Talk:Second Life/Archive 1

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Please add more info

Excellent experience, well beyond being "just a game". This 3D web-based environment has some powerful technology behind it. --User:Merwan Marker 22:02, Jun 24, 2004

Will somebody much more gifted in verse than I please add to this entry? Please?! --User:24.166.22.65 04:45, Jul 8, 2004

I added it to the category Category:VR Communities --Sgeo | Talk 12:50, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I removed the section talking about the SL forums. Not needed.

Vandal Checks

This page constantly needs to be watched for vandals :-(. --Sgeo | Talk 15:09, Sep 17, 2004 (UTC)

Vandals? When has this happened? --Revised 19:48, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Take a look at the recent article history. All of the edits from August 26 and September 17 were vandalism or reversion of same. Ponder 22:48, 2004 Oct 28 (UTC)

Pricing tiers

Needs information on how the pricing tiers differ.

The Pricing section looks complete to me. What more do you want to know or is this comment OBE? Awcolley 15:57, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Vanity?

Forgive me but I don't see why this page has not been deleted due to vanity content yet. More than that, this page is an ad for a quite dull product that already comes in so many flavours. It is claimed the users own property rights over their creaations. Wow, I mean, they make their creations and pay for them! Maybe because the authors are cool people from SF, right? Not in any way I would expect these type of contents to appear in any encyclopedia, and I expect wikipedia to actually adhere to higher quality standards.

Nerd.

Huh?--NeuronExMachina 02:09, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

All kinds of games have their own articles. Here's tons of similar situations:List_of_MMOGs I agree that his one deserves a page, too, as much as I am a fan of it's competitor There. -- Viridis 03:09, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

It seems to me the current version provides a fairly balanced discussion of this MMOG, and it deserves the same coverage as any other MMOG. This comment sounds like petty grousing to me.

The SL community remains large and active and I am personally aware of its use in actual sociological / anthropological / etc. research. Perhaps a section should be written devoted to that: there are a number of online articles and professional papers available for citation. -- Awcolley 16:06, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Sorry - In which way exactly the wikipedia page for second life is NOT an advertisement?

Is the entry for Wikipedia an ad for Wikipedia? This page talks as much as possible about the problems associated with it, as any page does. Something genuinely GOOD will obviously appear to be promoted by a factual account, no? 67.81.50.181 13:36, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

If this article is an advertisement, then every article on an MMO is. Don't whine about this particular article, whine about the category. 782 Naumova 15:17, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Notable Members

I think the notable members subsection should definitely be kept under a critic eye. As far as I know, all the people mentioned there as of the time of this writing have been mentioned in the press at some time or another (not sure about Chip, but it can be checked), but I don't think much time will pass before random members (or succesful but not famous, like, uhmm... me) start putting themselves over that bar of notability. So, by all means, let's keep our eyes peeled! Sarg 06:30, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

I suggest adding Prokofy Neva as the most notable "dissident" to the notable members section.

Are Barnett, Doctorow, Lessig really involved with Second Life to a degree that they should be considered "members" of that community?

The broken griefer link

Viridis just recently fixed a link that had been broken in a recent edit, arguing that "Don't break links just because you don't like the competition". While I completely agree with that, I followed said link to its source and what I found is a site that not only promotes griefing, but also puts online prizes and trophies for people who grief in this game, including player's names and other data. It is basically an online repositary of several ways to break the game's TOS. Given that, I don't think it has any place in Wikipedia. Sarg 07:38, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

IMVU?

IMVU is not competition for Second Life, and shares only but a few factors. I suggest it is removed.

I would agree. SecondLife is not simply an online chat program with avatars (as IMVU is). Awcolley 15:54, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

• HabboHotel isn't a competitor either is it? 86.133.96.174 anonymous.

I agree, neither IMVU nor Habbo Hotel are the same thing as Second Life. I'd list as competitors There and Active Worlds. So, who does the change ;) Sarg 08:30, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

I would disagree with this. To the majority of "ordinary" users SecondLife is simple an online chat program with avatars.

