Talk:The Crown (TV series)/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Ongoing Cast List Discussion

Obviously this is quite important and I don't think a consensus has really been made yet. A massive table is unnecessary, but I feel like some sort of visual aid should be implemented to show the characters who have/will be in EVERY season but played by different actors. Potentially something like this? The existing lists can remain showing the recurring cast, but there doesn't seem an easy way of displaying the characters played by multiple actors (eventually it'll be THREE actors on certain characters).

Character	Appearances
	Season 1 (2016)	Season 2 (2017)	Season 3 (2019)	Season 4 (2020)
Queen Elizabeth II	Claire Foy		Olivia Colman
Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh	Matt Smith		Tobias Menzies
Princess Margaret	Vanessa Kirby		Helena Bonham Carter
Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother	Victoria Hamilton		Marion Bailey
Louis Mountbatten, 1st Earl Mountbatten of Burma	Greg Wise		Charles Dance
Prince Edward, Duke of Windsor	Alex Jennings		TBA
Antony Armstrong-Jones, 1st Earl of Snowdon	Matthew Goode		Ben Daniels

TheMysteriousEditor (talk) 13:45, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

The narrative is doing the job nicely at present. I don't see the need for any tables. The article would be far better served if someone got busy and started a list of characters article, which can include these over-stuffed, under-useful tables. ----Dr.Margi ✉ 17:57, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

I can really taste the salt and passive aggressiveness in your comments. I think you should be the one to get busy and create the list of characters article. TheMysteriousEditor (talk) 18:14, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

Why? I don't care if one gets started any more than I care about a so-called visual aid that's an excuse for another pointless table. I'll leave that to the editors who enjoy creating such articles. Oh, and it is possible to disagree without being thought "passive aggressive" even if the term is mis-applied. You might check the definition. ----Dr.Margi ✉ 20:27, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

I guess you just speak in constant sarcasm then. TheMysteriousEditor (talk) 20:42, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

This comes as a shock even to me, but I approve of the above table. Given the nature of the series, the earlier suggestion would not work aesthetically - with masses of grey space between all the different cast members. This resolves that issue. I think it should use the standard main/recurring/guest cast colours behind the actor names - there is every likelihood, for instance, that Josh O'Connor will be in the regular main cast for seasons 3 and 4, when his predecessors as Prince Charles were recurring cast (and featured main on one occasion). Using this table therefore gives the clear advantage of allowing all actors for a main cast character across the entire series to be seen easily. As classifications and full cast lists won't be known until season 3 is released, however, I don't think the change should be made until then (as far as I'm aware, we don't know if the Duke of Windsor will continue to feature at all...) U-Mos (talk) 06:58, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

As I'm on a bit of a wikitable binge at the moment, here's what this may look like:

Character	Season 1 (2016)	Season 2 (2017)		Season 3 (2019)
Queen Elizabeth II	Claire Foy			Olivia Colman
Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh	Matt Smith			Tobias Menzies
Princess Margaret	Vanessa Kirby			Helena Bonham Carter
Queen Mary	Eileen Atkins	Does not appear
Anthony Eden	Jeremy Northam			Does not appear
Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother	Victoria Hamilton			Marion Bailey
Peter Townsend	Ben Miles		Ben Miles	Does not appear
Louis Mountbatten	Greg Wise			Charles Dance
King George VI	Jared Harris		Jared Harris	Does not appear
Winston Churchill	John Lithgow		John Lithgow	Does not appear
Duke of Windsor	Alex Jennings			Does not appear
Duchess of Windsor	Lia Williams			Does not appear
Harold Macmillan	Does not appear	Anton Lesser		Does not appear
Antony Armstrong-Jones	Does not appear	Matthew Goode		Ben Daniels
Harold Wilson	Does not appear			Jason Watkins
Prince Charles	Billy Jenkins		Julian Baring	Josh O'Connor
Princess Anne	Uncredited		Lyla Barrett-Rye	Erin Doherty
Camilla Shand	Does not appear			Emerald Fennell
Graham Sutherland	Stephen Dillane	Does not appear
Patricia Campbell	Does not appear	Gemma Whelan		Does not appear
Lord Altrincham	Does not appear	John Heffernan		Does not appear
Billy Graham	Does not appear	Paul Sparks		Does not appear
John F. Kennedy	Does not appear	Michael C. Hall		Does not appear
Jacqueline Kennedy	Does not appear	Jodi Balfour		Does not appear
Kurt Hahn	Does not appear	Burghart Klaußner		Does not appear
Young Prince Philip	Does not appear	Finn Elliot		Does not appear
Margaret Thatcher	Does not appear			Gillian Anderson

