Talk:Sun

Unsafe conclusion in Motion and location

Under the subtitle "Motion in the Solar System"

There is an unsupported conclusion with an orphan reference. To wit: "[…] The orbits of the inner planets, including of the Earth, are similarly displaced by the same gravitational forces, so the movement of the Sun has little effect on the relative positions of the Earth and the Sun or on solar irradiance on the Earth as a function of time.[140] […]"

Checking footnote 140 reveals:

Retraction of: Scientific Reports 10.1038/s41598-019-45584-3, published online 24 June 2019 The Editors have retracted this Article. After publication, concerns were raised regarding the interpretation of how the Earth-Sun distance changes over time and that some of the assumptions on which analyses presented in the Article are based are incorrect.The analyses presented in the section entitled “Effects of SIM on a temperature in the terrestrial hemispheres” are based on the assumption that the orbits of the Earth and the Sun about the Solar System barycenter are uncorrelated, so that the Earth-Sun distance changes by an amount comparable to the Sun-barycenter distance. Post-publication peer review has shown that this assumption is inaccurate because the motions of the Earth and the Sun are primarily due to Jupiter and the other giant planets, which accelerate the Earth and the Sun in nearly the same direction, and thereby generate highly-correlated motions in the Earth and Sun. Current ephemeris calculations [1,2] show that the Earth-Sun distance varies over a timescale of a few centuries by substantially less than the amount reported in this article. As a result the Editors no longer have confidence in the conclusions presented. S. I. Zharkov agrees with the retraction. V. V. Zharkova, E. Popova, and S. J. Shepherd disagree with the retraction.

[1] Folkner, W. M., Williams, J. G., Boggs, D. H., Park, R.S. & Kuchynka, P. The Planetary and Lunar Ephemerides DE430 and DE431. "The Interplanetary Network Progress Report", Volume 42–196, February 15, 2014.

[2] JPL Horizons on-line solar system data. Horizons System

Reference: Retraction Note: Oscillations of the baseline of solar magnetic field and solar irradiance on a millennial timescale

Volume of Sun in cu mi appears to be incorrect

The volume of the Sun is shown as 1.412x10^18 km^3 and 0.887x10^17 cu mi, but these values are inconsistent. The value in km^3 is correct, but the value in cu mi should be 3.39x10^17. RCSmeas (talk) 05:23, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Removed for the time being. @RCSmeas, are you sure about 3.39? I am getting 3.38. So, maybe we need to discuss further with maths or sources. To be honest, I don't think it even needs to be in the article. I don't think cubic miles are necessarily more informative at such high values even to people who use miles instead of km. I use km and the value in cubic km is just a large number to me. Comparison with earth's volume is what's helpful even if it's just to go . Usedtobecool ☎️ 06:11, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks @Usedtobecool - I got the value of 3.39x10^17 using a conversion factor of (1.60934 km/mile)^(-3) with the stated volume of 1.412x10^18 km^3, but that second decimal is probably unwarranted in light of the uncertainty in solar radius measurements and the lack of specificity on this page about the definition of radius for a gaseous object (see, for example, the ApJ paper by Emilio et al (https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/0004-637X/798/1/48/pdf). I agree with your comment about the lack of a compelling reason for including a value for the solar volume in cubic miles, so I'm happy that you have removed the value and suggest we leave this portion of the article as it now is. RCSmeas (talk) 19:23, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

New word: Suntoid

a suntoid is a star that isn't a red dwarf or a blue giant, in other words is a yellow dwarf star like the Sun. 177.47.230.129 (talk) 02:33, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

You are the one, MOS:NEO. Usedtobecool ☎️ 04:49, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Lithium

The Sun's low lithium level is key to its stable luminosity and low large solar flare events. Yet lithium is not in the page at all. Should be added. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Telecineguy (talk • contribs) 23:58, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

References

Mode cs2

Can we somehow change the reference named "IAU2015resB3" to not use "cs2" mode, to avoid the article being in the "CS1 maint: overridden setting" maintenance category? Maxim Masiutin (talk) 20:30, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

I made the edit to remove the "cs2" mode from a citation. Maxim Masiutin (talk) 18:45, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Edit a sentence in the Life phases section of the Sun article

The word "than" should be removed from this sentence in Life phases in the Sun page.

The Sun today is roughly halfway through the most stable part of its life. It has not changed dramatically in over four billion years and will remain fairly stable for about than five billion more. Tjkarani (talk) 20:26, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Nice catch, fixed. Remsense诉 20:37, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

More emphasis on this being a hypothetical construct? ++ Concern about uncited images

When I read the article it reads very much like someone stood on the Sun and was able to do actual measurements, even though the constitution of the Sun is fairly unknown. People once believed it was a burning ball of fire, but if that were true, it would have died out really quickly, because there's no oxygen. That explains to some extent the move to nuclear fusion, but one might argue that nuclear fusion actually costs energy rather than produce it.

A viable alternative that was once brought to my attention was that the Sun is made out of an inert gas, most probably Radon. It was brought to my attention, but I have no references, sorry. The reason this explanation is so viable is as follows:

The Sun when it's a highly abrasive solvent with near perfect light absorbing and emitting qualities expends very little energy on itself and replenishes really quickly with matter and light hitting it. The Sun itself as such is very cold, because almost all of the energy it receives as matter or light is sent back out again as light into the Universe, of which only a small portion reaches the Earth, but that small portion by itself is thus big that it can heat us sufficiently.

