to input from other editors:

TM organizations have received diverse media support that has included a publishing company, which produces books, literature, and DVD’s (MIU/MUM Press); a television station (KSCI); a radio station (KHOE); and satellite television (Maharishi Channel).

The TM program and related programs have been offered through several organizations, which are primarily nonprofit and educational. These include the now dissolved Spiritual Regeneration Movement; the International Meditation Society; the Students International Meditation Society (which provided TM courses to students); the International Foundation for the Science of Creative Intelligence (offering TM courses to industry, business, and government); World Plan Executive Council; Maharishi Foundation; and Maharishi Vedic Education Development Corporation. The Global Country of World Peace was founded by the Maharishi as a "a country without borders for peace loving people everywhere." The David Lynch Foundation funds TM courses for at-risk youth.

Maharishi Heaven on Earth Development Corporation is a for profit real estate development company that designs and builds based on vedic architecture. Maharishi Housing Development Finance Corporation (established in India) offers seven and fifteen year loans. The Natural Law Party was a transnational party based on the teachings of the Maharishi. The Party platform supported Transcendental Meditation as a scientifically proven solution to social problems.

Coaster92 (talk) 22:44, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, Coaster, for having a go at this. Note that a lead is supposed to be kept to four paragraphs, so any changes shouldn't lengthen it. Seems like we'd need to somehow condense what's there in order to add a summary of these additional sections of the article. And I think we'd need to condense your proposed text. TimidGuy (talk) 12:09, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

I agree that there are sections of the current lead which need to be rewritten so that the accurately summarize the body without giving any undue weight..... but..... the current lead is three paragraphs and this new text Coaster is proposing could be combined into a fourth paragraph IMO.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 18:47, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

If someone wants to suggest a re-write of what I presented, that sounds good.Coaster92 (talk) 07:41, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Here is a condensed version of the paragraphs I posted above. The current last sentence of the second lead paragraph could be deleted (Active organizations include the International Meditation Society, Maharishi Foundation, Maharishi Vedic Education Development Corporation, Global Country of World Peace and the David Lynch Foundation) and this paragraph could be inserted in its place. Look forward to editor input. Thanks.

TM organizations have received diverse media support that has included a publishing company; a television station; a radio station; and satellite television. The TM program and related programs have been offered through several organizations, which are primarily nonprofit and educational. These include the Global Country of World Peace, "a country without borders for peace loving people everywhere;" the David Lynch Foundation, which funds TM courses for at-risk youth; a for profit real estate development company that builds based on vedic architecture; a loan/finance company (established in India); and a political party that supported Transcendental Meditation as a scientifically proven solution to social problems.

Coaster92 (talk) 04:57, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Hi Coaster thanks for this effort. I think there may be a few too many details in your version. At the same time I think its good to have an overview of the non-profit and for-profit companies. So I would suggest this version:

The TM movements past media endeavors have included a publishing company (MUM Press), a television station (KSCI), a radio station (KHOE) and a satellite television channel (Maharishi Channel). During its 50 year history its products and services have been offered through several non-profit organizations including the Spiritual Regeneration Movement (SRM), International Meditation Society (IMS), Students International Meditation Society (SIMS), World Plan Executive Council (WPC), Maharishi Vedic Education Development Corporation (MVEDC), the Global Country of World Peace (GCWP) and The David Lynch Foundation (DLF). For-profit organizations have included real estate developer Maharishi Heaven on Earth Development Corporation (MHEDC), Maharishi Housing Development Finance Corporation (MHDFC-India) and Maharishi Ayurveda Products International (MAPI-USA)

Thoughts? Comments?-- — Keithbob • Talk • 15:51, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

I re-wrote my first version to take out some of the detail (per TimidGuy's comments) that you have added back in. But I don't object. I have read the guidelines regarding the Lead but I am not claiming to be an expert. However, IMO the reader receives a small flavor of the overall topic when the lead gives a very brief mention about one or more organizations' activities rather than just listing a string of organizations. That is currently how the programs are discussed in the lead, ie, with a very brief description. One other thing, some of the media outlets might still be current (not "past") media endeavors.Coaster92 (talk) 06:44, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Current version under consideration (Coaster92 v.2):

TM organizations have received diverse media support that has included a publishing company, which produces books, literature, and DVD’s (MIU/MUM Press); a television station (KSCI); a radio station (KHOE); and satellite television (Maharishi Channel).

The TM program and related programs have been offered through several organizations, which are primarily nonprofit and educational. These include the now dissolved Spiritual Regeneration Movement; the International Meditation Society; the Students International Meditation Society (which provided TM courses to students); the International Foundation for the Science of Creative Intelligence (offering TM courses to industry, business, and government); World Plan Executive Council; Maharishi Foundation; and Maharishi Vedic Education Development Corporation. The Global Country of World Peace was founded by the Maharishi as a "a country without borders for peace loving people everywhere." The David Lynch Foundation funds TM courses for at-risk youth.

Maharishi Heaven on Earth Development Corporation is a for profit real estate development company that designs and builds based on vedic architecture. Maharishi Housing Development Finance Corporation (established in India) offers seven and fifteen year loans. The Natural Law Party was a transnational party based on the teachings of the Maharishi. The Party platform supported Transcendental Meditation as a scientifically proven solution to social problems

You've raised some good points. I still have a few suggested tweaks:

"received diverse media support" its sounds like its outside media. Can we rephrase to clarify that these are TM media organizations?

SIMS-- its obvious its for students, its in the name. Can we remove the explanation in parentheses?

MHEDC also purchased several hotels and other facilities. Can we just say its a real estate development company and avoid these details about architecture?

DLF also funds programs for public schools, prisoners, veterans etc. Can we just say "non-profit, foundation for TM course scholarships"?

MHDFC is self explanatory, saying 7 and 15 yr loans is way too specific for the lead IMHO

NLP: "scientifically proven solution to social problems" yea that was their campaign slogan but its not backed by research or mainstream science and so we can't state that in Wikipedia's voice.. Also, don't forget all of these names are going to be wikilinked to their respective articles.

Well that's my two cents, lets see what others think. Best,-- — Keithbob • Talk • 19:03, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks much, Coaster for sticking with this and condensing. I like your rewrite, and I think Keithbob's suggestions are good. I'd vote for putting this in. TimidGuy (talk) 11:16, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your input KeithBob and TimidGuy. I'm agreeable to a condensed version. My suggestion (reflected in the second version) was to mention only some of the organizations along with a very few descriptive words. Not sure if others think this is sufficient for a lead. I had moved away from the longer version that KeithBob most recently commented on although I agree with KB's comments regarding that version. My concern with KB's version is that it listed a string of company names with no information at all about any of them, which imo is not an effective summary, although perhaps it is correct. My suggestion is to list select organizations with a few words about each. For brevity, in my first revised version, I did not include the organization names for the last three. Not sure what others think about that. KB's statement (During its 50 year history its products and services have been offered through several non-profit organizations...) is not completely accurate in reference to some of the organizations that follow, which is why I suggest "which are primarily nonprofit and educational." Here's another suggested version that combines my comments and KB's comments and re-write.

The TM movement's media endeavors have included a publishing company (MUM Press), a television station (KSCI), a radio station (KHOE), and a satellite television channel (Maharishi Channel). During its 50-year history its products and services have been offered through several organizations, which are primarily nonprofit and educational. These include the Global Country of World Peace, "a country without borders for peace loving people everywhere"; the David Lynch Foundation, a nonprofit foundation for TM course scholarships; Maharishi Heaven on Earth Development Corporation, a for-profit real estate development company; Maharishi Housing Development Finance Corporation; and the Natural Law Party, a political party that supported Transcendental Meditation.