Obviously some guesswork here, but gives a nice visual idea. Not sure if best to put the featured characters here, but ignoring them in a table of starring characters doesn't quite sit right with me. U-Mos (talk) 08:25, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

TheMysteriousEditor, U-Mos, you guys read my mind. This is exactly the kind of format I want for the cast section. I vote to implement this once season 3 starts. Zuko Halliwell (talk) 21:05, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

I do believe a table like either of the above is necessary. But like I said when I first proposed the table, I feel like it should only be for the characters which are played by multiple actors across seasons. I feel like the current format (of a list and no tables) is fine for the rest of the characters who only appear in one "era" of seasons (and are therefore only played by one actor in the show). I think this is the most straightforward method, and to be honest, I don't believe the colouring is a good idea. This is a unique show (as far as I'm aware) and a viable solution needs to come about. TheMysteriousEditor (talk) 21:21, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

@TheMysteriousEditor: Ah I see, so you're suggesting a table purely to show cast changes in addition to the full cast lists as is? Or a partial main cast list with Queen Mary, Churchill etc. below those appearing across eras? My feeling is it's more efficient (and better follows MOS:TVCAST to put them together, showing all main cast, actor changes and classification changes in a single table. What about characters whose cast classification changes (as above, likely to affect Prince Charles and Princess Anne in season 3) under your suggestion, for instance? U-Mos (talk) 22:56, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

I have created a new article to illustrate the full list of cast across seasons one and two (List of The Crown characters). The first table below only shows the main cast (not featured, recurring, or guest lists), for use on the main article (The Crown (TV series)). The second table below is my proposal for what an updated version of the first table could look like. At present, it is unclear whether certain characters will appear in both seasons three and four, or just four, so only the confirmed season four cast (Colman, Menzies, Bonham Carter, and Bailey) are shown in that column.

For use until the full cast list of season three is announced:

Character	Seasons
	1	2
The Royal Family
Queen Elizabeth II	Claire Foy
Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh	Matt Smith
Princess Margaret	Vanessa Kirby
Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother	Victoria Hamilton
Queen Mary	Eileen Atkins
Louis Mountbatten	Greg Wise
King George VI	Jared Harris
Prince Edward, Duke of Windsor	Alex Jennings
Wallis Simpson	Lia Williams
Antony Armstrong-Jones	Matthew Goode
The Royal Household
Peter Townsend	Ben Miles
British Prime Ministers
Winston Churchill	John Lithgow
Anthony Eden	Jeremy Northam
Harold Macmillan		Anton Lesser

Draft of what new table might look like after season three is announced:

Character	Appearances
	Season 1 (2016)	Season 2 (2017)	Season 3 (2019)	Season 4 (2020)
The Royal Family
Queen Elizabeth II	Claire Foy		Olivia Colman
Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh	Matt Smith		Tobias Menzies
Princess Margaret	Vanessa Kirby		Helena Bonham Carter
Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother	Victoria Hamilton		Marion Bailey
Queen Mary	Eileen Atkins
Louis Mountbatten	Greg Wise		Charles Dance
King George VI	Jared Harris
Prince Edward, Duke of Windsor	Alex Jennings
Wallis Simpson	Lia Williams
Antony Armstrong-Jones	Matthew Goode		Ben Daniels
The Royal Household
Peter Townsend	Ben Miles
British Prime Ministers
Winston Churchill	John Lithgow
Anthony Eden	Jeremy Northam
Harold Macmillan		Anton Lesser
Harold Wilson			Jason Watkins

Willwal (talk) 21:14, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

• Comment: Because of the cast changes of starring/major/historical roles, I agree that a chart helps, at least for the changed roles. I'm not 100% convinced that the roles that do not change need to be in the chart. I also do not see the need for multiple colors (green, blue, pink) that are in one of the sample charts. Softlavender (talk) 21:25, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

@Willwal: For now I've moved the new article to Draft:List of The Crown characters - no disrespect to the work you've put in, but it is a matter under current discussion so we should work to a consensus here before having anything in article space. Drmargi has reverted the changes to this article, I see. Listing by household is interesting, but does that go against MOS:TVCAST? @Softlavender: The colours are standard for cast lists to show cast classifications, per Template:cMain etc. If this is the only place where such cast are listed, it's needed; if they are also elsewhere delineated by classification, then that's fine. My feeling is, why repeat information that can be shown in one place? U-Mos (talk) 01:15, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

It's not true that the colors are "needed"; if that's a condition then I oppose the tables outright. Softlavender (talk) 01:37, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

