Talk:Trabant/Archive 1

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Is the nickname Trabbi (two "b"s) or Trabi? Googlefight prefers Trabi, and that's how I've seen it up to now:

Trabbi ( 31 500 results)

versus

Trabi ( 76 600 results)

of course, I'll defer to someone from .de.

My German wife says that it doesn't really matter - but is inclined towards one 'b' since it's short for Trabant which has one 'b'. However, she also says that, as in English, the one 'b' inclines one to pronounce it with a long 'a' which is also incorrect, so overall both spellings are ok and understood. Graham 12:29, 26 May 2004 (UTC)

Rabbi?

Rabbi? What rabbi? Who drives a rabbi?

Widespread use of Fiat 128 engines?

This came as many owners were already replacing
the initial engine with that of a Fiat 128.

This is news to me. Such practice would have been extremely rare, if for no other reason than the very short supply of any Fiat engines. (BTW, de:Trabant (PKW) doesn't mention anything about Fiat engines put in Trabis.) If we can't come up with any evidence to this being a widespread practice, I suggest removing the sentence. --ThorstenNY 18:49, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

http://www.team.net/www/ktud/601_2.html and http://www.uniquecarsandparts.com.au/car_info_awz_trabant.htm mentiones engine conversions with Fiat 128 engines. // Liftarn
Yes, but was it all that common? Just because some people did it doesn't mean a LOT of them did. Besides, most 128 engines in the soviet region would probably have gone as replacements for Lada ones, seeing as it was basically a copy of an old Fiat 124 itself... 193.63.174.10 (talk) 19:53, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

There are well, at least there is one. Have done it, Fiat 950 (actually Zastava 950 ccm) engine with its gearbox put in a trabant, takes some effort but it can be done. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.176.207.177 (talk) 00:08, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Widespread use of Fiat 128 engines? II

I don't know a single Trabbi running with a Fiat engine, this must be a missinformation. One thing about engine tuning which was widespread, was the self tuning of the cylinder block by filing off this. After this the cylinder height was less therefore the volume smaller and the compression higher. Those cars could drive up to 140 km/h easily. There where also tuned engines from the Trabant racing series (up to 170km/h) (Yes they had there own racing class)on the black market. It is also well known that the Stasi (Security Agency of East Germany) used those tuned cars to observe western cars on the highway (Autobahn) from West Germany to West-Berlin trough East-German territory or simply to reach them faster.

Engine Size

There was the Trabant 500 with 494cm³ and 13 kW (18 PS) Trabant 600 with 599cm³ and 17 kW (23 PS) Trabant 601 with 600cm³ and 19,1 kW (26 PS) Trabant 1.1 with 1100cm³ and 31 kW (42 PS)

Planned use of "smaller" VW Polo engines in updated Trabi?

Having recently quit my standing as a 1991 Polo owner, I would have regarded a full 1100cc engine (i suspect 1089 or 1108? actual sizes of late 70s/early 80s polo motors giving 50 and 60hp output, alongside the teeny 898cc with 40hp) as a slight upgrade - my own used a 1043cc with a reasonably healthy 45hp / 33kw output. This motor series was used (also including the 1272cc (55 - 75hp, 113hp supercharged / 40-55 and 83kW) versions, and probably larger capacities) by VW in the Golf and Polo (with variations on it's technological outfitting, but always with the 1.05 having the same capacity and power) from about 1983 through to 1995, when it was discontinued in favour of their much more up-to-date (and yet smaller!) 999 (50hp) and 1197cc (60hp) units. Indeed I'd be tempted to say it was the most popular through the late 80s, when the Trabant replacement plans were drawn up...

Perhaps the original author's intended meaning referred to the physical size of the whole engine apparatus? (this point needs to be made more obvious!).. I'm intimately familiar with the thing having overhauled one, and it's already impressively compact for what's in there, but may have trouble fitting in the stead of a 2-pot, 600cc 2-stroke (the trabi's engine compartment appears a fair bit lower and shorter than a polo bonnet!) - plus I assume a fair bit of rearrangement would have been necessary regarding cooling and power transmission provisions.