Coaster92 (talk) 06:37, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Timid Guy? -- — Keithbob • Talk • 20:33, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Excellent. Thanks much, Coaster. I took the liberty of making several small copyedits. TimidGuy (talk) 15:22, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for catching those edits TG. I went ahead and posted the final version.Coaster92 (talk) 05:15, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

First paragraph of lead

The Transcendental Meditation movement (also referred to as Transcendental Meditation or TM, Maharishi's worldwide movement, and the Transcendental Meditation organization) is a term or phrase that refers to the programs and organizations connected to the Transcendental Meditation technique, which was developed and or introduced by the founder, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Transcendental Meditation was first taught in the 1950s in India and has continued beyond the Maharishi's death in 2008. The organization was estimated to have 900,000 participants worldwide in 1977,[1] a million by the 1980s,[2][3][4] and 5 million in more recent years.[5][6][7][8][9][10][11] In 1976 the movement published a seven-hundred-page compilation of Transcendental Meditation research, generated by 51 institutions from 13 countries.

Above is the first paragraph of the lead currently in the article. I have the following comments.

Do we have sources that say that the TM movement is also referred to as M's worldwide movement and the Trans Med org?

I don't think the publication of the 700 page book on research is of such historical significance that it belongs in the lead and I feel its should be removed.

Comments? -- — Keithbob • Talk • 15:51, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

I agree that the 700-page publication should be omitted. TimidGuy (talk) 11:49, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Ok I've moved the sentence below from the lead of this article and [placed it in the History of TM article]http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=History_of_Transcendental_Meditation&diff=prev&oldid=527729787 . If anyone feels strongly that it also belongs in this article, they can re-add it but I don't think it belongs in the lead of any article.

In 1976 the movement published a seven-hundred-page compilation of Transcendental Meditation research, generated by 51 institutions from 13 countries. ref name=Goldberg>Goldberg, Philip (2010). American Veda—How Indian Spirituality Changed the West. New York: Crown Publishing/Random House. pp. 163–165. ISBN 978-0-385-52134-5.</ref

I've also removed the phrases, Maharishi's worldwide movement, and the Transcendental Meditation organization, from the lead sentence as I don't feel there is a preponderance of sources that support the claim that these are synonyms for TM and TM movement and as was claimed in the first sentence of the article. Comments?-- — Keithbob • Talk • 18:03, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Even if we found a source, it doesn't seem like those synonyms need to be stipulated, since most readers would, I believe, assume they're the same thing. TimidGuy (talk) 12:22, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Beatles/India material

I think the material asserting that the Beatles left India due to tensions over film deals should be attributed. All of that originally comes from Cooke de Herrerar's memoirs Beyond Gurus, and in her book she makes clear that it's speculative. (See page 266 where she's wondering why the Beatles left and her son Rik notes the coincidence between their leaving and Maharishi's signing a contract with Four Star. It's completely speculative. She explicitly says that when she asked the Beatles why they were leaving, Lennon simply tells her to ask Maharishi. And this is right after he confronted Maharishi with the Mardas allegation. Then on page 298 she explains that it wasn't until many months later that she learned of the Mardas allegation, when a guest on the Tonight show gave the "real reason" for the Beatles' departure.) The Beatles themselves don't say anything about the film deal in the extensive interviews in the Beatles Anthology and give varied and quite different reasons for leaving. I sometimes think that where we have competing accounts we should go by what the Beatles themselves have said. TimidGuy (talk) 11:48, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

I'd agree, that this content, if added at all should be inline attributed. To consider: some of the Beatles are still alive so there are BLP issues surrounding them. We have to be careful to not attribute actions/ comments to them that are questionable.(olive (talk) 17:47, 21 January 2013 (UTC))

Thanks for looking over my recent additions and changes to the article. I think its OK to attribute but be sure to consider the other sources listed besides Cooke de Herrera. On a side note, I do not consider Cooke de Hererra's book, in general, to be a reliable source as it is a memoir that incorporates hearsay. However, I think it's OK as a supportive source, in addition to other sources, as appears to be the case here. Also I may have summarize incorrectly in light of this text and its sources (below) from the Filming section of Beatles in India:

• Although there was talk of making a film about the Maharishi in co-operation with Apple Films,--sfn|Brown|Gaines|1984|p=257
• it was discovered that the Maharishi was independently negotiating with ABC Television in the US, to create a TV special featuring the band.--sfn|Gaines|1995|p=195
• A film crew led by producer Gene Corman – linked to ABC Television – did eventually arrive to film proceedings, but within a day of their arrival the remaining Beatles had left ---cite news|title=Identity Crisis: Joe Massot|date=October 1996|work=Mojo Magazine|p=146
• Upon returning to England, Lennon dismissed the idea that the presence of the film crew had contributed to the timing of their exit.---cite news|title=Beatles Not To Teach|date=16 April 1968|work=The Times|p=8
• -- — Keithbob • Talk • 20:21, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, Herrera isn't the best source. It does appear that Gaines has separately reported this. And we may want to be careful not to conflate what he says with what Cook de Herrera says, especially since she's clearly being speculative. Note that it may be incorrect to say "While the Beatles were in India in 1968 ..." since it seems that issues regarding a film occurred after Starr and McCartney had already left. TimidGuy (talk) 11:57, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

OK, good points, please feel free to make changes to ensure accuracy to the sources.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 17:51, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Parking text

• and encouraging TM supporters to insert salutary comments on the web pages of TM articles and press releases.--- name=Atlanta>"Transcendental Meditation Domain of Atlanta Directors Meeting Notes, 2005–2007". {not in citation given|date=January 2013}

I'm parking this text here since it is controversial and unsupported. If a proper source can be found then it can be re-added to the Marketing section of the article.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 21:02, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Revisions to the lead

As you know, some time ago I placed a Lead Rewrite tag on this article. There were a couple of problems: 1) all of the info in the article was not represented there.. 2)some sections were being given too much weight and... 3) there was too much detail. Coaster did a great job of adding some info for sections that were not represented and today I added info for the recently incorporated Marketing section. I also did some copy editing to remove the over abundance of detail on certain topics and I think this took care of some of the undue weight issues as well. The lead is now smaller, more accurate and more concise IMO. But.... please have a look at it and see what you think and make changes as needed. As soon as we have consensus, I'll remove the tag. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 01:01, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

I think it's excellent. Good work. TimidGuy (talk) 11:32, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, big improvement. Tighter, more balanced. Well-referenced at key points. Small point: what is the source for the current Ref # 26, which reads, "TM is not a religion and requires no change in belief or lifestyle. Moreover, the TM movement is not a cult"? I don't see a source in the ref. EMP (talk 22:32, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

I'll check on that ref, thanks. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 17:58, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Movement's assets

Should we peg the figure of $3.5 billion to a specific time, since the value has likely fluctuated over the years? Also, haven't the estimates varied? TimidGuy (talk) 11:46, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Here is what the sources say:

• USA assets
  • Today, his organization claims to hold U.S. assets of $300 million and to have taught six million adherents (training now costs $2,500) in T.M. centers around the world—NY Times, Lilly Koppel 2008 [6]
• Global assets
  • If so, you might be surprised to learn that Maharishi today presides over a corporate empire Indian sources have estimated to be worth more than $2 billion.—Baltimore Sun, 1993 [7]
  • According to the United Kingdom's Guardian newspaper, the maharishi's combined real-estate and business holdings total out at $3.6 billion. These days, the maharishi presides over a corporate empire Indian sources have estimated to be worth more than $5 billion -- a sort of Wal-Mart of the spirit, encompassing extensive land holdings in India, hotels in Europe, and publishing houses in the United States. --Hartford Advocate, Chris Harris, The Maharishi's Hotel of Emptiness, November 13, 2003
  • His land and business holdings are wildly complex, and the U.K.'s Guardian Newspaper has reported his net worth at $3.6 billion. ----High on the peace plane ; Biddeford couple plans to open transcendental meditation center, raise money for Peace Palace.---Portland Press Herald (Portland, ME)---May 21, 2005 | TREVOR MAXWELL
  • He was also an entrepreneur of enlightenment who built an enterprise of spiritual centers and schools that today is estimated to have assets of about $300 million. That's a lot of enlightenment.--- Beatles Guru Maharishi Mahesh Yogi Dies, NPR Weekend Edition – Saturday--February 9, 2008 | SCOTT SIMON
  • An Indian guru who taught some of the 20th century's most famous celebrities and created a multi-billion dollar spiritual empire has died. Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, founder of...--Government Press Releases (USA) - February 6, 2008---1960s Guru Icon Maharishi Mahesh Yogi Dies
  • From this small beginning the Maharishi over his lifetime developed a global organisation with nearly 1,000 TM centres, property assets valued in 1998 at $3.5 billion and an estimated four million disciples.---- Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, The Times, London, February 7, 2008
  • There are thousands of his transcendental meditation teaching centers around the world. His organization's $3.5 billion in assets include a chain of hotels, a health food distribution network and a veritable library of instructional books and videotapes, in addition to real estate holdings that include a five-story, 20,000-square-foot building near the New York Stock Exchange.--- Maharishi Mahesh Yogi; Was Meditation Guru to the Beatles, The Washington Post--February 7, 2008 | Patricia Sullivan
  • BRITANNICA-- not really an RS) Indian religious leader, founder of Transcendental Meditation (TM). His organization, which includes real estate holdings, schools, and clinics, was worth more than $3 billion in the late 1990s. Britannica Online Encyclopedia
• -- — Keithbob • Talk • 18:51, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Parking text removed from lead pending review of sources

• Additional sources contend that while TM and its organization may be spiritual in nature, they are not cultish. Source?? =The Herald Scotland, April 21, 2007 Meditation-for-old-hippies-or-a-better-way-of-life?, "TM is not a religion and requires no change in belief or lifestyle. Moreover, the TM movement is not a cult."

Can we verify the above source confirm the quote associated with it? Also are there any other sources to support this text? I think we need more if its going to be in the lead. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 18:57, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

I found part of the sourced article online but it doesn't mention anything about cults that I can see. [8] -- — Keithbob • Talk • 19:27, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

This is in the source: Is this what you were looking for?(olive (talk) 19:52, 30 January 2013 (UTC))

Moreover, the TM movement is not a cult. Although members of the organisation are fond of wearing creamy suits to "reflect enlightenment" and speak earnestly of yogic flying in the global country of world peace, they are not as strange as they seem. Yes, they operate on different axioms concerning the relationship between matter and mind, but these axioms are grounded in their own experience, and hold up to scientific scrutiny rather well."

Yes that's the one, I guess I failed to register at the site and the whole article was not visible (duh), thanks for posting it. Are there any other sources? Comments on it being in the lead? -- — Keithbob • Talk • 21:28, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

• Here is a list of potential sources:

1. Author Shirley Harrison says that the method of recruitment is one sign that helps to identify cult, and that TM's only method is advertising. She also says that "none of the other 'cultic qualities' defined by cultwatchers can be fairly attributed to TM." ref name=Harrison>Harrison, Shirley (1990). Cults: The Battle for God. Kent: Christopher Helm. pp. 93–103.</ref
2. TM teacher and spokesperson, Dean Draznin, "discounted CAN's claims" saying that Transcendental Meditation "doesn't involve beliefs or lifestyle" or "mind control" and "We don't force people to take courses". Another spokesperson, Mark Haviland of the related College of Natural Law said that TM is "not a philosophy, a life style or a religion. ref>McCombs, Phil (July 2, 1987). "Group Says Movement a Cult". The Washington Post.</ref
3. "Moreover, the TM movement is not a cult. Although members of the organisation are fond of wearing creamy suits to "reflect enlightenment" and speak earnestly of yogic flying in the global country of world peace, they are not as strange as they seem"[9]
4. "Transcendental Meditation has no designated scripture, no set of doctrinal requirements, no ongoing worship activity, and no discernible community of believers." ref name="Bromley"/
5. "no rigorous discipline is normally involved"..... "no extensive doctrinal commitment is entailed, at least not at the outset"..... "No one is required to declare a belief in TM, in the Maharishi or even in the possible effects of the technique".ref name="Wallis">Wallis, Roy (1984) Routledge and Kegan Paul, The Elementary Forms of the New Religious Lifepp 20-35</ref
6. A reporter for The Sunday Times wrote in 2010 that he did not think the movement was a cult due to the lack of a cult leader and its well-meaning participants.ref>Hannaford, Alex (December 27, 2010). "Mantra with a mission; Feature Om or ominous? The maverick film director David Lynch wants to bring Transcendental Meditation to our classrooms, and believes in 'yogic flying'. Can he get it off the ground?". The Sunday Times. London.</ref
7. "although there are some dedicated followers of TM who devote most or all of their time to furthering the practice of Transcendental Meditation in late modern society, the vast majority of those who practice do so on their own, often as part of what has been loosely described as the New Age Movement."ref name=Bromley>Cowan, Douglas E.; Bromley, David G. (2007). Cults and New Religions: A Brief History. Blackwell Brief Histories of Religion. Wiley-Blackwell. p. 18. ISBN 1-4051-6128-0.</ref

• While there are many sources that characterize TM as a cult it appears that there are a substantial number that also say it is not cult-like. Therefore, I think if we cite the best of these sources above, then the sentence can go back in the lead. What do others think? -- — Keithbob • Talk • 16:50, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Sources that say directly that TM is not a cult or cult like seem acceptable sources. Sources that describe behaviours and which we extrapolate from the behaviours that the reference is to cult like or non cult like behaviours is OR, so we shouldn't use those sources. We could use those sources to create content that describes or discusses behaviour associated with TM. What we can't so is label the behaviour unless the sources also label the behaviour. (olive (talk) 17:36, 1 February 2013 (UTC))

I think you've got at least three RS's that specifically cast doubt on the "cult" label. EMP (talk 17:47, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

“TM is not a religion, a cult or a philosophy, but simply a technique to calm the mind - and by extension, the body”.-- Ref: Samantha Lyster finds herself in holistic heaven with new-found happiness and tranquillity after learning the art of transcendental meditation., The Birmingham Post (England), October 21, 2000 | Lyster, Samantha---- — Keithbob • Talk • 18:18, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

OK I've added text and sources back in to the lead. [10] Please feel free to tweak (or revert for more discussion) as needed. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 01:18, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

I think the lead is now in good shape so I have removed the LEAD tag that I placed on it some time ago. If anyone disagrees they can replace the tag and we can discuss further. Thanks everyone for your help.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 18:32, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Sources removed from lead

These sources were cited in the lead to support the text " The TM movement has been characterized in a variety of ways and has been called..... a cult" However they do not support that text as far as I can tell.