@Softlavender: It's not a condition at all, maybe I wasn't clear. What is required is some way to differentiate between cast classifications: either colours, or a combination of grid/list, or some other way. U-Mos (talk) 02:43, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

No, "some way to differentiate between cast classifications" is not "required". Softlavender (talk) 03:03, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

It absolutely is, see MOS:TVCAST (and, for that matter, any other TV show article). It is the express purpose of a cast/character list to follow the primary source's cast designations, i.e. main/recurring/guest cast (and what is currently designated 'featured' in this particular case). U-Mos (talk) 03:17, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

No, nothing in MOS:TVCAST supports your claims of anything being "required", much less "absolutely". Softlavender (talk) 03:38, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

I won't deny the MOS could be worded better, but it still talks directly about main cast, recurring cast and guest cast lists as separate entities (see note 1 in that section), discusses the need to distinguish between the latter two, and points to The Killing (U.S. TV series) as an exemplar, which makes such distinctions. U-Mos (talk) 03:52, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Nothing in MOS:TVCAST supports your claims of anything being "required", much less "absolutely". We also have a growing consensus that only the characters whose actors change should be in a chart, if there is a chart. Softlavender (talk) 06:21, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

I won't bother to repeat myself on the first point, but please remain WP:CIVIL. On the latter point, you are quite right and at no point have I denied that. If and when that becomes a firm consensus, how to manage the remaining non-table cast list needs to be considered also. U-Mos (talk) 07:20, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

I also believe that the cast table should only be used for characters that have not had changing cast, and thus should only involve the main cast members. This would mean that the coloured templates would not be required. Nor do I believe that the headers should exist in the table; they should be listed as per MOS:TVCAST, in the order that they are listed in the series. Nor should Season 4 be added until Season 4 has been released. If such changes are made, then I could support the use of a table. -- /Alex/₂₁ 02:40, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Only for characters that have not had changing cast? The reason this is being discussed is to deal with the full-cast switch between seasons, including all of the main characters and almost certain to include concurrent character classification upgrades. U-Mos (talk) 02:49, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Alex 21, I think you mis-typed; I don't think you mean to use the word "not". Softlavender (talk) 03:03, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Apologies; you are quite correct. I believe that the cast table should only be used for characters that have had changing cast. -- /Alex/₂₁ 03:11, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

The case of characters whose actors change, and are also upgraded to main cast, remains then. Do you support that being covered in separate (full) cast lists below? And how should characters played by multiple actors be listed there? U-Mos (talk) 03:17, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Full cast list, below cast change table

As the above is leaning towards a table that illustrates the characters whose actors change only (as opposed to a full main cast table), the original question of how to order the full cast list remains. I can see these broad potential options:

Option 1: A full cast list ordered strictly per MOS:TVCAST, i.e. placing Olivia Colman below Matthew Goode and continuing from there.

Option 2: A full cast list with repeated characters placed directly below their earlier iteration, i.e. Claire Foy, Oliva Colman, Matt Smith, Tobias Menzies, Vanessa Kirby, Helena Bonham-Carter in that order.

Option 3: A full cast list merged by characters, i.e. "Claire Foy and Olivia Colman as Queen Elizabeth II" or similar.

Option 4: A full cast list, with separate sub-sections for each distinct cast, i.e. a "Seasons 1-2" section heading above the current list and a "Season 3" heading (later Seasons 3-4) below it to list Colman, Menzies et al.

Option 5: A partial cast list ("Other main cast"?), omitting those already listed in the cast change table.

My personal preference is option 4, which follows the MOS:TVCAST guidelines but uses section heading to recognise the uniqueness of this series. Any thoughts? U-Mos (talk) 02:25, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

Seems no one is interested in actually doing anything. The cast list is still outdated and for whatever reason the factual (Season 1-2) I added to the end of Foy and Smith’s entries kept getting deleted. So idk. Rusted AutoParts 21:07, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Per previous discussions, no need to do anything until season 3 is released (17 November) - but it would be very useful to have a consensus ready to implement when that time comes. Happy with a table per TheMysteriousEditor's original suggestion above to be implemented to illustrate changing cast, which leaves the question of how to list the cast in full to be decided. 5 options above up for discussion, any other suggestions welcome. @Drmargi, Willwal, Softlavender, Zuko Halliwell, and Alex 21: thoughts appreciated. U-Mos (talk) 20:36, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

