Talk:SS John Sherman

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Former good articleSS John Sherman was one of the Engineering and technology good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
May 20, 2020Good article nomineeListed
December 3, 2022Good article reassessmentDelisted
Did You Know
A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on August 5, 2017.
The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that cargo had to be loaded and unloaded by hand onto the SS John Sherman, the first freight ship used on Lake Michigan?
Current status: Delisted good article


GA Review[edit]

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Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:SS John Sherman/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Hog Farm (talk · contribs) 00:02, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Criteria[edit]

1. Prose  On hold

2. Verifiability  On hold

3. Depth of Coverage  On hold

4. Neutral ✓ Pass

5. Stable ✓ Pass

6. Illustrations ✓ Pass

7. Miscellaneous ✓ Pass

Comments[edit]

1.

  • " Chesapeake and Ohio railroad" - My gut instinct is that Railroad should be capitalized and part of the link, as it's part of the name of the railway
  • Sheboygan is a duplink
  • " In 1879 she was made into a barge" - Comma after 1879
  • "Her engines first went to Alaska and then later to Frank E. Kirby" - Is this after the barge conversion or after she was scrapped?

2.

  • The quote for ref 18 is unrelated to the statement it's supporting, it can likely be removed
  • What's the provenance of carferries.com? It looks a touch like a personal website. I'm unfamiliar with it's history, is this an RS?
  • Ref 13 via newspapers.com
  • For the long refs for the sources, spell out the acronyms, these acronyms aren't instantly identifiable with an organization for most readers.
  • See if there's OCLCs for any of the refs, worldcat is super helpful. For the sources that are from periodicals, see if the periodical has an ISSN.

3.

  • What's the etymology of the ship's name? I'm assuming maybe John Sherman, but if known, it should be included.
  •  Done - researched and not known for sure. No reference for that.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 12:26, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The craft was then rebuilt in 1877 as a passenger steamer operating out of Detroit. In 1879 she was made into a barge and served that purpose until 1893" - You never explicitly state the fate of the vessel.
  •  Done

4.

5.

6.

7.

Placing on hold, I'll give it another look through after these are addressed. Hog Farm (talk) 00:49, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments on article - proposed edits[edit]

When reading this article I noticed the following:

  • There is nothing in this article about where the ship came from or who owned it. Just that it was already in use in 1873.
  • The article talks about the ship (or route as it is unclear) being discontinued after a single season in 1875 but the replacement was built in 1882.
  • The first and last paragraphs in the History section are about the railroad fleets rather than the ship that was contracted for a single year.
  • The genealogy link to the C&O ferry service is a little weak.