• Cite book| publisher = HarperCollins| isbn = 978-0-06-093117-9| page = 211 |last = McTaggart| first = Lynne| title = The Field| date = July 24, 2003|url=http://books.google.com/books?d=uivwpQIRMwUC&pg=PA211&dq=transcendental+meditation&lr=#v=onepage&q=transcendental%20meditation&f=false}}
• The Field: A search of the Google and Amazon previews show only one usage of the word "cult" and its used in reference to Hal Putoff, the word is not included in the books Index section
  • cite book|last=Syman|first=Stefanie|title=The subtle body : the story of yoga in America|year=2010|publisher=Farrar, Straus and Giroux|location=New York|isbn=978-0-374-23676-2|pages=201–202|edition=1st|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=fFYFEmSVtQAC&pg=PA201}}
  • The Subtle Body: I can find no reference to TM as a cult in this book, can anyone else?
• cite book|last=Mason|first=Paul|title=The Maharishi : the biography of the man who gave transcendental meditation to the world|year=2005|publisher=Evolution Publishing|location=Lyndhurst|isbn=978-0-9550361-0-1|pages=254–255|edition=New ed. revised and updated.}}</ref>
• Paul Mason: I don't have this book, does anyone else? Can it be checked?
• thanks. PS in the meantime I've added Starks and Bainbridge as a source because I own that book and can verify it. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 18:10, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

I've looked at every page in the book by Symans that mentions TM or Maharishi and nowhere does it say or suggest that the TM movement is a cult. TimidGuy (talk) 11:41, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

The book by Mason doesn't include the word "cult" in the index, and I couldn't find any instance in the book in which he talked about cults. TimidGuy (talk) 11:58, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

OK, then maybe these cites can be used somewhere else. I think the books by McTaggart and Mason are already cited in other parts of the article. Thanks TG for your help. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 16:31, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

The point I found interesting about Syman was that she feels like Maharishi's approach was too secular. "The Yogi insisted that Vedanta had been badly misconstrued and misunderstood. To counter such distortions, Maharishi created his own system in high-modernist style. There was no color, no filigree, no story, no symbol, nor much ritual of any sort. Though he described Transcendental Meditation as 'psycho-physiological,' involving both mind and body, he never mentioned the subtle body by name, nor did he talk much about chakras or nadis or raising Kundalini." By the way, she also notes that he began charging money after initially making TM available for free because people felt that it wasn't of value unless it cost something. And she says that interest increased after he began charging money. TimidGuy (talk) 21:46, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

Delete in one place, add in another . . .

A couple of suggestions: For the following sentence on TM research under Programs, Transcendental Meditation, “Research reviews of the effects of the Transcendental Meditation technique have yielded results ranging from inconclusive[55][56][57][58] to clinically significant.[59][60][61] [62][63] here [11], 1) delete the sentence-- Reason: If this were a section on research, it might be OK, but in this context, a general treatment of the technique, the sentence seems excessively detailed; 2) But at the same time, I'd suggest adding a wikilink directing the reader to the TM research article, as is done in the final sentence of the opening section of the Transcendental Meditation article [12]. 3) Place this same sentence, along with another one from the Legacy section of the MMY article, in the Marketing section under History. Reason: much is said in this section about the use of scientific research as a marketing tool, without any information presented on whether any credible research was done, and whether the results were significant. The reader is not given any practical context into which to put this stream of information and opinion. I’d suggest putting these added two sentences about two-thirds into the second paragraph, thus:

“The Maharishi asked people with marketing expertise, like SIMS president, Jarvis, to present TM as a method for inner peace and relaxation based on scientific proof[309] and, because the TM technique was the first type of mediation to undergo scientific testing, it "has always received the most publicity"

"Neuroscientists Ronald Jevning and James O’Halloran wrote in 1984 that “The proposal of the existence of a unique or fourth state of consciousness with a basis in physiology” by the Maharishi in 1968 “has been a major contribution to the study of human behavior. It has resulted in a myriad of scientific studies both basic and applied in an area heretofore reserved for ‘mysticism'.” [188] Research reviews of the effects of the Transcendental Meditation technique have yielded results ranging from inconclusive[55][56][57][58] to clinically significant.[59][60][61][62][63]" EMP (talk 00:55, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

My responses: 1) My intention (and I'm open to discussion or other opinions) was to use the lead from the TMT article as the section to represent that topic (TM tech) in the Programs section in this article. So if there have been changes to the TM tech lead then I think its good if we carry forward those changes here. 2) I'm not a fan of easter egg wiki links in general because they can often be misleading, but if there is a contextual need for such a link in that section it might be OK depending on the context. 3) I don't see a problem adding the sentence under discussion to the TMM marketing section as you've described. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 18:30, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the thoughtful feedback! EMP (talk 00:03, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Lead again

• This is not in the sources given as far as I can see, so I'd like to remove it.

...including atheists and agnostics.

• The Concord monitor link doesn't connect, and further I couldn't find the article on the Monitor site. Maybe I've missed something here too, but if not, I 'd suggest removing the Monitor as a source. A source a reader can't find the original of seems pretty useless. Any thoughts on these two issues?(olive (talk) 19:09, 26 February 2013 (UTC))

Right, I don't see any mention of atheists or agnostics in any of these refs either. Seems like they are unsupported and should go. EMP (talk 20:08, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

I'll remove it. Its not sourced and adds very little to the article. If we come up with a source for the content, we can readd it.(olive (talk) 12:45, 5 March 2013 (UTC))

Inaccurate representation of a source

• This (below) does not represent the source accurately. The source is actually an article about the university, and this is the only line that references cult. I'd suggest rewording this to represent the source. Any thoughts?

The New York Times reports that Maharishi University says that it is not a religious institution but people who have left the movement refer to Transcendental Meditation as a cult and the University as its training ground.

• How about this version:

"A 1992 article in the New York Times said that Maharishi University is gaining credibility, due in part to research grants, but the article notes that some people say it's a training ground for what they refer to as the Transcendental Meditation cult."   (olive (talk) 12:39, 5 March 2013 (UTC))

I think that would be a more balanced representation of the source. The comment about MIU gaining credibility is clearly intended to provide context for the subsequent assertions, and it's a biased representation of the source to omit that. TimidGuy (talk) 16:12, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

No, it would not. Let's go back to the title "University degree comes with a heavy dose of meditation and skepticism". Then, lets go to the lede. The overall theme of the article is that, notwithstanding accreditation and research grants, there is substantial skepticism about the academic legitimacy of an institution which has all the hallmarks of a religious institution, denials to the contrary. No neutral reader would characterize this source as you are seeking to do so. Fladrif (talk) 22:40, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

The article twice notes that the university had done well in winning grants, and also reports that it had seen gains in credibility as a result, so I think its fair to mention that as well as the strong theme of skepticism (which as F notes, is mentioned in headline). I don't think this article can be adequately represented in single sentence. I'd suggest the following:

A 1992 article in the New York Times said that Maharishi University faced skepticism due to its ties with the Maharishi, to accusations from some former students that it was a training ground for a cult, and to criticism of its research on TM. The article also noted that the university had gained in credibility due to success in winning research grants, and that it had been formally accredited after close examination by education officials.

EMP (talk 20:42, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm happy to go with another version of the content per this source either Fladrif or Morning can recommend. My initial point was that we are dealing with a section on cult not on the university. The source is about the university. What ever we add must focus on the cult allegation. I believe there are only two short phrases on cult in the article so the content should be short and to the point.(olive (talk) 21:44, 11 March 2013 (UTC))

I see your point. I didn't take adequate note of the context. I would instead suggest the following shorter version:

A 1992 article in the New York Times said that Maharishi University faced skepticism due in part to accusations from some former students that it was a training ground for a cult, and also reported that the university had been formally accredited after close examination by education officials and that it had gained in credibility due to success in winning research grants.

