Talk:Timpani/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

glissando

Gliss. is the standard term, isnt it? A portamento or continuous change of pitch can of course be heard following a stroke, but the effect during a roll is arguably closer to 'glissando' of a piano or harp. Sparafucil 10:31, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Rewrite

I tried to take this article to the next level. Let me know if I got a bit overzealous with the organization into sections, or if it's too technical. (I got logged out when I was making that edit. I am User:68.0.215.210.) – Flamurai 09:33, 29 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I think it's great stuff. --Camembert

Thanks. Obviously, the history section is lacking. I'm hoping someone who knows a little more about pre-orchestral history than I do will fill it in someday. I might take a crack at the history starting in the 18th century. – Flamurai

I added a little more information to the marching tymp reference...namely the fact that they had fibreglass bowls...as well as the last usage of the marching variety in DCI

Hrm, I've never encountered any special marching timpani. DCI may use some with fiberglass bowls to withstand the elements, but generally the concert version is used for cost reasons (multiple sets are prohibitively expensive). It should be noted that in general older sets are used outdoors for reasons of wear, if an older set is available.

Ok, so I'm going to read over this and write up a list of small things to change/add later. This is mainly insights from an expert/active timpanist regarding style, timbre, and some specifics about drum usage/sticks/techniques and things of the like where applicable. There's also some minor ambiguities that need to be cleared up (one I found so far regarding glissando). I'll add it here later when I have time. AeoniosHaplo 10:11, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I added something to the pre-orchestral history, I used a reference(added to the reference section) but I've only just started using Wiki Markup language, so the link to the bottom of the page didnt work. If somebody could fix that & maybe explain to me how to do it in future, that would be great. Fennessy 10:16 May 28 2007

Timpani/Tympani

I always thought that "Tympani" came from Greek, hence the alternate spelling with the "y". I also always thought that the correct singular was "tympanon". Yet, I don't want to edit that into the article, for fear that I may be wrong... Gus 01:38, 2004 Mar 24 (UTC)

"Timpani" is the italian spelling. Tympani is the latin. When using the italian, 'timpano' is the correct singular version, while for latin the correct is 'tympanum'. Hope that clears it up. AeoniosHaplo 09:57, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Just one addition: the Latin plural is actually tympana; tympani is just a variant (or incorrect) spelling for the Italian timpani. And to be thorough, I would add that the Greek is sing. τύμπανον (tympanon), pl. τύμπανα (tympana). Lesgles (talk) 20:47, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Bartok Violin Concerto

Anyone know which violin concerto the passage played at the edge is in? I forgot the source I used when I originally wrote the article, and I don't have access to the score anymore. — Flamurai 07:26, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)

Peer review comments

Holy cripes this is one long article, but that is great. I made a few minor typo corrections. see ya Jaberwocky6669 21:28, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)

"Taps"

I didn't write the bit about taps. I've never actually heard that term used. Does anyone know if it applies to general tension rods or just to ones with a T-handle? – flamurai^TM 16:08, Feb 6, 2005 (UTC)

I've only heard it used (in the UK) for the T-shaped handles. Lupin 02:01, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It's generally just called a drum key. Nowadays most all timpani, snares, and other tunable drums that don't have tuning rods built in use a standard square bolt which a standard drum key can adjust. Some timpani have the tuning handles built in, but those are really annoying (and hazardous) to play. – your local timpanist/timpani expert AeoniosHaplo 10:00, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Timpani manufacturers

Lupin suggested this article include a list of timpani manufacturers. I'm not sure that's a good precedent. Let me know if you think this list should be included, and feel free to add to the list before it goes in the article. – flamurai^TM 00:50, Feb 7, 2005 (UTC)

There's no reason to put this in the article - there many lists on many eclectic topics in wikipedia with an article all to themselves. I suggest you move this list to List of timpani manufacturers and link to that page from this article. Lupin 01:49, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Moved to List of timpani manufacturers

Added repertoire

This is an article replete with great timpani information. I added some additional repertoire to the multiple timpanist section. I don't want to step on your feet by editing too much, but I'd love to help improve the article little by little. --Waterboy12 08:58, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

That's cool. The only think is there are a lot of works in each category... it'd be too much to list them all. Really the idea is to just give a few examples. – flamurai (t) 12:24, Feb 11, 2005 (UTC)

Berlioz, Holst, Sibelius

The article mentions Grande Messe des Morts twice, which seems appropriate given its lavish use of timpani. But in the section on Timpanists, it really needs to be mentioned when talking about multiple timpanists. Perhaps it could be lost from Timpani in the Orchestra. (NB in that section it claims there are 10 timpanists, when I believe there are only 8).

It would also be good to point out that in Uranus (from The Planets Suite) the timpani echo one of the themes. I am sure that this happens in some Sibelius symphonies but cannot say which.

