Talk:Scottish Americans/Archive 1

Archive 1

All people immigrate from scotland to west are not Scottish people

Beleive this. So remove black scottish people from scottish list. They are not scottish people. Not good to read on internet like that on Internet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.46.31.191 (talk) 13:59, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Sectarianism rears its ugly head

Prejeduce against Roman Catholics was not such a widespread fact of life in 18th century Scotland. Although Catholics in Scotland as in England were a silent minority!! It was only in the 19th century when economic migrants from both the North and South of Ireland came to Glasgow in particulary did sectarianism rear its ugly head! Many Scots viewed the Irish whether Ulster or Southerners to be strike breakers!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.41.129.105 (talk) 02:57, 25 November 2009 (UTC) There has been Scottish catholic emigrates to North America, Flora MacDonald is one of the many Jacobites fled to North Carolina and Maryland. You can't argue all Scottlish immigrants where protestant obviously the vast majority were, but it's very hard to believe that all were protestant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.213.30.155 (talk) 20:28, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Until Irish immigration in the nineteenth century Roman Catholics were a tiny minority in Scotland, even in the Highlands. Most Scottish Jacobites were Espicolians who simply opposed exclusion of a Roman Catholic from the throne. They believed they were upholding the law of succession. That didn't make them Roman Catholics. Flora MacDonald was a practising Presbyterian. (See Hugh Douglas, 'MacDonald, Flora (1722–1790)', Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, Oxford University Press, 2004.) Lachrie (talk) 08:52, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Scotland Portal

I totally agree prejeudice against Catholoics is an unfortunate side effect of immigration into Scotland from Ulster and Ireland and certinally was not a factor in the 18th Century!!. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.41.129.105 (talk) 02:49, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

The Scotland Portal is now up and running. It is a project in the early stages of development, but I think it could be a very useful resource indeed, perhaps more for general readers (the vast majority I presume), rather than committed editors, who may be more attracted by the great possibilities of the notice board format: Wikipedia:Scottish Wikipedians' notice board.

Give it a Watch, and lend a hand if you can. It is (hopefully) fairly low-maintenance, but if we run with the "News" section, that will take dedication: time which I cannot commit to presently myself. Most other boxes need replacment/update only weekly, fortnightly, or monthly, plus the occasional refreshment of the Scotland-related categories. Anyway, I assume this is how the other Portals are run, so we can follow their lead.

Please add the following code - {{portal|Scotland}} - to your own User page, and you will have the link to the portal right there for easy access. I will investigate how other portals use shortcuts too.

Assistance from Wikipedians in the rest of the world would be greatly appreciated!--Mais oui! 09:14, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Moved this opinionated text from the article to the talk page:

Disclaimer: in the United States, the overwhelming majority of persons said to have Scottish ancestry are somewhat more accurately "Scotch-Irish". This distinction is important, since this group descends from settlers deriving from the borderlands of both Scotland and England. Indeed the entire region from Edinburgh south to Newcastle was originally united to the kingdom of Northumbria and consisted of Anglo-Saxons. To be certain whether any named individual has actual Scottish ancestry or not, genealogical research is absolutely necessary.

Failing that, if the person has an English last name, one can be sure that he has an English ancestor.

Further, no verifiable evidence of ancestry and genealogy is provided for each of the above names.

Use at your own risk!

The Southern Uplands of the Border country were still inhabited by Gaelic-speaking populations in the late Middle Ages, and it's not particularly accurate or helpful to describe Lowlanders as Anglo-Saxons either. Germanic-speakers did settle on both sides of the border, but northern England was also inhabited by Celtic-speaking Britons, and from the start Scottish identity was more political than ethnic or linguistic. Lachrie (talk) 09:24, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Mel

Aren't there two small problems with characterising Mel Gibson as a "Scottish" "American"? (As opposed to, US-born person with some unspecified degree of Scots ancestry.) I think similar threshold/identification concerns might be raised about many on this list, in fact. Alai 18:18, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Michael Douglas

I have removed Michael Douglas from the list as his father Kirk Douglas was born Issur Danielovitch in Amsterdam, New York to Herschel Danielovitch and Bryna Sanglel, Belarusian Jewish parents. The family only took a western name so they would fit into American society better. Therefore they cant be classified as Scottish Americans.