I plan on pruning the page to address some of these issues and then submit it for a GAR. Comments or objections gladly welcomed. Gusfriend (talk) 11:05, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It is also worth noting that the DYK hook used for this article called it the first freight ship used on Lake Michigan which is not supported in the article as all the references say is that it was the first ship chartered by Pere Marquette Railroad which eventually became C&O. Gusfriend (talk) 11:11, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I have pruned the sections that related to the PMR and C&O.Gusfriend (talk) 10:14, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Doug Coldwell: can you tell me why you reverted my edits on this article? Expanding on what I previously wrote above,
  • How are the facts about the development of the train line to Ludington relevant to the ferry given that it was only leased by the railroad for a single season and was already serving the area before the ship was contracted?
  • Isn't the information about the formation of Ludington and the railway heritage already covered at the Ludington, Michigan and Flint and Pere Marquette Railroad? If not, that is where it should be presented.
  • Given the ship was only chartered for a year in 1875 and discontinued as not suitable but the F&PM ferries were built in 1882 it would be more correct to call them the start of what became the C&O fleet?
  • The article also says that it was the first of the ferries used by PMR but the PMR was not founded until 1899.
  • The more general information about the carferry fleet, etc. would be better placed on the pages Flint and Pere Marquette Railroad, Pere Marquette Railway and possibly the Chesapeake and Ohio Railway.
  • You may also wish to read the GA comments below. Gusfriend (talk) 06:57, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • To sum up all the above questions I believed they have been answered by the fact that the article was promoted to Good Article on 20 May 2020 by User:Hog Farm, so the Good Article reviewer felt they were correct the way the article was written at the time. User:Hog Farm has several Good Articles and Featured Articles. He does GA reviews on a regular basis, so would know what is correct for a Good Article and that it meets the criteria for a Good Article. A lot of your questions are answered in the news clip no. 2. Do you have a subscription to Newspapers.com? If not, you can get one at the Wikipedia Library. A lot of your questions are also answered by the book Ludington Carferries which I got at my local library. Maybe if you can give me the sentence and reference that you don't think is correct I can get you the wording of the reference for that. I don't see in the article where I wrote that the PMR was founded in 1899 -> can you tell me where that is at? I did write that the railroad company received a land grant in 1857 to build a railroad for the United States government. By 1859 they were considering a ferry service across Lake Michigan and set up a terminus at the village of Pere Marquette. The railroad company was already in existence when it leased the SS John Sherman from the ship owners in 1874. In 1875 the railroad company initiated a public commercial package freight service across Lake Michigan. True, the SS John Sherman was already servicing the Ludington area before the railroad leased it and is the reason the railroad company considered leasing that ship to initiate a ferry service for them across Lake Michigan that they desired to do by 1859. The railroad company had received the portion of their "Pere Marquette" name from the local village by that name when they set up a terminus there. The village later in 1873 was called Ludington. Before the railroad company leased the ship it was called just the Flint Railroad. --Doug Coldwell (talk) 09:01, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    See Flint and Pere Marquette Railroad which you have edited which says that it was in operation between 1857 and 1899 and Pere Marquette Railway which says that it started in 1899.Gusfriend (talk) 09:14, 12 October 2022 (UTC) True. The next sentence says It was one of the three companies which merged to become the Pere Marquette Railway. "IT" in this case is Flint and Pere Marquette Railroad. --Doug Coldwell (talk) 10:06, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    The second reference says nominally at least to refer to the link between the John Sherman and the later F&PMR, PMR and C&O railroads which, given it is from 1941 leads me to think that presenting it as fact may be doing our readers a disservice especially as all of the other newspaper articles that I looked at all seem to talk of the importance of the later F&PMR #1 and #2 in terms of the future fleet and not the John Sherman.
  • All the newspaper articles I looked at about the John Sherman indicated to me it was the slow privately owned side-wheeled steamer John Sherman that initiated the C & O Lake Michigan fleet.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 10:33, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I believe that there are excellent resources for a stand alone page on all of the Pere M. ships which could include all of the information here that does not directly relate to the John Sherman. Gusfriend (talk) 09:59, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

GA Reassessment[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
As there are now references supporting the fact that the ship was initially the USRC Sherman there is a significant history missing and some history in the article is being given undue weight. Consequently this Good Article has been delisted. Gusfriend (talk) 01:41, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This discussion is transcluded from Talk:SS John Sherman/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the reassessment.

I have recently edited the page to remove a large amount of content that was only peripherally related to the ship itself. Because of the significant change since the article was promoted to GA status I believe that it should be re-examined and then delisted. The article is also missing important information about the ship including when it was built, passenger capacity, cargo capacity, etc. It may be appropriate for it to be elevated to GA in future but it is not there now.Gusfriend (talk) 06:42, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Hog Farm: should be given the opportunity to consider the reassessment. I would just state that it would be useful to include the information you allude to above, but if suitable sources are not available it may not be possible. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 15:34, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'll take a look at some point soon. I'd only been reviewing GAs for a couple months when I reviewed this one, so I could well have missed something. @Gusfriend: - I've personally written articles on 19th century ships before, and the information you allude to often doesn't exist. See for instance, USS Maria J. Carlton, CSS Baltic, and USS Sidney C. Jones, all of whom are military ships with former civilian trade usage that is largely unknown. Hog Farm Talk 15:41, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
HF comments
  • "The ship commander was Captain John W. Steward" - source just says Capt. Steward, not seeing where his full name is in there.
  •  Done Replaced reference with website that verifies full name.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 08:20, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "It shuttled packaged freight, grain, and people across Lake Michigan between Ludington and Sheboygan, Wisconsin" - source mentions a route between Ludington and Manitowoc, but not seeing where Sheboygan is mentioned? Also no apparent reference to hauling people, although the newspaper text was small enough I had to squint pretty bad so I could have missed it.
  •  Done Replaced news clip with Hilton reference. Book reference says, "John Sherman to run to Sheboygan, Wisconsin, to connect with the Sheboygan & Fond du Lac Railway. The railroad was apparently interested mainly in eastbound grain movements, but the steamer also handled passengers and general cargo."