This is not a matter of what the platform means for a majority of users (and, anyway, I think that is just an opinion that can't be backed by solid proof). It is a matter of what the program allows you to do. In its present form you can do many different things with SL, while IMVU is just a 3D chat, with no option to do other things like There or SL are. Sarg 20:44, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi - it is a matter of what the platform means for a majority of users. The section is about competitors, and if the majority of users see SL as a chat program with avatars, then chat programs with avatars will be able to take customers away from SL, and thus they will be competitors.

Uhmmm, I see your point now, but still there is the problem that there is no reference saying what the majority of users think. In fact, what you state is completely the opposite of my personal experience, or no one would be buying my products :D I think the amount of money spent in transactions daily could be a good indicator that a majority of users are spending enough money on commodities that in no way could be obtained in IMVU. Besides, if we have to put in competitors all things that could potentially draw people away from the system, we'd have to list every other videogame in the world, starting with WoW, and then non-videogame things, like movie theatres hehehe. Sarg 09:34, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Metaverse Messenger

I'm suggesting that Metaverse Messenger be merged into here, since it is only notable on the context of Second Life and there's not much to say about it. JoaoRicardo ^talk 21:50, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

• I completely agree, and I'm one of the staff members ;) Go ahead and Be bold. Sarg 07:12, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Ok, done. :) JoaoRicardo^talk 19:11, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Profoky

Good god, this is probably contributing to her ego. Why is it that Profoky is noted for being banned from the forums, whereas other well-known griefers such as Grimmy, Celestie and Plastic are not? In which case, who added her? And what are the grounds of him being notable? He's only very well-known to forum viewers and regular participants in similar methods of communication. 782 Naumova

• Him or her?? hehe. I don't know how much money he makes by landlording. Certainly not the brutal amounts Anshe gets, but perhaps in the order of Hiro Queso? Hey, perhaps we should just ask him :)) Sarg 20:56, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Counter-criticism to point 1 (not enough to do in SL)

Out of my own experience as first-time user in SL I would like to counter the criticism "not enough to do but hang around in SL" proposed in point number 1 of criticism and issues section. Within the first 6 hours of being online (on and off visits of ca 1-3 hrs within 4 days), I was inundated by offers of help, invitations to join in activities, advice, object, script and even money presents. Besides just chatting, there was trying out of things, (funny) shoot and trap play, dance, outfit try-out sessions, and finally a visit to a dance club. Talk about sitting in a chair! I upgraded my character to a sexy girl with custom clother, hair, dance scripts, and ended up with ca 200 more linden dollars than I had started out with. And for all that, all I had to do was accept the offers, and ask for help. No one ever asked me for anything in return. I am creating a point to this effect in the main article. Iani 01:46, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi - this may have been your experience, but you are only one data point and this is by no means universal. SL's player base are very helpful to new players but people only have so much to give away - and as was pointed out by another user on the forums, giving stuff away to some people makes things worse by comparison for those who don't recieve any. Although SL's player base is growing significantly, it is nowhere near as big as the majority of MMORPG games and is still known to have retention issues, suggesting there is an enjoyment or value problem there. Camping chairs, Tringo, Money balls and other free money generators are popular and this is clearly visible throughout the world and on official sites.

However, if criticisms are presented in such an extense way as they are now, it is only logical to back them up with counter-criticisms to keep the NPOV. Of course the counter-criticisms should be properly backed up with references and proof and not based solely on personal experience. As it is now, not even all of the criticisms themselves are solid or backed by proof. Sarg 20:51, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Fair point.. that section isn't really meant to be about criticisms of the game, but about problems and issues that have arisen on the game and need to be dealt with. For example, the in-game scamming issue isn't really a problem with the game, just a behaviour point that's arisen among players. There is some concern and difficulty about what players who aren't skilled at building will have to do in the long term on Second Life, in fact Linden Labs have talked about introducing artifical unskilled work to help keep these players in the game. Can you think of a way of describing that without making it sound like a criticism?

I think the best we could do is rewrite the paragraph entirely, trying to keep it NPOV. I'd suggest using this talk page to do it and then, when everyone is happy with it, placing it in the main article. Sarg 09:36, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Rewriting the criticism section

As discussed above, the criticism section might require some tweaking to ensure NPOV and a decent coverage of the real issues. I'm copying the paragraph here. Please provide some insights and suggestions to improve this section! Sarg 09:39, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

* Linden Lab is currently being sued by attorney Marc Bragg, claiming Linden Lab defrauded him of $8,000 worth of property.