The cast change table would be a helpful supplement to the cast list/character descriptions. It's important to remember this is an American show and has a massive American audience who has very little knowledge of the royal family aside from the major members of the immediate family, and knows less about Parliament and the Royal Household. The show is going to run in discrete three units with little or no cast cross-over. Once the new season begins, I'd re-label the existing character descriptions as Seasons 1-2, start a new list for Seasons 3-4 and put the table below those descriptions, or something along those lines. The recurring cast lists could do with some serious pruning; the less important recurring cast can go in a cast article. Then, once the new season starts, we'll have a better sense of how to lay out the finer points. ----Dr.Margi ✉ 23:12, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

I honestly have no idea what to do. I still think that every character who will be played by multiple actors (since there isn't too many of them) should go in a table at the beginning of the cast section, and the rest of the list should be as per standard. TheMysteriousEditor (talk) 13:03, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Character	Appearances
	Season 1 (2016)	Season 2 (2017)	Season 3 (2019)	Season 4 (2020)
The Royal Family
Queen Elizabeth II	Claire Foy Verity Russell (young)	Claire Foy	Olivia Colman
Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh	Matt Smith	Matt Smith Finn Elliot (young)	Tobias Menzies
Princess Margaret	Vanessa Kirby Beau Gadsdon (young)	Vanessa Kirby	Helena Bonham Carter
Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother	Victoria Hamilton		Marion Bailey
Louis Mountbatten	Greg Wise		Charles Dance
Prince Edward, Duke of Windsor	Alex Jennings		TBA
Wallis Simpson	Lia Williams		Geraldine Chaplin	TBA
Charles, Prince of Wales	Billy Jenkins	Julian Baring Billy Jenkins (young)	Josh O'Connor
Anne, Princess Royal	Grace and Amelia Gilmour	Lyla Barrett-Rye	Erin Doherty
Antony Armstrong-Jones		Matthew Goode	Ben Daniels
The Royal Household
Martin Charteris	Harry Hadden-Paton		Charles Edwards

References

Is this the best way forward? Have all the characters who will be played by multiple actors in one overview table, and have the rest of the cast listed as normal below as per MOS:TVCAST? TheMysteriousEditor (talk) 13:20, 22 October 2019 (UTC) Updated the above table to a more likely outcome. Discussion will be ongoing I guess. TheMysteriousEditor (talk) 18:02, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

I just reverted; please do not remove narrative character descriptions. Perhaps the best way forward is a character article which could include this table. ----Dr.Margi ✉ 11:51, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Ten months since this discussion started, two weeks since the last response, and ten days until the season is released. Is there a clear consensus for the display of the cast? -- /Alex/₂₁ 13:39, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

4 days until the season is released, there still isn't a consensus. I believe that a "List of The Crown characters" page should be created, and all that should be included on this page is the above table which shows the characters who are/will be played by multiple actors so that it is not too extensive. TheMysteriousEditor (talk) 09:39, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

An article with just a table and no prose? Definitely not. The table, definitely, but it'll at least need character listings. In my opinion, we don't even need a table, and can just continue the list as it is, except changing it to "[Character], portrayed by [Actor] (season 1-2) and [Actor] (season 3-4)". -- /Alex/₂₁ 09:51, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

It doesn't look like many people seem to care what happens. I do think solely having prose and no table might complicate things though. TheMysteriousEditor (talk) 11:45, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

Perhaps prose in this article and the table in a proper characters article? (That is, a table and further sections on the characters.) -- /Alex/₂₁ 11:51, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

I guess that works. A list of characters article for definite, and then discussions and changes can be made in the future. TheMysteriousEditor (talk) 12:08, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

Option 3 is my favourite. It's the most economical:

• Claire Foy (seasons 1–2), Olivia Colman (seasons 3–4) and Name Surname (seasons 5–6) as Queen Elizabeth II

Less space, more info in one place, straightforward. Since the cast will only change every two seasons, I don't see why having a big table full of repetitive names, at least not in the main page. Template can follow MOS until the list gets too long.--TheVampire (talk) 23:36, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

I can support that. We can even use superscript notation to cut down on the bracketed seasons, like thus:

• Claire Foy ^1–2 and Olivia Colman ^3–4 as Queen Elizabeth II

.... given that seasons 5 and 6 won't be until at least 2021/2022(/2023). We can make a note at the top of the Cast section that explains this notation. A table can then exist at List of The Crown characters, which can be expanded into a proper list article. Thoughts? -- /Alex/₂₁ 06:35, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

Actually... ^3–4 or (s. 3–4)? -- /Alex/₂₁ 11:14, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

[Return] Brackets might be less confusing since notes are usually used as references?--TheVampire (talk) 12:35, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

The superscript number have to go. They are not accessible to low-vision readers and to screen-readers. I had a couple folks check and they get garbage. Superscript numbers have a specific function in print, and devices like screen-readers will read them in a specific way if they are properly formatted; if you deviate from the formatting, they can't be read at all. So it's back to parens. I prefer a separate list for Seasons 3 and 4. It's much more orderly and easier to access more current information. ----Dr.Margi ✉ 19:43, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

Separate sections would render the list twice as long. I feel we should keep it as synthetic as possible on the main page and use something else on the future list of characters page. I agree on brackets instead of superscript, like Alex said: (s. 1–2).