Thoughts on the subject do reveal the remarkably low weight of the vehicle, however - the polo engine has nearly twice the peak power and isn't short on midrange torque, and is fitted to a frame that itself seems lightweight compared to modern superminis and aerodynamic next to the trabant... but even with a close ratio gearbox the car can't claim better than a 1 or 2 second advantage on the 0-60mph (96... call it 100kmh) dash! (This is also despite a 20mph / 33kmh top speed difference, the VW holding claim to a fairly realistic 145kmh/90mph)... I expect at low, city-bound speeds, the trabi may even beat the more powerful car away from the traffic lights, and combined with the handling advantages of it's duroplast-derived low weight, be much quicker on sideroad dashes and be an incredibly entertaining driving experience. (I'm not an owner or a committed fan, but I know how much of a smile something even as light as the polo can raise, and how it can give larger, "quicker" vehicles considerable headaches crosstown, with just a 45hp engine, wide-set 4 speed gearbox, narrow tyres and squashy suspension)

-) -MP
It is actually not as big aproblem as it might seem. The 600cc engine was in fact small (though my back intervened when I tried to lift it out by myself), but this lead to a lot of unused space in the engine compartment. You could fit 4 to 5 sixpacks just on the left side of the engine, so there was plenty of space for the Polo engine. As for the old bonnet, that one had to go. It was replaced by a less sloped, mor angular one.Winnie-MD 13:57, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
haha I love the comparison by showing how much beer you could cram in there... respect :D (though, wouldn't it get a bit hot?!) 193.63.174.10 (talk) 19:56, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

As you can tell from http://www.snydmans-wahn.de/Pics/T11alt/T11-Motorraum.jpg and http://www.snydmans-wahn.de/Pics/Umbau1/Umbau4.jpg the Polo engine fits quite well. You could probably fit an even bigger engine if necessary. // Liftarn

Movies

There is also a movie called Go Trabi Go. Apokrif 17:25, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Amusement park ride

There is also an amusement park ride named Trabant, it's pretty common. It does not yet have an article but if and when, it's another disambig I think. ++Lar: t/c 16:37, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Fast?

The article says trabants are fast: and was compact, fast and durable. Later on, the article says that their 0-60 was approx 21 seconds and top speed 70mph: The car took 21 seconds from 0 to 100 km/h and the top speed was 112 km/h. This isn't exactly fast, is it? Can we remove that adjective?

The selling points was indeed (unless my German is way off) was that it was compact, fast and durable. See http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8455460697000685500 // Liftarn
When you're in a Trabbi, 80 km/h will appear fast to you. 84.182.82.233 (talk) 18:24, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Compared to its rivals, it's plenty fast. You can do a lot with a 20s 0-60mph time if you're brutal with the machine (tyres... passengers... etc), and the top speed was still at least 10 if not 20-25% in excess of the russian blanket speed limit, which some other small cars struggled (or completely failed) to meet. It's not fast by the standards of today by any chalk, but there's that essential qualifying word in the text - "was". A lot of european cars would have been badly outclassed by it when it was originally launched. 193.63.174.10 (talk) 20:01, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

"Trabant" meaning

it does not exactly mean "satellite". "Trabant" is a very old-fashioned astronomy term for "moon" ie. "companion/accompanying star/body". It is not commonly used for artificial satellites. The noun "Satellit" means both artificial and natural satellites, though in general talk usually the artificial ones.

Not Latin

The word "trabant" isn't Latin, neither it has Latin origin. In mediaeval German it meant foot soldier, personal guard, serviceman. The origin is Czech "drab", "drabant": a menial, foot soldier, a rogue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.84.182.24 (talk) 12:10, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Destruction of Value

There needs to be a discussion of the fact that a finished Trabi was so horrifically worthless that the East German dictatorship could have made more money selling the raw materials for its production. In other words, by manufacturing this shitty Marxist ideal, the Communists were literally destroying value.

