Talk:Sonnet 73

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Can somebody please fix this article to explain the correct meaning of the ending of the sonnet, which is that in observing that people die, we recognise that we too will leave life, and it is this knowledge which leads us to love LIFE more, since we recognise that we too will soon be leaving it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.5.254.177 (talk) 10:47, 7 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Qua me alit me extinguit[edit]

That should be Quod (that which) or maybe Qui (he/she who). What's the source? —Tamfang (talk) 18:01, 15 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Tamfang: The source is, as given inline in the article, Kau 1975:

Kau, Joseph (1975). "Daniel's Influence on an Image in Pericles and Sonnet 73: An Impresa of Destruction". Shakespeare Quarterly. 26 (1). Folger Shakespeare Library: 51–53. doi:10.2307/2869269. eISSN 1538-3555. ISSN 0037-3222. JSTOR 2869269 – via JSTOR. {{cite journal}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help); Unknown parameter |subscription= ignored (|url-access= suggested) (help)

As you can see, the variants you point to are in themselves relevant here. --Xover (talk) 06:22, 16 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Commas[edit]

The 1609 first publication has a comma at the end of every line, except (for some reason) the second. Some of these are pretty well universally omitted in modern editions, but the one that often isn't omitted but probably should be is the one at the end of the third line.

With that comma, the fourth line becomes a fragment of a sentence. Quite possible, of course. But without the comma, the sense becomes slightly different: "those boughs which shake against the cold bare ruin'd choirs, where late the sweet birds sang". Perhaps three adjectives in a row is excessive, but for the autumnal image, making the choirs "cold" as well as bare and ruined certainly adds to the metaphor. I'd prefer to have my boughs shaking against ruined choirs than against the cold.

I'm fairly sure I'm not the only person to have said this, but I couldn't find an encylopedic source.Thomas Peardew (talk) 09:16, 12 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The bare boughs (line 3) are metaphorically being depicted as bare choirs (line 4). So you can’t have branches shaking against branches. Or choirs shaking against choirs. “Cold” is a noun, not an adjective: “Against the cold” is used in the sense “In anticipation of cold weather”. (The same way “against” is used at the start of Sonnet 63.) If line four is imagined to be missing the (unnecessary) words “they are”, as in “they are bare ruined choirs”, it might help to understand what’s being said. - Quarterpinion (talk) 18:03, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for taking the trouble to respond. It has been pointed out elsewhere that "bare ruined choirs where late the sweet birds sang" is yet another reference to the passing of time: to the dissolution of the monasteries which resulted in literal bare ruined choirs, and where the "sweet birds" were the vanished choristers. I find it hard to think that "ruined choirs" are metaphorically "bare boughs", while I find it very easy to see the two lines taken together as a long image of the passing of time: in Shakespeare's own lifetime the ruined church buildings dominated the landscape and were falling further into decay. As for "cold" being a noun, clearly it needs to be one if the comma is correctly placed. But if you check the OED, the only citation for the phrase "to shake against the cold" is this sonnet itself. And a search for other Elizabethan authors "shaking against the cold" (or anyone subsequently) has so far turned up no other examples. Thomas Peardew (talk) 16:01, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Just a bit about the fourth line, "Bare ruined choirs, where late the sweet birds sang"[edit]

I used to have a book about the Catholic Church in the US during the 1970s, Bare Ruined Choirs by Garry Wills, sitting on the shelf next to a science fiction novel, Where Late the Sweet Birds Sang by Kate Wilhelm. JHobson3 (talk) 12:29, 24 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The last book written by great historian of English Monasticism David Knowles, was also called Bare Ruined Choirs, but it was specifically about the dissolution of the monasteries in England by King Henry VIII: and this is probably what Shakespeare is referring to: the "sweet birds" would then have been the former choristers who sang in the abbey churches.Thomas Peardew (talk) 16:16, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]