I can't access most of the sourcing, although it looks like I dropped the ball a bit in my review. A few quick searches are not bringing up any information about the lacking details, but I admittedly don't really know where to look for such things for Great Lakes freighters. Hog Farm Talk 22:34, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In the reference Pictorial History of the C & O Train and Auto Ferries and Pere Marquette Line Steamers it appears to say (from the excerpt that I can read on page 4) that it was a former US Revenue Cutter and the timeframe matches the section United States Revenue Cutter Service#Post–Civil War operations. It also appears to say on page 69 that John Sherman was 175' x 28'5 and was built in Cleveland, OH in 1865. That might help with some of the history information.
On page 4 it says between Luddington and various Wisconsin ports.
On page 4 the snippet that I can read also says that the Sherman was rebuilt at Detroit but not that it operated out of there although that may be somewhere else on the page.Gusfriend (talk) 05:58, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I suspect that the SS John Sherman is the USCGC Sherman as the dates roughly line up. See [1], [2] [3] and some nice NYTimes information on the building of the Revenue Cutter at [4] where it is called the fastest craft on lake Eire and I suspect that there are other interesting items in their history. I suspect that there are amazing records at [5] that would take some serious digging out. Eventually scanned information including logbooks will be available at [6]. There is probably also good information in the book King, Irving H. (1989). The Coast Guard under sail : the U.S. Revenue Cutter Service, 1789-1865. Annapolis, Md.: Naval Institute Press. ISBN 0-87021-234-6. OCLC 19981299.. Gusfriend (talk) 08:10, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Well, we'll still need to find a source that explicitly ties them together. Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/James Armstrong (Georgia politician)/1 is a cautionary tale of what happens when you assume that "same time frame, same name" means that the two are the same. Hog Farm Talk 14:39, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The periodical Telescope published by the Great Lakes Maritime Institute in 1962 (see [7]) has that the revenue cutter John Sherman was commissioned the John Sherman after service and engines later went to Alaska and Kirby. The 1872 Revenue annual report has some interesting reading ([8]) including the fact that the Sherman was disposed of as it was in worse condition than the others. The list of merchant vessels of the US in 1878 at ([9]) matches up except telescope says 75804 v. 75408 which makes me think of a Telescope error. Gusfriend (talk) 06:12, 14 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
So it looks like it matches, based on Telescope vs. Frederickson. @Doug Coldwell: - Do you still have access to Frederickson to see what Frederickson says? It's possible Frederickson may contain more information that'll help tie this together too. The history section should be fixable. Hog Farm Talk 13:44, 14 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I suspect that there are also newspaper reports about the sale of the cutter in Cleveland during the 1871-1872 period, possibly in the Cleveland press but I wasn't having much luck finding it. Gusfriend (talk) 23:18, 14 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • No rush! This can wait for ILL to work its magic. Hog Farm Talk 15:04, 14 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Hog Farm: I have the Frederickson book in front of me now and I don't see anything other than what I have written in the article. I corrected the article to show that When she was converted into a barge her engines were first used in the boat Alaska and then in 1890 into the boat Frank E. Kirby. This information is on page 4. On page 5 it does talk about the JOHN SHERMAN being too small for the amount of freight traffic and so in 1876 the F. & P.M.R.R. chartered ships from the Goodrich Line to carry this freight. That's all I have. That's all there is. There is nothing about a USCGC Sherman. --Doug Coldwell (talk) 19:12, 21 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    The exact date of sale of the USCGC Sherman in Cleveland is June 25, 1872 per [10] so a newspaper around that date may be able to help. Gusfriend (talk) 22:48, 21 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I see that in the PDF, however I don't see any connection of a USCGC Sherman to the SS John Sherman in any book or website I have come across. As you can see I used several books for research and none mentioned a USCGC Sherman. The way I understand it is that SS John Sherman was a privately owned side-wheel steamboat and already a ferry service across Lake Michigan in 1873. The railroad company hired the cross-lake ferry service from Ludington to Sheboygan, Wisconsin, on June 25, 1874. Searching Newspapers.com under "USCGC Sherman" and they all talk about a modern ship of the late twentieth century on 48 matches. There are no matches for the nineteenth century.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 10:09, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    It may be called a "revenue cutter" or "USRC Sherman". There seems to be a mix of ways that it is referred to. When I looked at the The Plain Dealer there were references to what the Sherman has been doing. I wonder if the simplest approach is to expand the USCGC Sherman page and then add a note to both talk pages that it is possible that they are linked and it needs confirmation. Gusfriend (talk) 12:05, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • This proves that the 1872 USCGC Sherman at Cleveland can not be the SS John Sherman. The SS John Sherman was traveling across Lake Michigan in 1873 from its home port of Ludington. In order for the SS John Sherman to get to Cleveland it would have to travel to the top of Lake Michigan and then from the Straits of Mackinac all the way down Lake Huron. This distance is over 600 miles and would have taken weeks if not months to travel.. The SS John Sherman was built to travel across Lake Michigan, a distance of 118 miles. Not only could the SS John Sherman not be capable of traveling the 600 miles from Cleveland to Ludington, there would be no reason for the SS John Sherman to be in Cleveland in 1872. In 1872 it was busy traveling from Ludington, Michigan, to Sheboygan, Wisconsin, carrying people and freight. It was already a busy ferry service across Lake Michigan in 1873. This is why the F. & P.M.R.R. hired its service in 1874. because it was capable of carrying freight across Lake Michigan and had established itself as a freighter across Lake Michigan out of Ludington. There is no connection of the SS John Sherman with Cleveland. That makes no sense whatsoever. The 1872 USCGC Sherman of Cleveland is NOT the 1873 SS John Sherman of Ludington, Michigan.