Talk:Scapular of Our Lady of Mount Carmel

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More Work Required[edit]

As I have learned it, there is more to wearing the Brown Scapular and meriting from it than simply wearing it. There are certain stipulations. For example, in order for the Promise to be fulfilled, the wearer must also (according to what I have learned) say the Little Office of the Blessed Mother every day of the wearer's life. [1]

No, that's not true. According to the Carmelite Order, you must wear the scapular (although you can put it aside for a short time, as for bathing) and pray the prayer named when you received the scapular. Today, most priests advise you to pray 3 Hail Marys every day, a decade of the rosary or if you can, a 5-decade rosary. It is pretty much the same as with penances given after confession, to a high degree it depends on local traditions and the priest himself. If your priest didn't ask you to say a special prayer, then you may choose your own.

However, it was once the custom, that you had to recite the Little Office in order to "get" the Sabbatine Privilege. Those who were illiterate (there shouldn't be so many today anymore) had to abstain from flesh meat on Wednesdays, Fridays and Saturdays. The Sabbatine privilege is debated today, but still taught by the Carmelite Order. According to them, you must wear the scapular, pray you scapular prayer daily, observe the fasts of the church (Good Friday, Ash Wednesday and all the other days according to you local diocese) and chastity according to your state and nothing more. http://www.ocarm.org/eng/articles/signeng.htm http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/brown_scapular.htm -- Prorokini 14:25, 22 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Carmelites (Discalced and Ancient Observance friars of North America together) state in their Ritual and Catechesis book about the Brown Scapular that "Historical research has shown that the alleged fourteenth-century appearance of the Blessed Mother to Pope John XXII is without historical foundation. As a matter of fact, in the year 1613 the Holy See determined that the decree establishing the “Sabbatine Privilege” was unfounded and the Church admonished the Carmelite Order not to preach this doctrine. Unfortunately, the Order did not always comply with this directive of the Holy See." That can be read here: http://carmelitanacollection.com/catechesis.html <- I highly encourage anyone who wants to edit this page to peruse this information first! another page of information, on the Order of Carmelites website, also clearly does not promote belief in the Sabbatine privilege http://www.ocarm.org/pls/ocarm/consultazione.mostra_pagina?rifi=guest&rifp=guest&id_pagina=520 etc etc, very clearly the Carmelites have updated their interpretation of the brown scapular and the article should describe both historical and current teaching in a neutral fashion. I edited this article a little severely to reflect this and the probable non-historicity of the Simon Stock vision and because this emphasis is likely to be controversial I wish to apologize if this offends anyone. This article undoubtedly needs further work to increase the quality and the neutrality and reflect both the historical realities, and the devotional realities and theological aspects. Elizdelphi (talk) 03:55, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV[edit]

The NPOV of the sections "Privileges Obtained by Wearing the Scapular" and "Appearance" is really not neutral at all. In particular, the former seems more like a rebuttal to an argument rather than an encyclopedia article. This passage in particular--"It cannot be presumed that every horrible deed can be committed and the culprit will be saved without being repentant of such crimes. Such blatant malice against Our Lady's promise will force God to defend His Mother's honor. Unless such persons change their ways, they will NOT die wearing the Brown Scapular, which is argued by Blessed Claude, further proved by a recent well known true story."--presumes too much and cites too little. A statement like this might be appropriate on the Talk page, but not the article itself. 68.155.19.168 14:12, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think I fixed that. The information concerning the Sabbatine Privilege is from: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13289b.htm I don't know any source to confirm the statement made by Blessed Claude de la Colombière. but it sounds like him. -- Prorokini 14:11, 22 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV in the "Origins" section[edit]

I flagged the Origins section as Not Verified. It begins by asserting that "The Blessed Virgin appeared to St. Simon Stock", but did not cite the verifiable evidence for this claim. Ubarfay 06:41, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

More NPOV[edit]

On re-reading the summary of this article, no evidence is cited for the assertion that this particular artifact is "by far the best known, most celebrated, and most widespread of the small scapulars". Ubarfay 06:50, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Edits[edit]

I have taken the liberty of making some extensive edits with more information, for instance about historical questions that have arisen as historical evidence has come into conflict with traditional beliefs about the Brown Scapular, and new references and links to support the ways I have changed the article, as well as removing some content that seemed redundant etc. Generally I have tried to bring it more in line with what the Carmelites themselves say about the Brown Scapular today. I wear the Brown Scapular myself so if my edits do not seem neutral to others, maybe you will help to make them so. Elizdelphi (talk) 23:21, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

An unsigned user 119.93.254.219 edited the article August 9 2009 to remove some information about the status of the Sabbatine Privilege and the alleged Papal Bull associated with it. The user wrote: "Historical research makes the Bull's authenticity doubtful, and in 1613, the Holy See issued a decree that referred to Mary's special protection on Saturdays without mentioning the Bull or its contents ref[2]/ref." I undid the edit because based on my best information, it's incorrect. The 1613 decree did actually ask the Carmelites not to preach the content of the alleged Papal Bull, although the Bull might not have been referred to directly (I am not sure), its contents were clearly enough rebuked. The user 119.93.254.219 included a reference to an article on catholicculture.org, which is undated, but based on the footnotes appears to be from the late 1950s, or early 60s at latest, and although it would probably have been a good article in its time, does not reflect the Order's current statements or the more recent scholarship. The reference I gave is exactly to the booklet that contains the Order's 2000 pastoral statement about this matter, which states: "Historical research has shown that the alleged fourteenth-century appearance of the Blessed Mother to Pope John XXII is without historical foundation. As a matter of fact, in the year 1613 the Holy See determined that the decree establishing the "Sabbatine Privilege" was unfounded and the Church admonished the Carmelite Order not to preach this doctrine. Unfortunately, the Order did not always comply with this directive of the Holy See." Again, this is what the O.Carm and OCD Carmelite Provincials of North America say about this, and the booklet has the ecclesiastical approvals nihil obstat and imprimatur. --Elizdelphi (talk) 21:43, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Discalced Carmelite nuns from Argentina wearing the Brown Scapular[edit]

They're wearing brown scapulars but you can't see if they're also wearing the brown scapular. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.147.138.41 (talk) 15:41, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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