Thats fair enough. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Myself0101 (talk • contribs) 14:54, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Ulster Scots

"Scottish Americans are closely related to Scots-Irish Americans, also called Ulster-Scots, who in the US are treated as part of a common ethnic group. The Ulster-Scots originally came from the lowlands and border country of Scotland before migrating to Ulster, and hence to North America"

Scots, Scots-Irish, Welsh and English are part of a common ethnic group and genetically so are the Irish. This paragraph should be amended as it's stating something both misleading and redundant. The Ulster-Scots are actually descendants of people from the Scottish lowlands and the north of England. Enzedbrit 21:56, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

True, the Scots/Ulster-Scots, Welsh and English are part of a larger British supra-ethnic grouping, but they are by no means part of the same specific ethnic group. This whole article however needs proper referenceing and seems mainly to be from someone's original research. I do need to stress here though that the Irish are ethnically not considered British, and thesmelves especially do not conisder as such (and most would also take great offence at such). If your basing from genetic studies, which again are limited and inconclusive, the Irish do in fact differentiate from the other peoples of Britain and share as much, if not more, commonality with the Basques (especially those with origins from the west of the island). It needs to be noted that such genetic similarities do not necessarily indicate recent historical lineages or links between the peoples and this especially makes sense with regards to the Basques. Epf 04:38, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Whatever the Irish have in common with the Basques, the British will have this too albeit in a more diluted form since they received far more migration than did the Irish. The paragraph in question needs to be changed as what it is saying is irrelevant. It's like saying you live nextdoor to one neighbour but not the other. Scots moved to Northern Ireland, English moved to Northern Ireland, Scots moved to England, English moved to Scotland, Irish moved to Northern Ireland, Scotland and England. How though do English and Scottish remain distinct but Scots-Irish stay so close? It's quite fanciful. Also, I've never heard the term Scots-Irish used in Britain. I think this is a very American classification.Enzedbrit 10:37, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

The term Scots-Irish (or Scotch-Irish) is used in Ulster, although the term Ulster-Scots is used far more, especially in UK statistics. 69.157.126.88 02:58, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that might just be the case but you have added the piece back in and said the edit was 'unexplained'. That is not true because it is debated here above and also given on the edit summary. The piece, I have removed because it states something confusing. The Scottish people being closely related to Ulster-Scots or Scots-Irish, whichever term, why is it there? The 'relationship' between ethnic groups as profiled in articles on Wikipedia at best is frought with so much speculation and contention. On what is it based that these groups are closely related? Why state this and omit more obvious other relationships between the peoples on the same isle? The paragraph serves no purpose. The Scots-Irish/Ulster-Scots were also sond by many migrants from the north of England. To rely on the name of the group of these people as a recommendable source of their heritage shows a flaw in research. Enzedbrit 08

51, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

• I have again removed what I consider a rubbish paragraph. Scots-Irish are thus because they recognise their descent from migrants to Ulster from Northern England and Scotland. To say that they're closely related to Scottish people makes no sense. They are as equally related to all British and Irish people. There will be no blood similarity to Scottish people that they don't share with English or Irish as most of indigenous Britons and Irish people are majority aboriginal, of the same stock. The Scots-Irish share no cultural pecularity with Scotland that is unique and distinguishes itself from the rest of the British Isles. Any implied ultra-kinship with Scotland would have to be farce or a form of ethnic nationalism, the best way that I can describe it.Enzedbrit 09:14, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