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 12:21, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    The article, supported by a reference, says that the SS John Sherman was built in Cleveland so it was capable of traveling from there to Ludington. Gusfriend (talk) 12:28, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep in mind that the railroad company hired the cross-lake ferry service from Ludington to Sheboygan, Wisconsin, on June 25, 1874. They then initiated a public commercial package freight service across Lake Michigan on May 31, 1875. In '"Marine Review" journal it says, Mr. Fitzpatrick resided in Buffalo until 1861 and then went to Detroit to take charge of the E. B. Ward line of steamers . In 1865 he moved to Cleveland , having been appointed chief engineer of the United States revenue steamer John Sherman. Keep in mind that Fitzpatrick was with the USCGC Sherman of Cleveland until 1871. This proves that they are two different ships. No connection between the two.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 12:51, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep in mind that the USCGC Sherman was a large US government ship that carried freight from 1865 to at least 1871 out of Cleveland. The SS John Sherman was a small ship that only carried freight for one season in 1875 and had to be replaced with other ships because it was too small to carry the railroad freight. The railroad at first leased ships from the Goodrich Lines. Then in 1882 the F&PM railroad company had built two wooden freighters to replace the SS John Sherman. They were numbered F&PM #1 and F&PM #2. From my research on E. B. Ward it showed he built large freighter ships. In my research for creating the article on E B Ward I never came across a SS John Sherman ship out of Ludington. No doubt that these are two different ships - no connection between the two. The USCGC Sherman (1865) established itself as a freighter out of Cleveland, while the SS John Sherman (1873) established itself as a freighter across Lake Michigan. Two different ships altogether. One is a very large ship and the other a small ship. They are not connected to each other.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 13:58, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The USCGC Sherman was 488 tons and cruised the waters of Lake Erie. Being this large it would have been easy for it to carry the freight of the F. & P.M. railroad across Lake Michigan for years. However the SS John Sherman (1873), cruising Lake Michigan, carried the railroad freight for only one season in 1875 because it was so small. It was only 175 feet long by 28.5 feet wide. The USCGC Sherman was huge and gigantic, while the SS John Sherman was small and tiny. Descriptions of two different ships.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 15:20, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The USCGC Sherman was with a group of side-propeller (twin-screw) U.S. Revenue Cutters that included the Commodore Perry, Andrew Johnson, John A. Dix, and the first Fessenden that were still servicing the Great Lakes in 1884. In 1879, the SS John Sherman (1873) was made into a barge and served that purpose until 1893 and then scrapped. Two different life histories - two different ships altogether.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 15:37, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree with Doug here. There's no conclusive evidence these are the same thing, so we can't include that information in the article. I don't think there's any completeness issues here. Hog Farm Talk 19:35, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I think that I have something here:
    • I found the Gerald C. Metzler Great Lakes Vessel Database at the Wisconsin Maritime Museum. When you search for Sherman you get the link between the two.. In particular:
      • Vessel type is Steamer (Sidewheel) (1865-1879); Barge (1879-1881); Schooner (1881-1893); which matches.
      • Owner -> United States Revenue Cutter Service, (1865-1872)
      • Official number - * U.S.- 75408 * Undocumented, (1865-1872)", i.e. The ship was given the registration number in 1872 after it was no longer owned by the USRCS.
      • VESSEL REMARKS -> United States Revenue Cutter Service, (1865-1872) and Engines were placed in the ""Alaska"", and later into ""Frank E. Kirgy;
      • Built in Cleveland in 1965.
    • I got there from the Historical Collections of the Great Lakes at [Bowling Green State University https://www.bgsu.edu/library/]. In particular the Sherman page which has both the USRCS and SS Sherman on it. This is sourced to, amongst other places, the Great Lakes Vessel Database. The links page has a bunch of interesting links.
    As an aside, in response to the paragraphs above, the USRC John Sherman and the SS John Sherman are the same size (see [11]). Also whilst the USRC Sherman was part a collection side wheelers, if you look at page 3 of the annual review you will see that the USRC had cutters that were excess to requirements which is why they sold the Sherman. Gusfriend (talk) 02:12, 23 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Note also that this reference [12] says that it was beached, etc. in 1906. Gusfriend (talk) 02:48, 8 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Gusfriend: Apparently what you are looking for is when the SS John Sherman was built, passenger capacity, and cargo capacity. From all these sources you have come across none of that information is available, unless I missed it. If you type in Google "Revenue Marine" 1872 the first result is https://media.defense.gov - 1872 U.S. Revenue Marine Service Annual Report. This PDF shows the John Sherman at 488 tons, headquartered at Cleveland, and cruising grounds in the waters of Lake Erie. I know that the SS John Sherman I wrote about was cruising in the waters of Lake Michigan in 1873 (probably before). I get the feeling that this SS John Sherman was considerable smaller than 488 tons as it only carried freight for 1 year in 1875 because it was too small. I believe this to be two different ships. There is nothing more I can add to the SS John Sherman article, because there is nothing more available in any sources. The article is as complete as I can make it based on the sources available.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 18:26, 23 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]