The formation of stars out of gases provides a good first step for corroborating this theory, because in space inert gases can actually liquify and maybe even solidify due to the extreme coldness of space. Essentially the Sun isn't much different from a tube or bulb of inert gas, but without the glass container around it, and under its own gravity it's probably a lot more dense than gas in a tube or bulb. Emilehobo (talk) 14:28, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

@Emilehobo: I responded to this on your talk page. --David Tornheim (talk) 04:31, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

The clearer point has been made that many of the article's illustrations seem themselves to be uncited either in the caption or on the media page. Thoughts on this? Remsense诉 13:22, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Most of Kelvinsong's internal structure diagrams are generally in agreement with scientific consensus of the internal structures of the objects they depict, if not a bit outdated. I do agree that the lack of references is an issue, and they should be supplemented somehow -- perhaps uploading a new version with citations within the image would be helpful, similar to this newer diagram of Mars's interior?[1] ArkHyena (talk) 18:21, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure new versions are even needed, necessarily—just like text, images can be verifiable to sources they were not directly worked from. But it would be nice to have that squared away on this and potentially other FAs. Remsense诉 18:22, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

That would work too; I'll probably leave someone else to find appropriate sources for the Sun diagram, as I'm not well-versed in heliophysics. ArkHyena (talk) 19:22, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

@Remsense: Can you be more specific about which images you are concerned about? I'm not seeing anything that leaps out that is concerning. That said, I'm not familiar on the rules about use of images and/or citations for them. I also looked through the current talk page and didn't see any mention about problems for a lack of citations in images. Can you refer me to those specific discussions and any concerns raised or addressed there? --David Tornheim (talk) 06:12, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

For one example: File:Sun poster.svg used at the top of § Structure and fusion—to be clear, as stated above this is a minimal concern as the images are mainstream and obviously verifiable if not inline cited, but being cited would be nice. Remsense诉 13:32, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

I see. That image was "a featured picture, which means that members of the community have identified it as one of the finest images on the English Wikipedia, adding significantly to its accompanying article." Also it was "selected as picture of the day on the English Wikipedia for May 5, 2021."

Nonetheless, it does appear to be the work of User:Kelvinsong/User:IsadoraofIbiza rather than directly from a an independent reliable source. Is there a policy related to images that suggests a citation(s) is important or how it is properly implemented? Are there any other examples in similar articles that you are hoping we would follow here? Again, I have little familiarity with the rules around images. --David Tornheim (talk) 15:27, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

From what I understand, images are treated just like text: they make claims which may be verified in sources, which may also use various media. It may be more concrete to think in terms of maps and charts, and how they are seen as being able to make specific claims. People become confused because images are in some ways more abstract as a medium, and we primarily deal with text—but it's fundamentally no different. Just because we use one synonym over another doesn't necessarily create a distinct claim, just as use of a certain visual style for the sun's core shouldn't necessarily be treated as making a distinct claim for what is obviously an abstract diagram. I hope that makes sense.

Of course, with both prose and images it must be played by ear and carefully considered from many perspectives, but I've detected literally nothing problematic or unverifiable in the images used to illustrate this article. Remsense诉 15:44, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

It does make sense. I have always wondered. I think to address this, rather than try to pollute the caption with a bunch of refs, it might be better to make sure all of the key components in a diagram or image are mentioned/described in the text and referenced there, e.g. "The core of the Sun extends from the center to about 20–25% of the solar radius.[ref]"--completely consistent with the diagram. Are there any components of that image that are not mentioned and referenced in the text somewhere?

And it just occurred to me that that there are no doubt similar images in reliable sources that can be used as a reference too. I'm not sure exactly how that would be done to make the article and caption the most readable.--David Tornheim (talk) 18:32, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Keeping in mind what I said above—while conceding that claims are most easily stated as text for purposes of verification—I have an idea for systematically verifying complex images: I propose introducing a format where each claim an image is making is laid out in a tree structure, where citations can be attached to each. This could go in the "source" field on the image's own File: page, or bundled into a footnote.

Here's my tree for File:Heat Transfer in Stars.svg (though it is ultimately already sourced[2]):

• The interiors of stars have different mechanisms of heat transfer according to their total mass. Different layers within a star may propagate heat either by convection or by outward radiation.
  • In stars >1.5M_☉, the core is a convection zone, while the outer layers are a radiation zone.
  • In stars between 0.5 and 1.5M_☉, the core is a radiation zone, while the outer layers are a convection zone.
  • In stars <0.5M_☉, the entire interior is a convection zone.

This way, people can be more clear both about what an image is intended to say, whether it says what it intends to effectively, and whether what it says is verifiable in reliable sources. Many images will have comparatively flat trees, but I could see this being a valuable notion for, say, diagrams of the course of historical battles. Remsense诉 20:01, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

I believe we are in agreement about the nature of the multiple claims implied by the images in this article. With regard to File:Sun poster.svg, I also saw it as a list of similar claims, starting with the internal 25% the core.

I'm okay with the style of splitting out the various claims as you mention--as long as the caption is not bloated with all the claims. I would rather see the claims distributed appropriately throughout the text. As with professional texts, there could be something along the lines of "(see figure 1.0)" if the claims are not all adjacent. I can't think of any articles that have done that, so it would have to be consistent with WP:MOS.

As for putting the verification of claims in the image itself, this certainly makes logical sense. However, I don't remember seeing it done anywhere. I believe the reason it is not typically done is that these images are shared by various Wikipedias of different languages.

My guess is this must have been discussed somewhere else regarding all articles, hasn't it? If you are not aware of such a suggestion I would support raising the question in a more centralized location, proposing your suggestion there. I would be happy to participate in such a discussion.--David Tornheim (talk) 05:32, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

FAR

I feel like an FAR may be needed. This article contains unsourced text and there is a tag. The lede would also stylistically look better if the second and third paragraphs were about the size of the current fourth paragraph, but that isn't a requirement. 750h+ 15:03, 2 May 2024 (UTC)