"Scottish Americans are closely related to Scots-Irish Americans" By that logic would Scottish Americans not also be closely related to Irish Americans? What about the Dal Riada or the fact that A lot of planters in Ulster were also English and spent over two hundred years heavily intermarrying with the native population in Ulster. Or the fact that the founding tribe of Scotland - The Scotti - came from Ireland? Or that Scotland's Highland culture, Whiskey and Gaelic language came from Ireland? When they immigrated to America they identified themselves as Irish. Not Scots-Irish or Ulster-Scots. No ammount of sectarian lies and myth building will ever change that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.145.46.117 (talk) 18:53, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

list of people

I removed the list of people from this article, for the 2nd time, and placed it in the 'List of Scottish Americans' article where it belongs. Why: because every other article in this category 'Ethnic groups in the United States' does not have a list of people. Lists are only to be found in the 'Lists of American people by ethnic or national origin' category. There is no reason that the Scottish people articles or categories should have any special treatment. Questions? Read the articles and categories. Thanks Hmains 23:28, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

List of people II

I replaced the list of people into this article. Why? Because it is an article which is quite self contained. Please refrain from deleting this list in future. Whether or not other groups in the United States have lists or not is completely irrelevant, not about special treatment. Questions? This article is not a clone of any others and there are no rules governing such. Cheers.

81.158.173.141 12:33, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Figures

"In the 2000 Census, 10.9 million Americans reported Scottish ancestry, 10.7% of the total US population. Given Scotland's population (just over 5 million), there are almost as many Scottish Americans as there are native Scots living in their home country."

Might be missing something here but I'm not sure these figures add up. The US census in 2000 gave a population of around 281 million, so 10.9 million would be only 3.9% of the population. Also 10.9 million is clearly twice the population of Scotland rather than 'almost as many'.

Freelancescientist 16:37, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Not sure where these figures come from ... the 2000 Census reports that '4.8 million Americans' self-reported Scottish ancestry, 1.7% of the total US population & another 4.3 million self-reported Scots-Irish ancestry (a group which includes the descendents of English migrants to Ulster), for a total of 9.2 million Americans self-reporting some kind of Scottish descent.

General Depth and Quality of the Entry

As a proud Scot, I'd love to know that our Heritage was depicted fully on Wikipedia, particularly in this field of Scottish American, as it does dishearten me a great deal when so many of my friends and colleagues (American and Canadian) tell me out of the blue "you'll never guess what, I did my family tree and I am Scots not Irish". "Well" I say "Did you realise that so many Scots stopped off in Ireland before continueing to America, that when asked on arrival where they had come from, they naturally said Ireland"

Of course I don't expect Wikipedia to fix this historical anomoly but I would like the articles to make reference to this and many other cultural and historical facts.

When I look at the Irish American listing, it is wonderful. It has images, in depth text and a depth and quality the Scots American listing could only dream about. Just look at the index and compare it to ours.

Contents 1 Immigration to America 1.1 Scots-Irish 1.2 Catholics 1.3 Occupations 2 Discrimination and prejudice 3 Stereotypes and images 4 Irish settlement in the South 5 Sense of heritage 6 Irish in politics and government 6.1 Presidents of Irish Descent 7 Contributions to literature and the arts 8 Popular culture 9 See also 10 References 10.1 General Surveys 10.2 The Catholic Irish 10.3 The Protestant Irish 11 External links 11.1 Communities

So come on you proud Scottish Americans and Ulster Scots for that matter, lets fill in some of the blanks and give our proud heritage the publicity it deserves. Of course I will do as much as I can from over here, but strictly speaking I'm plain old Scottish, so may not have the correct culture perspective. What we need is to hear from our friends in America and Canada to get the full picture of the culture and heritage of those with strong Scottish roots. Slainte Mhath

Scottish African American

"Afro" is a prefix for African. If Black Americans feel they have more in common with Scottish culture then with West African cultures (saomething I wouldn't disagree with) then they should stop calling themselves "Afro" American. It is insulting to African people that they use a term intended to describe our continent, wear our hairstyles etc. yet have the audacity to disassociate themselves from us. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.92.233.245 (talk) 21:13, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

"Gallery" vandalism

Hi

This article has recently been targeted by a series of anonymous IP editors, intent on adding images and, in particular, a gallery. All the IPs resolve to Opal Telecom and I believe that the IPs are all one editor - the indefinitely banned troll Nimbley6.