CORRECTION: This Bragg fellow essentially hacked the system to try to steal land, and then when it backfired on him and cost him money, he decided to sue. In the interest of fairness, it should be noted directly in the article, not just in the linked news story, that Bragg's actions have been described as "hacker-like", and that he was banned from Second Life for it. Anyone can be sued by anyone for anything at any time. It's not enough just to list the plaintiff's clam without also providing fair balance by equally listing the defendant's response. Chosen Few, SL Resident June 9, 2006

* The nature of roles and enjoyment in the economy: Because there are no entry-level jobs, and creating content requires the user to have real-world talent, many users find themselves with very limited amounts of money and the source of enjoyment for such users is not clear. In many cases, the most popular locations in-world are those with "camping chairs" which pay users a small amount just for sitting on them (funded from the money paid by Linden Lab to the owners of popular areas).

This one and several other paragraphs in this section should be merged in a single paragraph criticising some aspects of SL economy. As it is now it is clear that many different people with a very sparse knowledge of economy (and probably frustrated with it in SL...) have edited the section. Sarg 08:13, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

The fact that people exist who feel frustrated with it is itself a criticism: saying their points are invalid is like saying that bad reviews of a movie don't count, because they're only written by people who don't like the movie. Hyphz 20:23, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

CORRECTION: In point of fact, there are a great many entry level jobs available in Second Life. For example, club owners often hire dancers, escourts, etc. to enhance the social atmosphere of their establishments. The only requirement for such jobs is a basic familiarity with the world, and a friendly personality. Fashion designers often hire models for "photoshoots" or "fashion shows", the only requirement for which is the ability to put on an outfit. Also, as was mentioned, people have even been paid by land owners for such mundane tasks as sitting in chairs (in order to increase the perceived traffic on the land). A quick visit to Second Life's Help Wanted forum reveals dozens upon dozens of jobs advertized, many of which require no skill at all. That is the very definition of "entry level". Granted, not all of these jobs are ones that everyone would want, and some of them are even seen as detrimental to the world's development (camping chairs) but to claim they don't exist at all is inacurate at best, and easily could be described as a lie at worst. It's certainly not encyclopedic. It's very irresponsible.

As for the "source of enjoyment for such users is unclear" line, maybe it's unclear to the original author, but again, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Clearly, those people ARE enjoying SL or they wouldn't be there. Certainly money is not the only "source of enjoyment" in the world. To imply that money is such a necessity in Second Life is again very irresponsible. It's simply not true.

To use myself as an example, I was enjoying SL on a daily basis for months before I ever decided to open a business in it. I didn't have any money inworld back then, but I didn't care. I've never had a need for it, other than to upload textures. I've been in Second Life 2.5 years, and I can count the amount of items I've ever bought on one hand. Money isn't what makes it enjoyable. If the original author can't see any other "source of enjoyment" other than money, I weep for him/her. Chosen Few, SL Resident June 9, 2006

* The role of the in-world currency: Linden Lab have been criticised for at once marketing SL as a viable business channel for making real money, while at the same time including provisions in the Terms of Service which give Linden Dollars no legal value, so that (for instance) Linden Lab are not required to pay any compensation if they are lost from the database.

This is a constant in all similar products. It would belong to an article about the criticisms of TOSs, not here. Sarg 08:13, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Most other MMORPG-type products don't market themselves as a viable channel for making real world money. Hyphz 20:23, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

But those don't have any potential at all for RL profit 67.81.50.181 13:53, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

CORRECTION: First, it's not the TOS that makes Linden Dollars are valueless. It's the law. Linden Lab is not a bank, and only banks can create money. For Linden Lab to attempt to do so would be highly illegal. Linden Dollars are a product, and that's all they are.

Second, whether or not virtual inworld currency has real world currency value has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not one can make real money in Second Life.