I realize that this is still not ideal given the focus on cults and religion in this section, but otherwise the point about skepticism is taken out of context. EMP (talk 22:28, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Even shorter (and more accurate re: mention of students):

A 1992 New York Times article said that some who had left the TM movement had characterized TM as a cult and the Maharishi university as its training ground, although the article also reported that the university had maintained its accreditation in the face of very close monitoring by education officials. EMP (talk 00:19, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

I'd be fine with this EMP with a few changes, if there's agreement. The university is Maharishi University rather than the Maharishi University. I think we should either quote this(below) or change the wording, but as is its identical to the source wording: "university as its training ground." In the end I'm not sure there's a big enough difference to make a change in the original text, so I could agree with keeping that, too. The real problem is that the article/source applies to the university and is best placed in the MUM article which I see that it is. (olive (talk) 20:10, 14 March 2013 (UTC))

Suggestions incorporated and one other small revision made:

A 1992 New York Times article said that some who had left the TM movement had characterized TM as a cult and Maharishi University as its training ground, although the article also reported that the university had maintained its accreditation in the face of close monitoring of its faculty and academic mission by education officials over the previous 12 years. EMP (talk 23:28, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

I'd be Ok with the above EMorningP as long as we quote the bolded section or reword it. Otherwise, that opening part of the sentence is a bit too much like the source, in my opinion anyway. Any other suggestions?(olive (talk) 16:35, 19 March 2013 (UTC))

Merge

The article MERU, Holland is a blatant coatrack (60% of the sources don't even mention MERU and it does not meet the standards for WP:CORP) and so I have proposed it be split up and merged as follows:

• Content about the University be moved to Transcendental Meditation in education
• Content about administrative headquarters be moved to Transcendental Meditation movement
• Content about the Maharishi's residcence be moved to Maharishi Mahesh Yogi

Comments?-- — Keithbob • Talk • 17:20, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Since there are no objections I am going to begin making the move. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 16:19, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Content was moved today from the MERU, Holland article into the Organizations/ Maharishi Foundation section of this article.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 17:42, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

John Gray and MERU

I've removed this cite as it contains two dead links and no indication as to who the publisher is or how we might find the source to verify the info:

• cite web|url=http://www.netlink.de/meru/home.htm%7Carchivedate=April 3, 2004|archiveurl=http://web.archive.org/web/20040403233338/http://www.netlink.de/meru/home.htm%7Ctitle=Deutsche MERU-Gesellschaft ---- — Keithbob • Talk • 18:17, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

And this one too

• ref>Some sources say Gray graduated from Maharishi International University instead of MERU.</ref---- — Keithbob • Talk • 18:22, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes. I've also just removed John Gray from earlier in the article. The sources are a bit of a mess and include a dead link. Per BLP I'd like to make sure we have RS for the claims made about Gray. I'll look at the John Gray article too, tomorrow , and clean up the refs on claims made.(olive (talk) 02:46, 4 April 2013 (UTC))

I think the issue is that some sources say Gray got a degree from MUM and others say he got a degree from MERU. It would be good to take a closer look and resolve it. I agree that saying in this article: "possibly John Gray" is not the way to handle it.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 14:31, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, as I said above I'll look at the refs today and clean this up. In my mind, its a BLP issue, so until the refs are cleaned up, removal seemed best.(olive (talk) 16:28, 4 April 2013 (UTC))

Of these refs:

ref name="Time">Time magazine Tower of Psychobabble, Elizabeth Gleick, June 16, 1997, Retrieved July 2011

ref name=Hampson>Hampson, Sara (Feb,4, 2008). "Looking to God for Relationship Advice". The Globe and Mail. Retrieved 4 April 2013.

ref name="NY Post">WRITER'S EDUCATION FROM MARS|New York Post|November 13, 2003|page=012

Bridgman, Mary (October 14, 1996). "LOST IN SPACE AUTHOR ARGUES MEN, WOMEN STILL NO CLOSER THAN MARS, VENUS". Columbus Dispatch (Columbus, Ohio). p. 01.B.

I can access only Hampson. I'm still working on accessing the rest.(olive (talk) 21:01, 4 April 2013 (UTC))

thanks for looking into it. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 17:07, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Since the content being discussed above has now been moved to this article I am cutting and pasting this open discussion here. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 17:42, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Purusha and Mother Divine

Re KBob's deletion of the Mother Divine mention. It is certainly true that 99 44/100% of the coverage is in things like Global Good News rather than mainstream press. But, it can be sourced to reliable sources. Perhaps the text and references from Monasticism#Other_religions_or_movements should be repeated or modified for inclusion in this article. I think that similar text and references were in an earlier version of this article once upon a time. Fladrif (talk) 19:08, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi Fladrif, Thanks for bringing this up at the talk page. Yes I removed it from the lead after it was placed there by an IP. I did so for several reasons. One, there are 21 organizations listed in the article and it seems prudent to me not to list all 21 in the lead but instead to list the 4-5 most notable ones, that have the most coverage in secondary sources and significant amounts of text in the WP article. I don't have any problem with the Global MD Org being included in the Organizations section of the body of the article. But it would be good to have a secondary source, if possible. To the best of my knowledge, all of the other 21 organizations are cited to at least one secondary source and it would be nice to continue that standard if we can. We can/could include orgs with just their own web site but then we will have many more to add besides the Global Mother Divine Org. I know, reliable sourcing is one of your areas of interest. What are your thoughts on this? I'm open to discussion and suggestions. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 04:16, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

PS As far as I can tell the Mother Divine monastic community is different from this Global Mother Divine Org. Related, but different I think. Here's the web site, see what you think. And the Mother Divine monastic community still has its own section (along with the Prusha settlement) here in this article and you can view it here. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 04:16, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't pretend to have even the vaguest idea of what any of these organizations actually do from the sources, so if there is difference between the Global MD organization and the monastic community, I have no idea how we would distinguish them. I vaguely recall, in connection with a sourcing issue, looking up some on-line corporate records that showed that GGN was actually run by one of the MD organizations, and that so were a couple of educational institutions for women. I can't recall which ones. I think that as long as MD is treated in the body (and I see looking more closely that it is), it is probably not necessary to mention it in the lede as well. I agree with your assessment that using the 5 or 6 most prominent organizations in the lede is the way to go. Fladrif (talk) 21:27, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

The Global MD Org likely sponsors the Mother Divine monastic community and also those girls schools too, as you mention, but there is nothing in any sources to support that as far as I can find. I just did a search on High Beam for "Mother Divine" and got 51 articles, but none of them mentioned TM or the Maharishi. We can add more about this organization as sources become available. Glad we agree on having the 4-5 most notable in the lead. thanks, -- — Keithbob • Talk • 01:12, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

I've also added a one sentence mention of it in the Other Organizations section, using the official web site as the source. The edit can be seen here.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 16:57, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Characterization section

The characterization section is a hodge podge of information with cult sect and religion mixed together. I'm working on classifying the content under sub headings in a sandbox [13] for anyone who is interested. Any questionable content will be left in the article and simultaneously listed on the talk page for discussion. Comments are always welcome.(olive (talk) 16:43, 19 March 2013 (UTC))

The section definitely needs work, glad you are working on it. What's your plan for implementing changes? -- — Keithbob • Talk • 17:42, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm not really making changes per se, I'm simply reorganizing. so there will be no content added or removed in this version. I think when its done, anyone who is interested can look at it in the sandbox and make comments. I'll leave a notification here when I've completed the work. I don't see any big problems arising with it since there is no change in content.(olive (talk) 21:27, 22 March 2013 (UTC))

Sidetracked with other things in RL so back at this now, sorry for delay.(olive (talk) 17:18, 14 June 2013 (UTC))

Deletion

Should at least be discussed. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 09:06, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Maharishi Group

Recently an AfD discussion concluded that the Maharishi Group article should be redirected here. I have carried forward text from that article that is well-sourced and included it the subsection called: Organizations/Other. As discussed on the Maharishi Group talk page and at the AfD many items in the article were poorly sourced, coatrack and/or original research. The main conclusion was that there are no reliable secondary sources that define what the Maharishi Group is, what it does, what it consists of, where it is located, who are its officers and what is its history and purpose. Instead it appears that the term Maharishi group is a catch all phrase that encompasses the many activities and business dealings of the TM organization or movement and is used conveniently by the press and the organization itself in inconsistent ways. For those reasons I do not feel the following content should be carried forward to this article:

Confusing, contradictory claims being made by primary sources (check them and you'll see)

• • According to websites of member companies, the Maharishi Group also includes:
• Age of Enlightenment Publications, a printer of books such as Celebrating Total Knowledge in Every Girl through Maharishi's Vedic Education: First Textbook of Ideal Girls’ Schools around the World, and Maharishi's Absolute Theory of Defence: sovereignty in invincibility
• Global Diamonds
• Maharishi Channel, a satellite television channel, the first 24-hour religious channel in India.
• Maharishi Orchards, a grower with certified-organic orchards in Uttarakhand and Delhi It grows apples, walnuts, vegetables, and Ayurvedic herbs.
• Maharishi TM Centers
• Maharishi Vedic Construction, a construction company headed by Anand Shrivastava. It took over a troubled plantation near Kamshet in Pune, Golden Glades, which had difficulty repaying investors.
• Ram Rajya Clothing, a manufacturer of organic clothing
• Star Granites, a producer of granite products in Andhra Pradesh which exports to Europe and America
• Trans Bharat Aviation, a non-scheduled operator of propeller-driven aeroplanes and helicopters
• Several broadcast channels in Holland

Original research?