Apart from the constant ISP (Opal Telecom), other "tells" are an obsession with Scottish topics, images, and sub-headings. I've given up warning Nimbley6 or even listing its ever-changing IPs; I am simply reverting on sight.

Please let me know if I step on any toes - I'm happy to remove pages from my ever-growing watchlist.

Cheers, This flag once was red^propaganda_deeds 06:50, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Someone keeps on removing the stuff about black Scottish Americans too.--94.116.138.60 (talk) 15:46, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Stop doing anything else

as you know it all, Bill Clinton is Primarly of Irish extraction, so the seious persons never will seeing Clinton in a wrong category any rejections will be posted here thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.249.53.77 (talk) 18:15, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Fallacy of Scottish American Ethnicity

The Scots are not a race of people, the Scots are not defined as a race of people through anthropology, or Scots Law and European statute. The Scots are seperated by geography, behaviour, culture, community, kinship etc. These are ethnic traits that are NOT shared by Americans.

Americans are NOT ethnically scottish; An American with scottish ancestors is White American by ethnicity. And yes White American is an actual ethnicity.

78.144.165.216 (talk) 18:02, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

And you're confusing skin colour with ethnicity.

"An American with scottish ancestors is White American by ethnicity."

Like Colin Powell, Barack Obama, Malcolm X? --MacRusgail (talk) 21:53, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm very confused. My friends with German ancestors are allowed to be German-Americans. My friends with Hungarian ancestors are allowed to be of ethnic Hungarian descent. Why then, with direct Scottish ancestry on both the paternal and maternal lines, am I not allowed to be a Scottish-American? `174.100.185.46 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 03:07, 30 June 2010 (UTC).

Black Scottish Americans

So who keeps on removing black Americans from the gallery, and why? The assumption that all Scottish Americans are white is rubbish.--MacRusgail (talk) 21:48, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Removed again! Please can someone address this.--MacRusgail (talk) 19:41, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Reliable sources

Contributors should review Wikipedia:Reliable sources to determine what a valid citation for an encyclopedic entry is. It would also appear to be helpful for editors to take a particular look at what Peer review means, as required under "Wikipedia:Reliable sources." Shoreranger (talk) 17:23, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

“What they [the Scots-Irish] have not ever really commanded is the respect of the elite classes, or acknowledgment for what they have contributed to our history. Webb's book should rectify that.”— Brandon Bosworth, The American Enterprise 16/5 (July-August 2005): p55(2).

“Webb's ability to weave his own personal memories as well as the history of his family into the book certainly ... keeps the entire book highly interesting, informative, and compelling. Perhaps the author's greatest contribution in writing this book is the insight he provides into the routinely unheralded Scots-Irish culture ... Without question, Webb has done a superb job in weaving together facts and anecdotal accounts in a story-telling fashion ...”— Colonel James R. Oman, Chairman, Department of Command, Leadership, and Management, US Army War College. Parameters 35/4 (Winter 2005): 144(2).

“Webb has done his reading (his varied sources include both classical works and one of his novels), but a trained historian would be more guarded in his conclusions.” Robert Moore, Library Journal 129/15 (Sept 15, 2004): p69(1).

Webb is among other things a practising journalist. His history received many notices in the media, mostly positive in tone. The fact that it received mixed reviews in recognised academic journals doesn’t preclude it from being cited here as a source, especially in the absence of an immediate alternative. There’s room for disagreement of historical opinion even among academics, and none of the academic reviewers sought to challenge Webb on demography. If we applied the same extraordinarily severe criteria consistently most of the content of Wikipedia would have to be removed, and it would be wrong to single this article out in a capricious way on the basis of such a double standard. 59.101.138.52 (talk) 19:30, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