For a comparison, Parker Brothers has made millions of real world dollars selling Monopoly money, but that doesn't mean Monopoly money has value as currency. Monoploly money is a product, just like Linden Dollars. Now, one might say it's different because Parker Bothers doesn't promote playing Monopoly as a way to make money. Of course, that's totally irrelevant, but for the sake of argument, let's assume for a moment that they were to start doing that. Let's say they decided to market Monopoly as a business opportunity the same way Linden Lab markets Second Life as such. What would they actually be doing?

Well, the first thing they'd have to do would be to suggest to you that you trade goods and services for Monopoly money, and that you then sell your accumulated Monopoly money for real money. Each time you traded something for Monopoly money, you'd be bartering, which is exactly what you do every time you trade something for Linden Dollars in Second Life. You're trading one product for another. No money has changed hands yet.

Now, when you sell that Monopoly money for real cash, your business now has income for the first time. The Monopoly money itself is still inherently worthless as currency, of course, but as a product it does have some value, whatever you just sold it for. It's the same with Linden Dollars. When we sell Linden Dollars for cash, we're selling the product we aquired from our inworld Second Life bartering. That doesn't make Linden Dollars currency. They're just a product we've aquired that we're then selling to someone else who feels they're worth buying. That's it.

Now, let's say this thing takes off, and lots of people start trading stuff for Monopoly money. Would Parker Brothers then all of a sudden have some kind of obligation to back Monopoly money with real cash? Of course not. Regardless of what it may be worth to those who choose to buy it, it's still technically valueless, and Parker Brothers doesn't owe anything to anyone just because they happen to be the manufacturer of a product that people like to buy.

Linden Lab has no such obligations either. Just because you might feel that your Linden Dollars are worth some made-up amount of money doesn't mean they actually are. They're worth whatever someone wants to pay for them at the time they decide they buy them, and that's it. To Linden Lab, they're worth nothing, and that's all there is to it. They have no obligation to buy back their product from you, ever. Just because they like to talk about SL as a business opportunity doesn't change that. One has nothing to do with the other. Chosen Few, SL Resident June 9, 2006

* The effect of changes made by SL's developers upon the in-world economy: Certain changes made or proposed by the developers have had the effect of creating new markets, but also have on occasion destroyed or removed the value of existing ones, or given the market leader at a particular (often arbitrary) time unique advantages that entrench them as a market leader in the future, thus creating a coercive monopoly.

EXPANSION: For the sake of neutrality in an encyclopedic article, it's important to point out that this is no different than what happens in real life all the time. The world changes. Sometimes some people are positioned to benefit from such changes; other times people lose out. There's no right or wrong in that.

For a comaparison, consider for a moment the humble buggy whip manufacturer, an example often cited in economics classes. Making the whips that carriage drivers used to control horse teams with was a viable industry for centuries. Then the automobile came along, and all those buggy whip businesses were gone withing just a few short years. Their product was obsolete; their niche no longer existed. Those that could adapt to making other products to fill other niches survived, and those that couldn't simply went out of business. History is filled with countless examples of this type of thing. It's just the way of the world.

The exact same thing happens in SL. Let's say I create a product that fills a certain niche in SL. I'll do well for as long as that niche exists. When the world changes to eliminate that niche, however, I'll have to change too or else I'll be left behind. That kind of change is inevitable, no matter what particular niche we're talking about. Sooner or later, everything becomes obsolete. You either change with the times and adapt what you're doing to fit the current state of the world, or you go extinct. Again, there's no right or wrong in it; it's just the way the world works. Whether it's the real world or a virtual one like SL, the same universal laws of economics and evolution apply. Chosen Few, SL Resident June 9, 2006

* Favoritism: A few users have insinuated that a particular group of people, usually referred to as the "FIC" (Feted - or Fetid - Inner Core), use their connections with Linden Lab staff to trigger policy changes that are beneficial to their own businesses at the expense of others. However, a majority of users criticize the supporters of this idea as irrational and paranoid.

This is nowadays more of an inhouse joke in the platform's forums, with no real impact on it whatsoever. And certainly, non-encyclopedic. Sarg 08:13, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

* The balance between users' ability to edit the world and their ability to damage or disrupt it: Second Life has been attacked several times by groups of users abusing the creation tools to create objects that infinitely reproduce, eventually overwhelming the servers.