Several members of the Maharishi Group have offices at:

Maharishi House

A-14, Mohan Co-Operative Industrial Estate

Mathura Road, New Delhi, Delhi 110044, India

Companies located there include Star Granites, Maharishi Vidyapeeth-Transcendental Meditation Centre, Maharishi Ayurveda Products Pvt. Ltd., Maharishi Solar Technology, Maharishi Veda Vision, Age Of Enlightenment New Services, Maharishi Housing Development Finance Corporation, Maharishi Prakashan, Maharishi Orchards, and Cosmic Software.

Not verifiable at the present time

• Anand Shrivastava is president of Maharishi Ayurveda Corporation. It was founded in 1987 and is ISO 9000 compliant. It markets over 900 products to 37 countries; exports which account for 60% of its output. note: no such article exists in archive of The Hindu for that date
• Other educational franchises include the Cosmic Institution of Neo Entertainment, Media and Arts (C.I.N.E.M.A.) and the Cosmic Business School (CBS).
• Cosmic Academy, affiliated with Manipal University, offered the first-ever MBA in Business Process Outsourcing in 2004. [I cannot access this source, can anyone else?]

• • NOTE: The above section entitled Maharishi Group (regarding the merge result of AfD) was posted by me on 16:53, October 27, 2012‎. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 21:09, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Notes

I started reading through the article after seeing it being discussed here. I believe it is far too detailed and often promotional. It needs a lot of copyediting/trimming to tighten it up. I may circle back to try to read-through and tighten the rest. CorporateM (Talk) 14:07, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

• I removed some claims regarding the first organization to teach this form of meditation, because it was only cited to that organizations' website. However, this information would be important to include if we have a proper source for it.
• I am very confused and need to figure out if TM is an org, a form of meditation, a religion, etc. (or all of them or some mix)
• The Characteristics section could probably be consolidated into a single balanced section, rather than having dedicated sections for positive and negative info.

-- signing for -- User_talk:CorporateM) 14:07, 21 January 2014 (UTC) --whose comments appear above.

User:CorporateM good idea to summarize the Characteristics section. One suggestion would be to create a revised version in a sandbox and then link it here for others to comment on. Best, -- — Keithbob • Talk • 21:14, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Quick note/fyi

I've reverted an edit that was made to the section on cult religion and sects. The section itself deals with all three topics and the heading I reverted to describes that while the new heading inaccurately suggests the section is only about cult. The reverted version is also the long time stable version.(Littleolive oil (talk) 00:18, 15 March 2014 (UTC))

Lead

The article is TM movement which refers to an organization rather than a technique. I readded the phrase that distinguishes movement and this article from technique. (Littleolive oil (talk) 15:20, 3 April 2014 (UTC))

Merge

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

There is no reason for there to be so many articles containing so much duplicate content.

As of now there is:

• Transcendental Meditation
• Transcendental Meditation movement
• Transcendental Meditation technique

Each with more or less duplicate content.

I'm proposing to merge Transcendental Meditation movement into Transcendental Meditation, since they both refer to the same thing, using different names, or alternatively Transcendental Meditation technique should be merged into Transcendental Meditation.

Zambelo; talk 03:47, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

• Tentatively support, but open to hearing counter-arguments from people who may be more familiar with the topic/articles in question. ATM, I support anything that will make our coverage of the topic more concise. CorporateM (Talk) 04:13, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose at this point in time. TM is used in two different ways. It is used to refer to the religious movement and it is used to refer to a meditation technique. The overview page at TM deals with both in an overview. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 11:13, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

Note that there's a TM wikiproject and that a number of articles have already been merged, and more merging has been suggested. See Tasks and Completed. There's also been some related discussion on the Talk page TimidGuy (talk) 11:40, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

It's great that new editors like Zambelo and CorporateM are coming to the TM topic area with a fresh eye and new ideas. As TimidGuy has stated above the project has been in a consolidation trend for some time. I think this trend is good as long as it is done with due consideration for the whole of the topic area. Rather then merge this article it might be more useful to delete or merge the History of Transcendental Meditation article as the history of TM is already given in much detail in the Transcendental Meditation movement and Maharishi Mahesh Yogi articles. Any thoughts on that idea?-- — Keithbob • Talk • 17:53, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Also, this article Maharishi Heaven on Earth Development is a stand alone article on the history of a single (seemingly defunct) TM subsidiary with almost no notability and which suffers from coatrack and OR issues. I would also nominate that one for merger or deletion.

I'd also nominate Golden Domes for merger as it's a stand alone article about two buildings of marginal notability.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 18:02, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Maharishi Heaven on Earth Development and Golden Domes both "look" fine to me. Each has a plethora of reliable, independent secondary sources. Presuming the sources say what the Wikipedia article says they say. Each appears to be enough of an independent concept to warrant a separate article. The Heaven on Earth project needs some copyediting to make it understandable. Like we need to explain what is meant by "utopian projects" and what a "City of Immortals" is.

In general I like sub-articles like History of Transcendental Meditation, but we should use Summary style with a See Main Article to avoid excessive duplication. Meanwhile this section should be merged out of the History sub-article. My two cents, but I have never heard of this topic before. CorporateM (Talk) 19:56, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments CorporateM. Did you look at the talk page for Maharishi Heaven on Earth Development? There is some discussion there outlining problems with the sources and potential OR issues. Also, regarding the History article you said:" this section should be merged out of the History sub-article" are you saying it should be eliminated? or just moved to another related article? If moving is your suggestion, where should it be moved to in your opinion?-- — Keithbob • Talk • 21:22, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Abstain: I stopped in the middle of my trimming of this page largely because I realized I do not have the subject matter expertise needed to do so well (I'm still not really sure what it is, but I get the sense there is some ambiguity there), but I also started giving it a lookover in response to allegations that you have a COI and started with a very strong assumption that you didn't actually. However, ATM, I am no longer so sure. Therefore, I'm not really comfortable getting involved in an article where you may (or may not) have a COI, while you simultaneously get involved in an article where I have a disclosed COI. Though I have gotten lots of thoughtful feedback from other COI editors (both disclosed and not disclosed) and don't find it particularly problematic, this specific scenario seems troubling and I'd rather just edit elsewhere. Maybe someone else can provide input though... CorporateM (Talk) 17:20, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

As I stated at my RfA I do not have a COI but that doesn't stop editors who I have been in past content disputes with on this topic from making baseless accusations (I'm not referring to you). So I understand your concern and honor your decision to abstain. I don't see any need for change here, just wanted to encourage you to make changes if you wanted to. Best,-- — Keithbob • Talk • 18:44, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

I think I would hedge my bets on being a fan, which can have the same effect on someone's editing as a COI. However, in either case it would raise suspicions of quid quo pro type editing and it's better for both of us to avoid the drama. CorporateM (Talk) 17:21, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

I have no problem with either trimming, or merging this article into a main article. Its nice to have uninvolved editors look at the article, edit, and comment.(Littleolive oil (talk) 15:23, 3 April 2014 (UTC))

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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A breach of say it how it is

I thought Wikipedia had a policy called WP:SPADE? Which states: "is to describe something clearly and directly".