In order to avoid a Wikipedia:Edit war and per the Wikipedia:Three revert rule a Wikipedia:Third opinion has been requested. Shoreranger (talk) 20:10, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Statements in the infobox are already sourced in the main text. If an editor knows how to reference text twice to avoid any need to duplicate entries in the notes section at the bottom of the page, please make the change to prevent further spurious attacks of this kind. Lachrie (talk) 20:22, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

We do need to find more and better sources, but the heavy-handed approach here seems over the top. Lachrie (talk) 20:27, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Consistency in reporting population figures

There is some inconsistency in the way population figures are reported. In the census for 2000, 4.3 Million US citizens self reported Scottish ancestory, whereas the figures quoted in the info-box cite 20-25 Million. Compare that to the English American info box where the 2000 Census figure is used (not the true estimated population of around 80+ Million). Is there a standard that should be followed - perhaps have the census figures & the estimated 'true' figure?

Unfortunately the lack of systematic research precludes the adoption of such a standard, as bogus, but the census figure is recognized in the peer-reviewed literature to be grossly misleading, and displaying it without any qualification in a summary box as if it were authoritative it is obviously giving it undue weight. 59.101.159.113 (talk) 11:09, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Seth MacFarlane?

MacFarlane is of Scottish, English, and Welsh descent according to the article on him. What makes him a "Scottish American"? Does he identify himself as one? Plus, I don't see what makes MacFarlane so notable. There are dozens of very notable American people with a more considerable amount of Scottish ancestry. I think he should be replaced. --John of Lancaster (talk) 17:37, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Here's an interview from him talking and not denying his ancestry. interview. and a video interview hevsays so, I do think he noticeable since hhe has created one of the most famous animation series on tv. YouTube

The "Presidents" seciton needs some fundemental re-evaluation

The premise that Scotch/Scots-Irish are Scottish does not appear to be defensible from any scholorship I am aware of. The Scotch-Irish immigrated to the US from Ireland, and therefore are Irish. The English settled what is now the United States from England, not from Saxony or Anglia, so they are English, for example. As the section is written now, it appears indefensible. Shoreranger (talk) 01:48, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

How are Scotch-Irish not Scottish? Were the Scots who settled in Ulster any less Scottish than the Scots who settled in North America? Both groups were from Scotland, so Americans with Scotch-Irish ancestry can trace their ancestry to Scotland. The article defines Scottish Americans as "citizens of the United States whose ancestry originates wholly or partly in Scotland", so they fit the criteria. --John of Lancaster (talk) 08:23, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Andrew Carnegie

Andrew Carnegie should be referenced in the article. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 20:29, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Proposal to ban user-created montages from Infoboxes

You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Ethnic_groups#Infobox_Images_for_Ethnic_Groups. Bulldog123 09:38, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Craig Ferguson

If you're going to have a questionably Scottish person like Seth MacFarlane, a more appropriately Scottish American would be Craig Ferguson. Craig Ferguson should definitely be put on the montage of Scottish Americans in place of Seth MacFarlane. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.236.9.17 (talk) 14:27, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Devine article: "The Scots who left: Why America has a new found love for all things Scottish"

Article by historian Tom Devine:

• The Scots who left: Why America has a new found love for all things Scottish, The Scotsman, 25 August 2011

--Mais oui! (talk) 11:07, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

File:Scottish-Americans.JPG Nominated for Deletion

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Albannich Amgierifwegregs or whatever

This article is very American. And by that I mean there is only the Scottish Gaelic version of words Scottish American and there is no Scots version, even though most Scottish Americans are descended from Lowlanders and therefore their ancestors would have spoken SCOTS and not Scottish Gaelic, but in typical American fashion I guess the guy who wrote this article thought the only native Scottish language was Gaelic even though more Scottish people speak Scots than Scottish Gaelic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.241.250.239 (talk) 07:28, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Footnotes

The numbering on the footnotes is muddled. This needs resolving by someone who has the time — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.50.181.38 (talk) 08:05, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Cuisine: More on actual food, less on personal contributors who happen to be Scottish