[citation needed]

And you need to sign your contributions and temper your bad language and political axe grinding. Vauxhall1964 (talk) 20:58, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


Value is relative, and therefore depends on how you define it. A car that has non rusting panels, seats 4, a reliable engine with only 5 moving parts, and achieving >50mpg was an extremely valuable mode of transport. Bear in mind that the design was very efficient in the use of raw materials, and the 'organic-composite' Duroplast panels even used waste cotton. Making a product from raw materials for profit is the industrial definition of 'added value', but this is a purely financial definition [In a world without bankers, value becomes more useful and beauty looses its price] Ray (classic car enthusiast, and observer of the failings of communism and capitalism alike) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.16.141.198 (talk) 21:51, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Any car is better than no car. As a one time pedestrian/cyclist/bus rider in all kinds of inclement conditions and time pressures, offer me a Trabant, or a large pile of its component materials that I could sell for hard currency, and it'd be a hard decision. I'd quite likely take the car. Unless the devaluation meant that I could sell the materials, then buy a different trabi and have money left over. Currently the car I'm driving now is probably worth more at a scrapyard than if I was to sell it (and certainly worth a lot more if I was to take it to a dealer under the UK Scrappage Allowance scheme), but it's a working vehicle that happily takes me to and from work every day. That's worth more than what I'd get at the end after going to all the trouble of taking time off, emptying it, taking it to a scrapyard, then going off to find a replacement. 193.63.174.10 (talk) 20:03, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
The Trabant was not made under traditional Western economic theory, it was made in a Communist country. But even more to the point, engineers in Warsaw Pact nations were masters of doing more with less, because they often lacked the raw materials, technology, and funding that their Western counterparts had. I own a Soviet-made watch, very basic construction, doesn't look like anything special. But it keeps better time than my friend's Rolex, and it's legitimately 200m water-resistant. It has a movement designed in the 1950s and a water-proofing system that incorporates a plastic crystal, of all things. The Trabant was made with an outdated, polluting engine and had a body made out of composite waste. It also ran for an average of 28 years. I'm no supporter of Communism, but they did some things well. Give credit where it's due. Jsc1973 (talk) 04:13, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
Whatever the calculations on the Trabant, the communists had no problem selling it until the Wall came down, for about 0.5 to 2 years' wages. The waiting lists (yes) are said to have reached 18 years. Maybe that was a singular event but somewhat-used Trabants sold for more than the factory price. --88.74.161.235 (talk) 15:20, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Trabant Diplomat.

I fondly remember the advertisement for the "Trabant Diplomat" in the Saechsicher (sp) Zeitung - featuring a picture of a six-door Trabant.

This was well before the "Wende" and certainly not material for "Neues Deutschland".

Unfortunately, chances are nil that this ad even existed in digital format, let alone that it could be found by Google ... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.93.67.168 (talk) 14:46, 4 March 2007 (UTC).

78.52.50.52 (talk) 21:38, 7 February 2013 (UTC) Here's a pic of the Trabant Diplomat: http://einestages.spiegel.de/external/ShowTopicAlbumBackgroundXXL/a27382/l6/l0/F.html#featuredEntry

Witze

A Cold War-era joke about the Trabi — recently featured on http://www.spiegel.de — goes like this:

A Trabi comes racing down the highway, misses a curve and comes to rest in a field over a cowpie. The cowpie says, "So, what are you?" "I'm a car," the Trabi replies. "Ha!" says the cowpie, "If you're a car, then I'm a pizza!"

Sca 14:50, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Another joke was the following:

-How many person do you need to build a Trabant? 3
1. one to draw the shape;
2. one to cut them;
3. one to glue them together.

This is of course in reference to the plastic body of the car.

