Talk:Robert Klitgaard

Just a start

The entry will need copy editing as well as additional information. Zoli Elo 08:25, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Some proposed changes

Request:

An update to the professional/biographical information for one of our university professors, Robert Klitgaard. The suggested new material below is given with supporting links/citations supplied after each paragraph.

I am employed by the university where Klitgaard teaches.

Reasons for request:

In the entry as it now appears, the subject's most recent accomplishments are his presidential term, which ended in 2009, and a book published in 2013. The material provided below is proposed to update and also to provide more focus on his scholarly work over his entire career as well as in the past seven years. There is some background material about his scholarship that I've tried to introduce below that sheds light on his specific focus on corruption and that dates to his Harvard years.

A note at the top of the entry also highlights the need for better citation. These citations are also provided below.

Thank you in advance for your help -- whatever you decide will be much appreciated.

• Comment@CGU1925:Thank you for your patience in waiting for a response. I have posted my responses below each section. I have already added material I think should be included and provided a rationale on the sections I have declined to add. Z1720 (talk) 02:31, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Proposed new material:

Top of entry/first paragraph:

Please consider replacing the current opening with the following:

Robert Klitgaard is an American academic, former university president, and author of the books Controlling Corruption (1988) and Tropical Gangsters (1990), which contributed to a worldwide movement against corruption. His combination of case studies and analytical frameworks is demonstrated in this book and his other books, including Choosing Elites (1985), Elitism and Meritocracy in Developing Countries (1986), Adjusting to Reality: Beyond ‘State vs. Market’ in International Development (1991), Corrupt Cities (2000), and Addressing Corruption Together (2015).

CITATION FOR ABOVE GRAF: https://www.cgu.edu/people/robert-klitgaard/

• Declined The WP:LEDE serves as a summary of the article. Some of the information you want to delete from the lede are summarising his career, so I believe it belongs in the lede. Z1720 (talk) 02:31, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Early Life section

It currently reads:

Klitgaard received A.B., M.P.P., and Ph.D. degrees from Harvard University.

In addition, please add the following:

Born in New York City in 1947, he is the son of Robert M. Klitgaard, who the Silver Star and the Distinguished Flying Cross as a pilot in World War II. His paternal grandfather, Carl E. Klitgaard, was a Danish immigrant who was knighted by the Danish king for his service to Danes in California and later was an executive with Standard Oil of New Jersey. His mother, Mildred Sykes Klitgaard, was a championship tennis player and later a full-time homemaker. His paternal grandfather, Emery Howe Sykes, was an All-American football player at Bowdoin and Columbia and a partner with the Wall Street law firm Sullivan & Cromwell.

CITATIONS FOR ABOVE GRAF:

on father Robert M. Klitgaard: https://www.legacy.com/obituaries/statesmanjournal/obituary.aspx?n=robert-klitgaard&pid=173380733&fhid=7982

on Carl Klitgaard: https://www.legacy.com/obituaries/eastbaytimes/obituary.aspx?n=ellen-campbell-billie&pid=174103713&fhid=2388

on Mildred Sykes Klitgaard: https://www.nytimes.com/1945/08/27/archives/mildred-sykes-engaged-bradford-alumna-brideelect-of-lieut-robert-m.html

• Declined. Obituaries and announcements in newspapers are not WP:RS as we cannot determine who wrote the pieces. Z1720 (talk) 02:31, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Career section

Please stet but move information about his tenure as CGU president (now currently the lead-off on the item) here

• Added. Information in the lede should be in the article. The source was a broken link, so I have found a better source for it. Z1720 (talk) 02:31, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Controversy

WOULD IT BE POSSIBLE TO ADD A SECTION UNDER THIS HEADING OR SOMETHING ELSE? PLEASE SEE CONTENT AND CITATIONS FOR CONSIDERATION