The section about "Cuisine" in this article needs to focus more on the actual foods that were brought here by Scottish Americans, as well as enjoyed by the American people in general; that is, having less to do with people that happen to be Scottish and "helped to define the modern American diet by creating many leading food brands," yet which do not necessarily even relate to actual Scottish cuisine or foodstuffs. If the writers think it's significant to mention these people, then perhaps they should be listed under a section about famous Scottish American people or something similar thereof, but not under a section that's supposedly about Scottish-American "Cuisine." For example, it's said herein that "Glen Bell, founder of Taco Bell in 1962, introduced Mexican food to a mainstream audience"; but, which is contestable in places at the border states of California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas, where such influences were already largely prevalent, given the history and heritage of those states. Moreover, this should seemingly be regarded as Bell's so-called contribution to Mexican cuisine in the U.S., not his contribution to Scottish-American cuisine. The same should be regarded of "marketing executive Arch West, born to Scottish immigrant parents, developed Doritos[42]." The relevance here is questionable. Then, too, people like Julia Child and her contributions to French Cuisine and so on would also seemingly be irrelevant. These people may be of Scottish origin, but what do these "other" contributions to other cuisines have to do with Scottish-American cuisine or actual Scottish-origin foods? By the way, author Kay Shaw Nelson mentions most of the points made in this article, which is in her book "The Art of Scottish-American Cooking." Although Nelson is not mentioned here, this Wikipedia article should be more concerned about foodstuffs and recipes than a list of high-profile personal achievements. For example, Nelson also mentions many of these people, but here's what's more noteworthy or relevant in a review of Nelson's book: "recipes including mulligatawny, cheddar cheese pie, Aberdeen Angus Whisky Steaks, salmon dip, split-pea soup, stovies," etc., as well as foods like "Macintosh apples... graham crackers and Angus beef." It's the brands and industrial makers that she also mentions that should not be of concern or mentioned, unless they specifically relate to Scottish Cuisine in America.Ca.papavero (talk) 23:25, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

No, because "Scottish American" isn't synonymous with "Scottish", and it can't be simplified that way, especially after four hundred years. Scottish migrants are distinctive in that they tend to mix as individuals with other cultural groups rather than forming ethnic or religious ghettos, so the emphasis on individual achievement is actually an aspect of their identity. The personal contributors didn't just "happen to be" Scottish American: the fact they were Scottish American made them likely to contribute to culinary history in this exact way. By all means, the section can be expanded by adding more cultural imports direct from Scotland, but it's also important to retain coverage of the traditional role of the Scots in America as cultural brokers between the mainstream and minorities. Lachrie (talk) 13:19, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Is the infobox picture serious?

Despite Reese Witherspoon's claim to the ancestry of the Scottish signer of the Declaration of Independence having been disproved, she is, at least, the great, great, great, great, great granddaughter of a Scot. A five-times great grandfather is hardly a claim to be a Scottish American! Does that mean that, because my n-times-great grandfather came from Africa, that I should be proud of my African-English heritage? No. 129.234.235.231 (talk) 18:37, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

25 million Scottish-Americans?

How is that possible when the US census say about 5 million people report Scottish ancestry? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.44.203.67 (talk) 20:40, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Correct. I've edited it. Shoreranger (talk) 16:56, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

To be added to places with Scottish names

Aberdeen, MS and Gretna, LA — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.118.195.1 (talk) 04:46, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

No Andrew Carnegie

So in the list of prominent Scottish Americans we have Reese Witherspoon but not Andrew Carnegie who was arguably one of the most important men in American history? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.136.93.102 (talk) 01:25, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Collage

I've removed the collage since it lacked some notable Scottish-Americans and added more prominent figures to the infobox. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 21:23, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

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Eisenhower?