93.96.115.80 (talk) 12:13, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Manufacturer

The Trabant was produced by "VEB Sachsenring Automobilwerke Zwickau" which was renamed after 1990 to "Sachsenring Automobilwerke GmbH". --84.188.103.176 13:48, 2 July 2007 (UTC) (de:Benutzer:RokerHRO)

place of the tank

It seems that the petrol tank is above the motor? 216.86.113.233 03:54, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Yep. Gravity fed, so you don't need a fuel pump! Blaise (talk) 09:08, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

It's not litterally 'above' the engine , but it is higher - as per pretty much every motorbike you'll see. Fuel pumps can stop, but gravity wont. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.16.141.198 (talk) 21:57, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

So does it have a stopcock as well? (and a reserve setting? :D) 193.63.174.10 (talk) 20:04, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

it has both, maybe found it here (DRAWINGS OF ALL PARTS OF THE TRABI) http://www.trabiland.de/trabiex/pic/Uebersicht.html


found it! pic 32 the part right above is the cock who goes to the in-cabin part on the non-drivers side.


217.235.3.97 (talk) 20:16, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, about 5 litres of stinky maki fluid left. Please to be bending down and turn cock to rightmost setting. Also like, find gas station (40..90 km from here)--88.74.161.235 (talk) 15:22, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Wording/ neutrality

The writer of this article seems to overstate the engineering of this vehicle. Note the frequent use of "ultimate" as in "ultimate engineering" or "ultimate competitor". Wondering if this is the result of a political leaning or a mis-understanding of the English word - ultimate.

Ndjamena (talk) 12:34, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree. This car was not the ultimate anything. OddibeKerfeld (talk) 17:48, 30 April 2009 (UTC)


External links

I agree that there are too many links here, many of which point to blogs of owners, which seems more designed to drive traffic to those sites than to provide information. In the immediate terms, I edited the external links to delete the following, which point fruitlessly to FTP sites or point to a blog that requires authorization to view.

MrNeutronSF (talk) 11:04, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Umweltzonen

Why are Trabant automobiles not allowed in Umweltzonen? --88.76.253.109 (talk) 18:39, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Easy. They're 2-stroke. Therefore, unbelievably high emissions of all kinds of nasty stuff. I'd be surprised if my 4-stroke (but uncatalysed, carburetted) bike was allowed in. (Dunno _exactly_ what an Umweltzonen is, but given the name I can hazard an educated guess) 193.63.174.10 (talk) 20:06, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umweltzone#Germany

Cultural influence / Army version

I think there is little detail on the cultural influence of the vehicle on Eastern germans as well as in Western culture, particularly after the fall of the Berlin wall. There is no further information regarding the army version as well.--Andyboza (talk) 05:50, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Army Modell

The Trabant 601 A (Armee - Army) and Trabant 601 F (Forst - Forest) This one is called Trabant Kübel (or Kuebel if you can´t type ü). In duty at the Border Troops of the German Democratic Republic and the National People's Army. Build 8022 overall.

Trabant 601 A "Kübel"

Alteration to the civil version are eg. a auxiliary heating system and the engine is shielded from interference (RFI suppressed). Same for the work in the Forest. Build 2024 overall. The word Kübel is in english bucket or tub. In WWII cars with high mobility and low wight were needed and so they throw away all what is "useless" for an soldier in action. Eg. the roof or the doors. So that soldiers not fall out of the cars, seats where build as body-contoured seats (or bucket seats). All this kind of cars are called "Bucketcars" or Kübelwagen in german. Examples for Wehrmacht, NVA and Bundeswehr: [[1]]

The civil version of the Trabant 601 A and F is called TRAMP and was only for export, most of them to Greece.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70jD6wjQPXg Build 926 overall.

For the Trabant 1.1 Tramp i found that:

http://www.viertakttrabant.de/viertakttrabant/bilder/prostrampeng1.jpg

http://www.viertakttrabant.de/viertakttrabant/bilder/prostrampeng23.jpg

http://www.viertakttrabant.de/viertakttrabant/bilder/prostrampeng4.jpg

Source: http://www.trabantkuebel.de/technik/technik-kuebel-und-tramp/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.235.25.47 (talk) 19:42, 29 June 2010 (UTC)


== Shaking the Trabbi to mix the 2-stroke? == HI back in the 70s with our lambretas we put the oil in first then the petrol then shook the hell out of them.