You'll have the same screen-reader problems with the brackets as shown above. Stick with parens. ----Dr.Margi ✉ 23:48, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

I created my own "multi-season cast and characters" table on a whim (see below), not realizing there was an existing discussion on the matter. It was removed from the article by TheVampire who said, "just add it to a draft for a new cast article with relevant sources." I see a previous Draft:List of The Crown characters was made in February but was deleted last month. Shall I give this another go? LegoK9 (talk) 01:05, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

Character	1	2	3	4
Queen Elizabeth II (young)	Claire Foy		Olivia Colman
	Verity Russell		Verity Russell
Prince Philip (young)	Matt Smith		Tobias Menzies
		Finn Elliot
Princess Margaret (young)	Vanessa Kirby		Helena Bonham Carter
	Beau Gadsdon		Beau Gadsdon
Antony Armstrong-Jones		Matthew Goode	Ben Daniels
Prince Charles	Billy Jenkins	Billy Jenkins Julian Baring	Josh O'Connor
Princess Anne	Grace and Amelia Gilmour	Grace and Amelia Gilmour Lyla Barrett-Rye	Erin Doherty
Winston Churchill	John Lithgow
Tommy Lascelles	Pip Torrens
Duke of Norfolk	Patrick Ryecart
Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother	Victoria Hamilton		Marion Bailey
Louis, Earl Mountbatten of Burma	Greg Wise		Charles Dance
Prince Edward, Duke of Windsor	Alex Jennings		Derek Jacobi
Wallis, Duchess of Windsor	Lia Williams		Geraldine Chaplin
Martin Charteris	Harry Hadden-Paton		Charles Edwards
Michael Adeane	Will Keen		David Rintoul
Porchey	Joseph Kloska		John Hollingworth
Princess Alice of Battenberg	Rosalind Knight	Sophie Leigh Stone	Jane Lapotaire
Colin Tennant	David Shields	Pip Carter	Richard Teverson
Prince Henry, Duke of Gloucester	Andy Sanderson		Michael Thomas
Anthony Eden	Jeremy Northam
Group Captain Peter Townsend	Ben Miles
King George VI	Jared Harris
Lord Salisbury	Clive Francis
Mike Parker	Daniel Ings
Margaret "Bobo" MacDonald	Lizzy McInnerny
Master of the Household	Michael Bertenshaw
Doctor Weir	James Laurenson
Cecil Beaton	Mark Tandy
Rab Butler	Michael Culkin
Walter Monckton	George Asprey
Clarissa Eden	Anna Madeley
Johnny Dalkeith	Josh Taylor
Baron Nahum	Julius D'Silva
Mary Charteris	Jo Herbert
Norman Hartnell	Richard Clifford
Gamal Abdel Nasser	Amir Boutrous
Judy Montagu	Abigail Parmenter
Billy Wallace	Nick Hendrix	Tom Durant-Pritchard
Princess Cecilie of Greece and Denmark		Leonie Benesch
Camilla Shand			Emerald Fennell

I arranged the entire main and recurring cast into tables in the draft page. It remains to decide if we wanna list guests as well or just leave them on the single seasons' pages. I would only list the most notable but we need to decide criteria. Once we publish the page, we can remove all recurring sections in the main page and only leave main or main and featured at most.--TheVampire (talk) 14:57, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

Great, so now we have six separate table suggestions. -- /Alex/₂₁ 15:09, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

I tried to draw from all of them somehow and use colour as in List of Game of Thrones characters to help the reader decode the table easily. I think dividing the table in sections like "Royal Family" or "Staff" is a bit too much when you have wiki-links to real-life people on the side. This is not Downton Abbey.--TheVampire (talk) 15:20, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

If there is no opposition I would like to go ahead and move the draft to List of The Crown characters so people can contribute to it and discuss the way forward on that talk page. This way then, we can lighten up the cast list on the main page, leaving the main cast only under "Cast".--TheVampire (talk) 14:42, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

I have no objection to moving the table, but object to removal of all the recurring cast. The list needs thinning, bu there are some very important recurring characters, particularly among the royal household and government that should remain. ----Dr.Margi ✉ 15:25, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Awards

• Draft:List of awards and nominations received by The Crown — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rudeby88 (talk • contribs)