Well on reading this article there seems to be not one mention of the term "bullshit" or "total utter bullcrap"! Which is a flagrant breach of WP:SPADE.

I thought Wikipedia wanted articles that describe things for what they are. Well this article just goes round the houses skirting the fact it's talking about bullshit.

Every time transcendental meditation is mentioned it should be replaced by the word "bullshit" as per WP:SPADE.

Therefore in the lede alone common sense would be made immediately clear with this edit:

The Transcendental Meditation movement (also referred to as Bullshit or BS) is a term or phrase that refers to the programs and organizations connected with the bullshit techniques founded by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi in India in the 1950s. The organization was estimated to have 900,000 participants in 1977,[1] a million by the 1980s,[2][3][4] and 5 million in more recent years.[5][6][7][8][9][10][11]

Programs include advanced bullshit practices called the TM-Sidhi program ("Yogic Flying"), a bullshit health care program called Maharishi Ayurveda,[12] and a BS system of building and architecture called Maharishi Sthapatya Ved.[13][14] The BS movement's past and present media endeavors include a publishing company (MUM Press), a television station (KSCI), a radio station (KHOE), and a satellite television channel (Maharishi Channel). Its bullshit has been offered through primarily through nonprofit and educational, such as the Global Country of World Peace, and the David Lynch Foundation.

The movement also operates a worldwide network of bullshit teaching centers, schools, universities, health centers, and herbal supplement, solar panel, and home financing companies, plus several TM-centered communities. The global organization is reported to have an estimated net worth of USD 3.5 billion.[15][16] The BS movement has been characterized in a variety of ways and has been called a spiritual movement, a new religious movement,[17][18] a millenarian movement, a world affirming movement,[19] a new social movement,[20] a guru-centered movement,[21] a personal growth movement,[22] a religion, and a cult.[18][23][24][need quotation to verify] Additional sources contend that BS and its movement are not a cult.[25][26][27][28] Participation in BS programs does not require a belief system and is practiced by people from a diverse group of religious affiliations.[29][30][31][32]

This article is almost the literal embodiment of sticking the finger to WP:SPADE in the most egregious way; it even has issues in the lede:

"and a cult.[18][23][24][need quotation to verify] Additional sources contend that TM and its movement are not a cult.[25][26][27][28]"

If something is quite obviously something then it has to fight to say it's not; then the primary view proves - by the nature of the vociferous counter-argument - that it is pure bullshit in its rawest sense!! I hope the suitable amends will be made soon because this article is an affront to common sense and WP:SPADE.86.182.41.97 (talk) 12:57, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

While I am far from an expert on the subject of the article, you have made an essential error on what Wikipedia:Call a spade a spade is. It is not a Wikipedia policy at all, it is a Wikipedia essay. "Essays have no official status, and do not speak for the Wikipedia community as they may be created without approval. Following the instructions or advice given in an essay is optional. There are currently thousands of essays on a wide range of Wikipedia related topics."

This particular essay has nothing to do with article content. It advises people to speak plainly during the various discussions and disputes between Wikipedia's editors. An actual policy is Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, which prevents the use of terms such as "bullshit" for items our editors dislike. Dimadick (talk) 16:52, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

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Fixing duplicate refs

I fixed a bunch of the (large red-lettered) cite errors which were the result of duplicate references being given the same name. I removed as much duplication as I could find, but my fixes are imperfect and not final. The first citation for a given reference will sometimes have a page number included, while subsequent cites of the same ref can give a different page number. I'll clean it up in the next few days. Manul ~ talk 21:57, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

 Done At least the immediate issues are fixed, anyway. There's a lot more cleaning up of refs that could be done. Manul ~ talk 13:47, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

General principle

As a general principle on Wikipedia we use sources if they are reliable and verifiable despite the opinions they hold. We do not decide one position is better than another. NPOV does not refer to the sources we use but the article we create. When speaking of cult and T M there are reliable sources which support the term cult and RS which do not. While you have decided some sources are created by adherents and therefore not usable you ignore the background of other sources which may have biases in other directions. This is why we do not choose sources based on the opinions they hold, but choose sources based on reliability, verifiability, and pertinence in the mainstream, to determine weight. Choosing to use one view over another is an example of cherry picking content which can create a specific point of view. I'm not going to revert your removal of content, but you are incorrect and have removed legitimate content weighting a view and creating a non-neutral POV. Thanks for fixing the refs. I had noticed the problem but never got around to fixing it.(Littleolive oil (talk) 04:09, 16 August 2016 (UTC))

You said This is referencing sources not the opinions of those who meditate,[14] but three out of the four sources cited are exactly that. Saying "Additional sources" misleads the reader, suggesting that these are independent assessments, not a collection of personal testimonies. The first source appears to be from an independent party and was retained. You are welcome to offer other independent sources; I just dealt with what was there. Preferably, we want independent assessments from experts such as sociologists. Manul ~ talk 15:26, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

They are sources first. What they contain is second. This was my point. And my point stands Manul. Independence from a position is not something we choose sources for. We choose them because they are reliable and verifiable and we add them per weight. Do you really think there are authors whose work is not in some way biased towards an opinion. Of course they are. We expect authors to have an opinion and to act and write on those opinions. This is not science and even there while we look for independence per our own policies human beings have positions and biases which leads them to research in certain areas in the first place.. We are not, as editors, in a position to judge the rightness or wrongness of a position; we are mirroring the published information on a topic. We leave the judgement of the quality of that material to the publisher and we ourselves take it from there. It is not within the remit of a Wikipedia editor to make judgements on whether a position is accurate and that's what you try to do when you cherry pick your sources per what you think is an author's involvement. I will not revert you; I don't think it matters very much one way or the other, but you might consider my points. (Littleolive oil (talk) 16:07, 16 August 2016 (UTC))

No, articles need to be based upon third-party sources; see WP:SOURCES. You appear to have misunderstood the issue here. We don't favor or disfavor sources based upon our judgments of what they contain. Rather, we seek independent sources because that is Wikipedia policy. And experts are preferred; also see WP:BESTSOURCES. Manul ~ talk 16:49, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

If these sources are verifiable and reliable they are compliant. We choose sources for their reliability and third party is one determining factor. Right. We don't chose sources for what they contain. Are the sources you removed reliable; if they are then they should not be removed unless they violate weight. Given the highly weighted aspect of the section towards the pejorative I doubt weight is a problem/ Per our policy:

Wikipedia articles are required to present a neutral point of view. However, reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject.

Common sources of bias include political, financial, religious, philosophical, or other beliefs. Although a source may be biased, it may be reliable in the specific context. When dealing with a potentially biased source, editors should consider whether the source meets the normal requirements for reliable sources, such as editorial control and a reputation for fact-checking. Editors should also consider whether the bias makes it appropriate to use in-text attribution to the source, as in "Feminist Betty Friedan wrote that...", "According to the Marxist economist Harry Magdoff...," or "Conservative Republican presidential candidate Barry Goldwater believed that...".