This is true and should be expanded, citing the last measures Linden Lab has taken to avoid it. Sarg 08:13, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

* The land sales system: Building any permanent in-world object requires the purchase of land and an increased monthly subscription. A number of people deliberately "play" the land market for profit, leaving other people who just want to build resentful of being forced to pay extra money to a middle man. Also, the high monthly charges have resulted in buildings being focused on those which can make money in-world, reducing the variety available.

ABSURD! Who cheats the land market??? Quotes and references! Land selling and renting are perfectly valid (and legal) ways of earning money. People rent properties all the time, too. And if you just want to build ask a friend to put your build in their land. The part about buildings being too focused is true, but the part about reducing the variety is false. Too much space in the grid :) Sarg 08:13, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

The point isn't "cheating" - the point is that as long as people are doing business reselling land, people who buy land for other reasons (like say, just to build on) have to pay prices that are not the best available. It is generally considered that LL created this situation by limiting their own land sales to entire servers, which are too big and expensive for most pure builders to obtain. Hyphz 20:23, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

* Lack of zoning: With minor exceptions, Linden Lab has not placed any zoning or content restrictions on what land owners can place on their real estate. This has resulted in a wide variety of architectural variations, frequently with mixed success. Part of the problem concerns the amount of activity/resources from objects on business property causing lag for neighbors of that area that use it more of a personal manner. (example: a business property could use objects that take up a lot of loading/rendering time or communicating with the servers, thus causing lag for others that may not be on the same property but nearby due to the nature of Second Life and everything in a certian distance must load "in case" you are planning on visiting that area.) The lack of zoning is also a prime target for graffiti, deliberately obstructive and/or offensive content with the intent of defacing the local view. Such proneness to vandalism has been leveraged on occasion as a low-level form of extortion, destroying the quality of the local view in an attempt to force neighbors to buy the offending parcel of land at greatly overpriced value.

CORRECTION: First, the phrase "variety of variation" is grammatically nonsensical.

Second, this is in direct contrast to the previous point, which claimed that buildings in Second Life lacked variation. It can't be both ways. It's either widely varied or it's not. Which is it? I would submit that it's the former, since all one has to do is spend a few minutes in Second Life to see first hand that there is tremendous variety in the things people choose to build. There will always be those who copy others, of course, but for the most part, every build as unique as the person who built it.

Third, the claim that objects on business property somehow cause more lag than objects on non-business property is wholly false. It can't be denied that a busy club with a lot of people in it can be taxing on the server, which can be disruptive to neighbors in the same region, but that has nothing to do with objects. Generally speaking, all objects take the same amount of "loading/rendering time or communicating with the servers" regardless of whether they're for business or personal use. The things that cause a lot of lag are badly written scripts and overuse of big textures. Both of these are equally prevelent in business builds and personal builds.

Fourth, with regard to the graffiti issue, yes, there are a few malicious people in SL who like to build obnoxious things in order to try to force their neighbors to buy their land, but that has nothing to do with zoning. Zoning wouldn't solve this problem in any way. No matter what rules might be implimented, there will always be those will walk the line between what's allowed and what they can get away with, and such people always find ways to annoy others if they can. How about changing this to put the "criticism" where it belongs, squarely on the people themselves, instead of blaming "lack of zoning"? Chosen Few, SL Resident June 9, 2006

* Land cost: SL real estate is seen as expensive and very limited in terms of primitive count and size, considering the in-game (and real-world) cost associated with land ownership.

CORRECTION: This is subjective, and very non-encyclopedic. How about at least changing this to say "seen by some" instead of just "seen", which implies "seen by all"? In fairness, there are many who see the prices as reasonable, and many others who see them as inexpensive. There are also many who see land size and primitive counts as not "very limited". Chosen Few, SL Resident June 9, 2006

* The Mac version is just a port of the PC version, so no matter what Mac is using it, it will never match the PC version in terms of graphics. Some people have petitions, but none are big enough to make Linden Labs make a Mac version to take full use of the resources. While some of the Alpha Builds of the Universal client are available and make better use of the Mac's system, some users have still noticed a difference.