Scherzo of the First is the big one. David Brooks

Hope this helps. Great article. VirtuousCircle 00:01, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Good points. I'll have to see where The Planets reference can be worked in. – flamurai (t) 20:42, Feb 13, 2005 (UTC)

I checked some sources, and the Berlioz Requiem does indeed require 10 players playing 8 sets of drums. Also, isn't it Jupiter in which the timpani echo one of the themes? Once I check on that, I'll edit the movement in. – flamurai (t) 20:08, Feb 17, 2005 (UTC)

Checked my score of The Planets and you're both right, after a fashion. There's a brief stretch in Jupiter where the timpani play along with the main melody (not the "I vow to thee, my country" section, though, where the range of notes is too large and only some can be played). That's the part that requires two timpanists to accomplish. In Uranus, one timpanist frequently plays an E-flat B F G sequence that is strongly thematic, sometimes as a solo and sometimes alongside other melodies. I would avoid the word "echo", however, as it suggests an effect where the theme would be played first by other instruments and then repeated in the timpani; that's not particularly what's involved here. --Michael Snow 07:08, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for the research. – flamurai (t) 16:49, Feb 18, 2005 (UTC)

Jupiter: in the "I vow to thee" section the timpani play the bass line. They also play two distinct themes, the opening syncopated theme and the 3/4 tune, although in the latter one note is faked. I just played it a few weeks ago :-) And, in Uranus, while timp 1 plays the 4-note theme as noted, timp 2 plays two notes (C and G I think) as part of the bass line. A full performance probably needs 7 drums, if you think of the layout problems. David Brooks

Another fairly well-known thematic use of the timpani is the Turandot movement of Hindemith's Symphonic Metamorphoses. In the coda, the first 10 notes of the theme are repeated by the timps, with percussion accompaniment. Piston quotes it in Orchestration. It's easier to play this piece on 5 drums than 4, btw.

And, while I'm dispensing trivia, there's the thunder effect in Symphonie Fantastique, using 4 drums. My preference is for two percussionists to cozy up to the 2 timpanists so the rolls are close, not tremolo. David Brooks 19:28, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

First recorded orchestral use

In section 5.2 (Timpani in the orchestra) it is stated that

The composer Jean-Baptiste Lully was the first to use timpani in the classical orchestra in his 1675 opera Thésée.

How sure can we be that this was the first use of timpani in an orchestra? I imagine timpanists very often improvised their parts by ear, or with guidance from a trumpet part. If Thésée was simply the first occurence of timpani in a score, I wouldn't assume it's the first occurence ever. Lully might just have been the first composer meticulous enough to produce a written part. An inventory of some kind would weigh more heavily, though. Perhaps it should be stated in the article that this was the first occurence in a score? --EldKatt 29 June 2005 17:30 (UTC)

That's what the sentence means. It's not clear. I will fix it. – flamurai (t) June 29, 2005 17:44 (UTC)

Improvement drive

A related topic, Percussion instrument has been nominated to be improved on WP:IDRIVE. Come and support the nomination there or comment on it.--Fenice 06:52, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Zarathustra

Any thoughts on mentioning Richard Strauss's Also Sprach Zarathustra in this article? It may not be that notable from a timpanist's point of view, but to the general public no other orchestral segment showing off timpani has the recognizability of the Introduction to ASZ. (Thanks to 2001:A Space Odyssey, of course.) The Dallas Symphony Orchestra and the BBC's websites include sound samples from ASZ to illustrate timpani [1], [2]. Classical Music for Dummies refers to it too [3]. (By no means am I suggesting adding another sound-sample here on WP, just an honorable mention, perhaps.) ---Sluzzelin 11:52, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I added a sound clip. I am considering paring back the number of repertoire references... some of them are too obscure to be informative to a general audience. – flamurai (t) 03:29, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Allow me to resolve. "Timpani in popular culture". 'Nuff said. AeoniosHaplo 10:15, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

A new picture

Hello.. I'm a French contributor of the article on the Timpani. I took this photograph. if that interests you ...Walké [[4]]

. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.214.119.50 (talk) 07:31, 15 May 2007 (UTC).

Auto review

Automated Review

- The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question. - *Please expand the lead to conform with guidelines at Wikipedia:Lead. The article should have an appropriate number of paragraphs as is shown on WP:LEAD, and should adequately summarize the article.^[?] - *There may be an applicable infobox for this article. For example, see Template:Infobox Biography, Template:Infobox School, or Template:Infobox City.^[?] (Note that there might not be an applicable infobox; remember that these suggestions are not generated manually) - *Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (numbers), there should be a non-breaking space -   between a number and the unit of measurement. For example, instead of 4 inches, use 4 inches, which when you are editing the page, should look like: 4 inches.^[?] - *Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (numbers), when doing conversions, please use standard abbreviations: for example, miles -> mi, kilometers squared -> km², and pounds -> lb.^[?] - *Per Wikipedia:Context and Wikipedia:Build the web, years with full dates should be linked; for example, link January 15, 2006.^[?] - *Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (headings), headings generally do not start with articles ('the', 'a(n)'). For example, if there was a section called ==The Biography==, it should be changed to ==Biography==.^[?] - *Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (headings), headings generally should not repeat the title of the article. For example, if the article was Ferdinand Magellan, instead of using the heading ==Magellan's journey==, use ==Journey==.^[?] - *Per WP:WIAFA, this article's table of contents (ToC) may be too long- consider shrinking it down by merging short sections or using a proper system of daughter pages as per Wikipedia:Summary style.^[?] - *There are a few occurrences of weasel words in this article- please observe WP:AWT. Certain phrases should specify exactly who supports, considers, believes, etc., such a view. - **correctly - **might be weasel words, and should be provided with proper citations (if they already do, or are not weasel terms, please ~~strike~~ this comment).^[?] - *Watch for redundancies that make the article too wordy instead of being crisp and concise. (You may wish to try Tony1's redundancy exercises.) - **Vague terms of size often are unnecessary and redundant - “some”, “a variety/number/majority of”, “several”, “a few”, “many”, “any”, and “all”. For example, “~~All~~ pigs are pink, so we thought of ~~a number of~~ ways to turn them green.” - **“In ~~the year [of]~~ 2000” - *Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a.^[?] - You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Davnel03 21:19, 29 July 2007 (UTC)