Link between USRC John Sherman and SS John Sherman[edit]

In addition to the information provided above:

  • "John Sherman (Cutter)". Detroit Free Press. 2 April 1874. Retrieved 8 November 2022 – via The Maritime History of the Great Lakes.
  • "John Sherman (Steamboat)". Detroit Advertiser & Tribune. 22 March 1873. Retrieved 8 November 2022 – via The Maritime History of the Great Lakes.
  • "John Sherman (Barge)". The Saginaw Courier. 24 April 1886. Retrieved 8 November 2022 – via The Maritime History of the Great Lakes.

With 3 separate newspapers from the time stating the link combined with the information presented above I believe that there are sufficient sources to say that they are the same ship. Gusfriend (talk) 02:46, 8 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

DYK discussion[edit]

  • To answer your second part about the Did You Know - User:Cwmhiraeth found three sources in the article that verified that cargo had to be loaded and unloaded by hand onto the SS John Sherman, the first freight ship used on Lake Michigan. She then approved the DYK nomination.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 10:17, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    If the ship was the first freight ship on Lake Michigan and that is supported by references then it should be added to the article.Gusfriend (talk) 10:21, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The three sources User:Cwmhiraeth found are reference numbers 3, 16, 17. She approved the DYK nomination on these. See Template for the DYK nomination.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 10:41, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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