I'm thinking quite strongly that I'm going to straight up remove that bit, and if someone's got any hard evidence to suggest that's how you really do it they can add it back in - with a citation. You wouldn't put the oil and fuel into a 2-stoke bike and then shake the whole machine, to do so with an entire car is absurd. 2-stroke fuel isn't commonly called "pre mix" for nothing. Plus the effect of that going into a tank already with mixed fuel in is questionable, particularly if you misjudged it and ended up without enough space for one or the other. You mix it up in your much more easily shaken 5, 10 or 25 litre jerrycan(s) then tip the resulting stuff into the car (or bike). Preferably make up some full cans but then only tip in as much as you need for the journeys you'll go on that day or perhaps week, so you don't then have to ACTUALLY end up shaking the car to mix up the now-seperated fuel-oil emulsion near the end of the tank. (The half full jerrycan is still easily shaken, and it's only a few moments to tip the remainder into the tank, where it will agitate the leftovers by itself).

I mean, maybe it's true, but it's the first time I've heard of doing that for the Trabant, or other 2-stroke cars like the old Saabs, or any motorcycle, lawnmower or chainsaw. You mix it up before pouring it in, like anyone with a brain.

Retorts, corrections... youtube uploads of archive footage? 193.63.174.10 (talk) 20:15, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

like EVERYTHING! in life, the Sandmännchen define it. the clip is called filling station and it´s late 70´s anywhere in the GDR. at 5.00 mins you can see how to fill up a trabant. fuel sort is called 88 gemisch (means mixed) with 88 octan. it´s mixed 1:33 (oil:fuel) for high load like long autobahn rides or in the mountains or 1:50 for normal use. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FnNCi3dYmw

Excellent, will definately watch more of those 86.161.154.170 (talk) 22:18, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

I never saw anybody doing this, or heard so. Sandmännchen not being a documentary. Someone kidding you? Trabant come with mixing stick doubling as fill meter. - No, really, I never heard of this and I doubt it will work - you would spill gas and explode your trabant before achieving good mix. Besides, there was no need. You drive to gas station, you select Zweitakter 88 pre-mixed gas, envy all the Westerners pumping their 92 and 95 super, done. --88.74.161.235 (talk) 15:27, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Changing

i´ve changed the model section into a gallery section. please could a native speaker check it. i didn´t found common pics for the TRAMP version. see also the discussion - Army model. there are some exemplar sites, but they are no common. if this added on the old controversial gallery section could be closed/deleted. 217.235.16.53 (talk) 22:39, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

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Weight of the car / Sascha Fiss projects

Nice work, but the dry weight was 615 kg (Limousine) and 650 kg for the Universal / Station wagon, not 750 kg !

And Sascha Fiss made several Trabants with VW-engines and VW front unit (Lupo 3L TDI, Lupo GTI and 1.8 Turbo) up to 220 hp, one single car with 300 hp. Link to www.unicates.de ! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.155.220.68 (talk) 16:47, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

About the pronunciation

I would doubtly say that that written in IPA is the correct pronunciation, since alveolar trill /r/ occurs only in High German dialects; not in Prussian, Saxon and Thuringian (those in DDR) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.35.5.198 (talk) 11:51, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes, a certain Austrian corporal was famous for trilling his Rs — and infamous for a great many other things. Sca (talk) 18:00, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

'Revival'

The Potential revival section appears to be outdated. Sca (talk) 18:00, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Lack of fuel gauge

The article says "Earlier models had no fuel gauge; a dipstick was inserted into the tank to determine how much fuel remained."

It was not exactly like this, there was no need for a regular manual test. There was a three-state fuel switch below the dashboard in the middle (on, spare, off). Should the car have run out of fuel in "on" mode, the driver turned the switch to "spare" position to open the way for some remainder fuel from the bottom of the tank to the engine. I found a source supporting my memories, unfortunately in Hungarian: http://www.hetek.hu/szabadido/199812/trabant_az_usa_ban

Also, "earlier models" is an understatement. As far as I remember, Trabis were sold with this system way into the eighties. Maybe the last "deluxe" two-stroke series - those equipped with 4-speed electric wipers etc - were different, but it was really only in the last couple of years.

If you don't mind I'll change these. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.78.117.6 (talk) 07:56, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

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