In 1980, while a special assistant to Harvard’s president, he wrote an internal report on admissions with a small section stating that standardized test scores tend to overestimate the future academic performance of female and minority students. The document was leaked to the campus newspaper and proved disruptive enough to the campus community that President Derek Bok publicly announced it had “no official standing.” In 1986 a review of Klitgaard's Choosing Elites in the Harvard Crimson said, “His conclusions are not the irresponsible ruminations of a racist—but rather an honest effort to bring policy analysis to bear on one of today's most perplexing social issues… His purpose, again, is not normative, but rather to set out such a policy's costs and benefits. He is extremely sensitive to the correct benefits of affirmative action—in terms of educational diversity and creating incentives for disadvantaged groups.”

• Declined. The first part of this paragraph is a WP:CV of the NYT article cited, so cannot be included. However, I have read through the source and added information I think is relevant to the article. The second part of the article is a review from the Harvard Crimson. WP:RSSM states, student newspapers "...can sometimes be considered reliable on other topics, although professional sources are typically preferred when available." Since there are professional reviews of the book (like the NYT review cited) I have also declined the second half. Z1720 (talk) 02:31, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Klitgaard has been called an influence behind China’s controversial anti-corruption policies under President Xi. But he has repudiated the control mentality of Chinese reforms, conveying a message of less repression and more learning from successes within China.

CITATIONS FOR ABOVE TWO GRAFS:

Harvard President Bok's comment on "no official standing": https://www.nytimes.com/1985/05/05/books/lucking-into-harvard.html

Quote from Harvard Crimson review: Michael J. Abramowitz, “Selecting the Best and the Brightest,” Harvard Crimson, 5 June 1985. https://www.thecrimson.com/article/1985/6/5/selecting-the-best-and-the-brightest/

Inspiration for China anti-corruption policies: “Interview with Robert Klitgaard, an international anti-corruption think tank: Engaging citizens and businesses in diagnosing local corruption systems.” 专访国际反腐智囊Robert Klitgaard 让公民和商界参与诊断地方的腐败体系(图), 21st Century Business Herald, 19 February 2013 http://roll.sohu.com/20130324/n370042755.shtml; Frank Vogl, “China’s Battle Against Corruption Gets Serious.” The Globalist, 30 July 2014. https://www.theglobalist.com/chinas-battle-against-corruption-gets-serious/

Repudiation of control mentality of Chinese reforms: https://www.scmp.com/comment/insight-opinion/article/2051133/china-should-champion-its-anti-corruption-success-stories

• Declined. The wording here is WP:PUFFERY and the sources cannot confirm the information, so I cannot include this section. The roll.sohu is an interview which is WP:PRIMARY and since it is published in Mandarin it is hard for me to confirm the information. I will not object to a Mandarin-speaking editor using the source in the future to add the information as they see fit. The Globalist source suspects that Xi is using Klitgaard as a reference, but doesn't confirm it. The SCMP source is an opinion piece written by Klitgaard, so it does not pass WP:RS. Z1720 (talk) 02:31, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Personal life

He is married to Elaine Van Biljon Klitgaard, originally from South Africa, a former activist and a finalist for Miss South Africa. They four children and three grandchildren.

CITATION FOR ABOVE GRAF:

family information in this section comes from the following university profile: “A Global Vision: President Robert Klitgaard Brings a World of Experience to CGU,” The Flame, Fall 2005, pp. 10-15. http://www.cgu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Fall2005.pdf

• Declined. The article is about Robert, not Elaine, and thus I do not want to add the first sentence. However, I have added information on how the couple met, as that is directly related to Robert. For the second sentence, I could not find references to grandchildren in the cgu source. What page is that information on? Z1720 (talk) 02:31, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

CGU1925 (talk) 18:12, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

• Comment I am going to mark this request as "replied" since I have addressed each section. If you believe I made a mistake or have any questions, please message me on my talkpage or open a new request. Thanks! Z1720 (talk) 02:31, 27 October 2020 (UTC)