The bolded text is beside the point. We require third-party sources per WP:SOURCES. Nobody has said that we must only permit "neutral, unbiased, or objective" sources. But certainly they must be third-party, at least. And we should especially look to what experts say -- that's the essence of the WP:BESTSOURCES policy. "Participants contend that TM and its movement are not a cult" is fine with those personal testimonies as sources. Would you agree to that (even though you reverted it)? We definitely can't make the misleading statement that "additional sources" contend that it's not a cult, falsely suggesting that these are independent assessments while hiding from the reader that it is participants who have said so. Manul ~ talk 17:37, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

No, the aspects of policy encased in the words of the bolded text are not beside the point. They are the point. You are ignoring the basic tenets of the policy. Third party sources is one criteria for choosing a reliable source. Then a source that has been deemed reliable, may contain opinions in the content of that source, but those opinions are not the factors that determines reliability. If I write a book on my opinion of the merits of green cheese and that book is published by a reliable publisher then that book may be used as a position on the merits of green cheese. I can't argue this further so feel free to add whatever you want at this point.(Littleolive oil (talk) 20:19, 16 August 2016 (UTC))

Again, it is the third-partyness of sources that is at issue here, not our opinions of what sources say. Disregarding that crucial element of WP:SOURCES really is ignoring policy. Manul ~ talk 20:29, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

• Also note the personal testimonies were added only to the lead and were used nowhere in the article body. That's another reason for them being inappropriate (the lead is supposed to summarize the article). Manul ~ talk 14:02, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

I want to be really clear. I have no desire to change the content you are discussing; its a small issue and not worth a lot of time. I made a change earlier this year because I felt the word sources was more neutral than words like participants and still do.

However, I am concerned by your misunderstanding of policy and of WP:MOS. First, the Sunday Herald, the Sunday Times, and the Birmingham Post are reliable sources for the content you removed, content that observes an opinion. These are secondary and reliable sources for this content. None of this has to do with my opinion. I am noting policy, and then the content in reliable sources.

Second, the lead should summarize the content of the article; it does not summarize every source in the article body... It summarizes the information. There is information in the article which says some do not see T M as a cult. Therefore, the statement in the lead which summarizes this position and which uses reliable sources to do so is appropriate,(Littleolive oil (talk) 17:19, 18 August 2016 (UTC))

We have third-party analyses by sociologists and cognitive neuroscientists. You wish to say that "other sources" dispute those experts, but without mentioning that it is not sociologists, not cognitive neuroscientists, not experts who are doing the disputing, but practitioners giving their personal testimony. That's misleading, unequivocally. It's a classic WP:FALSEBALANCE that goes against WP:BESTSOURCES and WP:WEIGHT. And it disregards WP:SOURCES which says that articles should be based upon third-party sources. It even seems undue to mention a journalist's opinion alongside those experts, as if they are equivalent. Note that better sources by experts offering an opposing view are more than welcome -- I'm just going off the sources we have at the moment. Manul ~ talk 22:47, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

I don't want to say anything; I didn't write the content and I have not and will not revert you. In an article such as this its acceptable to have range of opinions and impossible to gauge a general equivalency. However, I have no problem with the kind of equivalency you have set up.(Littleolive oil (talk) 00:06, 19 August 2016 (UTC))

You began this thread to advocate for your edit that says "additional sources" dispute the cult label, which, as I've explained, is misleading. You've continued to advocate for it. Now you say, "I don't want to say anything". I don't know what "impossible to gauge a general equivalency" is supposed to mean. Sources by experts (e.g. professional sociologists and cognitive neuroscientists) are better than sources by non-experts. They aren't equivalent and it is easy to gauge that. Indeed that's the point of WP:BESTSOURCES, WP:WEIGHT, and WP:FALSEBALANCE. Manul ~ talk 01:58, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

No Manul, I began this discussion explaining a concern I had with the way you understand policy. Had I been advocating for something I might have pushed to make the change which I did not. And no, I am not continuing to advocate for anything, I am continuing to point out that you are in error in my opinion as to your understanding of policy and MOS. I have clearly indicated first, that I will not revert and second that I am fine with the content as is, and I'll reiterate, I did not add the content in question; I made what I thought was a logical change to that content. My concern was and now is that you are mischaracterizing what I am doing here and as well, initially, your lack of understanding along with a propensity for pushing issues with out input such as the link to COI here may be a concern for Wikipedia as a whole. In the end, given that you chose to respond with words like, advocate for, while mischaracterizing my input meansIts time to move on. I've said what I had to say, I hope you can hear it.(Littleolive oil (talk) 02:19, 19 August 2016 (UTC))

COI links to content that is hidden

I'd like to ask you again. You have linked my name in the tag above to content that cannot be seen except by admins, oversighters, checkusers, and researchers,

I would like to know and I would suggest have a right to know:

• What the link is linking to

• How you who has far as I know is not an admin, oversighter, checkuser or researcher has been able to see the content linked, and why you are using hidden content to illustrate your point.

I'd add that the link should be visible to a majority of editors which it is not if it requires special permission to see.

If this is content that was removed or oversighted, I am wondering why you are using it and how you're even able to use it with out admin status

I will repeat that you have no diffs that show any COI edits.

Please deal with these issues as soon as you can. Thanks Manul. (Littleolive oil (talk) 17:29, 18 August 2016 (UTC))

Don't remove posts by other editors. you posted a template here on this article. My questions stay here. The diff to the AE was not oversighted was it; this link is. Please refer to my points above. The link is useless to other editors as is since most cannot access the information.(Littleolive oil (talk) 00:01, 19 August 2016 (UTC))

You want to use this article talk page to hold a one-on-one conversation between us. That seems squarely inappropriate -- the purpose of an article talk page is to improve the article, not to host such conversations. It's entirely reasonable for someone to remove such a post while asking the poster to bring it to a user talk page, which is what I did.

I can't remember the last time someone edit-warred on a talk page. Since you are so insistent, I'll respect your wish, despite it being pretty clearly inappropriate.

Now to your questions. As I said in my edit comment, they were already answered.[15] Manul ~ talk 01:50, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

And I can't remember the last time and editor removed a cmt from a talk page.We do not remove other editor's comments, That's high handed, The AE is not hidden, the content linked to above is. Readers are supposed to be able to read what is on the talk page-this talk page. That's why I am asking you here to clarify. If I am misunderstanding the link and the hidden content let me know, But removing the comment is not the way to go here. (Littleolive oil (talk) 02:27, 19 August 2016 (UTC))

I'm not willing to go in circles about this anymore. The AE request answers your questions, as I keep saying. I will not be more specific because it would be gratuitous exposure for you, even though nothing I would say would be outside of the information found in the AE request. This thread itself is gratuitous exposure for you, which is the greatest reason that it is inappropriate for an article talk page. For your own sake I give you permission to remove and revdel (an admin will surely grant the request) this thread along with my comments. And you may ask an admin to unhide the link, if you wish. You own it, after all. Manul ~ talk 03:44, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

I did ask privately that an admin look at the link. The link had to have created by an admin and was a link to content that had been removed because I experienced a two year long period of off-Wikipedia harassment. I didn't see it in the AE you linked to but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and hope I missed it. This begs the question how did you get the link and since you are not an admin how did you see it or even know it was there. The content in the link is based on, at least, 8 year old information that even at the time of the TM arbitration was no longer accurate, and which the arbs knew about because I told them. I am concerned about the fact that you have the link and knew what it linked to, I am concerned that you have seen fit to use information like this, while mischaracterizing my input in the discussion above ignoring my very neutral position on the content where i said, to summarize, that I am fine with it, while you attempt to paint me as an advocate. There is nothing in this that points to sincerity and I also question your honesty. I hope I am wrong in terms of your honesty, but at this time Its hard for me to see through your actions to actions that are sincere rather than manipulative.(Littleolive oil (talk) 15:52, 20 August 2016 (UTC))

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Numbers in lead

The lede contains the text 'and 5 million in more recent years.[5][6][7][8][9][10][11]'. This text has 2 problems. One, what does "more recent years" mean? It should be changed to a specific year. Two, it has 7 sources. This is a red flag, one reliable source should be enough. Seven sources makes it seem like all of the sources are spurious. The 'Practitioners and participants' section has the same problem. Ashmoo (talk) 12:15, 15 October 2021 (UTC)