President Dwight D. Eisenhower has no mention on the List of Scottish-American presidents. While Eisenhower was long acknowledged for his well-documented Pennsylvania-Dutch background, what is less known is that Eisenhower claimed at times during his life to have Scotch-Irish ancestry, most plausibly through his mother, Ida Elizabeth Eisenhower (née Stover) whose grandmother was Mary Stover (née Hannah). The surname Hannah (also spelt Hanna) is a Scottish surname, and a variant of Hannay, a Scottish Clan originating in Gaelic-speaking Galloway. Mary was born in Augusta County where there was significant Scotch-Irish settlement. JoeyofScotia (talk) 00:25, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

That's speculation based on non-RS. None of the cites provide any footnote or evidence. The editor assumes (based on an unsourced claim in Wikipedia) that only Scots use the surname "hanna". That is false: see Theodosios (Hanna) None of Ike's biographers make the claim so it's a fringe theory. the The American Genealogist - Volumes 54-55 - Page 213 (1978) says re ancestry: "Eisenhower's, exclusively Pennsylvania German." Rjensen (talk) 01:29, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

Exclusively Pennsylvania German? I don't buy it, he's a sixty-fourth English. Not only this, but through his English ancestors, he is a direct descendant of William the Conqueror, a Norman-French invader of England (Normans were a French ethnic-group of Norwegian-Viking descent, based in present-day Normandy). Also through his mother, Ida Stover, he has some German-Jewish lineage, as categorized in the Wikipedia article (Though I have no source for any Jewish bloodline). The name Hannah (it's not Hanna in this case) in the United States is almost always of Scottish-Gaelic origin. I have little doubt that, in this case it is. JoeyofScotia (talk) 23:26, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

Please don't argue with RS like The American Genealogist [it says "Eisenhower's, exclusively Pennsylvania German."] -- especially when you give very poor sources with a half sentence and no footnote. Note that "Hanna" was one of the most popular names for Pennsylvania Dutch women, says http://books.google.com/books?id=1l0sN5ubaeIC&pg=PA35. Rjensen (talk) 01:20, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

Ah, but this lists 'Hanna' (again, not Hannah) as a first name for people of Pennsylvania-Dutch women rather that a surname as discussed. I'm not giving up on the Scotch-Irish theory, I'm still looking into it. JoeyofScotia (talk) 14:00, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

The RS say nothing is known about her parents--no names, dates or places or kin. No source states she is Scottish or Irish or Gaelic. That's why the biographers of Ike reject speculation. Rjensen (talk) 20:34, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

Joey, what your doing is is called 'original research' on Wikipedia. Basically you've melded together unrelated factoids to produce an otherwise unpublished factoid. It's not allowed in Wikipedia articles. All we're allowed to do is follow what reliable sources say: if none of them specifically state that the woman is of Scottish ancestry then we can't either. Anyway, according to the Dictionary of American Family Names published by Oxford University Press, the surname Hanna has multiple origins - one of which is German [1].--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 22:26, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

Not relevant to anything Socts-Irish, but "Ancestors of American Presidents"(Gary B. Roberts, 1996) shows the parents of Abraham Stover (Ike's great-great-great grandfather) to be a Jacob Stover (likely the child of German or Dutch settlers) and a Sarah Boone, an Englishwoman from the English West-Country. Sarah's parents were George Boone III and Mary Maugridge. 'Boone' is an English (and rarely Scottish) surname relating to the location in France named 'Bohun'. 'Maugridge', is a now-extinct surname, seemingly of Welsh origin. I'd imagine the first element is the Welsh mawr meaning 'large', and that the second is Welsh graig meaning 'crag'. 'Crag' is a Northern English word for 'rugged cliff', a borrowed word from Gaelic or Welsh. Also in the "Ancestors of American Presidents", is a mention of the aforementioned Mary Hannah. It says "Mary Hannah lived c. 1781-1852. In 30 March 1803 she married Daniel Stover Jr. Daniel was born c. 1780 in Augusta Co., Va and died 18 Jan 1862 there. It is known that there was a Scots Irish settlement there and several Hanna/h families but with a name as common as Mary-----". A newspaper article from St. Patrick's Day 1953 says that 'genealogical experts have found a 'trace' of Irish on his mother's (Ida Stover) side of the family'. JoeyofScotia (talk) 23:40, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

References