EXPANSION: This is true of virtually all video games, and similar applications. The biggest drawback to the Mac has always been its relative isolation compared to the PC. If you happen to like the Mac, great. There's nothing wrong with it. I'm not personally a huge fan of it, but that's just me. In any case, like it or not, most computer applications are written for Windows first. A great many games and game-like apps don't even have a Mac version at all. SL does though, and by all accounts it works very well. Chosen Few, SL Resident June 9, 2006

* Adult content on SL. It has been complained that while the Adult version of SL can contain mature content (swearing, nudity, etc). It has started to get associated as being wildly associated with sexual based "jobs" and the sheer amount of sex-based entertainment that occurs in Second Life in comparision to more of a PG Based content of some other "Free form" MMORPGs. As well as the ease of crossing over from a "PG" zone to a "Mature" zone for those who may or may not want to get involved in that kind of entertainment.

CORRECTION: As with the earlier "variety of variation", the phrase "associated as being associated with" is nonsensical. Also, the last statement is not a complete senetence, so its meaning is very unclear. At the very least, this should be corrected to follow the established conventions of the written English language.

Moving past the grammar and on to the actual topic, yes, some people in SL choose to create sexually oriented content for it, but it is not clear in any way how the mere mention of this is a criticism. I don't know if it's really true that Second Life users create more of it than users of other online worlds, but if so, it could easily be argued that that's nothing more than a testament to the fact that Second Life allows more creative freedom than do the others. People like what they like, and lots of people like sex. In any kind of free system, people will always bring it in. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, so what's the criticism?

To each his own though, and if one does't like sex, there are tons and tons of areas in Second Life where one can avoid it. It's not allowed in the PG regions, of which there are many, and even in the mature sims it's not as universally prevelent as the original author seems to be trying to imply. I happen to live in a mature sim, surrounded by a dozen other mature sims, and I hardly see it. If one sees it everywhere one looks, I would submit that it's because one is looking for it. It's called self-fulfilling prophesy, and it works every time. Perhaps the author should read The Crucible some time. If one goes out looking for witches to burn, one will always find them.Chosen Few, SL Resident June 9, 2006

* In-world scams: Several scams have been sighted in-world, such as people buying small areas of land in public areas, placing ugly objects on them to deface the view from everyone else's adjoining land or block the view of their structures, and then selling the land for extremely high prices.

True, but should be renamed and perhaps expanded to include a little "rant" about freedom of expression, which is the main issue. Scams happen in all places, not just Second Life. Sarg 08:13, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

* Suspended and banned accounts: Some people have alleged that enforcement of the TOS and behaviour policies by Linden Lab staff is arbitrary and selective; in particular, that users who own large amounts of land (and thus pay larger subscriptions) are able to get away with more since there would be a greater financial loss in barring them.

Another conspiracy theory with little impact anywhere (though with a shade of truth). Sarg 08:13, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Am I allowed to add here ? ... I find this incorrect as far as I am concerned as I have personally owned up to a full region paying 195 per month to SL and then taking myself down to 125 per month and then 75 per month and then back up to 125 per month on and on so I consider myself a high paying customer of SL and I have put some thousands of real dollars into SL just since I joined this past October and I have lost some thousands in SL too as I do not have SL coming to help me when I have had problems I have reported and have sent in many screenshots of proof that are TOS violations leaving me with no choice but to dump my land at a big loss to me and move to another area to get away from the violators. SO if SL is partial then I wonder why they were partial to the lesser paying ones when it came to my needing some help from them. I just found this portion inaccurate so making sure it is said that no not every high paying customer of SL can get away with anything nor can they get any help against those abusing the rules and with that causing the higher paying customer to lose a lot of money. Cherry

Hi Cherry :) Of course you can contribute with your experiences. Such is the great nature of the Wiki :) I think the person who wrote this paragraph was talking about super-paying customers (people like Anshe who pay thousands of dollars every month...) but you raise a real criticism point that I hadn't thought about and should be added to the revised version: LL is right now terribly understaffed to attend the growing population (I think there is even a quote somewhere from one of their employees, I gotta dig it out :) Sarg 07:48, 10 February 2006 (UTC)